what are jeremy corbyn's flaws?

we must be vigilant

Won’t wear an American flag pin ffs

doesn't harbour desires to nuke some pillock from Iran.

didn't he say imagine was his favourite song, criminal stuff

failed to gee anyone here up enough to start this thread 5 years ago

- too willing to overlook indiscretions from those who are loyal
- too timid on eg sackings, party democratisation
- loves cops
- doesn’t get scotland

he doesnt have to be very good to look very good considering whats around him but he does seem pretty good tbfttt

think thread might serve a useful purpose- not sure if the obama or aoc ones have the same intent tbh- where uh my beloved uk pol cru cannot rly bear suggestion that our bhoy- and he really is very very good- may not in fact be, and look it's an imperfect world and hes something to cling to its very understandable and he can't be all things to all men i mean its pretty astonishing hes achieved what he has done so far given the odds and powers stacked against him, perfect

and maybe a separate thread would be good, the main threads are maybe not the place to utter it or idk

Does politics well, leadership badly

xp yes , good

what is leadership

xp id have said that was unfair tbh ed

I thought there was another Corbyn thread but it's just that 'vs Angela Eagle' one from 15 years ago.

Sexual interest in manhole covers.

has not yet instituted full communism in the united kingdom

direct hit on the big man for sure

but he is trying, brexit has (momentarily, no doubt) thrown plans awry

- not likely to cultivate lucrative special relationship with top lads USA

has, tbf, already cultivated a special relationship with top lads ira

oh id never say he was without friends here and there alright

gooner.

as well have it out there.

That belongs on the flaws thread obv.

Oh, it is on the flaws thread.

- encourages football discussion on bizarro gazzara’s beloved ilx politics threads

he once did an awful ad hoc speech about good old fashioned rock music in the NW or something, was it in Tranmere or something? I can't remember - sometime during the 2017 campaign. I found it entirely embarrassing and insincere - but he is a dozy cunt at times and is alas only a pol - with all the limits that comes with etc...

Dozy cunt is a good description of him tbh.

lack of presence is the big one

but he is a dozy cunt at times and is alas only a pol - with all the limits that comes with etc...

― calzino, Monday, 19 August 2019 22:38 (five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

yeah i think this is a good lens, taking this into account and the general standard as i said hes kind of a miracle

but look thats not what this thread is for

he is def a dozy cxnt sometimes and can be liable to open mouth before engaging brain the democratic policy formation processes of the UK labour party - see e.g. calling for immediate triggering of A50 on the morning of the referendum

spose we're as well to note that he seems not to inspire the confidence of prospective coalition partners (including those in his own party) which bytimes is gonna be an issue

If the coalition partners weren't worthless arseholes that would be a fair criticism.

ah look we have to put something in her fer gawds sake the mans a saint

oh he hates the jews obv thats a mark against him

not john mcdonnell

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_UK_Labour_Party

thanks for bring the nuance and light mr Snrub, on what was otherwise a completely untapped archive!

But does he hate Jews as much as Ilhan Omar?

i dunno, how much does he hate her?

Corbyn's flaw is he's never going to be PM. He couldn't even beat May, universally recognised as the worst PM in living memory. Finally Labour has the right policies, but the wrong person to sell them.

He should get a young hot deputy to do all the public appearances and campaigning and just not make a big deal about who the party leader technically is

Corbyn's flaw is he's never going to be PM. He couldn't even beat May, universally recognised as the worst PM in living memory. Finally Labour has the right policies, but the wrong person to sell them.

tbf she had not yet established herself as such at the time

- is disliked by cultural titans eddie marsan and rachel r’lyeh riley

He couldn't even beat May, universally recognised as the worst PM in living memory.

I wouldn’t underestimate how well Corbyn’s unpolished, direct communication style goes down with people who are sick of typical politicians or to what extent a younger politician with the same policies but without Corbyn’s history would face a similar demonisation from the press and the right of the Labour Party.

In terms of flaws, it does sound like Corbyn’s team isn’t particularly interested in, or has given up attempting, the typical business of rapidly responding to press enquiries, trying to shape media narratives on the fly, etc. In some ways, that might be understandable but it gives journalists an additional excuse for not engaging fairly.

The failure to get rid of terrible politicians who are happy to work with him is a definite flaw. I know he has a small pool to select his cabinet from but there is no excuse for Nia Griffith still being there. Related to that, the attempt to outflank the Tories on law and order / police numbers is completely misguided.

I agree Corbyn did far better than he was expected to in 2017. But the job of opposition leader is not to win the game of expectations. It's to actually win! I mean I hope he can next time, but I doubt it and I imagine there are others who could do better with broadly the same suite of policies.

Beard.
This Great Nation hasn't had a PM with a full beard since The Most Honourable Robert Gascoyne-Cecil, 3rd Marquess of Salisbury in 1895:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Gascoyne-Cecil,_3rd_Marquess_of_Salisbury#/media/File:Robert_cecil.jpg

although there have been some fine moustaches in the interim years.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/3rd_Marquess_of_Salisbury.jpg

I imagine there are others who could do better with broadly the same suite of policies.
― Zelda Zonk, Tuesday, August 20, 2019 5:45 AM (twenty-nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

name one who could beat corbyn, never mind carry the country

I mean you obviously don’t? A percentage of the vote that would have won a majority in almost any other election and gaining seats and millions of voters are far more than “expectations”. Not really convinced about the argument that another leader would have done better on that platform and less so in the past two years. I look at the reception given to Laura Pidcock over basically anything she does, Rebecca Long-Bailey and Clive Lewis (esp over Grenfell) and it’s difficult to conclude a lot of the same attacks wouldn’t have been tried then. I also remember all the people being like “yeah he should have won” the morning after the election were people who would have been dying from pure rage if he actually had so yeah. Revisionism.

I wouldn’t underestimate how well Corbyn’s unpolished, direct communication style goes down with people who are sick of typical politicians

looking increasingly like RLB is being set up to succeed corbs (kudos to Matt DC for calling this early). think she'll get the crucial union backing. starmer & rayner prob the other best contenders. Abbott & McDonnell too old, pidcock & carden too young, Lewis & thornberry too unreliable, almost everyone else too right wing for the members (sorry sobez)

Labour focused so much on defence they missed out on several more seats they could have nicked with the resourcing there.

I'm not presenting it as a contradiction, but the same's true on the other side - there was a lot of gnashing of teeth from Conservative activists about being sent to campaign in seats that they ended up losing by two figures while marginals that they barely lost went without.

The conhome report from that year about how the election campaign went was a catalogue of falling about on their arses - Labour did do very well (and Corbyn should take a lot of credit), but the next one definitely won't be easy in the same way. And also we lost.

Back to Corbyn, I think some of his totemic appeal couldn't translate to a new younger leader - it's that he has been in the Commons for decades and has been voting the right way for that long. He's also very good at communicating that this is coming from a coherent ethos, that he's not just reading things off a piece of paper. Not to be the first to broach the B-word, but a side-effect is that when does attempt any more delicate dance, it stands out a mile - but like I say I think this is central to his appeal!

This thread is four years too late.

I'm not presenting it as a contradiction, but the same's true on the other side - there was a lot of gnashing of teeth from Conservative activists about being sent to campaign in seats that they ended up losing by two figures while marginals that they barely lost went without.

this was a good analysis (of the CON campaign) at the time
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39927866

he can’t seem to parse the LAB approach, presumably because he thinks they’ll get a doing

stephen bush’s analysis of why JC’s performance is even better than you think always worth a reread

xp Fair point!

