Drummers

The only musical training I've ever had was a month or two of African and Latin percussion lessons about 10 years ago. I love shoving those rhythms onto a drumset, it makes it sound like I know what the hell I'm doing.

i'm not a very good drummer now, but i've found drumming (or at least a really good understanding of drumming) has made me a better musician in other ways. not only has it made my rhythmic chops better on guitar and bass, i can program the living shit out of a drum machine or sing a drum part that i want my very talented drummer tim to play on the kit.

mitch mitchell dying got me thinking about arguments i used to have with a friend of mine over mitch vs. buddy miles, and the fact you can have that argument and how great they both were (tho i'm still mitch all the way on that one). and then on the mitch r.i.p. thread there was some discussion of the way he (and moon, and that generation) opened up the drums as a rock instrument. and how they were influenced by jazz playing, because jazz drummers opened up the drums first. and all that kind of thing. and then through the '70s and '80s, you had all these guys who even a sort of moderately in touch rock or jazz fan can at least namecheck.

and i'm just curious who are the great drummers now? i know the defining rhythm guys of the last 10-20 years have really been hip-hop and r&b producers, and i love those guys. but on the boring old actual-hit-them-with-something front, i'm just not tuned into who's been doing really adventurous stuff. the people who come to mind are, like, david king and brian chippendale... the boredoms ... ilx's own whiney ... but i don't really know who else. jazz? rock? afropop? any unheralded geniuses out there? or is the era of the genius drummer somwhat past?

(oops i didn't even see this was an ile thread when i revived it. seems like it should be ilm. well, whatever.)

Never mind the great drummers...

I participated in a Samba workshop recently and was really struck by how much fun it is to make music as part of a group using percussion, and how little skill you need individually to make beautiful music together.

yeah mass percussion is a good thing. one thing i like about the boredoms' boadrum stuff is they're kind of reclaiming drum circles from embarrassment.

but i still want to know about great drummers.

I am slowly but steadily replacing myself with a drum machine in my band.

I've remarked on this before but I've noticed that a casual listen to random Myspace friend-requesting unsigned metal or alt rock (NOT indie, obviously) bands reveals very high technical standards of drumming - much higher, in fact, than that heard in pretty well-known bands in the 1960s and '70s. Obviously there were people that stood out in that era but there were an awful lot of drummers who sound quite average by today's standards of technical proficiency.

I think, though, that the concept is redundant. Nobody cares any more. The drum machine and computer sequencer are so ubiquitous that actual drumming is just a niche. Musicians and engineers and others in that world may have an opinion but the wider world doesn't care. The 'is Ginger Baker the best, or is it Billy Cobham?' 1970s type debate is of no interest to the majority of people any more.

Clicktracks, loops, and identikit drum sounds killed interest in drummers. The last indie / rock / alternative drummer I can think of who made me go "wow" was the Dismemberment Plan guy; that's a LONG time ago now. My favourite current drummer is Sebastian Rochford of Polar Bear and Acoustic Ladyland, but he's (ostensibly) a jazz drummer, so it doesn't really count. Matt Tong from Bloc Party was exciting for 45 minutes at the start of 2005.

I'd suggest bassists have gone the same way, too.

I think, though, that the concept is redundant. Nobody cares any more. The drum machine and computer sequencer are so ubiquitous that actual drumming is just a niche. Musicians and engineers and others in that world may have an opinion but the wider world doesn't care. The 'is Ginger Baker the best, or is it Billy Cobham?' 1970s type debate is of no interest to the majority of people any more.

But this is true for musicians other than drummers too, yes?

Exactly; who would care whether Coldplay or Snow Patrol have the better guitarist; neither of them do anything interesting or impressive at any stage.

and i'm just curious who are the great drummers now?

That guy from Battles is pretty entertaining - I have no idea at all if what he is doing is good or not, but heck it works for me.

I suspect the right answer here though is Dave Lombardo.

But this is true for musicians other than drummers too, yes?

Yes, I suppose, but probably more so for drummers. The guitar or keyboard hasn't been outright replaced in everyday music production in quite the same way, but I guess computer sequencing has taken over from unquantized playing for a large swathe of current music. What's confusing is that in certain genres (metal and rock) the standard seems to have improved, at least on a technical level.

Dale Crover. End of thread. Bonham and Moon did not live long enough to get as good as Dale Crover is now.

drum geek sick chops youtube thread from IMM...

