New York City- classic or dud?

plus every foreign band i want to see plays new york three times and doesn't play philadelphia ONCE (i'm equidistant between NYC and phila, and it's much easier to go to shows in phila); fuck that. fuck new york, hasn't done a good thing since _no new york_.

It's classic, the most classic city around. Sure, it can be full of cosmopolitan snobs. It's also full of every other kind of person you possibly want. There is virtually nothing you can't do in NYC, and what you can't do here is within very reasonable distance. It's the center of the world, don't you forget it.

IT IS ALSO STIFLINGLY HUMID IN SUMMER AND GETS SNOW AND CRAP LIKE THAT IN WINTER. Having lived in the state for three years, I am justified in my complaints.

Ergo dud, with blame falling on those damn Dutch bastards who bought the island without knowing any better.

But, I'm gonna save up and buy a place here in 2 years. By the time it's all paid off, I should be able to sell it and retire somewhere else. Rent's just getting out of control. It's going to be simply GHETTO and RICH and no in-between soon enough. Classic in a very evil way, I say.

When I go out there, I'm going to stay at the Four Seasons. Boo-yah.

Snow! An example of nature's rich bounty that I have sworn never to actually live in or near again.

New York = skanky drugged-up-hooker-shooting-heroin-between-her-toes dud. Yes, even the nice parts. I don't CARE if everything supposedly happens there.

But New York City--why did I ever leave you? Well, maybe cause I was tired of paying $1000 a month for a dumpy little closet crammed with books and records and clothes. And the nightlife wasn't what it used to be. I thought the wide open spaces of Southern California would do a neo-nature lover like me good.

And it did work out that way, it's just that there's no city in the world as exciting as New York and I really think I need some excitement in my life these days.

San Francisco's OK, it reminds me more of Boston than NY. Much better record stores than NY or LA, though. I agree, Sean.

Don't even drag Chicago into this, Ally. Please. I've already got a girlfriend moving to New York in two days, spending four times what I pay in rent for an apartment approximately as big as my bathroom, and now she's somehow convinced me to go out there and visit, just to see if my uninformed prejudices somehow vanish and I decide that I want to live there. But you know what? I like Chicago. A lot. And in order for me to decide that I'd rather spend $2000 a month to live in what is currently my bathroom, it would have to be demonstrated to me that New York is four times as cool as Chicago is -- or, actually, cooler, in that it'd have to be cool enough to justify my going into a whole different line of work just to afford an apartment and then dragging myself out of said apartment because it'd be so damn crappy and enduring night after night of going out to bars with millions of annoying people who can't go home either because they live in apartments the size of bathrooms. And I just don't think it could be that cool. I just refuse to believe that.

And yet I'm still going to go out there, for some reason. You see what happens when you love people?

Arthur - I THINK I've been there, once. Small li'l place, I think. Whenever I went to New London, it was to go to the Secret Theatre / Temporary Autonomous Zone (a non-profit art-space that used to host live music, and still puts on plays every so often). And perhaps the El-n-Gee (a seedy li'l "punk" club, usually filled with the types of folks being discussed and dismissed on the "emo" thread), once in a blue moon.

Of course, CT is a place where kids grow up drunk and stoned. Pardon my generalization. People here are all sorts of screwed up, though - they riot at DAVE MATTHEWS BAND concerts.

That's easy for you to say, Ally, considering you work in real estate. :)

Besides, that's a pretty non-functional argument when it comes to developing a general picture of a city -- you could live in a 10,000 square foot penthouse for $1 a month, and that still wouldn't change the fact that rental in Manhattan is significantly more expensive than in any other major city in the U.S. (with the possible exception of San Francisco), mainly because of (a) industries like mine which are completely Manhattan-bound, and (b) people like you who convince everyone that New York is so great that they should move there and increase rental demand even more.

I don't doubt that New York is a lovely, lovely place. But I can't really think of anything I'm particularly interested in that New York has and Chicago doesn't, and I can't imagine that anything about New York is so superior to Chicago that it makes up for the expense and annoyance and provincialism. Because let's face it: New York is, paradoxically, the most provincial city in the U.S.

Ok, so how about the people? Everyone thinks NYC is so rude, but living in SF, I prefer New Yorkers. The average person here is passive-agressive as hell, nobody makes eye-contact with you, yet paradoxically, everyone's all full of themselves and smug. Give me a forthright New Yorker anyday. I think I'd still rather live here though.

Anyhow, I don't like NYCers as rude people stereotype because I don't find it to be true. Fast moving, yes. Which means that they aren't going to strike up a conversation with you standing on the subway or something, unless they are insane and/or unemployed. If you look lost, they aren't going to offer help. If you ask nicely, they'll help though. I've never been to a city with people so willing to help people cross the street, give out directions (correct ones!), tell how to get to places, give advice. Everyone is very friendly. People just mistake natural defenses as being rude, generally because they are from hick towns and aren't used to having to have any defenses.

Dave-Yeah, it's a little olde tavern, has something to do with Eugene O'Neill lore. I missed the whole Secret Theatre scene but I used to hang out at the El 'n' Gee when it was filled with the types of folks being discussed and dismissed on the "pub rock" thread, if there ever was one. There was also a big blooze scene when I was a teen which I found completely repulsive. Roomful of Blues at the Shaboo in Willimantic! Barf! Emo makes much more sense.

Was there really a riot at a Dave Matthews concert in CT? Awesome!

And having lived in a redneck asshole town - no, people in hick towns do NOT help each other as much as NYers do. It's just simply untrue.

And you are coming here again why, NS?