Broadcasting, though, is a factor to consider in all this. ITV audiences in target seats may not notice exactly where he is. Mr Corbyn has been getting into the TV regions - and it is possible he is generating better pictures, addressing big crowds, by visiting safer Labour seats.

has MR seumas milne all over it

RLB seems to be being mentored by John McD which is by no means bad, but she’s not Corbyn’s own successor who he’d ideally be doing this for himself.

lmost everyone else too right wing for the members (sorry sobez)

... and evidence that his team do know how to play the media game, but just choose not to day to day (whether for good or bad)

has MR seumas milne all over it

Having said that:

He's also very good at communicating that this is coming from a coherent ethos, that he's not just reading things off a piece of paper. Not to be the first to broach the B-word, but a side-effect is that when does attempt any more delicate dance, it stands out a mile - but like I say I think this is central to his appeal!

This speaks to his main flaw (that hasn't been mentoned so far) as his inability to lie to the camera with any conviction.

And to what Zelda is saying is that I somewhat agree its highly unlikely he'd be PM but it would only be the latest in the highly unlikely set of things that have happened in the last few years.

yes - he is very bad at lying and frequently busks off the cuff when maybe he shouldn’t. this hasn’t been that big an issue because his political instincts are p good/in tune with members but in areas which require some triangulation (brexit) it can be an issue

- owns a cat

xps yeah think sobez wld be great in the cabinet. still think he'd make a decent leader in many respects but he's still v much in the open labour camp and doesn't seem interested atm.

I had forgotten about young mister Sobel, and read that, the first time, as a typo for Soubez - hilarity etc.

Being a cat-loving Gooner are not fucking flaws!!

this is a safe space

His main flaw is that he corbsplains.

Says shit like “ram-packed” and “pantomine”

apt enough for a man that thinks we should work for buttons

his brother

really had enough of that beige blazer

Seamus Milne, there's a doozy of a flaw right there.

I mean the Milnester affectionately calls George Galloway "chief". He should be gone already!

lol, I'd forgotten about Corbz foolish brother, in a probably much easier fashion than he ever can.

This thread is four years too late.

― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 20 August 2019 07:26 (two hours ago)

Extremely harsh to criticise Corbyn for this IMO.

Yes he is very bad at lots of the things you expect politicians to be good at - lying to the camera, triangulating, win-the-day stuff etc - but these are features not bugs. Or at least they would be if he didn't try and do them.

His main flaw is too much loyalty to the wrong people, and a mistaken belief that he's reliant on individuals who are a big part of the problem. Milne is definitely one of those.

He also needs to find a better way of responding to events like the Skripals, Iran/shipping etc. Appealing for calm and cool heads is the right thing to do but you have to do so in a way that doesn't make it very easy for opponents to spin as automatically siding with something nefarious. (Caveat, this is much easier said than done but he has a tendency to rush out a statement, disappear for days while the noise builds, and then put out a more considered article when the damage has been done).

When it comes to Corbyn I think it's the way his office communicates on various issues that has been the divide between various people that like what he represents to succeed.

Partly to do with memories of the way Blair used to be sharp as anything on this, even when evil. Like, what if really left and progressive...but we get the PR and management and shit like resourcing right too.

there has to be a way of improving the media response without returning to the Nu Labour style. usually when the Labour right are concern trolling about how much better things were done under Blair they conveniently ignore that that kind of slick management presentation is automatically distrusted by a lot of the electorate now

this isn't a fault specific to Corbyn the man but his leadership has failed to fully find its own approach to media beyond, for better or worse, social media

social media has largely been outsourced to momentum which has big problems

and this needs to happen more in the unglamorous work of restructuring the party in ways that the electorate mostly don't give a fuck about. a move away from "strong leader" FPTP bullshit and a move away from engaging in that bullshit would be of more lasting value to UK politics than a lot of short/mid term policy initiatives (that you still need to produce in order to compete in elections: not saying it's either/or)

xp yeah plax a lot of the social media makes me cringe but seems to be doing roughly its job atm?

i mean i would be all for crowdfunding the suppression of Another Angry Voice and all the other dorks

a move away from "strong leader" FPTP bullshit and a move away from engaging in that bullshit would be of more lasting value to UK politics than a lot of short/mid term policy initiatives (that you still need to produce in order to compete in elections: not saying it's either/or)

Yeah, completely, and some of the things I dislike are "on his watch" things which a lot of the media is keen to position as his personal flaws.

A question that came to me recently - a lot of the denouncements from people saying they couldn't serve in a GNU led by him called him, specifically, an anti-semite, which I think we'd all agree isn't one of his flaws? Why didn't he just sue the fuck out of them for libel?

how is being an antisemite not a flaw?

because he isn't one

Ehhh idk about that, I’m broadly sympathetic to the idea that it’s not necessarily intentional in his part, but intent doesn’t matter when it comes to racism and he’s acted really fucking slowly in some cases (Williamson). A lot of the stuff attributed to him personally is structural but I do believe he’s been shit in answering the questions asked of him in a lot of cases.

xps to myself thinking out loud

it's probably not possible to really engage with most of the UK media on a constructive level so maybe i'm saying they need to find the most effective way of stonewalling. i just don't think that the glory days of Campbell/Mandelson are anything to miss or aspire to

xp to gyac yeah point taken, that's closer to the truth, just kneejerking against the kneejerk

xps the social media stuff is fine in terms of making shareable memes, but it can't do what the party's being criticised for not being able to do, which is respond quickly and effectively with party-line reactions to unfolding events. Even if momentum were better than they are they just aren't properly placed within the party in order to do this. Obviously they were incredibly effective at other things such as mobilising canvassers at the last election etc and been very clever about how they approached this. I'm not having a go but a campaign team is not the same as PR, which needs to communicate different messages under different circumstances and needs to be underwritten by a different kind of legitimacy

xp

which from a structural point of view brings us back to the important work still needing to be undertaken in how the party functions

Yeah my main thought reading a lot of stuff in the media was that I was not surprised that Labour HR is shit because...I have a job

Labour absolutely destroyed the Tories on social media in 2017, whoever did it, it worked.

because he isn't one

― what's wrong with being centre-y? (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, August 20, 2019 11:36 AM (nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Maybe, maybe not, but some of his best friends are

yeah, that was campaign stuff. I think momentum are really very good at that, and organisationally its all they can do because they are not within the party. This allowed the official labour message to be v inspiring because the joke-ey and more attack dog stuff got handles by momentum, while Labour could take the more prestigious Ken Loach direction. I think these two appraches complimented each other quite well and this was aided by momentum's autonomy.

Being completely and utterly shit on Brexit is maybe his biggest flaw though

who is really good on brexit right now, would you say?

lol DL is back!

DG, can you read Pom's posting on this yesterday on the main politics thread you might find it useful.

DL!!

