Women despair at 'do it all' life

Just being able to do all the things we're supposed to - be that career/family or career/study or study/work/artistic pursuits or whatever is definitely exhausting.

My job has become frustrating, I'm aging, putting on weight and drinking way too often, I'm always exhausted and yet I still have to shop after work for food (on foot -I dont drive), then come home and cook and clean up all between 7 and 11pm, for me AND my partner even though its just us and no kids.

Why do I let myself fall into that role? The few times Ive insisted the lad pick up the groceries or do some cleaning Ive felt HORROR GUILT.

I R fule.

Many professionals (and I'm really talking professionals here, not women who don't have a choice, such as single mothers) feel like they should strive to have it all, have the relationship, the children, and the career, and then wonder why they're struggling. I think we need to re-examine what we really want, realise that we aren't superwomen, and step back look at what we've achieved and realised that we're doing ok, and there's no point striving for perfection when perfection doesn't exist as you'd be too knackered to enjoy it.

I'm lucky, I'm going to have a househusband ;0)

In which case Vicky's bang on with the househusband thing - even if it does conjure up images of Chris with a pinny and a feather duster, bustling around while waiting for the horse to be ready...

Expectations have been raised - women haven't necessarily been told they CAN have it all, rather that they SHOULD have it all, which is completely unrealistic. And in trying to achieve everything they find themselves drowning, and see themselves not just as failing in one particular area, but failing at life in general.

Back to my aunts - they didn't work because they had to, they worked because they thought being a successful parent meant package holidays, kappa shell suits, etc. etc.

IpsoKate, please write it, even if it sounds wanky. I'm really interested in how other women experience this.

Vicky OTM here: Expectations have been raised - women haven't necessarily been told they CAN have it all, rather that they SHOULD have it all, which is completely unrealistic.

Expectation changing and not attempting to be superwoman, fair enough. But there are certain things, if you don't do them, who will?

I'm trying to price out the prospect of the financial cost of a life alone right now, and it's insane. Mortgages, council tax, even food prices (everything comes in two-portion packets) are all based around the idea of couples or dual incomes. How does a one-income household afford a to buy a house in London? Not within a decent (middle class?) standard of living, it just doesn't.

I can't figure out how to take care of one person on my salary, I've no idea how two people or a family would be expected to manage. I'm not even talking about package holidays and branded trainers, I'm talking a mortgage, transport and frugal food.

The house-husband/gender role division is probably quite important. My last relationship, I was the one who went out to work, so my other half agreed to be the house-husband. (It's his house after all.) Still, I found myself doing the cooking, not the mention the shopping. Bringing home the bacon, going out and buying the bacon, then cooking the bacon. His part of the deal was that he do the cleaning up and the housework. And still there were these wafts of resentment coming off him over this situation. So even in the best housework-splitting situation, is it always the one who gets stuck scrubbing the toilet who ends up feeling resentful, regardless of their gender?

The problem perhaps is that the male role hasn't moved a fraction as much as the female role?

Very, very, VERY OTM here. Even talking about "househusbands" brings up cracks about Chris in an apron. Is it male fault for not changing, or female fault for not putting their foot down about it, as others have posited above? Isn't that just dumping ONE MORE THING on the woman's plate? She's supposed to be family woman, career woman, and labour management at home?

She's happy to do it, because she knows I'm flat out

Are you *sure*? I mean, we've only got your word for it. You also don't mention if your other half has a job or career of her own. She may be willing to do it if it makes the relationships work, and your lives work, but I think only she can say if she's actually "happy" doing ig.

I'm really lucky, my other half does probably 90% of the cooking, desipte me getting home sometimes 2 hrs before he does. We've got a reciprocal agreement - I clean the toilet and he does all the takeaway ordering (don't ask, I'm just weird). But I still get pissed off at the fact that I'm the only one who ever hoovers, dusts (that's a joke!) etc. I know it's completely illogical, but that's the way it is.