Being defensive isn't some great thing and neither is "street smarts." I'd rather be in a "hick town" where people aren't so jumpy and "defensive" (I would also describe them as OFFENSIVE). Who is stupider, a relaxed guy or a stressed out "defensive" guy? Don't get me wrong, though. I like NY. I just don't like the whole "center of the world" thing that goes on in people's heads here. It's the "I'm better, me first" thing everywhere you go.

BTW, The Stepford Wives was filmed in part in my boyhood hometown of Darien, Ct.

Well, 2 summers ago SF was in the midst of dot-communism, and was completely unbearable. It's a pretty segregated city, with Chinatown, hispanic areas, black areas, gay areas, but it's also really small, so you can go from one area to another pretty quickly (not unlike Boston, really). Oakland IS a lot better place as far as I'm concerned; but I'd rather live in Sacramento than SF. There's nothing functional about SF's "charms"; most of the place feels more like a museum than a city.

3. Berlin

2. New York

1. Tokyo

Compared with the neon glow of Shinjuku, Times Square looks positively antique. There are no cafes in New York quite as fantastic as Tokyo cafes, the cinemas and record stores in Tokyo display much more interesting stuff, magazines are better, the youth here is better educated visually, the girls are to die for. It's safe, and the Pacific Ocean (with both surfing and temples) is 45 minutes away at Kamakura. It's like SF and New York combined.

Where New York trumps Tokyo is the art world.

I mean, if you want proof, count the number of New Yorkers on the board versus the number of everywhere-elsers on the board, and note that there really isn't a huge stress/annoyance/happiness differential between the varied groups.

For the record, the entirety of New York City, not just glamourous Manhattan, is classic.

New York is tranquility itself. The traffic is stately and placid compared to London's (is it fear of lawsuits? Why are US drivers so mandrax-calm?) and Tokyo's subway sardines make New York's look like business class. New Yorkers possibly get more upset because of their different sense of personal space ('If you can read my Times, you're too close...')

And, Momus, I didn't realize this thread was called NYC vs. Tel Aviv.

Let's see the inherent contradiction in your statement: you first make a big deal about how you can't judge NYC on "less than 5 years" (I assume in response to the posters who have said they've only lived here for a three years or less), then pointed out that because someone had a nice vacation in another city of a few weeks, it proves people are less stressed or angry or rude in those places? Riiiiight.

None of my friends had negative, stressful vacations in NYC. Two of them moved here based entirely on week-long vacations that were so great they decided this was the place to be.

Is it true that subways in Japan have people to shove you into the trains?

I'm going to restrain myself from commenting on the San Francisco comments except to say: please.

haha, I am wearing the expensive black ass-pants in this family.

From the G train!

Yes, but in spite of 9/11, it's wrong -- Los Angeles is the CCOTIA cf. Nathanael West, Steve Erickson, the end of Gravity's Rainbow, the Doors, Charles Manson, Miracle Mile, Lew Archer's "There's nothing wrong with Southern California that a rise in the ocean level wouldn't cure," and Phil Ochs'/St. Etienne's "The World Began In Eden And Ended in Los Angeles." Either that or Tokyo, cf. Godzilla.

And yet I'm still going to say Classic.

- Job gets crappier
- Go out with girl only to get dumped
- Hate roommates/apartment

Yep, still love it here.

And if California slides into the ocean
like the mystics and statistics say it will
I predict this hotel will be standing
until I pay my bill.

I've never met a city I didn't like, really. There's too much stuff to get bored, even if it's just looking at the architecture and determining from it, from people's gait, from demographics, etc., something of the city's history and culture. The only city that's become even slightly mundane to me is Chicago--which is stupid, since it's such a huge place that even after 25 years of living here (with a significant 5-year interruption) I haven't seen even a small fraction of it.

Or maybe that's just me in Polyanna mode.

I am uncollected and unrecycled city Trash.

The only thing I hate about New York is all the bicyclists

You're lucky that the Dutch didn't really make it New Amsterdam then.

and I hate yappy little rat-dogs too. other than that i love new york.

but what about Dorothy?

I was a lowper myself.

That's what you do when you go to the men's room!

In Brooklyn they walk 'em. So there are always yappy little rat-dogs underfoot wherever I go, making me nervous.

ANyway, being yelled at by a carny is like the greatest thing that could possibly happen, my god I wish I could get yelled at by a carny.

Has anyone ever gone in the WORLD'S SMALLEST PERSON!!!!!!!!!! booth at Coney Island? Don't. You walk in to this room and around this divider and there's this tiny woman in a wheelchair that's on top of a table. She looks at you. You suddenly feel horrified by the fact that you paid $1 to see this and that she's two feet away and looking right in your eyes. She says, "Can you spare some change? I'm saving up for an electric wheelchair," and motions her nubby arm to a jar on the table. You are looking around, trying to pretend as if you came into this booth looking for a bathroom or a friend. You quickly fumble in your pockets and dump some change in the jar and make a quick exit. The friend that came in with you says, "Fuck that! I paid a dollar!" and continues to stare. You go outside and tell your friends that were too scared to enter that they HAVE to go in. "It's amazing," you say, and you feel some satisfaction in knowing they will share your horror.

http://homepage.mac.com/ric79/IMG/WACS.jpg

YOU HAVE NO IDEA how warm and loved you just made me feel, Felicity. Also proud that someone might think I'm a New Yorker. I actually live in the midwest but you can be sure we'll be FAPing it up in ass-pants on my next visit.

NYC is my holy grail but I'll never live there because I love my boyfriend just a little more, and he's anti-NYC. I grew up in the country and have had enough of that shit for a lifetime (I don't even go to Central Park when I visit) but I still like the city-provincialism of NYC.

