More Michael Moore hatred

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http://www.bowlingfortruth.com

More proof that time (and astute research) will eventually reveal Moore for what he is.

roger adultery (roger adultery), Sunday, 20 June 2004 18:18 (twenty-two years ago)

a woman

Symplistic (shmuel), Sunday, 20 June 2004 18:27 (twenty-two years ago)

And a lovely woman at that.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 20 June 2004 18:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Obviously a site that talks about "America-hating leftists" and quotes approvingly from The Weekly Standard is a paragon of objectivity.

rasheed wallace (rasheed wallace), Sunday, 20 June 2004 18:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, thank God there's a site willing to point out the "flaws in the name Bowling for Columbine." wtf?! rasheed otm obv.

roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Sunday, 20 June 2004 18:44 (twenty-two years ago)

"first of all, like, columbine's a town. how can you bowl for it? like, duh."

amateur!st (amateurist), Sunday, 20 June 2004 18:50 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm stuck on "The point of this website is a lot of things"

roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Sunday, 20 June 2004 18:51 (twenty-two years ago)

"There are a thousand points of light on this website."

David R. (popshots75`), Sunday, 20 June 2004 18:54 (twenty-two years ago)

For making me deal with the whole "ends justifying means" bullshit, I sometimes hate Michael Moore more than the people whose ends and means both horrify me.

CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 20 June 2004 18:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Look, yeah, this site clearly has motivations of their own, but there's no hiding the fact that Michael Moore uses the same tactics we find disgusting when the right uses them. I think I'm more offended by him because I EXPECT BETTER from the side that claims to put a high value on consideration, respect and honesty.

CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 20 June 2004 18:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree with this. However, the reports on the new movie, from even some conservatives, suggest that it transcends prior complaints about Moore. We will see.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:00 (twenty-two years ago)

I've related my distaste for Moore previously, but everything I've heard indicates that he isn't pulling out his usual misleading stunts and tricks for this one.

miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:03 (twenty-two years ago)

I assumed the next film would end with him walking into the sunset while a child screamed "come back, Shane!" but I hope you folks are right.

CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Do you guys really find him as misleading as the right?

roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:10 (twenty-two years ago)

As misleading as someone like John Stossel, yes. As misleading as Falwell's "Bill Clinton is an assassin and international drug-runner!" videos, no.

miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:11 (twenty-two years ago)

I just don't think a Liberal Fox News is the answer to Fox News.

CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:12 (twenty-two years ago)

I have to admit I'm still not 100% about what he's mislead people to believe. Not an enormous Michael Moore fan anyway, but I'd be interested to know more (just NOT FROM THAT SITE, plz)

roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:13 (twenty-two years ago)

I wish I knew of a good, well-researched site that points out the various innacuracies (the man can't film a damn RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE video without fucking around) but the only people who can be bothered to make one seem to be conservatives. Not surprising, really.

CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:18 (twenty-two years ago)

try spinsanity.com, hippies

Symplistic (shmuel), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:19 (twenty-two years ago)

One that really bothered me was in a cartoon from BfC, he makes a big deal out of intimating that the outlawing of the KKK and the creation of the NRA were connected, when that's clearly bullshit. The modern NRA is bad enough on its own, there's absolutely no reason to play with the facts and turn it into a racist organization.

It would be better to say that I have a problem with his tactics and style, more than anything. Bluster, shouting down the other guy instead of providing a reasonable argument, etc.

miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Shouting down what other guy? It's a film. And I took the NRA-KKK thing to be a joke

Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Um, he's done quite a bit of stuff aside from that one film. If it's a joke, then Moore needs to decide if he wants to be a comedian or political activist. If you're going to be an activist, you can't sabotage your own arguments (which Moore tends to lack in the first place) by screwing up basic facts and information.

miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, I thought that was a pretty obvious joke, and not one that really screwed up my grip on the facts in any way.

roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Moore needs to decide if he wants to be a comedian or political activist.


What if he decides to be a political activist that's capable of making jokes? Are you afraid time will stop?

roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, I know. I don't like Michael Moore, but I don't get why people hate him for reasons other than 'it's not all that funny'. When he makes shows or films he doesn't have a duty to represent anyone else's views - he is presenting propaganda. The claim that he lies rather than presents biased information is one I haven't seen much evidence for. Bowlingfortruth.com just presents a lot of things he says and claims they are lies because their bias puts it in a different context. e.g they complain that he calls the Shah a dictator rather than a king - which is surely a matter of opinion. I find it annoying that as a leftist I get lumped together with his somewhat highschool interpretations of politics, but I don't care really. He gets people interested in politics, and maybe after seeing his films, watching his shows or reading his books they will read more politics. Most kids I know wouldn't talk about politics but loved Bowling For Columbine. The left shouldn't jettison him just becase he's getting some flack.

Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:38 (twenty-two years ago)

It was humorous, yes. A joke, not really. He's using a laugh to insinuate something that's incorrect by any reading of the facts and history.

There's no justifiable reason to do that in something that purports to be a documentary.

Moore makes the worst kind of propaganda - his political goals outweigh everything else, and serve to undermine any rational basis for his beliefs. It's fine for getting people to side with you on an emotional level - as evidenced by the general left-wing love of BfC - but it's really shit for making an effectual argument or changing opinions and views.

miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:39 (twenty-two years ago)

milo OTM. I kind of liked the idea of my side of the political spectrum not having its own Rush Limbaugh.

CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:42 (twenty-two years ago)

You're talking about the fucking South Park-style thing in the middle of BfC? Are you also going to accuse him of insinuating that people don't have necks?

roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:45 (twenty-two years ago)

I think you're right Milo, it's definitely an emotional argument for the left - but I think that's common on both sides of the spectrum, and I don't think it's necessarily illegitimate about emotional politics.

But I still think the KKK-NRA thing was supposed to be historical irony rather than any attempt to directly equate the two organisations.

Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Maybe this is just the privileged perspective of a semi-educated straight white male, but I'd much rather have a bunch of kids who became politicized because of a reasonable argument, or because of passion or something, rather than who became politicized because of bad propaganda and manipulation. I'd rather have them in the middle or even on the other guy's side based on a cool, critical look at the issues, rather than on my side fueled by pure emotion.

(In part because people who don't have a strong grounding for their beliefs are the most likely to flip-flop and switch sides.)

miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:46 (twenty-two years ago)

otm.

I don't understand why people think he can't put jokes in! Is it because some people are dumb enough to take it as a fact? Anyone with a handle on anything can seperate the entertaining comic relief bits from the serious, informative bits.

roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:48 (twenty-two years ago)

xpost

roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:48 (twenty-two years ago)

but things like this and even, god help us, Rage Against the Machine albums can inspire a passion which leads kids to explore and develop their evidence and rationals for political standpoints.

Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:48 (twenty-two years ago)

It's entry level politics, milo. It's not for very educated people or people with any previous interest in politics. It's basic. It's supposed to inspire people to take an interest in and read about politics and learn the actual, non-funny facts that Michael Moore jazzes up into a funny, entertaining movie to get them there.
xpost

roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:51 (twenty-two years ago)

He can put all the jokes in he wants. I luv the clip in the Fahrenheit trailer where Bush says something threatening to the evildoers and then goes "Now watch this shot."

That's brilliant. What I've got a problem with are jokes that don't resemble the facts. If it was a right-wing documentary implying through humor that Bill Clinton was friends with bin Laden or something, lefties would (rightfully) be up in arms.

Kevin, it's great that we have some political aspects of pop culture. That doesn't excuse playing fast and loose with evidence and avoiding making a reasonable argument at all. (de la Rocha and Morello's politics tend to make more sense than Moore's from the interviews I've read) You can have a Michael Moore or BfC inspiring kids without any of Moore's flaws and problems.

miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:53 (twenty-two years ago)

I find that entry-level politics concept to be insulting to the intelligence of the average person. They don't need to be treated like morons. Give them an argument, without it being Al Gore-boring, and they'll respond.

Moore (and Limbaugh)(and Fox News) insult the intelligence of their audience by assuming that they can't handle both sides of an argument, or that they can't let facts get in the way of a good rant. I find that, as I said, unhealthy.

miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah - I'm a trainee teacher, and so I'm not allowed to show overtly political stuff to the kids, but if I was Moore would not be first point of call. But I think the amount of protest thats kicked up around him more than outweighs his importance as a politician-filmmaker-comedian etc.

Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Kevin, re: your statemnet a few posts up, that's bullshit. Do you remember the shellacking that poor fuck from Dismemberment Plan got on this board because he dared to say he wasn't opposed to the war? How 'offensive' you are as a 'political' voice in the art world is directly proportional to what side you happen to take. I'm expecting some kind of reverse McCarthyism on the horizon quite soon...

roger adultery (roger adultery), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Roger, Obviously that depends on the groups you hang in - I'd expect more anger at a pro-war stance on a board that's mostly liberal than I would on freerepublic. Young poeple tend to the left as do artists, musicians etc. I don't think the 'reverse-mccarthyism' is in much effect in the west at large.

Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Sunday, 20 June 2004 20:03 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm expecting some kind of reverse McCarthyism on the horizon quite soon...

I'd take statements like this a little more seriously were it not for those currently dominant in politics.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 20 June 2004 20:21 (twenty-two years ago)

I was gonna say! McCarthyism would require a modicum of political power.

CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 20 June 2004 20:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Kevin, re: your statemnet a few posts up, that's bullshit. Do you remember the shellacking that poor fuck from Dismemberment Plan got on this board because he dared to say he wasn't opposed to the war?

You mean the one that never actually happened? this thread has some people agreeing with him, some people saying they disagree but respect him, and very few actually dissing him. There's like only four truly agressive messages on the entire thread!

Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Sunday, 20 June 2004 21:13 (twenty-two years ago)

multiple x-posts here...

e.g they complain that he calls the Shah a dictator rather than a king - which is surely a matter of opinion

Not if you were a typical Iranian citizen during the Shah's regeime. A dictator is still a dictator no matter if he has the blessing of the US or not.

I find that entry-level politics concept to be insulting to the intelligence of the average person. They don't need to be treated like morons. Give them an argument, without it being Al Gore-boring, and they'll respond.

I disagree here, the "average person" is spectacularly ignorant and disengaged with respect to political and civic knowledge. Historically, the average person has responded by not voting.

Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Sunday, 20 June 2004 22:10 (twenty-two years ago)

What I find amusing is that with all the resources that the right has, why are they making their own movies in support of Bush and the war?

Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Sunday, 20 June 2004 22:12 (twenty-two years ago)

People can only be swayed by logic and facts if that is what they're looking for in the first place. But I'm guessing everyone has a few opinions that they've arrived at when they try to understand their emotional reaction to something. I find the idea that emotions play no part in our decision-making, or that they exist outside of reasoning, a bit odd. Moreover, there are several sites on the web that debunk the spinsanity and other claims - Moore himself points to the sources that debunk their claims on his website.

Kerry (dymaxia), Sunday, 20 June 2004 22:25 (twenty-two years ago)

I think Ebert is OTM re: BfC here:
http://www.suntimes.com/output/eb-feature/cst-ftr-moore18.html

Ebert writes: The pitfall for Moore is not subjectivity, but accuracy. We expect him to hold an opinion and argue it, but we also require his facts to be correct. I was an admirer of his previous doc, the Oscar-winning "Bowling for Columbine," until I discovered that some of his "facts" were wrong, false or fudged.

In some cases, he was guilty of making a good story better, but in other cases (such as his ambush of Charlton Heston) he was unfair, and in still others (such as the wording on the plaque under the bomber at the Air Force Academy) he was just plain wrong, as anyone can see by going to look at the plaque.

Because I agree with Moore's politics, his inaccuracies pained me, and I wrote about them in my Answer Man column. Moore wrote me that he didn't expect such attacks "from you, of all people." But I cannot ignore flaws simply because I agree with the filmmaker. In hurting his cause, he wounds mine.

For some reason, Moore kinda reminds me of Orson Welles's character in Touch of Evil - both have good intentions, but they use the wrong methods. And there's the bloatedness factor. And in both cases, they are up against Charlton Heston (who plays a Mexican narc in Touch of Evil). Hmm.

Ernest P. (ernestp), Sunday, 20 June 2004 22:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Michael Moore's biggest flaw is his contempt for his audience. In his major films (discounting the utter crap "The Big One") he deals with real, pressing, and important issues, yet still feels compelled to muddle the message for the sake of a good joke or set-up. That's where the humor hurts him, when it becomes more important than the message. He also has an annoying habit of, in interviews, telling journalists he's just an entertainer and comedian, not a documentary maker, and then in other interviews pushing his films as flat-out non-fiction documentary. Frustrating, at the very least.

From what I hear about “9/11,” however, he does leave himself out of the film more than ever before, which solves some problems, but no doubt the guy still wanders off point for much of the run-time. This is actually the first of his films I feel compelled to see in the theatres, not for all the nonsense stuff either already debunked (Bin Laden charter flights out of the U.S. on 9/11) or silly (lets mock the Congress!) but as a (perhaps) damning indictment of the misleading march to War and messy clean-up. We shall see.

Then again, the fact that Moore is all but threatening his critics with libel this time out makes me want to see him fail, fail, fail.

Josh in Chicago (Josh in Chicago), Sunday, 20 June 2004 22:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Do you remember the shellacking that poor fuck from Dismemberment Plan got on this board because he dared to say he wasn't opposed to the war?

boo hoo. not nearly as bad as the shellacking the entire world is taking from our vicious, wrong-headed foreign policy.

lauren (laurenp), Sunday, 20 June 2004 22:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Ebert's a sucker for ignoring how shitty something is because of its message. Three and a half stars for BULWORTH, my GOD.

And I'm assuming you're wondering why the right AREN'T making their own movies in support of Bush, Elvis T. And I think they are, just in an understandably less overt way.

http://www.crankycritic.com/archive02/posters/weweresoldiers.jpg

CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 20 June 2004 22:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Kerry, no one has suggested that emotion has to be stripped. I don't think there's a leftist alive who arrived there without emotion.