DL? dog latin? *drake looking glum*
DL? dorian lynskey? *drake saying yaldi*

Letting the Tories bulldoze their way into a potential no-deal Brexit, and ONLY really doing anything about it once that eventuality is very much in sight would count as being totally shit

yeah okay. But who is not being shit? I'm just wondering because I'm sure you agree that various factors converge to make this a difficult position to negotiate, and surely somebody is doing it better in your opinion.

we're all disappointed that the leader of the Labour party didn't personally intervene in the Conservative leadership elections but hey

labour have consistently opposed a no deal since the day dot and have tried to forcefully socialise the case that it would be catastrophic. they tried to VONC may but didn’t have the numbers - they need the crisis to reach its apogee (perigee?) before a VONC to stop NDB has any chance of succeeding. meanwhile they have had to contend with FBPE ultras who consistently say no deal should be on the ballot for a second referendum, undermining some of the good work the leadership have been doing and putting food and medicine supply chains at risk in a referendum they’ve shown no signs they’d win

Corbyn whipped against the Tories on every vote except the vote to trigger Article 50. Voting in favour of that was probably his biggest single fuckup but understandable as they'd have been eviscerated if he hadn't. Whether that would have swung the 2017 election in either direction is an interesting question but also a pointless one.

and organisationally its all they can do because they are not within the party

hey DL remind me who it was who tanked the managed soft brexit proposal of Ken Clarke's that lost by 3 votes again? because that failure was a pivotal moment on the path to NDB and it wasn't Corbyn who voted against it.

What are Corbyn's flaws as distinct from other party leaders reckoning with the stupidest shit in our lifetimes might be a better (shorter?) thread.

Personally disappointed that he doesn't support PR or apparently have much interest in radical reform of 'Westminster' has he even read my newsletter etc. but better left to the next generation anyway probably.

TBF Labour's Brexit policy is incomprehensible to anyone who isn't paying pretty close attention (ie most people). They need to come up with something that can fit on an election flyer and be easily understood by people who don't follow politics that closely.

Brexit is too complicated for that. Maybe if they used 7pt Helvetica Condensed.

"We will make Brexit go away vote 4 us ktxbye"

maybe use some subliminal strobe messaging, I might end up having an epileptic fit but I'm damn sure Labour has a coherent brexit strategy!

respect the referendum result, negotiate a deal and put that back to the people for confirmation Vs remain.

I don’t understand what is necessarily that complicated about that

"We will make Brexit go away vote 4 us ktxbye"

Need something less complex than that even, how about Bollocks to Brexit? Just a suggestion.

'But Labour will be officially neutral'. Which is perfectly acceptable because we know his heart is in the right place.

xp

A question that came to me recently - a lot of the denouncements from people saying they couldn't serve in a GNU led by him called him, specifically, an anti-semite, which I think we'd all agree isn't one of his flaws? Why didn't he just sue the fuck out of them for libel?

Suing people for libel is rarely a good idea and almost never a good idea when you’re a politician. It destroyed Michael Meacher. Richard Burgon’s case against the Sun and the hint that Corbyn might get Ben Bradley for calling him a spy were different in that they were wholly unsupported by any argument. Corbyn might win a libel action over allegations of antisemitism but he’d also be inviting everyone who dislikes him to stand up in court and argue it was true.

xp all this time shitposting and for what?

Today in interview after interview I made it clear yet again that I would campaign to Remain. Yet Polly Toynbee writes that I was “suggesting Labour take a neutral stand in a future referendum.” No I didn’t Polly. Correct your article please. https://t.co/9tcwAAyCkn

— John McDonnell MP (@johnmcdonnellMP) August 19, 2019

The report with Pom's favourite headline:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/19/labour-may-stay-neutral-if-second-referendum-is-between-its-brexit-deal-or-remain

There are a range of things in there.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/19/labour-may-stay-neutral-if-second-referendum-is-between-its-brexit-deal-or-remain

But when asked if the party would stay neutral given a choice between a deal negotiated by Labour and remaining in the EU, Corbyn did not say which side the party would support.

“In a general election, we will put forward the opportunity for people in this country to have the final say,” he said on Monday. “It is not a rerun of 2016. It is simply saying the people of this country should make the final decision.

It's the constant evasiveness that puts one on edge.

Yes, the neutrality thing was always nonsense. Labour would allow MPs to campaign for whatever they wanted.

They aren’t going to negotiate “a credible leave option” and whip people to not have an opinion on it.

no - labour’s position in the referendum will be decided when we know what the deal is that remain goes up against. if when labour negotiates a deal with new red lines that it does not think benefits the working people in this country (including EU and non-EU migrants) when compared against remain, they will campaign for remain

Pom at least isn't taking this line...so far:

Conference won’t decide.

This will absolutely be a Milne decision whatever members want.

— Julia 🔶 (@julia_politics) August 20, 2019

there’s no deal better than remain btw afaik on all reasonable analyses

Indeed…

respect the referendum result, negotiate a deal and put that back to the people for confirmation Vs remain.

I don’t understand what is necessarily that complicated about that

Do you think the average person would be able to summarise that so succinctly if you asked them?

The 2017 manifesto was a huge success because it foregrounded crystal clear policy positions that were also in and of themselves very popular. They need to be able to articulate their Brexit policy in the same way (the Tories certainly can even if it's a dangerous fantasy).

The question of how Labour would campaign in the event of a second referendum can't really be handwaved away either, MPs will campaign for whatever they want but it's extremely unlikely the EU would be prepared to put any real effort into negotiating a deal with a government that intended to immediately campaign for Remain instead. Strangely no one in the media has really bought that up yet.

Many xposts there.

iirc momentum members are also supposed to be labour members too? Their My Nearest Marginal tool was incredible in terms of pooling resources and getting campaigners out there with no party funding.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/12/labour-knocking-on-doors-jeremy-corbyn-momentum

Laura Parker i think was behind this, she is afaik a PPC and would be a great MP

― gyac, Tuesday, 20 August 2019 10:58 (ten minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

yeah my nearest marginal was exactly what I was referring to earlier when I mentioned how clever they'd been around canvassing. Momentum is obviously strongly affiliated with the labour party and considers itself as part of a more diffuse organisational structure of party-political organising for labour. I think there are some very valuable strengths that come with this, as I clearly unsuccessfully tried to gesture to upthread. But it can't be everything to the party when it comes to the party's messaging. There are certain things that the party has to manage separately from this kind of broader messaging, and they need to be underwritten by a legitimacy derived from greater proximity to the inner-workings of the party, access to information about those inner-workings. It would be impossible to put momentum in such a position that it could speak on those innerworkings that wouldn't be at odds with its own inner-structure of coalescing a voice for labour supporters. Which is to say that there are two different voices of the party, which should be in tune to each other but which aren't identical, and momentum can only represent one.

no, probably not but that’s not a function of the policy. it’s a result of two years of performative media water muddying.

we have two years of “what IS labour’s brexit policy? who can say? it is a mystery”. when it is literally capable of being summarised in a tweet and understood by most adults with a reading comprehension level above a 1 year old

'A referendum between a negotiated soft Brexit and Remain' is even clearer and yet it's never been put in those terms. Performative media water muddying is going to happen anyway but they haven't found a way of cutting through that.

its only another superb thread from meself

― phil neville jacket (darraghmac), Wednesday, 24 July 2019 22:21 (three weeks ago) bookmarkflaglink

Huge discussions of antisemitism on the left including Corbyn on the actual antisemitism thread, whenever the latest development hit the news cycle.

As someone who has defended Jewish people against prejudice for most of my life as an intrinsic part of growing up with tons of Jewish peers and having a lot of love for Jewish culture, I don’t think he is. Guilt by association shouldn’t be valid either; we rail against it often enough in other circumstances. Most liberation movements contain a small wedge of cranks, and ‘nice liberals’ always discount the whole on that basis.

Fighting the rise of antisemitism in the 21st century is too important to entertain bad-faith moves by Corbyn’s media and political enemies. Framing an anti-racist who supports Palestinian liberation as antisemitic towards diaspora Jewry and not someone whose ire is exclusively reserved for the Israeli government is, to me, a form of swift-boating.