Drum geek sick chops youtube thread

great way to waste an evening.

chris corsano and alex neilson doing really great things with improv stuff. dave king from the bad plus sounds like he's having FUN all the time, amazing to see him play. joey baron as well, there's a youtube of him with john zorn which is really fantastic.

been really feeling karriem riggins and chris 'daddy' dave especially when they both just stay in the pocket and groove along.

I think people in certain genres (metal, jazz) still focus a lot on individual *musicianship*, including for drummers.It's probably true that you don't have the same overall public level of interest in John Bonham vs. Keith Moon kinds of debates. I'm sure there are still a lot of kids who know who the drummers of their favorite bands are, but I don't think drummers are as capable of celebrity as they used to be. There's also a certain indie contingent that still gets into drummer-worship (people who like Don Cab, Hella, Lightning Bolt, Deerhoof, etc.).

there's a whole lotta RONG on this thread

The drum machine and computer sequencer are so ubiquitous that actual drumming is just a niche.

time-travel post from 1986

Clicktracks, loops, and identikit drum sounds killed interest in drummers. The last indie / rock / alternative drummer I can think of who made me go "wow" was the Dismemberment Plan guy; that's a LONG time ago now. My favourite current drummer is Sebastian Rochford of Polar Bear and Acoustic Ladyland, but he's (ostensibly) a jazz drummer, so it doesn't really count. Matt Tong from Bloc Party was exciting for 45 minutes at the start of 2005.

I'd suggest bassists have gone the same way, too.

― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, November 14, 2008 4:58 AM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

way to project your boring music tastes on everyone

i've been playing guitar for 15+ years at this point but i get more excited about great drummers and drumming than great guitar-playing. maybe because i don't really understand it as much?

Name names then!

time-travel post from 1986

How is that a 'time travel post'? A very large proportion of modern music does not use live drumming. And a lot of the small amount which does use live drumming relies on looping and copying of small sections, plus editing to correct mistakes (which is partly what I meant by 'computer sequencing', not just programming a beat on a computer). Admittedly that change began to happen in the 1980s but it has intensified since then.

A very large proportion of modern music does not use live drumming.

this is not true

it's a time travel post in that people have been saying the exact same thing for 20 years without it ever being true

What? Hip Hop, R&B, dance music and chart pop is virtually ALL done without live drumming.

you really need me to spell this out for you? you are obviously coming at this from a western-centric (i'm going to guess british), popular-music-centric perspective. it's very myopic and very wrong to say that because a large proportion of the music that you and your peers listen to uses programmed beats that "a very large proportion of modern music does not use live drumming."

what about modern music in south america? africa? asia? what about jazz? rock? funk? country?

Name names then!

― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, November 14, 2008 8:15 AM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

off the top of my head, i thought the drumming on the national album from last year was pretty amazing - not flashy but he does lots of interesting little things.

Yes, it's true I'm coming from a western popular music perspective. But you will find a lot of other music uses programmed beats now.

OK, subvert the argument to your point by yanking it out of its unwritten context. The discussion starts with Mitch Mitchell. And Asia, jazz, and rock all get mentioned.

pat mahoney!

but again, i'm not a drummer so i don't really know what's "technically great" in drumming, just stuff that sticks out when i listen to it

jerry fuchs! nick atocha!

The National have never struck me as anything but boring.

cool! great opinion!

OK, subvert the argument to your point by yanking it out of its unwritten context. The discussion starts with Mitch Mitchell. And Asia, jazz, and rock all get mentioned.

― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, November 14, 2008 8:32 AM (22 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this was just in response to dubmill saying "A very large proportion of modern music does not use live drumming"

I'd argue that using a click track yanks you out of the realm of live drumming.

that's completely retarded

i don't know why i fucking bother

No, we don't either

You're getting a little dramatic about this, Nick.

i just feel too much

click track=metronome, which has been around for ages

I'd argue that using a click track yanks you out of the realm of live drumming.

yeah, this is pretty retarded

yeah but you can't do this with a click track

To state it like that is rather extreme but not 'retarded'. What IS 'retarded' is the failure to understand the more subtle point that is being made. Using a click track forces a drummer to follow an external tempo rather than his/her own internal one and those are two different things. It might be a perfectly valid tool for ensuring that the tempo throughout a song remains the same but it is also restrictive.

some dudes off the top of my head:

chris "daddy" dave - has played with kenny garrett, is in erykah badu's band now. he hasn't really made a statement on record yet (that i know of), but he's really the guy in terms of ability, new ideas, and tying together jazz + gospel chops + dilla/hip-hop.