There is also a certain New York "ironic" manner of speaking that I think wears on me a little. It is superficially amusing and I like it in a way but I worry that irony slips into cowardly earnestness at some point and that's a little disillusioning. Perhaps in such cases I am just reacquainting myselves with people whose characteristics I don't want to adopt. (Present company excepted, of course.)

But don't get me wrong. I am unconditionally thrilled to be back here.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004RF9J.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

It's a great city. I'm glad I lived there and it's fun to visit.

But I wouldn't live there again if you paid me a million dollars.

I am convinced that Prehistoric Man is the precursor to Ross.

On the "provincial" crap running through this thread. What makes we New Yorkers, who live in a city of 8 million, and a metro area of 18 million (about 6% of the US?), that is one of the 2 or 3 most diverse parts of the country in terms of the origin of the inhabitants, more "provincial" than people who live in far less populated areas with populations that are far more homogenous and far less media-savvy, per capita?

Ally: "We have as our guest here tonight Ms. Felicity Redwell. (shifts to face guest) Felicity, what do you think of New York City?"

Felicity: "I love it but in my darker hours I worry that it is wasted on New Yorkers."

Ally: (with an exceptionally earnest countenance) "Why?"

Felicity: "Well, I think some people start to take the wonderfulness of it for granted after living here a while."

Ally: (nods as if considering this statement very deeply)

Felicity: "Life must be awesome when people concern themselves with some of the incredibly fine differences of every aspect of urban life. Mea culpa."

(audience laughs)

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000063K2W.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

*this may not be true.

...my only experience in NYC was just a mellow weekend during Easter, when no one was around, and the weather finally became nice. I liked it. I'd like to visit again.

But all my friends here who used to live in NYC tell me sooo many things that make me wonder why in f'ing hell anyone would want to live there... mainly all having to do with the high cost of everything and the only marginal increase in quality for your buck.. basically.

The plentiful public transportation options are really nice, totally. But sadly, my career choice as a software engineer working in games and/or audio is a) not the best match for NYC's job market, and b) requires me to have a car, whether I like it or not, due to the potentially weird hours.

I'm sorry, that's totally rude, I haven't had any sleep yet.

I CLAIM ROSALIND RUSSELL AS ME.

There's ice skating, a zoo, a duck pond, a reservoir, free concerts in summer, hot dog and ice cream vendors, drug dealers around every corner... I mean what more could one want?

Rapists? Yeah, we've got that.

DC & Boston: I sometimes feel like these cities are a little full of themselves. I always get a sense while visitng these places that a) there are less "hip" people and b) they hold their hipness over everyone else's heads. NYC feels less like that to me because, really, nobody gives a shit about the pretentious airs you put on.

Chicago: I visited once, to see U of Chicago. I liked the nieghborhood, and if I had had the brains to get in there, that is where I would be. The most amazing moment was flying in at night... the grid system there is so tight that the whole city looks like an illuminated checker board.

SF: Don't know it well enough to say anyting.

LA: I just finished "City of Quartz" and I am now feeling that if I were to move there I would somehow feel complicit in the bullshit goes on there. Of course, my standards for myself are too high like that, so I don't blame LA ILXors.

Anyways, NYC: Its the only place I feel like I fit in without having to change the parts of myself that I like.

(but only if you're stupid enough to go jogging alone at night)

Hey now! We are the flies in the ointment out here. ;-)

it seems like one of those ends vs means questions, and i fall in the middle i guess. i would never not go to an art museum, for example, just because it may have been built under unfortunate circumstances...

Actually I think Davis is one of those authors who secretly gets off on the very things he's condemning--which actually isn't too bad a starting point for an investigative journalism, but it's not a good ending point.
Fair enough... I tend not to be bothered... I am not relying on Davis to actually fix the problems he writes about ;-)

Yeah, it's funny how that is. I got a lot of weird reactions from New Yorkers at first due to my constant inapproprate eye contact. It was a habit from LA. I mean, you just naturally scope eveyone out and don't even try to disguise it. I didn't even realize how bad I had gotten until I was driving an out-of-town friend around and when I stopped at a light my friend said, "You were totally checking that guy out, weren't you?" and I knew exactly which random pedestrian my friend was talking about.

In New York that same amount of eye contact means "I am going to date and/or kill you" so I guess I stopped doing it as much.

Ally can I email you with a few questions?

I have a crush.

Actually, being the perverse mofo that I am, I'm tempted to put it more crudely. But I'd better not.

Don't know what it's like in Boston, but DC hipsters, at one level or another, envy New Yorkers. Washington may be on the east coast, but culturally its middlebrow Midwestern. So much of the local media and retail seems to be targeted at middle-aged mid-level managerial types who actually are interested in reading about wheat subsidies. And to add insult to injury, we have to pay damn near NYC prices for these boring films, clothes, food, apartments, etc.

You've slept on the pier?

East Village >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> West Village

those who detested [PR's] views or attacked it as "snobbish," "highbrow," and "New York provincial" (at times a euphemism for something not at all attractive)

which I'm assuming -- since this is Partisan Review -- means that unattractive "something" is anti-Semitism? Anyone know of any such resonances with that complaint? Cause obviously I think twice about phrasing it that way if I were aware of it echoing anything majorly disagreeable.

a) you remembered this whole discussion enough to revive complete with blockquote citation!
b) like anyone here would ever think that of you
c) you may be the smartest person I know.

I always assumed NY provincialism to mean either the downtown "I never go above 14th St" attitude or the attitude exemplified by Saul Steinberg's "View of the World from Ninth Avenue." But indeed it may mean something more sinister, you never know with some people.