There’s a really horrible Venn diagram to be made of people who accuse Corbyn of hating Jewish people and people who don’t believe Owen Jones is a journalist/was beaten up by far-right thugs. It’s almost a circle.

we may get to that articulation eventually. the past two years have been a process of clarification, as GBP have been helped to better understand the difficulties and contradictions inherent in delivery of brexit. I always understood the policy to be a journey anyway (or as plax put it “it has an inbuilt engine for change”)

it was originally “respect the referendum, rule out a no deal brexit and keep all options on the table including a second referendum”. we have now made it to its second evolution, with the commitment to a second referendum even more explicit. I doubt it’ll stop there

I think a lot of what we're discussing here are issues of communication and lead back to Milne really, not in a lol sinister puppet master way but just being not very good at his job.

Pom, please RT:

Jeremy Corbyn didn’t fight to remain in 2016, and he won’t fight for remain now. He wants to deliver a Labour Brexit, because he is a Brexiteer. https://t.co/xJLpA0iCBB

— Jo Swinson (@joswinson) August 20, 2019

Jo Swinson didn’t campaign to Remain at all because she was out of politics from 2015-2017.

its only another superb thread from meself

― phil neville jacket (darraghmac), Wednesday, 24 July 2019 22:21 (three weeks ago) bookmarkflaglink

― phil neville jacket (darraghmac), Tuesday, 20 August 2019 bookmarkflaglink

This would've been a good thread to file some of the noise from the UK political threads. Shame its four years too late ;)

xxp
what a barefaced shameless lie from the Remain wing of the Tories, hope the SNP take her seat back again.

Alphie, you caught me redhanded, I am in fact a lib dem shill. Mea culpa, I should have included more caveats in my posts.

Out of parliament from 2015 to 2017 as a direct result of supporting and implementing Tory austerity policies.

This would've been a good thread to file some of the noise from the UK political threads. Shame its four years too late ;)

― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 20 August 2019 11:44 (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

i spose we can only change from today

and imo its filed the content from the other threads

labour activist

in the parlance of social media: are you having another normal one d-mac?

if anything likes jews too much

whats happening here, calz, is that theres been that thing today where a fella had the term "labour activist" flung at him as if it were the most heinous thing imaginable

now, obv jamiroquai cabbage is the most well known and possibly the most savagely committed of the labour activists

so it seemed a timely whim to note that if the accusation in paragraph 1 is a flaw then the extent to which that flaw is inherent and apparent in jasmina cobra would surely merit inclusion in this thread,which exists after all as a record of same

i know that my god loves me (he wrote it on my pencilcase), geffen, 1998

lol not a corbyn flaw, a mispost

ah I see what you did.

xxxp to mordy

well at least that's a start, even if you are quite cynical about his photo ops in the Jewish communities in his neck of the woods. Especially when the Conservative party's current leader of the house not so casually turned up at a Traditional Britain fundraiser some years back - they are a pro-Hitler branch of fascism in the UK, probably even more extreme than Mosley sr as well.

Jeremiah Crybaby. That's kinda a bible-joke as well. Almost.

he’s a milquetoast wee fud sometimes

see eg Jeremy Corbyn has attempted to defuse an attempt to oust the deputy Labour leader, Tom Watson, after a huge backlash from unions and MPs...

just get rid. he’s a wrecker. he’ll try wreck the chances of election and god forbid JC ever does become PM all the PLP wreckers will be insufferable. trigger ballot the lot of them

Hey, he's playing good cop

It's been said: his main flaw is that he's too nice, too democratic, too accommodating, too lacking in ruthlessness against people who detest him.

I can see how this is probably true.

I don't really think he has other flaws.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1575/4057/products/il_fullxfull.1395085447_gvzn_1024x1024.jpg?v=1510339690

You can purchase one here:

https://www.aintsaint.co/products/saint-jeremy-corbyn-prayer-candle

Hasn’t Tom Watson tried to undermine every Labour leader since (and including) Blair?

I think this is good from Corbyn, abolishing a position bc you don't like the incumbent is nonsense

king charles tbf

This is not Corbyn's doing but an ok enough read on the democratic deficit in the Labour Party.

Neil Coyle: "not a significant national figure & widely known for his abrasiveness & vituperative enmity towards the leadership", yet the challenge to his reselection failed, @samfoster99 on what this says about the trigger ballot system & left organising. https://t.co/ruqGl6QCEi

— New Socialist (@NewSocialistUK) September 21, 2019

I actually campaigned for Neil Coyle to be elected in 2015, knocking on doors in blocks of flats miles from home.

Clearly I now wish I hadn't bothered.

- That he almost certainly won't get elected, even up against a government as bad as this one?

- That he inspires the kind of loyalty in a section of his supporters that mean that they are not just in denial about his lack of electoral appeal, but are convinced that anyone who mentions it is maliciously motivated?

(The denial usually takes the form of clinging to the bounce Labour got in the last election campaign. It's one strand of positive evidence in a blizzard of negatives; and there are more plausible explanations for it than the idea that anything approaching enough voters would choose Corbyn as PM).

- That to the extent that they are not in denial about the minuscule probability of his election, his supporters in denial about how muchy of the fault lies with Corbyn himself? The usual bete noire here continues to be the media, but barring a brief period when everyone knew Blair was getting elected anyway Labour has always faced an ultra-hostile media; and the mainstream media used to be much, much more influential than it is now.

The solution is to change the ownership rules if and when the party achieves power. Until that happens the party needs a leader that can withstand the corrosive powers of a hostile media and remain electable. You have to win in the world as it is, not as you would like it to be. W

Who would you propose?

Lol Rebekah Brooks was devastated when “her Tony” got moved against & Murdoch withdrew support for Labour almost as soon as Brown was installed, but sure, “brief period”.

The media does not just have the effect of spreading countless bad stories about Corbyn/Labour but of actively minimising or refusing to cover negative stories against the Conservatives. You’re not wrong about traditional media but where do you think new stories are broken? Where does new media get its attack lines from? Why would the Barclays pay Boris 23k a month for a column if they weren’t betting on some outcome in their favour as a result?

Frankie would have a point if Corbyn was just about winning elections.

"the party needs a leader that can withstand the corrosive powers of a hostile media"

do a scoring matrix on one of them fantasy xi's national unity governments and whoever scores the highest wins and is likely to meet that criteria!

Some truth in all of frankiemachine's points, but then the question is well ok who instead?

There's a fundamental misunderstanding of the public out there that seems to have permeated thinking across the board. The idea that we need a more 'moderate' candidate rests on the incorrect assumption that the public is economically more conservative than it really is, and thats its socially/culturally/psychologically more liberal than it really is, which is why centrism fails every time it comes into contact with the public.

TLDR we need Jamie Vardy

his replacement will only be someone from the left of the party and won't be any of the blairite detritus with the current makeup of the membership and so on. And when the same people question the electability of this new leader, I will not be surprised but just as bored.

I see a few people (on Twitter mainly) doing this thing where they say they can't back him as leader because he doesn't come across well on TV. But it's not that this matters to them so much as they imagine it does to the those others. So they'll complain that he appears 'dishonest' or whatever while demanding a variety of slick (and therefore definitely dishonest) performance that they can accept as being convincing to 'the public'. I'm sure Zizek has a line on this kind of thing.