Kate, as you've realised it's much more economical to keep two people than it is to keep one. Fuel bills etc. aren't significantly higher, council tax isn't proportionally more expensive, and you're right, food is more economical when you're buying for two. The only solution I've seen for single people in London to buy and survive, (apart from those on stupid salaries) is to pair up with other friends in similar circumstances, or if they can afford a mortgage that gives them extra money for getting a two bedroom place so they can rent the spare room out (I think it's bradford and bingley, and it doesn't make a huge difference).

Telling remark - optimism = half?! must be half full not half empty. not that having nice hair or being tall enough (for what exactly?) seem like adequate compensation for being made to feel shit about failing to fulfil unrealistic expectations.

Speaking of unrealistic expectations... a whole house? I'm in a well-educated two-person household, and this ain't never gonna happen for me either. But the housing market is not a function of patriarchy.

Part of the problem with one partner staying at home and one partner going out to work is that staying at home and doing chores is lonely and it is not intellectually stimulating. My Bloke and I are in a situation that I regard as next to ideal, with me working part time in a job with career prospects and him working full time, and me doing most of the housework and other domestic things. The only problem with that, as Kate observes, is that there is a lot of belt-tightening that has to be done as a result.

You can't have it all. You can only have bits of it. You have to decide which bits are most important to you and do what you can to ensure that you have those bits. Of course it's the job of women's magazines and television to tell you that you're missing out and you need more in your life. If you didn't feel that there was a hole in your life, you wouldn't spend money trying to fill that hole, and they wouldn't have any advertising.

Pretty sure, yeah. She doesn't like it much, but who does? I always do what I can when I can, and when uni's not on I do just about everything except cooking anyway.

You also don't mention if your other half has a job or career of her own.

She does, yeah. We both work 40 hours a week, and I have uni on top of that, which this semester has eaten up every spare second I've had.

She may be willing to do it if it makes the relationships work, and your lives work, but I think only she can say if she's actually "happy" doing ig.

Again, I use the term 'happy' to mean she's happy to help me while I'm doing other stuff. And she is. I'm working for both of us, and 'er indoors doesn't have very much on outside work hours. She volunteers to do housework because she has that time, and because she knows I do plenty during uni breaks.

It really is about deciding which bits of the 'have it all' cake are the most important to you, and communicating well with your partner/family. If it turns out that between the two of you all the chores are covered and you enjoy the bits you're doing, that's great.

I would say that a system where one partner does all the housework is never ideal, partly for the reasons that accentmonkey mentions of it being lonely and unstimulating. But it can also be fun and fulfilling, and it links you deeply to your home and its rhythms, which for me at least is a really important balance to a manic working life. I work longer hours than Matt at the moment and he does the bulk of the cooking and cleaning, meaning that sometimes I feel left out of the running of my own home, which can be just as bad as feeling trapped in it.

Different standards of cleanliness really can cause resentment too. I try to remind myself that we BOTH have our foibles and failings. Eg. Matt never shuts drawers and cupboards, but then I leave my MA coursework all over the place...

I do think there's a niggling feeling, for women, that men are somehow not supposed to be good around the house, and any small failure on their part is actually an indictment of the whole sex and a signal for us to sigh, roll up our sleeves, and Do Things Properly as women have done for generations. But this is clearly spurious... I have a strong feeling that Matt will ultimately be far more efficient at raising a family than I will.

