breast milk

the milk is sweet

apparently what the woman eats effects the taste. chili can be disturbing for a young child's stomach (or so i was told...what about breastfeeding mums in countries where chili is a part of lots of dishes?)

egg-laying mammals (duckbilled platypus and echidna) don't have nipples - the milk just oozes out of pores in the skin and the young laps it up off the mother's fur.

fwiw, i just learned in lecture that it is "undebatable" that breast fed babies are smarter.

and my prof is a dead ringer for david strathairn

also, breast feeding w/HIV is contraindicated only in the US and other "developed" countries....anyone care to hazard a guess why?

flouride???

fluoride i mean

also i was a formula baby :/

it is because mixing formula with the water readily available in developing countries is far more hazardous to infant health than the chance of vertical transmission of HIV

:-/

I was going to say, formula in developing countries does not have the best of reputations.

THANKS, NESTLE

ask yr prof if i drink breast milk now will i get smart(er), k, thanx

where exactly are you planning on getting this breast milk?

There's a coffeeshop in Tucson that has breast milk on the menu. The Safehouse on Speedway Blvd.

according to google it isn't actually breast milk

it's from the breasts of cows

xp to gbx - Isn't is also relevant that the people in Third World countries can't really afford to buy the formula consistently and therefore they will water it down to make it last and that's also problematic?

Also note that even the temporary use of formula creates less demand for breast milk, so when the formula is gone, the breast milk supply is going to be low.

DRILL BABY DRILL

i was just gonna pick some up at trader joe's

fwiw, i just learned in lecture that it is "undebatable" that breast fed babies are smarter.

― i love to hear this again and again (gbx), Tuesday, November 11, 2008 10:23 AM (6 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i call bullshit on this

yeah my one sister and i who were formula babies are way smarter than my other sister who got the mom tit

but if it's from a study i'll buy it

maybe your mom was an alkie

if your mom only eats french fries her breast milk isn't gonna be that good

more like breast oil

that was according to the pediatrician that gave lecture today. although, to be fair, he did say that babies that are breast-fed have "higher IQs," which is a whole can of worms we don't need to open right now. i think that was short-hand for "smarter," however, since you can't give babies IQ tests. then again, i know some studies linking intelligence to breast-feeding are based on *adult* performance years later, which is sorta bogus. either way: breast milk naturally contains DHA, which is the most abundant fatty acid in the brain and the retina. it's vital for development, and breast-feeding ensures that babies get it (though I think some formulas carry it now). also: cholesterol, which is good.

i think the general consensus is that, unless breast-feeding is *contraindicated* (galactosemia in the infant, drug use by moms (both prescribed and illicit), infectious disease, etc.), it's better than formula. as far as i can tell, that's uncontroversial.

i would love me some tittay milk right now

I had a zit on my nipple yesterday.

It popped and looked like I lactated.

the NIH and the AAP (American Academy of Pediatrics) are trying to get 75% of new mothers to breast-feed their kids for at least 12 months by 2010.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1595047

breast milk naturally contains DHA, which is the most abundant fatty acid in the brain and the retina. it's vital for development, and breast-feeding ensures that babies get it (though I think some formulas carry it now). also: cholesterol, which is good.

i think all formulas have it these days. certainly the ones i used. also a whole bunch of other stuff has DHA now - juices, snack bars etc etc

ARA too. i have no idea what that is though

the midwives at homerton hospital agree with gbx - they also say they won't let any new mom go home without having done a good "feed" first

yeah i have a problem with "midwives" too

to be fair they did not imply any future einstein type results

wait midwives see the baby for what 1-3 days? does the babies head grow when it gets a boob instead of a bottle? how do they know which baby is smarter?

ok

they say breast milk is more complex than formula is and they say that immunities (?) get transmitted to the baby - i'm probably phrasing that last part wrong but that was the gist of it

yes, there are immunological considerations. again, i was merely relaying what i was told, but breast milk >>> formula is not even remotely controversial.

any study that just takes two vectors - IQ vs (something else) would be suspect though wouldn't it? you could do IQ vs type of diaper. IQ vs length of surname. you'd always get a result!

ok maybe not with the surname thing. but with anything that could remotely be considered cultural or to do with class.

oh of course, TH. the IQ stuff is totally debatable, as I said upthread. it was the pediatrician giving lecture today that said it was "undebatable" (this despite the slide he had up saying "debatable" \(°_°)/). however, that breast milk is biochemically/nutritionally/etc more beneficial for newborns than something designed by man is widely accepted by most practicing pediatricians (or at least the organizations that purport to represent them).

yeah i don think anyone cant argue that breast milk isn't better but i thought it was primarily better for the kiddos immune system.

bottle feeding gets blamed for a lot stuff though from infections to autism which i think is kind of ridiculous

Breast feeding for 10 years prob causes a lot of problems too.