I mean, he's not good at taking on board the usual media training approach at all, but that doesn't read as dishonesty in any important way to me.

reject emphatically the idea a Corbyn-led gov isn't electable - but years of explanatory impasse on this of course

i just know that if Owen Smith had won we'd be 20 points ahead in the polls, Article 50 would've been revoked and people would be outside parliament demanding the renationalisation of public utilities by now

I thought labour were going to be 20 points ahead in the polls if they supported a second referendum?

I thought the polls meant fuck all after the last two GEs but here we linger.

do a scoring matrix on one of them fantasy xi's national unity governments and whoever scores the highest wins and is likely to meet that criteria!

This is pretty much the problem, these national unity lads are the inverse of what actually works because the people who subscribe to this stuff are super unpopular in the country and fail to realize it. "Tory Remainers", socially liberal economically conservative. ie - the smallest section of the electorate, heavily over-represented in a traditional media increasingly distrusted and ignored

xp afaict people don’t seriously think about their voting intention until there’s actually an election. Polling is good for direction of travel but equally I don’t think it’s the be all and end all esp now.

Further to what I said about the media refusing to cover negative Conservative stories: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/c8nq32jw8r1t/boris-johnson

Not one mention of the Times story.

Frankie would have a point if Corbyn was just about winning elections.

I would hope that's a considerable part of what he's about, else gtf.

I think he meant corbyn isn't about winning an election by any means necessary, which brought us decades of continuity thatcherism last time we tried that. And got us to this glorious juncture we are currently at.

I hope that's what he meant and not some internal Labour Left navel gazing garbage.

The two are pretty much intertwined, to get a genuinely left government the Labour Party needs to be reformed

Like I really don't know how anybody thinks "socialism with a media savvy frontperson" is a real prospect. I'm not even sure how much of 97 was the "appeal" of Blair and how much was public exhaustion with a shambolic, corrupt, joke government

nb: that doesn't mean there cannot be a better leader of the party than Corbyn - massive caveats about the servile bullshit concept of leadership aside - but that the process of thinking about how we can even think about how to improve on Corbyn has come about because of the role he played in the last 3 or 4 years

Excuse my tautological excesses there

Major quite rightly said he could have run against himself in '97 and still lost.

Frankie would have a point if Corbyn was just about winning elections.

I would hope that's a considerable part of what he's about, else gtf.

― Let them eat Pfifferlinge an Schneckensauce (Tom D.), Sunday, 22 September 2019 bookmarkflaglink

I think he meant corbyn isn't about winning an election by any means necessary, which brought us decades of continuity thatcherism last time we tried that. And got us to this glorious juncture we are currently at.

― calzino, Sunday, 22 September 2019 bookmarkflaglink

I hope that's what he meant and not some internal Labour Left navel gazing garbage.

― Let them eat Pfifferlinge an Schneckensauce (Tom D.), Sunday, 22 September 2019 bookmarkflaglink

Calzino got what I meant. I think we are seeing a failure of politics as is (especially if Johnson triumphs) and we need to re-energise the left, look beyond elections because we're gonna need it.

Like I really don't know how anybody thinks "socialism with a media savvy frontperson" is a real prospect.

Depends, "media savvy frontperson" is of course a centrist daydream of exactly the type of figure the country dislikes, but also more important isn't liked enough to counterbalance the dislikes.

But facts are, the policies are popular, the frontperson is disliked. The question is how much this matters - the headline billing of the polling question "do you view the leader favourably" already contains an assumption about the level of importance of 'liking the leader'. Yes there are large numbers of people who vote with that as a factor, but there are lots who don't, so its not a particularly illuminating question. It also doesn't factor in level of like/dislike. I dont really think most people even think about it

Also negative responders are negative about Corbyns character. Positive responders are more likely positive about Corbyns policies.

But there is a point in here about psychology, because there are voters who choose based on psychology, and the people with the keys to that aren't the non-entities we're touted as replacements. Its Nigel Farage

Its FDR, its Jamie Vardy, its Putin, its Tony Benn. Weird thing is...its also kind of John McDonnell

McD does have more charisma than Corbs, no doubt. There are a couple of points against him being the immediate successor I think. It's good to have him as Shadow Chancellor, because economic policy is such a standard line of attack against Labour in general and left Labour in particular that the job requires somebody with a degree of sharpness and political weight and who else could carry it off as well as McD at the moment? Secondly, if he were to become leader, the media would go after him with every bit as much of the "traitorous friend of terrorism" bullshit as they do Corbs, and while McD would probably be a bit of an upgrade in terms of negotiating that I'm not sure the difference in polling would be profound.

McD has a dodgy heart so had ruled it out on that account, but agree. I would say he’s more charismatic but also doesn’t come across as warm as Corbyn, and that matters when all the press are screaming that you’re a radical. Obvs wouldn’t be here for the huge amounts of anti-Irish sentiment the press would run freely with either.

I think Vardy would make a better county lines drug courier than a LOTO because the cops would be like "nothing to see lads it's just Vardz"

but i guess the point i was making before is that the more you get sucked into the "exactly the type of figure the country dislikes" game, which i agree is centrist dreaming, the more distracted you get from a transformative politics. frankiemachine's "you have to win in the world as it is, not as you would like it to be" sounds like pure centrist mantra to me, and there's a difficult course to be navigated because the closer you come to engaging with "the world as it is" the more likely you are to become a force for perpetuating that world.

for years I used to hear: the only way to win elections is by appealing to this mythical middle ground basically meaning affluent people in the tory voting heartlands. what a fucking degenerate approach to representative democracy that was.. I mean fuck off forever! Thats why I never voted for decades

I'm not advocating any change

Secondly, if he were to become leader, the media would go after him with every bit as much of the "traitorous friend of terrorism" bullshit as they do Corbs and that matters when all the press are screaming that you’re a radical.

The public WANT a radical! They love to see it

frankiemachine's "you have to win in the world as it is, not as you would like it to be" sounds like pure centrist mantra to me,

and there's disagreement about what "the world as it is". really even is

the only way to win elections is by appealing to this mythical middle ground basically meaning affluent people in the tory voting heartlands.

Yes, this is a nonsense, the Tories have a record of 2 in 7? The reason going for the centre ground is a nonsense is people are looking in the wrong place, but we should be wary of whoever finds it, because its Strasserism

feel like Skinnock et al would be pretty happy to explore that avenue

i guess the frustrating thing about the "Corbs's acolytes have swallowed the Kool Aid" line is that while there is a kind of gushing fankid worship out there - god knows i see enough crappy memes/posts on Facebook in an unironically North Korean style - most of us who can be considered supporters of Corbyn, especially on ILX, are supporters because he is part of a historical moment and a movement within the Labour party that we've longed for for decades, and his place in that movement *at this moment* isn't completely contingent. every narrative of "oh yeah i like that the party's becoming more radical it's just a shame the wrong guy is in charge" is, wittingly or not, concern trolling from a right/centre agenda - it wouldn't even be discussible had Corbyn not won the leadership in the first place. to bemoan Corbyn *does* become about bemoaning the project, unless you talk about it with a lot more nuance than repeating broadsheet centrist tropes

think we're broadly in agreement anvil so that's not aimed at you, just the topic at large, thinking out loud

xp I think you maybe meant another word?

There’s an idea going around the commentariat that Corbyn in interview is passive-aggressive/evasive and if the interviewer is female, double that plus truculent. Do ppl here think that’s true, or is his response style the way a ‘normal’ (not media trained) person might react?