I am crap at knowing when to clean though, which is why I have turned into a feeder in a lame attempt to make amends ;o)

That always makes me laugh! If it looks dirty clean it, but mostly, don't leave it to get that dirty!

i can't imagine myself in a traditional relationship. even my parents, who i think of as pretty hip and products of an authentic hippy/feminist youth, are more 'traditional' than i'm comfortable with. dad barely does his own laundry, although he does all the 'outside' jobs, and works many more hours than mom.

i also think i'm probably less worried about this subject because i'm not planning on having kids-- and i suspect that while maintaining a more equal and fair relationship is possible with two people, it's a lot harder to do with kids around.

oh, and i'm happy with my height as well.

my mum was horrified when she came round to the flat to clean it for when we got back from honeymoon. I've given up on Chris's side of the bed - piles of clean and dirty clothes, magazines, books, receipts, loose change etc. but she did a huge clean and found socks (and god knows what else) under the bed, she found his signet ring that he'd lost approx. 4 months before, and she was fizzing with him that it was such a state. I've managed to let it wash over me. I'll nag every now and again, and once he was away for the weekend and I got disgusted by it, so I threw it all in a bin bag and stuck it out on the back staircase. (I ended up confessing a couple of days later, cos he still hadn't noticed anything different, or missed any of the clothes).

He doesn't see the muck but will usually sort something out if I ask him to, and he does his best to make it reciprocal, by feeding me so much that I can't see the muck under my feet cos my belly's too big. (I'm sure that's his long term plan)

In fact, if I think about it in that way I don't get annoyed that I'm the one that does the cleaning, because I'm doing it for me, just as Chris does most of the cooking because he really enjoys it.

I also share the hatred of take-out ordering! Even when I lived with a female, we had a deal that she would ring up and order, and I would go to the door and give the money, dealing with each others' social phobias.

I have kind of the flipside of much of the gender division here. My mum grew up with maids and had no idea of how to do housework. (When the house gets unbearable, shout at your children to tidy up.) I'm not exactly the Dirt Queen, but my cleanliness standards - or, more accurately, my *tidiness* standards - were far below my partner's. Which probably didn't help with friction and resentment. That said, my *cooking* standards were far above my partner's (he who grew up surrounded by professional chefs, can barely boil an egg, let alone make spaghetti sauce) so that's why I ended up with that bit of the chores.

((I'm not particularly happy with my hair, but you know, I can change it at will now. My height is OK, even though I sometimes wish I were shorter.))

[yes, i am afeared of the washing machine]

also i think there is a "thing" about women of our age not being great cooks, that i like to think traces back to them being told they "could do anything" by their mothers and shouldn't be tied down to trad roles. this is double-bubble for blokes though because it means if they cook, as mentioned by several of us so far, they get out of the boring stuff like dusting/washing up etc.

Matt and I try to some extent to be like housemates rather than lovers in domestic matters, and keep domestic frustrations/disagreements on a separate level and out of our more intimate lives. Doesn't always work though.

I have been seriously thinking about farming the ironing out though. I gave my mum £50 to get rid of the ironing mound last time she was round (some items had been in there for over 12 months, and didn't fit, surprise surprise, and there were 21 of Chris's shirts in there....)

x-post

I'm not sure if my own experience (and those of the women in my family) speaks directly to Kate's initial questions or not, since thinking about them brings up my status as a statistic (only child of single working mother on welfare etc) and I'm a little uncomfortable regarding my life via that lens.

My grandmother was fairly traditional in some respects--she grew up cooking for all the men in her family, eventually including my grandfather, and took care of him, down to laying out his work clothes every morning (even though it was a uniform and he wore the same thing every day!), up until he died several years ago. As well as doing household chores, she went to work around the time he retired, as director of a prominent local charity, and I remember her taking me in to the office with her, so that my playmates when I was very young were usually my grandparents or the volunteers at the association. My grandparents were a large part of my childhood in this way, keeping me with them off and on while my mother finished her graduate degree and went to work, although I primarily lived with her from the time I began school. In this sense my mom wasn't seeking to "have it all" by working, etc, just making do with the best she could do, depending on family for support, but she took pains to shelter me from difficulties she must've had as a single working mom. My grandmother never made my mom do housework when she was growing up, or learn to cook or anything, and since my mother's first husband (not my dad) was very traditional (expecting dinner on the table when he got in, a woman's place in the home or out earning money to support her man's education etc) I think it was quite a shock for her.