DID you KNOW: One boob has milk and the other boob has calcium fortified orange juice.

This means if you fed on the Oange Juice Boob, you are dumb. Because breastmilk is the world's panacea AND smartening agent.

Colostrum is the stuff that provides immunological benefits. It comes out of a lady's boobs for a week or few before she starts primarily producing milk.

(or orange juice)

Oh my god there is a Finnish cheese made of cow colostrum.

god. why?

Beestings! Oh my dear nervous stomach didn't need this.

xp colostrum only lasts for a few days and is full of immunological benefits, but my understanding is that immune components continue to be passed through breast milk for the duration of nursing.

I really don't want to think about cow colostrum. EVER

breast milk is some Grade A shit for babies but heavy-handed schoolmarms like La Leche don't do themselves any favors by guilt trippin moms. there are legitimate reasons why some mothers give up breastfeeding early on, physical issues either with the mom or the baby.this happened with a couple of my friends, they were totally on board for nursing but it just didn't work out. their kids are fine. generations were brought up on formula, it is more than adequate. i do think new moms should try to breastfeed at least for maybe 3 months if they can but nothing to get upset about if they don't. corporate bullshit in the 3rd world is a different issue, that is not cool

i do think new moms should try to breastfeed at least for maybe 3 months if they can

this may be doable if you have the luxury of hanging out at home with your kid for that long. my company only allows six weeks maternity leave (which i think is pretty standard in the US, no?) so to start and then have the kid weaned to a bottle for daycare in six weeks is kind of impossible.

oh, i know there are numerous reasons why it can't be done, that's why i said "if they can"
my wife was able to pump at work, they had a room set aside for this, lol "lactation center"

ha. only managers get to do this at my work because everyone else is in a cube.

ie managers have offices with DOORS

We had to section off an office for an employee so she could pump during work hours.

theres a woman in the office behind my cube who still pumps every morning. a few weeks ago another woman from our team knocked on the door and I guess got the 'busy pumping' reply. she then pressed her ear up to the door and shouted 'OH MY GOD I CAN HEAR IT. EWWWW!!!'

go way

pumpin

six weeks maternity leave (which i think is pretty standard in the US, no?)

this is so fucking insane - almost as if the "family values" party hadn't been in office for the last eight years

one of my classmates (24 y/o single mom yikes!) is a pumper. but it's a little easier to manage when you like hang out in a medical facility all day.

I prefer beast milk.

a further advantage, according to the homerton midwives:

you get your figure back quicker!

my mother in law told me that one which was pretty much the last nail in the coffin of the possibility of breastfeeding for me. im yet to see it in friends that breastfeed but i do get the whole muscles pull up from there idea.

I think a good way to see it is not that breastfeeding is this amazing benefit, and formula a close second.

Breastfeeding is simply the biological norm. It does not have 'benefits', artificial feeding has health risks (but very very low ones in the developed world so really not something to guilt trip about).

Six weeks' maternity leave is shocking and I'm not surprised it undermines breastfeeding levels. Also a lot of midwives seem to know FA about good latch etc.

Also 20 months of breastfeeding failed to regain my flat stomach, sadly :(

Re: the IQ levels. Isn't it more likely that societal factors play a bigger part (eg middle-class women more likely to breastfeed, their babies more likely to have a good education etc).

Wait, sunny, I don't get it: how was "you lose weight faster" a nail in the coffin for breastfeeding, in your experience? I think I'm reading something wrong.

meg is OTM all over the place here and i know she is a breastfeeder.

Laurel it was kind of the end of a lot of consistant pressure i got from PP's mom during my pregnancy to breastfeed. I dont know, when it came down to oh you wont be as fat rather than this is better for the baby I was done. If that makes any sense. I dont appreciate being guilted into shit esp when the real reason turns out to be looking thinner.

also when i here hippieesque people telling me how natural and beautiful it is and how its the only way youll every bond with your child my first reaction is 'fuck you'

here = hear obv

SS, you should NEVER feel bad because you didn't BF. Never. For a split second.