Bonus points for commentators who claim that any politician invoking ‘the media’ is somehow channeling Donald Trump even when they’re lefties. I think that’s bullshit.

A certain section of the country has masqueraded as the silent majority / centre ground and Brexit exposed the myth. Its why the BBC is perceived as simultaneously too left wing and too right wing, and why both are true depending which lens is used. This section of society isn't the centre ground at all, not now at least, Tory Remainer over-representation

I’m not entirely sure on that point, I haven’t seen him with many female interviewers to judge (and even then I suppose the case is made that they’re openly hostile). It’s not my hill to die on considering actual Labour policies towards women are way better than any other party’s.

I agree, but I know a lot of commentariat women who say this so they can talk about brocialists. Never mind that Corbyn’s appeal is highest among working women.

if anyone knew what "the world as it is" was you wouldn't really need politics; a big part of politics is epistemology

I am increasingly in favour of the argument that Corbyn himself (as a person) could be replaced by any of the centrist faves and that they would be quickly steamrollered by the press if they were advocating the exact same policies.

I could see Starmer handling it well - lawyers gonna lawyer etc - the key to the policies is McD.

That much is obvious, but the question isn't whether the media steamroller the person, its if it works or not (and the reliability of whether it works)

But being attacked by the media isn't something to complain about, its a positive not a negative (as Bernie and Trump have shown - as certain sections of US media have realized on Bernie and have changed to just covering him less)

I suspect Starmer would be full of to many compromises to the right to ever be leader in the current Labour era. and I wouldn't trust any crawler who has bowed to the Queen!

refusal to bow to the Queen isn't one of Colwyn's flaws.

Tbh...

Corbyn gave the Queen a jar of his jam for her 90th bday 2016, but banned aides from telling journalists: @TimRoss_1 & @TomMcTague book

— John Rentoul (@JohnRentoul) December 3, 2017

i'd have spiked it with lsd after hocking in it, but I'm not the LOTO thankfully!

you're *our* LOTO

pearl jam?

Leader of our inquisition

Strawberry jam to make sure the pips got stuck under her upper plate though.

don't worry about the little white worms in there m'lady, it's organic y'see

Blackberry and apple, iirc.

I hope the corgis enjoyed it.

apple pips do contain cyanide traces, but alas probably not even enough to kill one of the ugly yippers

my LOTO renounces dog person status in situations of royalty

All the corgis are dead, Tom.

Brexit killed them?

Corgis dead, miss them, miss them

this is a new thing i learned today

I buried corgis (xp)

Two dorgis (dachshund-corgi mixes) still alive.

No Corbies? They have an odd preference for sniffing iron drain covers and eating tofu based pedigree chum, bit high maintenance.

German Corgi is my leader.

Threadbare brown carpet, I imagine; perhaps old cork tiles in his kitchen. Generally in need of vacuuming.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2015/11/diane-abbott-on-the-positives-of-chairman-mao/
Still bothers me that this didn't really bother many people.

I will concede that she is a different person from Jeremy Corbyn.

thanks for bringing up this four-year-old story about an 11-year-old comment from a person who isn’t jeremy corbyn on the ‘what are jeremy corbyn’s flaws’ thread

yeah they've got different hair and everything

nah really tho my biggest fear about HARD LEFT is they might pull a cultural revolution

sorry, missed out a "not" in that post

the NOT HARD LEFT

so much for the half mast left

I'd be talking about the positives of Chairman McD if he spearheaded a ruthless anti-rightist campaign that included the liquidation or incarceration in hard labour camps of the UK's landed gentry, tbf on Diane.

don't let's be beastly to the boss class

don’t let’s be beastly to the boss nass

https://media.tenor.com/images/4f87c7e1a95c59bf8ec80881b8f5c705/tenor.gif

I bet if someone like (a white academic) Adam Tooze who has previously written extensively on the strengths and weaknesses of the Nazi economy was to pen a piece about Chairman Mao's achievements it wouldn't have got revived on a thread 11 years later!

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2015/11/diane-abbott-on-the-positives-of-chairman-mao🕸/
Still bothers me that this didn't really bother many people.

I will concede that she is a different person from Jeremy Corbyn.

And this from a publication that recently ran an article titled In Praise of the Wehrmacht, ffs.

is it fuck, he did more the Nehru to drag millions and millions of agrarian peasantry out of old world poverty, and you don't have to be a GLF/cultural revolution apologist to say that

more than Nehru i meant

Yeah but Nehru never oh wait

ne'hr-u-well

You had to be there.

Maoricio may have dragged thousands out of old world mid table obscurity to a night out in Madrid. But looking back now as it crumbles you have to ask, at what cost?

the long august-through-march

lol!

Big Xeng Samping showed how it should have been done!

Is it controversial to say Mao did some good things?

― gyac, Sunday, October 20, 2019 4:11 PM

It's the queasiness of "I suppose that some people would judge that on balance Mao did more good than wrong." sounding like she might feel this way.

do you get as angry about Taki saying the Wehrmacht were a great set of lads, Rob?

But the transcript is given, right there:

AN: Why is that? Why is it right to wear a Maoist t-shirt but obviously wrong, as it is, to wear a Hitler t-shirt?
DA: I suppose that some people would judge that on balance Mao did more good than wrong. We can’t say that about the Nazis.

"some people would judge that on balance"

you really don't get much more unequivocal cheerleading than that tbf!

what about when McD threw Mao's little red book at Gideon in the mother of all parliaments - fucking disgrace!

1-0 to Kuomintang scum!

do you get as angry about Taki saying the Wehrmacht were a great set of lads, Rob?

― calzino, Sunday, October 20, 2019 4:41 PM

I don't know who that is.

lol what is this revive

xp
he's a right wing columnist who wrote a shockingingly ahistorical and fascistic pro Wehrmacht piece in the same tory shit-rag you linked that wrote a context free piece smearing Diane Abbott.

breaking: john bercow says "hang nelson mandela"

lol that's not even remotely a fair comparison to diane's comments

my problem with Diane is that she's giving a quite guarded politicians answer rather than saying FUCK EVERY LAST ONE OF THOSE RENTIER CLASS PARASITES!

context free piece smearing Diane Abbott.

― calzino, Sunday, October 20, 2019 5:24 PM

What was the additional context? I considered posting other links of the story but on a quick search none seemed especially better. The video by itself is more likely to be deleted.

None of you even a little worried about the way she talked about this?

"MP: Just tell me what was the good thing that he did that made up for the 60 million people he murdered?
DA: He led his country from feudalism, he helped to defeat the Japanese, and he left his country on the verge of the great economic success they are having now."

Diane was asked a history question and then answers it with historical observations shocker! Rob for you to have that paragraph gestating in your mind for the last 5 years tells me a lot about you tbf!

I wonder what MP thinks about the British empire.

Not worried in the slightest. She stated a pretty bog standard academic viewpoint there.

Explain why you are “worried”?

I hold Mao directly responsible for those terrible songs Cornelius Cardew wrote in the latter part of his life - so, DUD.

the cassandra of the corbynite gulags

i guess we can't say we weren't warned

I read that Mao book by his long suffering doctor Li Zhisui, he was a reet cunt - no doubt on that one!

ye

ye do know that ye are lunatics right

yeah but lunacy aside .. Diane didn't say anything that would be considered remotely controversial in polite society.

I’m sure this tedious contrarianism has a point beyond you jumping in just because someone making stupid posts is getting mocked, right?

wb, btw.