(I love this picture)

Let's not forget the blue-collar provincialism in the outer boroughs, and I don't just mean "the parts of Downtown Brooklyn and Astoria where all the art students are moving." There's still a great deal of racism and xenophobia ("stay out of our neighborhood" etc) in places like Bensonhurst, Crown Heights, parts of the Bronx.

Teeny, the reasons I remember this thread are sort of funny but mostly boring, but anyway I just remembered liking that idea -- New York as provincial -- and when I came across that sentence reading this book, it connected. I'm not worried that anyone would misinterpret what I said, and obviously everyone here was talking about it in pretty much the way you say. I'm just curious about where it comes from -- I mean, if I ever want to talk about it, I at least want to be aware whether it was ever used to hide something else, and whether that fact is remembered by anyone these days. (My guess: not really.)

Take out the "dangerous" and maybe the "elites," and I don't find that conflation offensive in the least.

"Where are you from?"

"I just moved up here from San Diego."

"That's NOT a San Diego accent."

"Well, uh, I'm originally from New York."

"What part?"

"Upstate," I said. "Syracuse."

"Syracuse, huh? Hmmm. I guess that's a real place."

I would come to find that Zoom hates New Yawk City New Yorkers like a Klansman hates people of color. A curious bigotry to be sure, but a considerable one to Zoom. I briefly wondered if "New Yorker" isn't code for "Jew," but I decided that I was just being paranoid.

I mean, I think there are definitely plenty of people who do use "New York" as a (pejorative) code for "Jewish," and beyond that I think the usual conservative bashing of New York has lingering hints of bashing it as a "Jewish" city (and also as an urban city, and an immigrant city, and a gay city and a socially liberal city and plenty of other stuff conservatives have issues with).

(xpost)

It is, Jody, though that's not always fair. Other cities have a lot going for them, esp. in the culture department, but an artist or writer from Chicago is never going to get the breaks that a New York artist or writer get, just because of NY's cache. It's frustrating sometimes that NY remains important just because people already think it's important.

Hey I didn't say they didn't!

That map predates Tony Danza by several months.

nabisco, wherever did you pick up this odd habit of attributing prejudices you claim not to share to people who are not part of the discussion? And since when is calling a city Jewish per se "bashing" it? The element of Jewishness has nothing to do with the other elements you label as pejorative.

Anyway, as I said to Kenan, my whole point is that the element of Jewishness has nothing to do with those other ostensibly pejorative elements. The problem I was talking about is that there seems to be a small contingent of Americans for whom they are conflated.

I'm not sure I like the "claim not to share" in that sentence, either.

Like I also said: that NYRB quote I was talking about is from 1962, and I'd agree with Jody that the emphasis on Judaism in that whole formula has surely declined -- just as the emphasis on homosexuality has probably expanded.

More snake, less me sounding defensive, more Felicity explaining why she just implied something so not-nice about me!

And by the way, nabisco, I am only picking on you because I like you and respect you. And I'm in a bad mood because my firm just got taken over by a bunch of Southern Republicans.

I'm not trying to "presume those associations as a given" or "keep reintroducing them" -- so far as I know this isn't anything I've ever really mentioned before. I just think this type of thinking exists for some people, and I think it gets hidden behind supposedly-innocent comments about vague things cities, and I don't like that. A lot of culture warriors spend an inordinate amount of time talking shit about New York, and since it's not the pavement or the streetlamps they're critizing, I think it's worth wondering about what they're trying to imply, what they're really criticizing. The fact that I've "introduced this into the discourse" simply has to do with the fact that I recognized that one phrase in an essay I was reading, and I was curious about whether Howe meant what I think he meant.

In regards to large cities -- would you regard any one of the Top 10 Most Populous Cities in the U.S. as a "large city" or just a "city"? If the former, then I already live in a large city and maybe I shouldn't feel so awkward. If the latter, then I'll feel even more awkward, like I'm living in an environment that just attempts to be a city without actually succeeding.

Sometimes I get these fleeting feelings of wanting to live in NYC. My heart is with London and I would love to have a home there, but I know realistically that it would be a very hard sell on everyone I'm connected with to move to a foreign country so far away. NYC would be an easier arrangement, plus it's another megacity, but as I've said before, I do feel intimidated by the people there and am not as familiar with the general atmosphere as I am with the general atmosphere of England (note: my best friend in the entire world is from England and I've been an Anglophile since I was three). How are newbies treated there? What should one keep in mind if one were in a similar situation?

Oh yes, and the worst stereotyping I've ever experienced happens to be from people who come from... CHICAGO. They are in constant amazement that we who come from TX not only have electricity and phone service, but also have Internet access, computer companies, many technological firms, and are basically the same type of people you can find all over the country. They also think of us as country yokels, which is one of my pet hates. I swear, if someone tries the "yee haw" introduction at me or asks me where my cowboy boots are one more time, I will become psychotic and WILL be able to claim temporary insanity as my defense in the future murder trial.

It's very honest of you to admit that you equated "not at all attractive" with "Jewish," even as a question, because I never would have made that association in a million years but maybe I live in a dream world. Of course this reflects our differing backgrounds and current mileux, which does furnish the potential for a dicussion of interest, but speaking in generalities ordinarily results in tautologies.

H, I guess the best way for me to illustrate this, is how would you feel if someone saw you and said "Wow! I didn't recognize you! You must have lost a ton of weight!" Would you consider that a compliment?

(oh and hi, Innocent.)

But like I said, I asked. If I'm completely misreading Howe, and you think he means something else, or that his "for" points in the other direction, please just tell me what you think it might be.

As for now: it may take an idiot to share many of Pat Robertson's views, but there would appear to be plenty of idiots available for the job.