I was raised to keep my things nice, which basically means being generally tidy as well, but I think I have inherited also what my mom calls her "messy slob/neat and clean" thing, where we are picky about some things but will let others go. For example I am much more likely to do the dishes right after using them, but will leave stacks of my papers or clothes lying around, especially if they aren't getting in anyone's way but my own, until I eventually get round to tidying it. Mark can attest to the state of our spare room as evidence for this. And maybe he'll want to comment on the house-cleaning state otherwise :) (Though I do feel like we're in a state of equilibrium that hasn't created any real difficulties. He cooks more than I do, I do more laundry and dishes than he does etc.)

I also hate phoning up for takeaway, and once caused a huge row at my flat by not taking on board while-I-was-on-the-phone order changes from my flatmate/her boyfriend.

(PS sorry Chris)

Dr C OTM I fear.

you all need downy wrinkle releaser. it's magic spray that makes your clothes smell nice and the wrinkles fall out. and it really works. i'll be happy to give a little demo sometime...haven't ironed in years.

i also thing that dr. c is right-- a big part of the problem is that women feel an obligation to do all the housey things (including childcare), while most men haven't learned that constant guilt about having a dirty house thing.

but i could probably make good money selling it here...good idea!

But fails the personality profile test...

Some actress said in an interview that even when she was on wellfare, she was able to get a housecleaner. She hated cleaning so much, she would make sure she always had a cleaner.

Note to self: get cleaner. I hate HATE HATE cleaning. I rather work a day extra - which is impossible since I work 7 days a week; hah!

I also hear what some of the boys are trying to say. That it's important for women (and men) to express what their expectations are when they embark upon living together. It's not something I really thought about (communication was never the strong part of our relationship) and it's kind of an eye-opener now, that I'm asking potential housemates, perfectly straightforwardly, questions about chores and living situations that I never actually *dared* to ask my partner when I moved in with him. Which points towards a big, fat problem, yeah.

ha ha, me and Vic do this, only I'm the one who's not in the house

I see many women trying to do all or many of these things at once, and no matter how supportive their partner I don't think men feel obligated in the same way to juggle everything. I also don't think that most men are able to do this - something to do with the way that many men look at the roles as 'tasks' rather than 'relationships'. (this is not well expressed here - I know exactly what I mean - will think how to explain better).

What I hate doing most is moving things to clean around or under them (and the things themselves, of course). So I tend to turn a blind eye to bookshelves, bathroom surfaces, the liquor corner, and only do them when either a room is entirely shifted or I somehow motivate myself to spring clean.

I've already mentioned on here finding (moth?) larvae in my ironing pile - it had been there about 9 months. Ick.

Obviously I can only speak for myself, but I don't see there being a place for the old-fashioned roles any more. My husband and I are a team, and there are tasks to be done - bringing in money, doing the cleaning, cooking, ironing etc. and they get split up between us, and generally everything works out. I don't walk around thinking 'oh my god, I'm such a crap wife' because chris does all the cooking.

But then I'm not one of the individuals who is despairing cos I can't 'do it all'

I do think that things are changing though, and that my generation is moving towards the more realistic expectations.

i assume we've done a "god, can't some people's children (nobody here i'm sure) be dreadful" thread?

The pressure I feel right now (mid-twenties) is that I should be leading this fizzing and glamorous life: a glittering career, a flat stomach, a cool-looking home (our coffee table is a futon base, eat that Wallpaper*), wild parties and pricey cocktails. I'm not and I can't. Career is a fucking struggle, I'm in horrible amounts of debt, I'm getting sick of cheap wine, cutting my own hair and buying all my clothes second hand and trying to believe this is cool. My life is closer to a sans-baby Taste Of Honey or L-Shaped Room than Sex In The City

I don't know to what extent it answers Dr C's question but for me alot of the pressure comes from peers, certain people are always texting me with bits of "news" which actually amounts to "LOOK AT THE INTERVIEW I JUST GOT, LOOK AT IT! BEAT THAT!!" as opposed to actual efforts to be friendly or say hi or even a desire for me to feel happy for them. There's a sense of the writing career being a sort of race, and it's wearying. Especially what's annoying is that they're about as much in control of their careers as you are, ie not at all! Yet still the brave face, which I'm sure I've probably feigned aswell. It's just such a divisive career really.