joe tomino - dub trio. dude can play anything (and did in his last band, this avant jazz + beats sax trio called birth) but will more often hit one note that makes you "damn"

there are so many out there...lots of new orleans guys i love, friends of mine that are inspirational (like joe, who replaced whiney g., or dave from cougar), jazz dudes, etc. i agree that the bar for ability is just so high these days (if not in indie rock).

i agree that it can be restrictive but i don't agree that it "yanks you out of the realm of live drumming." do you still have a drummer? are you they still playing live?

playing with a click isn't restrictive at all if you're comfortable playing with a click. i mean, sure, some kinds of music are supposed to breathe more in terms of tempo and would sound stupid or weird if played to a click, but that's pretty obvious, right?

is a guitarist who's playing along with a drummer "yanked out of the realm of live guitar-playing"?

For some guitarists I've experienced, playing along with a drummer would be a novelty!

it forces the guitar player to play to an external tempo

For some guitarists I've experienced, playing along with a drummer would be a novelty!

― Ich Ber ein Binliner (Tom D.), Friday, November 14, 2008 9:52 AM (7 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

they're probably just playing by their "internal tempo" instead of the artificial external tempo imposed by the drummer

They're shit and they don't bother listening to the rest of the band, in other words

A lot of modern music from South America, Africa, Asia uses programmed beats.

what about a "vast majority" of it?

Errrrrrrrr, but nobody has used that phrase

a drummer being yanked out of the realm of live drumming:

ok how about a "very large proportion"?

just to recap, you guys are arguing that:
* a significant minority of the music being produced worldwide today uses live drumming
* playing along to a metronome turns a live drummer into a robot

Who guys?

the only person that can critique a drummer is another drummer. oh, and that dismemberment plan guy used to change tempo live all the time.

I'm not even involved in this argument but nobody mentioned majorities and minorities of anything, a "very large proportion" is not the same as a "majority"

I'm not even involved in this argument

lol

out of curiosity, are there jazz drummers who use click tracks? i'm not anti-click any more than i am anti-protools -- plenty of great stuff has been done with the assistance of both, and anyway as someone who loves hip-hop rhythm production so much, i'm hardly going to complain about the mechanization of rhythm. but it seems like it could be sorta antithetical to jazz playing.

chris "daddy" dave - has played with kenny garrett, is in erykah badu's band now. he hasn't really made a statement on record yet (that i know of), but he's really the guy in terms of ability, new ideas, and tying together jazz + gospel chops + dilla/hip-hop.

joe tomino - dub trio. dude can play anything (and did in his last band, this avant jazz + beats sax trio called birth) but will more often hit one note that makes you "damn"

ah, now this is the kind of stuff i'm curious about. will have to check them out. i agree about the level of technical prowess out there, but what i'm really interested in are people who are expanding the language. it's unrealistic to expect that expansion to be going on at the same rate as, say, the '50s-'70s, both because we're still absorbing all the possibilities that got opened then and because so much of the innovation of the last few decades has been electronic/digital/etc. but obviously there is still plenty of room for exploration. (including in the territory opened up by the electronic/digital producers. an obvious example is payton macdonald's aphex twin transcriptions for alarm will sound, but there must be other people playing around with that kind of thing.

playing with a click isn't restrictive at all if you're comfortable playing with a click

I think it certainly would have restricted Mitch Mitchell in the late 1960s.

I used to enjoy playing to a click. My own internal clock probably wasn't good enough (I tended to speed up or slow down unintentionally) so it gave me something to latch on to.

it forces the guitar player to play to an external tempo

That's actually true. I remember when I first played in a band it was explained to me, which I hadn't understood before, that the drums are what the rest of the band play to (in terms of tempo), so if I slowed down the rest of the band would follow that deceleration.

how could "a very large proportion" be anything but a "majority"?

Easily

If there was an even larger of proportion of something else over there

that guy from the bad plus is bad ass

That's actually true. I remember when I first played in a band it was explained to me, which I hadn't understood before, that the drums are what the rest of the band play to (in terms of tempo), so if I slowed down the rest of the band would follow that deceleration.

― dubmill, Friday, November 14, 2008 10:02 AM (47 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

so how is this any less "restrictive" than using a click track?

Because the click track cannot be signalled to slow down by someone other than the drummer.