You're right, I am just being deliberately mean. Sorry, I told you I was in a bad mood. I must have been confused when you said "But yeah, the suggestion I get is that "New York provincial" was being used as code for Semitic," which I see now was a typo on your part.

But the slippage can also be used benignly, if you're willing to accept that something benign can easily slip into something not-benign. In certain contexts I feel it's even redundant to use both "New York" and "Jewish"--when someone's Jewishness has already been alluded to/suggested, talking about their "New York accent" should suffice to suggest the rest. (NB: I am Jewish and maybe some of this evidences a certain Jewish conversational habit.) But when I talk like this I'm often given a bit of a start when I realize how quickly that association can barrel down a path toward the sort of ideas expressed by Robertson etal. So actually I try to curb it.

I myself use "New York provincialism" every now and then (less so than when I was younger). I inherited this from my mom (also a Jew) who would joke about people who had never been West of the Hudson, and about "coastals" who considered everything else a "flyover state" (hi, Momus). She and I meant something like a New York chauvanism, an unbecoming pride, but also certain intellectual habits of talking down to "the people" and in only framing every issue in this sort of hyper-bohemian, high-density context (hi again, Momus). But I use this phrase less and less now b/c since high school I have met more people from New York, and my opinions about NY have been nuanced to the point where I can't hold just prejudices.

That was longwinded.

Anyway I hear New York-as-Jewish all the time, mostly in a positive sense (à la Jody). But sometimes I think that we can't indulge in certain positive stereotypes without lending some unexpected fuel to the negative ones...

Sorry for all the x-posting.

If I talk a lot about those kinds of issues here, it's probably just because they interest me, a lot -- and because this is an environment where I feel like people share the same broad values about them. I hope I don't talk about them too much, and I'm sorry if I do.

And as far as opening a can of worms with this one, I want to restate: I am not at all confident that Howe was saying what I suspect he was! That's why I was asking here. I only addressed these attacks and stereotypes to explain what I thought he might be getting at -- he could mean something else entirely. I guess I can understand why my delineating those attitudes may have seemed like I was unnecessarily dredging them up, but I was just trying to explain the sort of thing I was talking about.

Allison: I'm in the midst of doing my thesis.
Alvy Singer: On what?
Allison: Political commitment in twentieth century literature.
Alvy Singer: You, you, you're like New York, Jewish, left-wing, liberal, intellectual, Central Park West, Brandeis University, the socialist summer camps and the, the father with the Ben Shahn drawings, right, and the really, y'know, strike-oriented kind of, red diaper, stop me before I make a complete imbecile of myself.
Allison: No, that was wonderful. I love being reduced to a cultural stereotype.
Alvy Singer: Right, I'm a bigot, I know, but for the left.

Nabisco, nobody should wear cowboy boots except for real, honest-to-goodness cowboys. It just looks silly otherwise.

Oh yeah, and a long-delayed "hi" back to Felicity!

I'm assuming that applies to this guy, Dee?

http://www.ccadp.org/BUSH-Boots3.jpg

Statement 1 is losing its salience at least at the top end, but apparently not at the bottom. What does this mean for statement 2?

We came/went over (this depends on where you the reader are right now) two Marches in consecutive years, before kids.

The first year, it was so cold and snowy, we virtually had the place to ourselves.

One two three one two three

I kind of can't wait to leave this city; my experience with my job has lead me to just want to run off to another city asap but of course I cannot because of fucking school so I'm probably going to end up jumping in front of a subway instead. I was pretty convinced that moving to Montreal would be a good idea actually like about a month ago but, you know, Canada.

so I think I'll be coming down next weekend, not this, as I just found out my fake band is playing next week & now i have to rehearse and shit!

by the way, im leaving for the airport in a bit. any new yorkers who wants a cheap carton of cigarettes, IM or email me like real real soon.

I just want to spend four days to a week visiting museums (MOMA, the folk art museum, etc.) and doing lame touristy stuff - is it worth paying more to stay in lower Manhattan to be closer to the museums and stuff?

The time you're looking for is probably mid to late October, though late September can have great late Summer weather.

Columbus Day Weekend is Open House NY. Halloween is the parade in the Village (not that big a deal). Nov. 6 is the NY Marathon.

Thanks for the dates, I know pretty much nothing about New York (I've never been north of the Mason-Dixon/east of the Mississippi).

NEW ENGLAND
SF NYC
DC

LA
FLORIDA

It looks like $89/night is the lowest end for a two-star/shared-bath arrangement, which isn't bad given the cost of gas (as my other idea is a road trip).

He even got himself the same initials.

dude, our bars stay open until 4 am.

My friend Andrew, username: allocryptic, has portrayed George M. Cohen for stage.

Also, I will be in New York this Monday.

http://project1.caryacademy.org/TurnofCentury/NYMusic/george%20m.jpg

I fucking don't.

He is from Rhode Island = HE IS TRIVIAL.

http://www.benzilla.com/upload_images/_nd5.jpg

Yes and yes. I am at home. The family are elsewhere.

http://vassifer.blogs.com/alexinnyc/general/index.html

i'd really like to live there, but probably can't for another year or three. for now i'll have to stick to visiting my brother there every couple months.

no they're not. this is true of newark though.

forget the cab. take one $5 airtrain and one $2 subway.

the horror!

Also stops at Grand Central. I've used it many times.

http://www.nyairportservice.com/

get one subway map

This was easy as pie when I went to NYC via Newark in 2003.

-- the goulash archipelago (theundergroundhom...) (webmail), August 4th, 2005 12:10 PM. (Jody Beth Rosen) (later) (link)

I had a nice guided tour around Red Hook the other weekend from Nathan Michel.