Constantly think I amn't getting enough work or won't end up with a decent salary or will just get more and more bitter about it all over the years. Or that I'll get more work eventually but ultimately it's a sort of anonymous nobody career and a waste of time. I think it comes from just bad treatment by mags and eds and stuff, constant insecurity.

Also I think for me it's the discovery that a good freelance career is not really in your own hands at all. Or perhaps it's not even possible and something else would be better.

I personally think you have to be zen in your mind but ambitious in your actions. I mean, I am very ambitious, but (partly because I don't really hang out with other writers these days) I can't say I feel *that* much pressure. I'd like to get paid better, but that's about it in terms of getting worked up. When a see a peer or friend's flatmate doing v well in terms of coverage, I can usually manage a good sneer to cover up my own wounded ego.

I think Anna & Ronan's lives are cool.

this is a total thread mutation but nonetheless. I don't mind friends doing well, as in the guys who helped me get the bit of work I do get, I can feel happy for them, because they emailed me when I had nothing and to this day attempt to help me or at least let me know what's going on in an office where I don't work.

But it's the people who just seem to want to have one up all the time, whether it's the vip show they went to or whatever, I don't know why but my blood boils just thinking about it. And some of these people probably do feel this is sort of competetive fun or something, I don't know.

And then afterwards as a sort of smack in the mouth I guess, they were like "oh I don't really want to write about music, I really amn't bothered about my stuff cos it's not what I want to do".

gah!

See also "the price of getting what you want is getting what you once wanted"

(Actually I think the discussion's kind of on topic but it struck me as noticeable that the convo had become a little male-dominated.)

x-post I noticed too Tim, perhaps we should start another thread, though as ever this seems a step too far or a sort of pat on the back for our own discussion.

I felt terrible. And have learned to be more open-ended in my questions when I catch up with people...

But I usually think this. And almost as incoherently.

x-post a vague point but seemingly wrapped up in perhaps unintended harshness.

While I'm pleased to see that you chaps are trying to make the best of huge pressures as well, you haven't really covered the biological clock thing. Do you feel under pressure to have babies and be a great dad? Do you worry that if you leave it too late, your child might have learning difficulties or be schizophrenic? It's what they say nowadays.

The biological clock for blokes is more The Clock of The Long Now, to be honest. CF rener's dad, and indeed may-december marriages all the time done the country.

At the same time though, when people can, and do, lay claim to youth until their early thirties, these are pushed further and further to the back of the mind. My best friend's parents got married at the age of 19 and had her when they were 21 - she's 24 and single and they treat her like some sort of old spinster - I think that's sad.

I didn't want it to be exclusively female, but I wanted to make sure that both gender perspectives got in. We've had some theory about expectations and aspirations, and we've had some personal experience sharing about how each of us has dealt with those expectations within our relationships. We've had a very potentially loaded debate involving gender which stayed friendly and mostly serious/on-topic. Pat yourselves on the back, ILX, this makes me pleased.

So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit." And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized.

oh god, it wasn't supposed to be at all; in my head it was a joke against me cos i always ask pete what films he's seen lately whenever i see him, and i feel bad cos it's like i'm reducing him to just someone who watches films. which is of course what me comment above does. aaarrrggghh. sorry pete.