"breast milk is some Grade A shit for babies but heavy-handed schoolmarms like La Leche don't do themselves any favors by guilt trippin moms."

Fucking A, man. I was posting about wanting to quit at 12 months and got some heavy guilt tripping vibe on some forum. It was as if I was abusing my kid.

Y'know, now that I had one heavy year of Elisabeth wanting to breastfeed a LOT and waking up all the time in the night, I can understand why some women prefer not to BF. And all those that disagree, YOU wake up five times in the night even when your baby's seven/eight months. I was seriously fucked. Only now does she sleep through. And I know, I shouldn't complain, she's healthy and happy, but it's hard running on so little sleep (with two kids, a household and a shop to run).

Milk's very tasty though. I tried it. :-)

Ah... that's where co-sleeping comes into its own. Howie sometimes used to feed in the night without even waking me. And it does mean you don't have to get out of bed for night feeds!

the losing weight effect varies, for my wife it did, the second child took a while longer tho. not to be cruel but it didn't seem to work much for some women i know : \

Uh the problem with making comparisons about weight loss is you can never know what would have happened if that person had done the opposite of whatever they did. IE you may not have thought someone lost much weight but there's no "control" case; what if she HADN't BFed?

Sunny, I have total faith in the hippy-dippy where most of this stuff is concerned but who knows? With a little luck, someday I will get to find out about it firsthand.

yes, i agree just was pointing out that it is not necessarily the magic weight loss bullet that some people think.

see i have a problem with the hippy dippy. id just rather get it right the first time around thanplay with a bunch of theories. it a lot of pressure being responsible for someone elses life.

I liked a lot of things about breastfeeding, but one of the things I liked best was that I didn't get my period for the first 14 months after both kids were born. Weight loss <<<<< no cramps. ;)

I got mine back at 4 months when H was still feeding all day and night. No fair :(

id just rather get it right the first time around

I don't think you'd find anyone to disagree with this, in an ideal state?? It's the contents of "right" that are disagreed on.

Also, it strikes me as impossible to get things "right" at any measurable level w/r/t parenting. So impossible over the lifetime of childhood that I'm not sure it's a meaningful distinction? But that's really not relevant to this thread!

Re: the weight thing. If I BF no.2 for as long as Howie then by the end of 2010 I will have been continuously pregnant and/or breastfeeding for nearly five years, during which I have stuffed my face more or less non-stop. If I suddenly balloon in 2011 then you'll have your answer...

ha, yes Meg, I was really lucky with the period thing. Also, I was insanely hungry when I was nursing Alex, especially the first 6 months; I ate and ate and ate and weight just sort of fell off of me. It was pretty great.

I've met women whose bodies seem to do the opposite while nursing, though, and who have had the experience after quitting nursing that they lost weight more easily. I suspect that's more of an individual body chemistry thing.

So here's a weird thing - I have lactated since my early twenties - not constantly, but if I squeeze my nipple, milk comes out. I could be a wet nurse. So I figure when I have a baby it's all going to be fine with the breastfeeding. Rufus could not latch and we went the first night without feeding him until the hospital brought in a breast pump. I pumped breast milk for Rufus for about 4 months. Then I had Cyrus. He latched without any problem. But it hurt so much! It was so painful! And I could only do it in certain positions, lying down. So I ended up pumping a lot for Cyrus and lasted maybe also 4 months. The good thing about pumping was that it allowed Scott to feed the babies in the middle of the night sometimes or when I was working. The bad thing about it - it made me dumb. I used to think it was antifeminist to say that those hormones affect a woman's brain, and it is probably different for everyone, but I was definitely mentally dulled by breastfeeding/pumping.

Maria, that is SO interesting to me that your body wants you to be dreamy and un-impatient and not full of get-up-and-go, which I guess makes sense since you can't do too much getting up with a baby on your lap. What a weird/amazing protective measure for babies! Make their moms a little slower and therefore (maybe?) less clumsy, less impatient, more sentimental, and so on!

You guys evolution is seriously really cool.

Breastfeeding hormones made me sleeeeepy. I had a hell of a time figuring out how to get to sleep after my kids were done nursing.

id just rather get it right the first time around thanplay with a bunch of theories.

Dude, raising a kid is so hard! It seems to be trial and error all the fucking time.

Breastfeeding hurt sooooooooooooooooo much the first time. I can't even begin to explain. Bleeding, pain,... Even putting on a bra hurt my breasts. Engorged? Oh man. Were they ever. But y'know, I had a really great family and circle of friends who were so nice to listen to me moaning endlessly while I was BFing. hah. Second time was easier though. Still hurt but much less so.