-- Momus (nic...) (webmail), July 27th, 2005 5:42 PM. (Momus) (later) (link)

what's the matter, were you afraid to go yourself?

-- club soda (theundergroundhom...) (webmail), July 27th, 2005 7:27 PM. (Jody Beth Rosen) (later) (link)

By the way, when do you get back (from wherever you're going)? We should have that lunch, maybe when the heat breaks and it's possible to leave the building within 5 hours of high noon.

get one person unfamiliar with NYC generally, and perhaps unfamiliar with any comparable public transit system, who, laden with luggage, must:
- get from terminal to airtrain
- buy metrocard from robot
- get on the right subway line in the right direction
- transfer at the right stop to the right alternate line in the right direction
- get from subway to hotel

not a death march or anything, but the various difficulties might justify the taxi cost to the first-time visitor. plus... the Van Wyck, Linden Blvd, the first view from the Triborough, etc. etc.

So what. It's how you learn things... On my first trip to NYC I did all of that myself - only there weren't Metrocards yet and it was still the mid-80s scary NYC.

i'm a troll bitch from jersey. get it right.

Milo will have many days to figure out and experience many forms of public transit, so I don't see the need to do so with extra baggage, but it would be a good welcome-to-NYC adventure, so I defer.

xpost

Two things: (a) my hatred for Newark Airport has nothing to do with the fact that it's situated in New Jersey (although that certainly doesn't help matters). (b) I never expect to be taken seriously.

By the way, when do you get back (from wherever you're going)? We should have that lunch, maybe when the heat breaks and it's possible to leave the building within 5 hours of high noon.

You're on! I get back next week. Watch this space.

I read today that Chelsea Clinton lives in Chelsea, where they tried to stop her voting. I wonder where her vote went?

So like, is it /was it illegal to dance in new york or something? Its unclear.

venues need a special license

shimmy shimmy ya

shimmy yam shimmy yay

why is it 16 fucking degrees outside - this is completely unacceptable!

the correct answer was "gimme the mic so I can take it away"

i cant be expected to rock the mic in this weather

it is DAMN chilly out.
i just took a nice hot shower.

yum sounds so nice

i want to go outside but im afraid of the cold - should i do it y/n?

where you going?

y it nice just crisp. go to little piggy market n get their meatloaf sand mmmm

"meatloaf sand"

Last night was offering those gusts of wind that actually keep you from being able to breathe, for a second.

the skylight in our bathroom was rattling all night long. total dud!

i was gonna go running in teh park

sounds like weird nose weather. when you scrunch up your nose and it takes a second or two to fall back into place.

ooof now i'm scared to leave my bedroom. i know there's another thread for this, but someone is taking me out to dinner tonight and i can't come up with any place to go at the moment! what is your favorite eats right now?

zabb city or sripraphai

i went running - it was niiice

tza - what sort of price range are we talking

and what neighborhood?

anyone been to florent? menu looks good. friend had 3 ideas - highline, florent, and corner bistro.

i think meatpacking-ish area

i like florent a lot. haven't been in a few years, though. corner bistro gets very crowded, burgers good to great-ish, lots of fratsters at prime times.

i am not really feeling burgery today, so i think we are going to go with florent. i trust it if you like it a lot! (though hopefully it's still as good as a few years ago).

i need to start keeping a list of restaurants. there's always someplace i want to try but when someone asks me i blank.

corner bistro is a shitty place w/good burgers

http://nymag.com/listings/bar/maincornerbistro.jpg

that does look tasty, but not today.

I like Corner Bistro but maybe have been lucky/oblivious to frats there. :( The bugers are rad and charmingly reasonably sized, that is to say kind of small, for burgers, but they turn out to be JUST the right size to eat in one sitting.

i am having burgers tonight

the problem with Corner Bistro is that it's become a kind of shrine to itself in a way that Katz's has managed to avoid - Chumley's comes to mind as well

SPECIAL CHICKEN:

sauteed chicken breast with roasted pecans, fresh herbs & orange marmelade; served with mashed potatoes & string beans

maybe i order this!

actually i think today is more of a roast chicken day

i'm feeling fish... fish with a nice bitter green

imna order some mthfkin dumplings right now

My boss called from New York today and explained he was a couple of minutes late into work because he stopped to help a guy whose hand got stuck to a lamppost.

How's the weather there, i may be coming over this in the next couple of weeks?

ew

http://i28.tinypic.com/157d5ph.jpg

http://www.weather.com/outlook/travel/vacationplanner/monthly/10021?from=tenDay_topnav_vacation
http://www.weather.com/outlook/travel/vacationplanner/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/10021?from=month_bottomnav_vacation

spring and fall are the nice seasons around here - its just starting to get good now - still libel to rain and be poopy but that can happen anytime

Hm - in my experience spring and fall barely exist in NY - you usually just get slammed between cold and hot

This could admittedly have something to do with the horrible radiators in every building I've ever lived in

don't make the mistake of walking through Soho on a weekend afternoon. I wanted to kill everyone.

Hm - in my experience spring and fall barely exist in NY - you usually just get slammed between cold and hot

-- Tracer Hand, Monday, April 14, 2008 9:17 AM (15 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

lol ok grandpa - while this may be occasionally true of spring - fall is absolutely glorious and lingering

and just take a look at that mid april screenshot i posted for lovely nyc spring action

Thanks everyone!
I've also just noticed why Ste said ew. Best/worst typo ever.

i could see how horrible winter/summer could wipe the subtle spring/fall weather out yr memory - cause winter and summer are so gross and intense

Yeah, this happens to me every year. Yesterday I was at the South end of Central Park and I was like "Whoa, Central Park is really nice!" Then I ducked into a phone-booth and changed out of my Captain Obvious unitard.

central park is one of the greatest places /captain obvious

When can I get a deal on an air conditioner (other than "the fall")

Central Park is kind of shitty but the location is what makes it interesting

WHA CENTRAL PARK IS NOT "KIND OF SHITTY" ITS A FUCKING MARVEL OF LANDSCAPE DESIGN!!!