The May-December phenomenon of which Andrew speaks is truly depressing. There are too many lonely women hanging around in Ireland who married much older men, who then died long before them, or who didn't get married at all because by the time they were ready to be married, they were twenty-seven and all the men their age were marrying nineteen year olds. I'm in the lucky position that my parents were married when they were about 23, had four kids in eight years (three of us in the first four years), and are now at a good age for us all to appreciate each other. I am already ten years older than my mother was when she had me, and there isn't a sniff of a child in the offing for me or my brothers. It's kind of depressing.

However, I do think that men have a bit of a psychological biological clock. At least, well, some of them start thinking "If I wait too long to have a kid, I'll be in my 50s or 60s and suffering arthritis when I'm supposed to be teaching them how to ride a bike."

Late parenthood isn't new on one side: in small communities (certainly in Ireland) a woman is of marriagable age when she's primed for kids (25-35?), a man when he's come into his inheritance (40-70). Mum's parents were annoyed when she married Dad (25) at age 23, because she'd never see a penny. And they'd have been right: my grandad is still alive 36 years later.

Word.
(many x-posts)
This led me to wonder how much of the 'juggling' aspect (and hence 'despair' or at least public dialog about) comes when children are involved. Seems to treat things as if a woman doesn't have to juggle a bunch of other roles anyway without children in the picture, or as if children are the only things that make a woman's existence worthy of that kind of complexity...? I dunno, maybe I am reading into the whole juggling thing. Something about the way that children are sometimes treated as the only major milestone kind of bugs me.

My clock is ticking, but it's settled down a lot over the past 18 months as things started coming together.

Also, I have changed, and my priorities have changed more in the past year and a half (entering the mid-30s) than I changed in the entire decade before that. that's not a biological clock, that's not societal pressure, that's just me growing up and maturing and discovering what's really important in life. Love, companionship, stability is worth more to me now.

I work at home full-time while my beloved Scott watches our toddler full-time at home. He does most of the cooking and cleaning. I'm hoping he will post on this thread, as a man in a typically female role.

I'm 37, he's 35.

We're trying to work it out so I work less and he has more time for his passion and vocation - rock criticism.

I agree with the comment upthread about 2 parents working often being more expensive.

But what it comes down to is that there isn't really ever enough time to combine work, children, a clean home, some personal time -- we always both feel like we're burning the candle at both ends. Something always has to give (usually home cleanliness).

And this ILX habit is like having another child, too.

Dr.C brings up something truly important. It changes EVERYTHING. And it is kinda unprecendented, no? For one thing, instead of people getting married and having kids young and that being their "life", people in their 30's have already had a "life" or even lives. Moving around a lot, lots of partners, lots of jobs. This sets people up for disappointment and stress when they finally decide to do the marriage/kids thing.

What does a typical 42 yr old Dad act like?

**This led me to wonder how much of the 'juggling' aspect (and hence 'despair' or at least public dialog about) comes when children are involved**

I've been pushing this angle upthread, not because I think that they're a woman's only raison d'etre, but because I truly believe that once they arrive they change things completely and the level of complexity and responsibility can be very tough to handle. It throws into question a lot of things that you wouldn't otherwise need to think about - should I work? should we move somewhere else? etcetc

I know when I finally get married (doesn't look like that's ever going to happen right now, but I still hope it will) I will be marrying that person because I have already explored all the other options, and I think that makes me more likely to stay with them. Because I don't feel like I have any wild oats left to sow.

There's a lot to be said for wild oat sowing in your youth. Sure beats waiting until you're 50 and have a wife and two kids to walk out on.

I know more than one woman who had a child late in life to fill a void or as a cure for loneliness or just to find meaning to their 40+-year-old lives. Gotta wonder what the psych damage is to children of those types of mothers.

On the other hand, as an "older" mother, i feel like I have more wisdom than I did when I was younger -- I'm prolly a better mom than I would've been 10 years ago because I'm more comfortable in my own skin.