Admittedly, it doesn't look quite as bad as I remembered years ago (and I'm always happy when that happens; I hope everyone experiences this now and then).
But she was asked "what was the good thing that he did that made up for the 60 million people he murdered?"
She states the good things (which of course are disputed by many but I cant really say anything about) but doesn't contest the idea that it makes up for all the dead. Making it seem more like this is her own opinion (which I hope isn't).

ok

big of you to cop for it Rob, but you are still adding too much import to what is said in the course of an interview. is she supposed to finish every answer with some mealy mouthed condemnation of those that starved to death during collectivisation just so there is no doubt? christ there are so many dodgy spectator pieces over the years - there is literally nothing to see in that one.

killing innocent people is bad and we should all be grateful we live within a system that doesn't do that

I'm glad the bbc always mentions how many died because of blair everytime someone mentions him

Calzino- I don't think it's big of me because I don't read/listen enough about politics to hold that many strong opinions. Mao being very shit is one of the few things I can say firmly, along with disliking all the completely obvious people.

you don't read/listen to much on politics to hold strong opinions but will carry a five year grudge against a politician based on a dubious smear piece in a tory rag - jesus wept I give up!

I don't know which rags are tory apart from Daily Mail, Daily Express and The Sun. And I think I was mostly focusing on her actual words, if I could have found a straighter transcript of the clip, I would have chosen that instead.

Five years -- that's all we've got.

Five years -- my brain hurts a lot.

Pushing through the market square,
So many mothers sighing
News had just come over,
We had five years of Cronbin

Fiivve derps

I think I saw you in the House of Commons,
Talking milk takes all day long
Smiling and waving and looking so red,
Don't think you knew you were in this song

Jezza played guitar
Jamming good with John McDonnell

there’s a chaaaaairman waiting in shanghai
he’d love to come and lead us
but his body count’s too high

lol!

Wrecker is wrecking, slim from chunky
We know Baggy Tom's a flunky
Sitting on WhatsApp now
Leaking to high and low

xxp incredible work

hahaha

When they pulled you out of the oxygen tent
You asked for the latest Party
Then you joined it
Cos you are Chuka Umunna
You twat

These are all brilliant, LOL!

Walks beside me (Michael Gove)
Walks on by (Michael Gove)
Gets me to Today on time (Today on time)

Terrifies me (Today on time)
Trust the party (Today on time)
Puts my trust in bullshit plans (bullshit plans)
No concessions (bullshit plans)
No defections (bullshit plans)
Don't believe in Michael Gove

HAAAAAAAAAA

That’s brilliant

Jon Lansman said
To get things done
You better jettison baggy Tom

hates england

Another one for the credit column

Villain Corbyn snubs our brave rugby boys by flagrantly napping on a train. We don't have any confirmation, but a number 10 source says that when Corbyn found out about the victory, he said "fuck the rugby. Rugby is for cunts who love their country"

— keewa (@keewa) October 27, 2019

he's still got a long way to go before he despises posh tosser rugby as much as Karen the Rhinos fan in my local chippy does!

we have nearly 20 pro cricket stadiums being used for nothing over the winter, really wish AFL would take off here, it is incalculably superior to rugby

i guess we have this at least https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_rules_football_in_England

might get down to a South East London Giants game

meanwhile calzino can report live from a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huddersfield_Rams home game

Another terrifyingly bad idea from you. Well done!

piss, cornflakes, etc

More like Australian No Rules amirite?

it was bad form of them to adopt Rams seeing as it's a name strongly identified with the 121 yr old RL club up the road in the heavy woollen district, but i suppose doesn't really matter when your attendance is .. do pigeons count?

has a high mindedness that means he often plays the ball when he might play the man

doesn’t listen to legitimate concerns

not tyrannical enough tbf

I've been meaning to stick "willingness to insist that Chris Williamson is a grand bunch of lad, not an anti-semitic bone in his body" on here for about a month, thought I should get in early before this fills up tomorrow.

Thank you for your service

Haven't heard much from him lately, are we still on course to have Derby North go back Tory because of the stupid cunt?

Hm OK the last polling is that the tories will win it comfortably and that CW will get <2%, guess the damage is already done before you get to the vote-splitting

A: too good for em

Nah.

Corbyn. What a man. Whatever happens today, he's 70 and he's never stopped. He's campaigned passionately and tirelessly, not lied, got angry or stooped to their level. He's been calm when needed. To still have that drive and passion is wonderful. What a man. An inspiration.

— Joe (@rufcjoe87) December 12, 2019

I feel like whoever the membership want next will be angry and less inclined to be polite like that.

I'm less inclined to be polite

J__i_ V__d_

Jamboree Champagne you have made it impossible for us to agree on anything at all.

Frankly feel he'll be happier back as an MP. Have heard from two different people - one cabby, one guy in a kebab shop - how he personally helped them sort problems out. I know that's no substitute for the structural change we need but it's gotta be more rewarding.

Should whoever the new leader is treat the media more aggressively, like Trump, treating them as an extension of the government and go on attack regardless? Or more like McD, sorta pretending to agree with them and aiming to prevent them putting you on back foot that way?

Corbyn didn't really do either and fell into a weird hinterland. Made classic mistake of "as I've explained before", which is useless as it assumes the viewer watched before. Questions should be answered as tho it first time asked, regardless. Because for some people it is the first time. Also doesn't feed into framing of somehow evading or answering properly as it seems like first time each time

I don't follow the threads regularly so I may have missed your take on this, couldn't find anything on searches. Not about the "friends" things but the statements beyond that.
https://medium.com/@blokeontheleft/jeremy-corbyn-and-hamas-a22be59cecd7

And to come back to the Abbott thing (though I doubt anyone can be bothered), is it likely many people wear a Mao shirt because of his economics, efforts against japan and feudalism?
I imagine most people who get the shirt think "I guess he's like Buddha or something? Maybe you rub his head?"

Made classic mistake of "as I've explained before", which is useless as it assumes the viewer watched before. Questions should be answered as tho it first time asked, regardless. Because for some people it is the first time. Also doesn't feed into framing of somehow evading or answering properly as it seems like first time each time

Meanwhile the PM either does the same or just doesn't even turn up.

As a human being, I don't really think he has particular flaws - or at least none that everyone else doesn't have.

What he has more of is rare human qualities.

One of the most remarkable, inspirational people I have ever seen. It's been a privilege to be part of a movement led by him, for this period of time.

The fact that scumbags and bastards don't like him goes with the territory.

The tweet that XYZ shares above is spot-on.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/17/corbyn-mcdonnell-transformed-labour

keep thinking about tweets like this

Before @ing me about him not winning two elections, go fuck yourself. Corbyn gave so many of us, especially black and brown people, a genuine home in party politics for the first time in our lives. Nothing will ever undermine that.

— Jase (@jasebyjason) December 12, 2019

lots of people who were rendered "politically homeless" (but not crass enough to use that term) by some of the hateful rhetoric of Miliband Labour won't forget the good work he did in a hurry.

guys i hate to bring this up but.. can anybody remind me how the whole renegotiate the WA / ref2 thing was supposed to have worked? let’s say corbyn got his minority govt, prob with SNP and a swinsonless LD coalition. and say he went back to the EU and secured a new WA, something a bit like norway+ or whatever. how...... ON EARTH would that have passed the commons?

I mean, the ability to call yourself a government is the ability to pass legislation, so "with SNP and a swinsonless LD coalition" is the answer there.