I remember when I first played in a band it was explained to me, which I hadn't understood before, that the drums are what the rest of the band play to (in terms of tempo), so if I slowed down the rest of the band would follow that deceleration.

yeah that's part of what makes drumming fun. when i was young 'n' bratty i would sometimes fuck with the tempo just to sort of dare the rest of the band not to follow. like, "no, this time the bridge is going to be slow."

If there was an even larger of proportion of something else over there

― Ich Ber ein Binliner (Tom D.), Friday, November 14, 2008 10:04 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

then you'd have to be a pretty big moron to classify the first "something" as a "very large proportion," wouldn't you? or at least hyperbolic?

The restriction I was referring to was that imposed on the drummer.

then you'd have to be a pretty big moron to classify the first "something" as a "very large proportion," wouldn't you? or at least hyperbolic?

Tell that to the moron who said it!

i have been!

and you've been bitching about it!

for like 20 minutes!

congratulations!

who cares. the "live drumming is a niche" statement is virtually meaningless, anyway.

Let's settle for hyperbolic then

How is it meaningless? In 1970 all music that featured a drum beat used a live drummer. In 2008, a 'large proportion' or however you want to put it used a programmed beat instead of a live drummer.

Because what ISN'T a niche then, as far as live playing goes?

guitar?

don't hear live guitar played in a very large proportion of modern music, sorry

Guitars are still widely used. Not as widely as they used to be, but much more so than live drums.

Still a niche.

But MUCH less of one, rendering my original statement NOT 'meaningless'

i think another aspect of this topic is how antiquated the instrument is itself. there has been no innovation in the live drum set itself for a long time. the hardware, the skins, the cymbals--it's all very early 20th century still.

This is the most aspie pedant thread ever.

I honestly can't think of something that can be utilized during the recording process that one couldn't label as niche. But viewing live drumming simply as how it's involved in recorded popular music is a narrow view, no?

I'm really enjoying the fact that cutty is the most earnest voice in this thread (besides the reviver). Everyone else ranging from "somewhat difficult" to "can you see daylight from there?"

jesus christ, this thread is retarded

regardless of your anal-retentive opinions on the definition of the phrase "large proportion", there is no reason that reasonable people cannot have a meaningful discussion which starts with the premise that western popular music nowadays contains less live drumming and fewer high-profile drummers than it did in the 60s and 70s.

Exactly.

ha, laurel, because besides jordan, i dont think anyone else here is a drummer.

I'm a drummer.

i'm a drummer

I think it certainly would have restricted Mitch Mitchell in the late 1960s.

see my comment about music that would not be appropriate for a click. honestly i'm not a big mitch mitchell fan though, not to speak ill of the recently deceased or anything.

respect, bredren

but it's not like one cannot record without a clicktrack. if there were clicktracks back then and mitch felt restrained by them, he could just turn it off!

sup

I do at times feel restrained by a click, but that's because I'm not good enough.

Okay, so ... I'd agree that you don't see as many guitar bands now as in the past who work off the grid and play the kinds of sections where the musicians have to work through different tempos as a live unit, which, yes, is the kind of playing where people are more likely to notice the drummer's role.

I don't think that has a hell of a lot to do with click tracks -- I'd say it has to do with a bunch of stylistic stuff about music (and dancing), and the way that jammy, proggy, jazzy, or funky playing are considered by many rock types to be goofy, geeky, pretentious, or lame. There are a lot of things I'd use to explain this before getting to click tracks -- punk, the style of drum machines in pop music, the way multi-track recording steers people away from focusing on the interaction of the players, etc. ...

I remember when I first played in a band it was explained to me, which I hadn't understood before, that the drums are what the rest of the band play to (in terms of tempo), so if I slowed down the rest of the band would follow that deceleration.

I would like to take this opportunity to complain about the previous drummer in my band, who insisted that he played to MY tempo (I'm the guitar player) and that if something was too slow or too fast, it was because of me. Because, according to him, he never sped up or slowed down during a song, he played the same tempo throughout, depending on what tempo I counted off at the beginning.

This drummer also considered drum machines "the enemy" and refused to even physically TOUCH one, much less play along to a click track or a programmed beat.

I have a better drummer now.

can we talk about what weirdos drummers are?

whether or not they can play to a click

btw--all of you should be able to groove over a click to infinity

This can't officially be declared the worst thread of all time until I add my two cents, so I'll just say that "a very large proportion" does not equal "majority". A very large proportion of the world's people are Chinese. A very large proportion of C02 emissions comes from electricity generation. A very large proportion of recorded music does not use live drumming.