I had my period back after a couple of months (with Elisabeth). Ah well...

Those early days of BFing are hard but also hilarious. We had a bedroom with a laminate floor and every morning there would be a trail of milk spots from the bed to the crib where I'd got up in the night. I used to sleep on top of a towel which would be drenched every morning.

Just thought I'd rear my ugly head to slip in a rant about my in-laws.

MIL when Marley was only six weeks old: I'm taking her next saturday afternoon

Me: Are you taking my breasts too?

MIL: Get pumping

Me: I can't express. A. It'll fuck with the supply and demand. B. You ain't gitting my baby

MIL: You're using 'this breastfeeding' as an excuse not to let anyone watch her

Me: Damn tooting, and a good excuse it is too.

Five months later my 'excuse' still holds.

P.S - Most I've ever managed to express is 3oz, my boobs invert into my chest wall when they sense the plastic pump so I don't bother with it. If I'm not 'pumping' for my benefit, for example a full nights sleep or a couple of drinks then I ain't doing it for his mothers benefit either.

Sorry, I only come on the internet to bitch about his parents these days.

I never got on with pumping either. Tried once and after an hour's furious pumping I had nipples an inch long and two measly oz. Never bothered again!

BTW you know you don't have to 'pump and dump' if you've had a drink, don't you? Alcohol leaves breastmilk at the same rate as it leaves the bloodstream so as long as you are only having one or two units and there's a couple of hours til the next feed, you're fine.

one of the expectant mothers at my class asked the midwife, "can i drink again after i give birth, if i'm breastfeeding?" and the midwife laughed and said "yes, if you want your baby to have a nice good sleep"

I had a beer or three a week while pregnant. I could sense when it wasn't okay. Both kids great. Rufus reading at 2. Pot too.

And breastfeeding.

I was a pumping champ. I tried to find people to buy my milk but the only one's who responded also wanted a nudy picture of me pumping.

my wife would have a 1/3 of a glass of wine sometimes when she was breastfeeding. an occasional beer. not when she was actually nursing tho : )
no big deal.

So here's a weird thing - I have lactated since my early twenties - not constantly, but if I squeeze my nipple, milk comes out. I could be a wet nurse. So I figure when I have a baby it's all going to be fine with the breastfeeding.

Me too! Actually I don't think anymore although I haven't checked for a while. When I was about 21 I had to go through an MRI and a series of bloodtests to make sure this wasn't due to a tumor on my pituitary gland which thankfully it was not. I just have slightly higher than average levels of prolactin which is the hormormone that causes woment to produce milk. The only time this could be a problem is when I try to have kids as prolactin also supresses ovulation but it's only slightly elavated so probably won't interfere. Man, bodies are interesting.

Ridiculous US maternity leave laws are one of the reasons we'd like to move back to UK before babies.

Also GBX the whole infant feeding issue in developing countries especially in regards to women with HIV is fascinating to me. I've done a lot of reading on the subject. Interestingly I believe Partners in Health still recommends formula feeding for HIV + mothers in resource poor settings despite loads of info to the contrary.

Also I was formula/bottle fed and as far as I can tell the only ill effect this may have had is that I have had tons of ear infections/problems starting when I was an infant but that may have happened even if I was breastfed. Who knows?

Ear infections are less when you are breastfed, but apparently a pacifier can worsen ear infections as well.

The idea that breastfeeding and its benefits is actually down to teh environment is not right. Breastfeeding has its benefits (on zee brain development) but of course it doesn't "stay" as formula fed babies do catch up later on. (Sadly, or I could have blamed formula feeding on my stupidity. wink wink).

Pumping and me didn't mix either. But then I didn't persevere. Didn't need to: I run a shop, I can keep the baby closeby. I tried in the beginning thinking it would be less painful. Fuck no. The trick is to keep a picture of your baby closeby or thinking about your baby. Or even having her/him in eyesight.