FORGET ABT GETTING AIR CONDITIONER ADVICE FROM ME JERK

jw probably has seen like 10-20% of the park

yeah, no fall is crazy. certainly the quality of spring and fall can vary by year, and there are years that feel like no spring, but it may be that we don't notice it as much if there's enough rain in between lingering april winter and extra warm june.

yah rainy spring is a downr

I really like the edges of the park - some of the nicer buildings in the city are there and I like seeing them framed by trees.

Northeast US Spring is one moody bitch though. My wife keeps asking me around what date she should put away her sweaters and I keep telling her that's not how it works here.

Cast ne'er a clout' till may is oot.

Yea, I haven't seen that much of central park, but its a fucking frisbee golf course compared to the places I went back home to ride my bike / take walks.

this weekend we had one day of summer followed by one day of winter

Spring in New York is awesome. It's like the only few weeks where you actually talk to your neighbors. Once summer comes around it's back to business as usual.

i've considered starting a thread called "You can take the kids out of the suburbs, but you can't take the suburbs out of the kids" with a jpg of the McCarren Pool slip 'n slide

I don't understand all this excitement about the outdoors and going to parks. Call me when it's beach weather.

what date she should put away her sweaters

August?

You crazy, parks beat beaches hands down.

except when parks become beaches, e.g., that strip of McCarren Park along Bedford Ave

Yea, I haven't seen that much of central park, but its a fucking frisbee golf course compared to the places I went back home to ride my bike / take walks.

-- Catsupppppppppppppp dude 茄蕃, Monday, April 14, 2008 9:56 AM (26 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

omg yah central park isnt anything compared to the colorado rockies either - oh wait what theyre not the same thing? omg

central park is easily the most brilliantly landscaped place ive ever been. id even put it ahead of the great japanese gardens for its pragmatic utility - you never see biz markie preforming in a japanese garden. theres like 20 distinct aesthetic environments flowing seamlessly into each other.

its a masterwork that you can walk through and even play frisbee golf in if you like.

Honestly, I've never been to Central Park way uptown. You know, where they filmed all those early 90s movies they show on BET.

Hands up who's been north of the Jackie O Reservoir?

it contains and is surrounded by some of the worlds great museums. its got the alice in wonderland statue and a carousel. if all the people are bugging you out you can go hide in the ramble. shit a lot of people even live there.

i have been everywhere in cp

can anyone recommend a good bio of olmstead?

Ed, you are clearly winter-crazed and will only come to your senses when bathed in the reflected glare of July sun off hot sand and lapping waves.

Parks have shady trees for me to sit under.

central park is pretty dope, but on a nice day on the weekend it gets absolutely crazy crowded with people. i have the same (minor) quibble abt Prospect Park, but it doesn't fill up quite to the same degree. Also, I prefer Prospect Park because it is a 5 minute walk from my apartment and has a zoo. also designed by olmstead, IIRC.

also, i am with ed on parks being way better than beaches. if you were a dog, you could go to the doggie beach at prospect park!

You paleskins can stay in the park, then. It'll keep you off the shore-bound highways!

word is Olmstead felt Prospect Park was superior to Central Park.

You may also want to visit Forest Park in Queens:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Park_%28Queens%29

It's more of a forest than the other two parks.

ian, Central Park has a zoo too. it has polar bears.

i DO totally want to go to forest park.

i'd also like to let u guys all know that there are FLOWERS blooming on the tree outside my window for the first time this season.

but it's not a zoo i can walk to!
and does it have red pandas?

central park zoo is way better than prospect park zoo fyi ian - i do got mad love for prospect park tho

word is Olmstead felt Prospect Park was superior to Central Park.

yes, Olmsted did, and he isn't alone

yah it has red pandas and penguins <3 <3 <3

central park is way more formal and dynamic - prospect park is more natural

central park is way better maintained - which is kinda fuckd up

what ian zaid (tho I have never been to the PP zoo)

bikes around prospect park = :)

cutty? is that you?

can anyone recommend a good bio of olmstead?

http://www.amazon.com/Clearing-Distance-Frederick-Olmsted-America/dp/0684865750

Olmstead landscaped my high school (!)

you wanna know about central park, you read this

guys, there's no A in olmsted

its so crazy how every park in boston and new york is designed by that guy

My friend starts as a PP Zoo docent this spring! I will go to see her handle snakes & kiss the kissing pygmy goat.

SHEEP SHEARING, MAY 3 AND 4. C U THERE, IAN.

also Rock Creek Park in DC.

xp: reminds me. what ever happened to fact checking cuz?

is that hands-on civilian sheep shearing?

Sheep shearing?

they don't do it themselves, ed.

fact checkin cuz still posts on ILM i think. as factcheckr

is he tremendoid?

Doing it in the park
Doing it after dark
Ooh yeah
Rock Creek Park
Ooh yeah
Rock Creek Park:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-UxdI0jh8Uk

can anyone recommend a good bio of olmstead?

http://www.amazon.com/Clearing-Distance-Frederick-Olmsted-America/dp/0684865750

-- Mr. Que, Monday, April 14, 2008 3:06 PM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

so this is good que? that's the one google came up with for me but it looks like it might be super boring.