I am not actually that familiar with the plans, but they could have planned to put it to a referendum before a commons vote, in the hope that, if it passed, enough Tory MPs would be "Well we hate Jeremy Corbyn but the people have spoken"?

you don't campaign on the basis of what you would do if you squeak into a minority government

but yeah idk what would actually have happened

i mean.. no tories were going to vote for it. so how does it pass? I'm assuming it would have had to pass the commons in order to get onto a binding ref ballot.

The numbers? I mean they didn’t need that many seats to change hands to make the numbers work.

They said Jeremy Corbyn wasn't doing enough about antisemitism. They said he didn't care.

They lied. pic.twitter.com/axnacI7Wdc

— Marl Karx (@BareLeft) April 13, 2020

The revelations in the document are interesting in terms of evaluating Corbyn's performance.

In that sense it's history but also it's having a party that is fully functioning too for Starmer and any future leader.

well, this guardian article from just two months ago doesn’t sit quite right anymore, does it? pic.twitter.com/UUMhiAmmoh

— nomes burnley (@nomey_b) April 13, 2020

James Butler on the LRB brilliantly argued through his many faults and flaws. In much of my time on here I think I argued from a position of him as non-leader (or anti-) as positive, and this is pretty much what he flips around.

In other news, @jeremycorbyn is living his best life, doing bhangra at a wedding. 👑 pic.twitter.com/NZlUzgHUsK

— Taj Ali (@Taj_Ali1) July 27, 2022

Not a flaw.

In much of my time on here I think I argued from a position of him as non-leader (or anti-) as positive

Jezza Garcia

Lol

shd've tried harder to secure the party from the right, probably a failing tied into almost a virtue

did things he knew were bullshit to appease people he had too much faith in and lost his insurgent edge in the process

Jeremy Corbyn played a version of 'Doom' that lets you 'kill Thatcher' https://t.co/tJpeQCFP6i

— The Independent (@Independent) September 26, 2022

The absolute best, always been a top ten Corbyn story

Quality pic.twitter.com/H5AaeQ62xU

— Fisted Away (@fistedaway) September 28, 2022

An honour to meet Chris Smalls, who led the first Amazon strikes in the U.S.

Thank you for galvanising a collective movement, whose success has inspired so many others to stand up and fight back against corporate greed.

International solidarity is how we win! pic.twitter.com/YOQJkmeyHA

— Jeremy Corbyn (@jeremycorbyn) February 21, 2023

"I do not intend to stop fighting for real change on your behalf."

Our economy is characterised by poverty, debt and inequality.

People in Islington North are demanding a more hopeful alternative.

I do not intend to stop fighting for real change on your behalf. pic.twitter.com/s6nB3AgRAh

— Jeremy Corbyn (@jeremycorbyn) March 22, 2023

If I went out campaigning as a non-Islington resident millenial leftist foreigner would you guys reckon' that would help or hurt?

Help.

The only thing stopping people who voted for Corbyn the last time doing so again if he runs as an independent is the idea that you have to vote Labour to keep the Tories out, which is an inane position to hold in Islington North.

in Islington North

Wondering how much Keir Labour is going to throw away on trying to crowbar some briefcase fool into that seat

I saw an outlier poll where they are only 10 pts ahead yesterday, lol

Yeah, weird how more competent fascism isn’t an argument against fascist policies.

Not only that but Starmer’s whole way of being is so offputting I expect the polling to tighten to within a few percentage points as contact with the reality of the man fully hits people

he's already polling lower than Sunak on a personal basis, unbelievably classic Labour

I saw an outlier poll where they are only 10 pts ahead yesterday, lol

― calzino, Wednesday, 22 March 2023 bookmarkflaglink

It's narrowed bcz it isn't the Truss-led shit show and Lab will only have bots to say how Kieth is a top bloke.

One poll indicated a Labour majority of 8.

No reason to believe that particular outcome will occur but it is one of those accidental scenarios that would, in theory, favour a faction like the Socialist Campaign Group, if they had the will to enact that as the ERG did (which they won't). They could make demands in exchange for voting through KS's policies, etc.

I don't think it will happen (don't think the SCG are able to stand up in this way) but hypothetically that would be the result of such a scenario. Hypothetically therefore it could be the best feasible electoral outcome.

You can even imagine, say, a Labour majority of 2, which would be 50% larger if only they hadn't expelled the successful candidate for Islington North. Would make that act look the more self-destructive (as well as morally wrong).

the SCG have not acquitted themselves well in the post-Corbyn era

Let's see them use a slim majority to push socialist policy just you wait.

Tony Blair famously said if he could win from the left he wouldn’t do it. I haven’t seen anything to indicate the current party is different.

Re the og question, I feel like the left needs a hard bastard as a leader or figurehead, and sadly Corbs wasn't that. Mick Lynch seems to have worked wonders for the RMT. Ian Lavery squared up to Johnson on live TV. I know this is simplistic but voters seem to prefer someone perceived as pugilistic. Obviously I'm ignoring the media's role in Corbs leadership, and what they would do to such a hypothetical leader (I remember how they demonised and ridiculed Prescott for defending himself).

Yeah I think it's a consensus take now that Corbyn was too soft.

He was not a leader in any sense of the word. Which is why he was the best leader.

Amazing how close we got to at least some power.

just realised that if Humza wins the SNP vote, all four biggest parties will be led by charisma-free freaks who command absolutely zero respect from anyone. you couldn't say the same about Corbyn, Johnson or Sturgeon.

enter Sir Edward Davey

look, charisma-free freaks is grown-up politics

Sounds like an uncool liberal belief, to me

prefer someone perceived as pugilistic.

It's directness, straightforwardness, and succinctness that are popular. That doesn't necessarily mean being more pugilistic at all

Starmer has problems in that case.

I think that is pretty clear!

It's directness, straightforwardness, and succinctness that are popular. That doesn't necessarily mean being more pugilistic at all

― anvil, Wednesday, 22 March 2023 15:33 (ten minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Personally I thought Corbs was all these things, to a large extent, with the exceptions maybe of Brexit and the EU.

Agree.

I wish Corbyn would sue every one of these fuckers who's called him an antisemite. he could fund a new party with that money.

I'm always glad to see JC happy.

Thank you to the people of Belfast for a truly inspirational visit.

I was honoured to speak at #Feile35 and pay tribute to the Irish community back in my constituency.

Above all, I was buoyed by the hope of young people campaigning for freedom, peace and unity. pic.twitter.com/07TgLm00n1

— Jeremy Corbyn (@jeremycorbyn) August 4, 2023

he does an innocuous Hiroshima day post and predictably 99% of the replies are from really nasty and thick friends and apologists of the mass humanity exterminating division of the US military complex. He's already politically finished and had whip removed ffs

JC marks 50 years since the coup in Chile.

50 years ago, a US-backed military coup overthrew the Allende government in Chile.

Chileans never gave up — after 17 years of repression, democracy was restored.

As Pablo Neruda said, “You can cut all the flowers but you can’t stop Spring from coming.” pic.twitter.com/BhYQOXyA4r

— Jeremy Corbyn (@jeremycorbyn) September 11, 2023

I've just been reading an oral history of Rough Trade where Piers Corbyn is twice referred to as 'The King of the Squats'.

incidentally the Times have scrubbed the article where a senior serving general in the army threatens to overthrow Corbyn - you can only find the article being reported on secondhand via other news sites

— Arbeitology (@Arbeit_Fish) May 26, 2025