A very large proportion of recorded music does not have drums at all, so I guess the thread should be locked

hey guys i now have a basement and so have a place to play my acoustic set. so stoked. (before could only ever play electronic set that my friend leaves over at my place)

drummers are weird

NOW you can lock the thread

i think another aspect of this topic is how antiquated the instrument is itself. there has been no innovation in the live drum set itself for a long time. the hardware, the skins, the cymbals--it's all very early 20th century still.

agreed, although i think there is a lot of potential there in terms of sounds and setup. most drummers (myself included) just don't take advantage of it all that much.

i've been trying to stretch out into a lot of other things this year (timbales, playing for african dance classes, pandeiro, new orleans bass drum/snare drum still) and it's nice to not feel like being a drummer = playing drumset. it's just one thing.

plus, electronic sets have been getting better and better.

i don't think i've ever heard an electronic kit used to great effect, either recorded or live (live drums + triggering samples live, is a different story). at least post-1990.

come over this weekend then!
really though, you're right. i've never seen anyone try it live myself, and the youtube clips I've seen have feature drummers who are very talented but not my bag.

you all talk like the 60's and 70's were nothing but full of great drummers. aren't you forgetting RINGO STARR???

right now i've got the two seperate kits, acoustic vs electronic, but ideally the setup would be a hybrid. Mostly acoustic, replace one of my snares with an elec snare, do the double-bass drum thing but with one elec, and throw in an elec "cymbal" which could be used as a wildcard.

i'm not quite clear what you are saying about ringo. he is amazing.

um Ringo is a fantastic drummer

A very large proportion of his drumming is excellent

he had a lot of rings

A very large proportion of his digits had rings on them

is Ringo a "weirdo"? he seems like the normal Beatle!

Lennon was the weirdo surely?

Wait are you saying Ringo had rings on his toes too?!?!

No no, bells on his toes

the normal beatle sang "octopus's garden"?

xp he was the lonely chess weirdo, right? that is far from normal

his drumming might from time to time be excellent but surely not in the same sense as Mitch Mitchell or Bonham or Damon Che for that matter

you just compared ringo starr to damon che=you lose life

I didn't, this thread did

Bad thread

i listened to Manic Depression this morning--holy shit

i like threads about drummers even if they are bad (the drummers, or the thread)

guys i just do not see it wrt to mitch mitchell, sorry

i listened to Manic Depression this morning--holy shit

― Mr. Que, Friday, November 14, 2008 5:52 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I have no use for Damon Che's music. In contrast, I have been listening to and enjoying Ringo's drumming my entire life. Che loses.

I think you're a fool not to see it with Mitchell. that said I have been compared to him and didn't take it as a compliment

xpwe look nothing alike

damon che, zach hill, and brian chippendale walk into a bar...

I like Mitchell fine but I am kinda continually surprised at how commonly he is referenced as an archetypal rock drummer by other drummers. Bonham's kinda in a league of his own, he's up there with Art Blakey or Elvin Jones.

Fool, retard, moron... these drummer threads are no place or the faint of heart

or retards

bonham and mitchell are obv. in two separate categories

agreed about bonham, though i think both bonham & mitchell would have made terrible jazz drummers no matter how much they liked max roach & elvin jones.

oh i totally agree with that^^

drummers are weird tho

What do you mean?

http://www.kingsport-head.com/sydouilleetgurt/dotclear/images/mai2007/magma/vander-1970.jpg

haha yeah didn't mean to imply that Bonham woulda been a good jazz drummer, just that his impact and versatility and originality were akin to those of various jazz greats

was wondering how far we could go without mentioning Moonie

Robert Wyatt was good too, just saying, speaking of the Mitchell category

I don't know much at all about drumming in a technical sense, but it seems to me that average-listener responses to drummers are often stuck in that great=flashy thing that dropped off with guitarists a long time ago ... something that's understandable, since most people don't even really think about whether drummers or bass players are "good" unless those people do something that gets in your face a little about their skills.