I'm less adventurous the older I get, so I wonder if that will have a detrimental effect on my child. (E.g. if I were a young mom, I might do things like take my son on a water rafting trip - that trip might have been his best childhood memory)

I think there are pros and cons to young parenthood and old parenthood.

I hate working. I hate my so-called career. If given the choice, I’d totally be a housewife. I’d breed Persian cats. I hate coming home every night and feeling so exhausted that I cannot do anything except lounge around like a big lazy asshole. Every night it seems someone invites me out to do something and I’m just so tired, I never ever accept the invitation. The weekends aren’t enjoyable because all I do is dread Monday. I can’t imagine leaving work every day at 5 and coming home to a hungry husband and kids and having to cook and clean for them. No way.

Of course, this has more to do with my shitty job than work in general. I’ve had jobs before that didn’t exhaust me so much and that I actually enjoyed.

My older sister is always complaining about how no one wants her because she's 30. How all the guys her age are dating women 23-26. Is this really true?

to Scott... I dunno. I kinda see your point, where it gets easier or even habit forming to dump your partner and replace them when things start to get difficult. If it's not perfect, why work on it? (I fear this is symptomatic of my current breakup, or at least my partner suffered from this.)

Of course, as someone else pointed out very early on in this thread, it's nice to have the luxury of these decisions. A lot of people don't.

That's one reason I'm so glad neither of us ever schedules anything.

For a stay-at-home parent, a long nap is a godsend. Time to read the paper, have sex, catch up on cleaning, take a nap yourself.

As for aspirations, trying to live the perfect life, someone upthread said they gave up on having the nicest car/house/whatever and now their much happier. I agree. Fuck keeping up with the Joneses. Does anybody even like the Joneses?

By the way I also like my hair and think 5'1 is the perfect height.

I have very little to add in that much of it revolves around the dynamics of a full-on live-in relationship, something beyond my experience. Yet I did have some brief thoughts, to backtrack a bit, about the siren song of what one 'should' be doing all the time -- the dynamic thrilling JOB in capital letters, an endless social life, always catching up with everything, etc. etc., as sold/discussed/shown via TV and movies (and books and etc.). Drives me up a wall, or it can -- but then again, the sheer joy of, say, relaxing on my couch and reading a book in the light of a lovely sunset, followed by eating dinner out on my apartment balcony, however solitary and not packed with excitement and adventure and really wild things, is not something which would make for good cinema.

The sniping C***m does -- and how unsurprising he wouldn't show up on a thread where the discussion has stayed remarkably respectful and serious -- about how I supposedly sit around a computer 24/7 and do 'nothing' is both a misapprehension of my regular activities but also an attempt, however pitiful, to posit life as supposedly this never-ending series of social adventures one must do. And that's a caricature, a projection.

I'm 32 and I've never had problems snaring younger - MUCH younger - men, and they always say they love going out with older women cuz the women/girls their age are too flighty. I also likes the young mens =)

And don't men these days tend to fill the same range of roles: son, brother, employee, cook, diaper changer, dish washer, etc. etc.?

I must be going out with the wrong guys, as I'm hard pressed to think of many who even knew how to use a washing machine, let alone willingly, without asking, just DO washing, washing up, vacuuming, loo /shower scrubbing, taking out garbage etc.

Maybe Ive just been around a bunch of immature gits, who knows.

I don't know. I started this thread thinking "Argh, that's what's wrong, I am trying to combine too many roles, how can I possibly be Whip-smart Logical Database Goddess and Adoring Sexy Girlfriend and Moody Artist and Chief Cook, all at the same time?" but through the course of this thead, I realised, that's not the problem at all. The problem is there was poor to no bloody communication in my relationship, and I am more prepared to ask complete strangers whose flats I am viewing about their preferences and habits on dishwashing, cooking and household chores than I was to ask my beloved the same questions when I moved in, coz somehow I thought love would take care of all that.

So...