I was reading Kate Moss biography - shut up, I like trash - and apparently she was knocking back wodkas and smoking while pregnant. Yikes! I was scared even looking at raw meat. haha I'm half joking.

one thing that breastfeeding books and proponents seldom mention is the ANGUISH and HEARTBREAK that accompany the first few days of trying to get it right.

also the dictum that "if it hurts, you're not doing it right". which is, as far as the first few days are concerned, how you say, booshit mang

i really understand sunny's irritated backlash at the whole "natural, beautiful" rhetoric that surrounds breastfeeding now. for a large proportion - most? - moms it feels like anything but, at least at first, but at first is exactly the time when you're least prepared to do this crazy, painful, patience-requiring thing

yeah, it causes a lot of anxiety because it takes a few days to really get the hang of it and the hospital staff gets on your case immediately

Tracer what is it with you and the breastfeeding??? Are you trying to do the male lactation thing? Is male lactation really a thing, or a myth?

I am merely the resident sidekick and irritating "coach" who gets glared at occasionally and deserves it

I think I was weirdly lucky in learning to breastfeed slowly when my son was in the NICU for three weeks. He didn't have a suck reflex yet, so I was pumping and just slowly trying to teach him (and myself) how to nurse.

To be fair to the hospital staffs, they are working against the clock in trying to teach new moms to nurse within 48 hours - most women don't even have milk in before they leave the hospital.

Tracer, here are a few tips to help your wife/partner with sore nipples: 1. use Lansinoh on them 2. expose to air 3. express a bit of breast milk and apply to nipples and let dry (I have no idea why this helps, but it does - although probably if it's just colostrum there it would be harder to express since there just isn't that much...)

hey Tracer congratulations!

Yes - congrats Tracer!

we've got a dvd (that we've yet to watch) that promises 'breastfeeding with out tears'

Oh, my. I came in here misreading the thread title all ready the throw down for my bro 2%.

Sara - we are doin all the tips - even ordered some "nipple protectors" but frankly are not optimistic about them

the 100% hospital grade lanolin is definitely the business

the good news is, it seems to be getting better! hooray! a huge huge key has been: RELAX. though it's pretty hard to relax when you feel like you're wrestling a tiny orca

thank for the congrats foax! i will be joining the "people making" thread soon i guess, though my camera is not as nice as those of the people who post there

Tracer, it sounds like it's going as well as can be expected - and yeah - RELAX is the key (but kind of impossible when people are telling you to "relax" while trying to get you to do this very new thing). Hang in there - it will likely keep getting better. (And congratulations on your new baby!!!)

Be careful with the nipple shields -- they can affect the baby's ability to latch and can also affect supply because the nipple doesn't get the same 'feedback' from the sucking which tells the boob to make more milk. Not everyone has these problems with them but just something to be aware of.

Sounds like you're doing very well though. It does get easier and in the long term is a hell of a lot more convenient than faffing around with bottles and sterilisers.

Oh, and congrats!

Thanks!

We're using "Milton tablets" to sterilize things - for a couple of nights I used a syringe (sans needle obv) and some formula just to let the lovely Emma B sleep and to give her aching nips a break - which is pretty easy except yeah it's hard to remember what's been sterilized, what's yet to be sterilized - and like, can you dry a "sterile" bottle with a totally unsterile cloth? What about my hands? AAAGH!

The really nice thing is that it's FREE. It's insane what gets charged for baby products. And they really play on your paranoia. It's easy to feel like you must buy The Best, i.e. most expensive.

Not to mention that all those ads where mothers "trust" various cleaning products to keep their families "safe" are going to acquire a whole new abhorrent meaning.

RELAX. though it's pretty hard to relax when you feel like you're wrestling a tiny orca

Those breathing exercises that are supposed to get you through the worst of natural childbirth never did much for me during that process, but definitely helped in the early weeks of nursing.

Sterility is overrated, except during surgery.

congrats Tracer, I had no idea. Welcome to the club.

My wife swore by Lansinoh.

Sterility is overrated, except during surgery.

Wasn't so long ago that nursing mothers were told that they had to wash their breasts before each feed!

But sterility in bottles formula is v important (as far as my limited knowledge of formula goes) because of the bacteria that easily breed in it.

From Jill Lepore on breastfeeding in the New Yorker:

A brief history of food: when the rich eat white bread and buy formula, the poor eat brown bread and breast-feed; then they trade places.

Seriously though, it's a really good piece.

That article makes me want to reach through the page and strangle the author.

What, the An observation, historical: stuff?

I only made it through the first section. Perhaps this is a piece I should digest slowly, so I don't bruise my knuckles trying to do as Tracer suggests.

It gets better, honest!

Yes, the style of it is like arch-McSweeney's, which is belittling. I would have liked a considered, researched article on the history of breastfeeding politics but this ain't it.