^^ I say all this to explain why comparing Ringo Starr to Mitchell is kind of a weird game -- the way in which Ringo is a great drummer is a way I almost never see discussed with drummers, this kind of spare, precise, very musical way of fitting in. (Starr/Mitchell is like comparing a wild bop solo with a ballad, although most jazz guys will tell you the ballads are harder, right?) The first other drummer to mind who gets praised that way is Bill Berry from REM, actually -- not a flashy or superpowered or funky drummer, but someone who how to switch up a cymbal or play a simple fill in exactly the right places to make a song much, much better.

bill berry OTM

but... Ringo swings. Berry does not.

one drummer I love who is almost all swings/fills (but not in an overbearing "OH LOOKIT MY CHOPS!" way) and rarely plays anything straight and never gets mentioned anywhere (that I've seen) = Jody Stephens

swings

This is going back a second, but can you guys think of any pop/rock bands -- with an emphasis on the pop -- who go far off the grid and the steady backbeat, stretch tempos around, and do lots of loose interplay? Because the more I think about it, that's actually one of the qualities most likely to separate what people consider "pop" bands from "rock" bands -- rangy rock bands can do it, but singles and pop songs are expected to have the steady backbeat, and I can't think of much on the radio since Led Zep that really shifts around all loose like that.

are you classifying led zep as "pop" here?

a band that never released singles /= "pop" come on

isn't that more a matter of experimental/loose bands being way less likely to score a single and be considered pop these days?

and I consider "pop" to be comprised of concentrated bursts of carefully arranged and concisely executed elements so my answer would be "no", it pretty much just doesn't happen (barring the odd distinct time-change for a bridge or intro/outro sections)

x-post

xpost - are you guys missing the point there? Zep = last popular rock band with that looseness, after which that sort of "rock" has not much been able to command popular attention or radio play

Note that I'm not talking about multi-part song-suite tempo shifts, just looseness in the way things are organized. I don't know a ton of Zeppelin, but is it "Black Dog" that does a few bars of that heavy blues run and then just hangs there while Plant goes "ah ah ah" for a while? That's the kind of small-scale off-the-grid looseness I mean, something that's hard for me to imagine with lots of pop-rock bands these days. I can imagine it from someone stadium-sized, but surprisingly I can't think of any U2 singles that do it.

radiohead "paranoid android"

time changes, tempo shifts, general headfuckery. pop?

xpost - yeah, Jordan, partly, but I think part of what I'm asking is why this kind of instrumental "looseness" can't be reconciled with pop, and whether it would be possible for some bright person out there to make accessible pop music that contains that stuff. Like I said, I think stadium-level rock bands could -- I also suspect any low-level indie-rock band that could reintroduce that looseness in a poppy way could clean up on it!

Note that I'm not talking about multi-part song-suite tempo shifts, just looseness in the way things are organized.

oh well, scratch that

White Stripes maybe but I'm trying to think of any of their hits that have such elements.

but in general, no nabisco as a rule it doesn't happen.

i'm a little confused at this "looseness" you speak of

(cutty, I'd almost say "The Bends" has more of that off-grid looseness than "Paranoid Android" -- and it's more pop -- but yeah, Radiohead can and often do fit the space I'm talking about)

sounds like you're talking a lot more about recording styles changing? like, bands recording together live (and hearing bonham click his sticks to bring the band back in after those breaks in "black dog") vs the emphasis on studio perfection?

xp

Radiohead is not a pop band

neither is led zeppelin

he was referring to rock music that is played as popular music

white stripes is a good answer

lol shakey u getting too hung up on the word "pop"

Jordan - yes, that's what I meant about multi-track recording changing people's approaches, way up above. (Also, possibly, more people writing songs individually, rather than developing them in groups?) I'm somewhat surprised that few poppy indie bands shoot for that loose-and-live thing. Although the mention of White Stripes is totally relevant here as one band who have.

Also yeah, sorry I can't really pinpoint what I mean by "loose," but maybe one good shorthand involves moments where instead of counting off a change, you have to just watch for a hand signal or listen for a cue (like stick-clicks) -- that's a definitely moment of no-grid looseness. (Also just the structure of something like "Black Dog," where a lot of the song takes place in these indeterminate hanging-and-waiting spaces.)

for some reason i want to say the killers although i have no idea why

Haha possibly now we need to have a long conversation about Ringo's drumming on Beatles pop songs versus "looser" more blues-based Beatles songs...

any excuse to mention the killers i guess

i wanna hold yr hand vs. yer blues

cutty, i thought of you last night when i went to a Subtle show even though in my head i was thinking of Why?. i mixed them up and it turns out Subtle is kind of annoying.