*cough*

Also, for ladies and the whole biological clock stuff -- does the lack of necessity for mens come into this? I half-think we (20-something mens) are a pretty useless lot of post-Fight Club shirkers who aren't up to the challenge of kids.

I still don't know what a typical 42 yr old Dad acts like tho'.

ah shit I'm too tired to remember. it was something about feeling pressured to be wonder-mum and also study, raise the next generation, keep a perfect home, make time for myself, look great, find a man, pay the bills, be creative, be positive, rah rah rah

Amber wants to be on the telly again. The next day she watched 'Ministry of Mayhem' which she enjoys but on watching various bucket flinging, adds "That's why I don't want to be on the telly. Not on that kind of programme anyway. I want to be on Behaviour telly." So, it looks like 'serious' drama only. She's six by the way.

i'm concerned about this. i've lived the short attention span life for a long time, and really enjoy it. it's totally selfish. it's good fun, for the most part.

which is why i wonder if i'll ever be able to put myself in a situation that is really and truly about 'compromise' (a big part of the juggling thing, i think?)-- including healthy cohabitation, marriage, kids. maybe it'll all change for me at some point, like kate says and has said elsewhere, but i'm not sure it'll happen to me. and not that sure of whether it bothers me or not.

I insist, and I continue to insist, the more that I see of other couples, that the "room of your own" private space to retreat to actually works. But I'm fucked (literally, hah) if I can convince Joe to even try it. Sighs with frustration.

Settling down seems to suggest that it is all volitile beforehand, as opposed to a natural continuation of where a couple is going.

But people's paradigm shifts are not always the same. It might be the deepest most natural commitment for some to get married and have children, and for others it might be travelling the world together as aid workers or something. Or even being apart (I'm still prepared for the possibility that Matt will go off to be a Buddhist monk), but still committed to each other on a deep level.

But people will have different balances. Another fellow I know, not a close friend but someone I've known for a decade and who is a cool dude, married a couple of years back. When I was talking to him recently about things and we spoke over life lessons learned, he noted how he is much more self-contained than his wife, and how they've had to learn -- over time, with patience -- each others' signals, ie him sitting in a corner reading a book or playing a video game and wanting to be left alone is not some sort of sign that he hates her, while her wish to go out together to do something or just to spend a little quality time hugging and chatting during the day isn't her being overwhelmingly clingy.

I realized several years ago, when I was about 19 I think, that I was far too serious and needed to lighten up. I was stressed out all the time. Then again when I was 22 and working, I turned into a big ball of stress. I gained a bunch of weight and had this weird lifestyle of being REALLY stressed at work and having as much fun as possible after work.

Anyway, I worry too much. I always have. And I've always got a million To Do lists in my head. However, as Nick has pointed out, I don't necessarily do all these things, just stress out about them. I'm obsessive but I never satisfy myself by doing it all.

I think about having kids a lot and, of course, I worry about it. I'm this stressed NOW, how could I ever handle kids? As it is, I feel like I don't have enough time to do fun things and then that time is also about compromise with the bf. And also I get tired from working and want to veg. So, here I am, worn out on the couch after work, staring at balls of kitty hair in the corner, and feeling like I'm the laziest bastard in the world.

Fortunately for me, Nick does ALL the cooking and also tries to calm me down. I just wish I could learn to calm myself down.

One thing that really helped me a couple of years ago was to stop reading Cosmo. IT just made me really depressed. So I stopped looking at it and started trying to eat healthier, going on walks, and allowing myself to relax my forehead now and again (and I don't mean Botox). Now I'm allowing myself to look at fashion mags.

Ok, now does this have anything to do with this thread? I hope so, because that's what it meant for me.

IDK if there's a better thread for this, maybe one of the feminism threads, but I thought this was an interesting article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/11/magazine/the-opt-out-generation-wants-back-in.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&smid=fb-share

Kinda love how the husbands are clueless assholes.

Well I didn't think they *all* came off that way.