I never knew of that Blackbyrds song, and I am psyched to learn of its existence

^^^

hey bell labs i haven't actually read that book but that's the only one I know of about olmsted. i remember when it came out, i was working in a bookstore, and it got a lot of attention here's an interview w/the author:

http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/interviews/ba990714.htm

maybe borrow from a library instead of buying a copy and if it sucks you haven't wasted any $$

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/mytown-newyork.html?c=y&page=2

whoops, that should have started with page 1

florent to reopen with same menu, same staff - but without Flo

http://www.observer.com/2008/real-estate/meatpacking-cooked

Nobody here ever answered me about whether or not Howe meant what I suspected he meant.

I would ask him personally, but he's all dead and stuff.

recap

Rangel, Rangel, Rangel.

http://ventriloquismnyc.wordpress.com/2008/07/18/welcoming-the-age-of-yupres-young-urban-pre-professionals/

A thing that always gets on my nerves here: stuff that is really good always has wait times/reservation difficulties that are disproportional to how much better the thing is. So you have to wait 2.5 hours to eat the best brunch in NYC and thus kill a lot of the point of brunch which is to spend your Sunday in a leisurely way. Or you settle for any old brunch. I prefer the second option but I hate how you never even get the chance to do the really good things if you don't want to wait in endless lines or go at weird-ass times.

Suspect part of the problem is the elevation of some stuff to "really good" status in the first place. It's like, how "special" does brunch really need to be?? In a smaller city/town, there might only be a few places or one or two places in each neighborhood, that were, like, famous for brunch. You would just go there. There might still be a long line, though, and then what?

At least here you can just go somewhere "adequate" if the other conditions are unacceptable.

That's true. Although there are some neighborhoods where the genuinely good options are all mobbed on a nice day -- e.g. yesterday I was in Mad. Sq. Park. Shack Shack was jammed, Eataly was jammed, new taco place had lines out the door, everything else seemed to be garbagy panini delis or chain fast food. Maybe if I had known better where to look. I settled for mediocre street cart halal.

Also I guess it's just a sense that you live in NYC and pay a shitload more to do so because you DON'T just want to settle for so-so neighborhood place, because you're supposed to have access to the best everything, and yet the "access" is an illusion because things have lines that are too long and/or cost too much.

Sorry these are dumb posts I'm grouchy.

no joke, so excited to have these problems

Well your first problem was being in Madison Square Park, obv.

"The best of everything" is an illusion, too.

Sorry, I don't mean to be deny-y of your problems! But like, they don't need to be problems except in the situation of specific expectations that are far from universal.

Also trying to brunch in somewhere like Grammercy-area and finding lines is like being mad that you can't drive through Times Square without having to wait for tourists to cross the street. I'm not in New York to drive through Times Sq and I'm not in NY to brunch with yuppies who pay $6000 a month in rent and patronize their upscale local restaurants accordingly.

I guess I just see huge parts of what people write about and talk about and desire as "the best" as being Not For Me (Or My Kind). I don't go there, I don't know about them, and I never expect to do either. I know this isn't true, it's just my perspective, but also I'm busy as it is and not exactly running out of places to go so it doesn't feel like a loss or anything.

Also, wanting to participate in things that are way beyond my financial reach or just not how I live is a really bad idea for me, because it results in such frantic unhappiness and such a horrible feeling of being shut out or left behind or perpetually failing/under-achieving compared to hypothetical others. It's much better for me to narrow my focus and be content with my lot.

What is the name of this place that is supposed to be the best brunch in NYC?

Imna go neg thier yelp so next time the line isnt so long for u

Also, everything is so damn dirty. How do New Yorkers hold on to railings in the subway then molest pizza slices before eating them without a thought? Every little thing is caked with exhaust-grime.

Venting cause I come from a wooded area so I usually miss the fresh air.

Anyway, back to being upset about the city having too many people.

settling for mediocre halal is still better than settling for taco bell or a frozen dinner from the supermarket imo.

Is it? Who has higher standards?

Actually Taco Bell in NYC is probably the lowest you can get.

I will wait in long lines if I have someone to talk to, RARELY... otherwise, fuhgeddabout it. I have a MoMA membership and go in the galleries about 3x a year. Too fucking crowded, ALWAYS. (they have members-only previews, which I never go to for unknown reasons)

ian, wanna go to late 1920s vaudeville shorts at the FF Monday night? (or anyone else)

http://www.filmforum.org/films/vitaphone/PDF1VitaNotes.pdf

Honestly I am just grouchy -- in finals and had my job offer pulled away last minute for economic reasons. I normally don't make these kind of complaints and happily just go to the seventeenth best brunch or whatever.

Plus my neighborhood still has a relatively nice balance where you can go to really good places that AREN'T always insanely jammed, with the exception of maybe Frankies Spuntino which I haven't been able to get a reasonable wait time for yet. Also Lucali is crazy, but if you show up before they open you don't wait so long.

I think long lines that are not equivalent to the payoff are pretty endemic of every big city!

settling for mediocre halal is still better than settling for taco bell or a frozen dinner from the supermarket imo.

― one dis leads to another (ian), Friday, May 6, 2011 5:40 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Not even a truth bomb; just fact

the solution is just not to eat in manhattan unless you have to

Don't eat in Manhattan - brunch at least. Below 110th.

People in Brooklyn get to spend less, and avoid Euro-handbags. And there are actual food people cooking.

searchable old photos of NYC from the library archives

you're welcome

http://www.oldnyc.org/

ah yes i remember it well

http://gothamist.com/2016/07/13/nyc_1976_in_8mm.php