I'm somewhat surprised that few poppy indie bands shoot for that loose-and-live thing.

this makes me think of the contrived bits of that one recent Spoon album, where they leave (or splice) in bits of studio conversation, dropping sticks at the end of a song, etc. to manufacture that sense of looseness.

what about Weezer...? I kinda hate them and don't know their catalog well enough to judge though.

why?'s usage of drums is pretty amazing in their live show

the only thing i can say about weezer is that their drummer is from the less is more school. he's got impeccable taste and technique in his fills and trills, etc, but comes across as pretty straightforward...

yeah, i wanted to see singing drummers and everyone playing aux perc and vibes. and one dude in subtle is pretty amazing on the mpc, but that's about it.

This is going back a second, but can you guys think of any pop/rock bands -- with an emphasis on the pop -- who go far off the grid and the steady backbeat, stretch tempos around, and do lots of loose interplay?

All Who songs from 1964-1969.

hey, remember the drumming on the first Burning Airlines record? that shit was killing. definitely drummer's drummer type stuff, but the parts were worked out pretty meticulously and really elevated the songs.

I haven't listened to much recent Weezer, but their whole core as a band early on was this perfectly gridded 8th-note dun-dun-dun-dun thing, and that really suited them, so ...

Why? is really great with rhythm in general -- those last two albums are seriously favorites of mine. And yeah, Spoon always gets talked about as if they're all loose and rangy, but the underlying beat is always steady as hell!

chris "daddy" dave - has played with kenny garrett, is in erykah badu's band now. he hasn't really made a statement on record yet (that i know of), but he's really the guy in terms of ability, new ideas, and tying together jazz + gospel chops + dilla/hip-hop.

I think one of the more interesting and mostly slept-on developments in drumming in the last decade or two has been the way live drummers have picked up on feels that were originally developed on or made possible by drum machines and samplers. I think people like Dilla, DJ Shadow, Timbaland, The Neptunes, etc. have had a big influence on live drummers. Chris Dave and also Kariem Riggins are two good examples, although neither is really associated with a blockbuster band.

I guess maybe Qwestlove would be the highest profile drummer of this kind?

i think another aspect of this topic is how antiquated the instrument is itself. there has been no innovation in the live drum set itself for a long time. the hardware, the skins, the cymbals--it's all very early 20th century still.

there's really been a lot of evolution, just maybe not in as obvious a way as, say, the shift from acoustic to amplified guitar, bass and keys. the way people play drums now is a lot different from the way they were played in the pre-electric era. early jazz playing had to emphasize a heavy beat because that's all you could really hear of it. amplification opened up the possibilities of the drumset. and the kind of hardware that's evolved to take advantage of that is voluminous and kind of mind-blowing. as a hack drummer who's never had more than your basic kick-snare-toms set-up (ok, i did have rototoms for a while), i find the percussion section of your average drum store pretty intimidating. there's so much stuff. and sure, when i saw buddy rich he just had a totally stripped down set, so it's not like you need all the doodads. but somebody like stewart copeland shows the almost orchestral range a good drummer can get out of a massively stocked kit.

all stewart copeland needs is a fricken hi hat and garbage can

it's all he needs, but he can do more things when he has more things to do them on.

(reminds me a little of when i interviewed nels cline, who said he was a purist for years about not using effects. and then he did a session where there were a bunch of different kinds of pedals he'd never used before, and he realized there was this whole universe of sound he was ignoring.)

I think one of the more interesting and mostly slept-on developments in drumming in the last decade or two has been the way live drummers have picked up on feels that were originally developed on or made possible by drum machines and samplers.
Yeah, even in a jazz context this is being done, by people like Marcus Gilmore and Johnathan Blake, for example. And then there is Jo Jo Mayer, who plays like Buddy Rich and a drum machine rolled into one.

Ha, I found a funny quote about Jo Jo Mayer here

I think one of the more interesting and mostly slept-on developments in drumming in the last decade or two has been the way live drummers have picked up on feels that were originally developed on or made possible by drum machines and samplers

totally agreed. and i think it's becoming way more common (and less gimmicky), drummers dealing with that stuff because that's what they listen to. goes both ways too, w/karriem riggins doing tracks for erykah badu and all that.

i highly recommend jojo mayer's dvd!

Secret Weapons For The Modern Drummer? I saw him in the audience once at a Dafnis Prieto show- he was checking out the competition.

karriem:

(i really like that dvd too)

(and jazz dayz: )

whoa this thread

The last time I was in a Guitar Center I marveled at a kit with a bass drum that had a smaller (~8in?) drum attached to the front head. I didn't play the kit or ask what it was, and I can't find anything on the in but if it's not innovating, it was at least completely new to me at that time. I can't finda pic on GC's site. Anyone seen something like that before?

I think backing up Jimi Hendrix is a big part of why people are high on Mitch Mitchell. I mean, playing with someone like that would make anyone better. I like his playing a lot.

This thread has also made me feel totally lazy wrt practicing and playing in general... I need to find new people to play with :(

Oh and playing to a click is no big deal, though I used to be of the opinion that it was soulless and all that in my younger and stupider days. I found it useful in recording, especially piecemeal projects where it wasn't always possible to have people in the same rooms at the same time. I can imagine it being useful in high-pressure live situations as well. For the process of creating music, however, it can be stifling.

it's a sub (middle of the page here), i've seen them but no idea if it does any good.

Oh, OK. It was a lot smaller diameter though, smaller than a piccolo snare, and not as deep. Probably just a different version of the same thing.

I've always kind of wanted a cocktail kit.

i wish i still had any kit at all. had to leave it behind when we moved to ny. i get the jones out a little with my acoustic guitar (which i'm even waaaay more limited on than i am on drums), but it's not as gratifying.

been thinking about getting a cajon drum, just for the hell of it. it can double as a stool, so it's easier to justify the space consumption.

http://img3.musiciansfriend.com/dbase/pics/products/regular/9/6/4/371964.jpg

those kerriam riggins videos are great. especially the first one because of how much he's willing to violate the beat, but still maintains it or at least the idea of it.

also i forgot to mention jim white -- who i like with the dirty three, but maybe even more with nina natasia because he's finding openings in a place (sensitive singer-songerwriter genre) that they aren't immediately obvious. gotta wait til about the 90-second mark here, but it gets interesting:

nina nastasia, that is...

I'm a drummer. And I'm surprised we've gotten this far without discussing the innovations in drumming in the last 20 or 30 years that have been brought on by extreme metal. Someone like Pete "Commando" Sandoval from Morbid Angel is doing stuff that nobody even dreamed of before he did it.

And if you think that stuff is too metric and soulless (though obviously FULL of time changes and complexity), then listen to what Clive Burr did on Iron Maiden "Killers" or Simon Phillips on Judas Priest's "Sin After Sin" or anything Dirge Rep played on in Enslaved.

There are a lot of people pushing rock to new dynamic places that are being ignored because of the genre of music they play.

And Igor Cavalera from Sepultura, has brought in tons of different native Brazilian styles and instruments and guests literally from the rain forest.

There are so many more I could list.

I am a drummer on the video game Rock Band

i forgot about jim white, he's kind of the definition of an awesome but "loose" drummer. just look at how floppy he is

also he reminds me a little of ILX's own Eazy, who does not play the drums

Jesse, you should go see Francisco Mela play with Joe Lovano this weekend, with Esperanza Spaulding on bass. I know I should.

the innovations in drumming in the last 20 or 30 years that have been brought on by extreme metal.

totally true. not my personal favorite style, but it can be pretty amazing.

xpost:

i'd love to. but of course i won't. (i've still never even seen paul motian, and i keep saying i'm going to before he dies or quits or something.)

totally true. not my personal favorite style, but it can be pretty amazing.

Anyway, going back to the original post, now that we've all heard at least some jazz, some metal, some reggae and __fill in xhuxk0r/stencil list of overlooked genres here__ it's pretty hard to imagine the days when the most adventurous think you heard on the radio was Hal Blaine playing some quarter note triplets going into the chorus of a Ronettes song. Which of course is one of my favorite drum sounds of all, just saying.

My favorite drum solo is still Ringo on Abbey Road. He gets it.

I can't find the thread where people were disputing the notion that drumming was a good workout, so here:

Want a great workout? Try drums

(I know it's hard to believe that people on the internet would make bold counter-claims based solely on anecdotal evidence, but trust me on this)

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/10/3/1286116742572/19th-Commonwealth-Games---004.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItZyaOlrb7E&feature=player_embedded#!

nice hair you lead singing dicklick

I'd argue that using a click track yanks you out of the realm of live drumming.

― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, 14 November 2008 14:35 (2 years ago)

omg wtf

I'd argue that using a click track yanks you out of the realm of live drumming.

― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, 14 November 2008 14:35 (2 years ago)