But there's a difference in that, and propaganda designed specifically to prey on emotion and to do no enlightening and no reasoning. When that's done in the name of pro-American propaganda, we complain (Jessica Lynch, perhaps?).

miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Sunday, 20 June 2004 22:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Sorry, but I don't understand your concept of propaganda. He asked the question, "why are there so many handgun murders in the US", and came up with some possible answers, but did not provide a definitive answer. How is that propaganda?

Kerry (dymaxia), Sunday, 20 June 2004 22:38 (twenty-two years ago)

What we need is fewer movies like:

http://www.michaelmoore.com/images_la/f911-home-interim_03.jpg

and more movies like:

http://www.impawards.com/1999/posters/three_kings.jpg

Josh in Chicago (Josh in Chicago), Sunday, 20 June 2004 22:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, those poster documentaries are the shit.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 20 June 2004 22:47 (twenty-two years ago)


HOLLYWOOD, Calif.

MICHAEL MOORE is not coy about his hopes for "Fahrenheit
9/11," his blistering documentary attack on President Bush
and the war in Iraq. He wants it to be remembered as the
first big-audience, election-year film that helped unseat a
president.

"And it's not just a hope," the Oscar-winning filmmaker
said in a phone interview last week, describing focus
groups in Michigan in April at which, after seeing the
movie, previously undecided voters expressed eagerness to
defeat Mr. Bush. "We found that if you entered the theater
on the fence, you fell off it somewhere during those two
hours," he said. "It ignites a fire in people who had given
up."

The movie's indictment of the president is nothing if not
sprawling. Mr. Moore suggests that Mr. Bush and his
administration jeopardized national security in an effort
to placate Bush family cronies in Saudi Arabia, that the
White House helped members of Mr. bin Laden's family to
flee the United States after Sept. 11 and that the
administration manipulated terrorism alert levels in order
to scare Americans into supporting the invasion of Iraq.

Mr. Moore's previous films generated a cottage industry of
conservative commentators eager to prove sloppiness and
exaggeration in his films; a handful of mainstream critics
have also found flaws. But if "Fahrenheit 9/11" attracts
the audience Mr. Moore and his distributors are predicting,
Mr. Moore may face an onslaught of fact-checking unlike
anything he - or any other documentary filmmaker - has ever
experienced. After all, White House officials and the Bush
family began impugning the film even before any of them had
seen it.

"Outrageously false," said Dan Bartlett, the White House
communications director, last month when told about the
film's assertion of a sinister connection between Mr. Bush
and the family of Osama bin Laden. The former president
George H. W. Bush was quoted in The New York Daily News
calling Mr. Moore a "slime ball" and describing the
documentary as "a vicious personal attack on our son."

So how will Mr. Moore's movie stand up under close
examination? Is the film's depiction of Mr. Bush as a lazy
and duplicitous leader, blinded by his family's financial
ties to Arab moneymen and the Saudi Arabian royal family,
true to fact?

Mr. Moore and his distributors have refused to circulate
copies of the film and its script before the film's release
this Friday; his production team said that as of last
Wednesday, there was no final script because the film was
still undergoing minor editing - for clarity, they said,
not accuracy.

After a year spent covering the federal commission
investigating the Sept. 11 attacks, I was recently allowed
to attend a Hollywood screening. Based on that single
viewing, and after separating out what is clearly presented
as Mr. Moore's opinion from what is stated as fact, it
seems safe to say that central assertions of fact in
"Fahrenheit 9/11" are supported by the public record
(indeed, many of them will be familiar to those who have
closely followed Mr. Bush's political career).

Mr. Moore is on firm ground in arguing that the Bushes,
like many prominent Texas families with oil interests, have
profited handsomely from their relationships with prominent
Saudis, including members of the royal family and of the
large and fabulously wealthy bin Laden clan, which has
insisted it long ago disowned Osama. Mr. Moore spends
several minutes in the film documenting ties between the
president and James R. Bath, a financial advisor to a
prominent member of the bin Laden family who was an
original investor in Mr. Bush's Arbusto energy company and
who served with the future president in the Air National
Guard in the early 1970's. The Bath friendship, which
indirectly links Mr. Bush to the family of the world's most
notorious terrorist, has received less attention from
national news organization than it has from reporters in
Texas, but it has been well documented.

Mr. Moore charges that President Bush and his aides paid
too little attention to warnings in the summer of 2001 that
Al Qaeda was about to attack, including a detailed Aug. 6,
2001, C.I.A. briefing that warned of terrorism within the
country's borders. In its final report next month, the
Sept. 11 commission can be expected to offer support to
this assertion. Mr. Moore says that instead of focusing on
Al Qaeda, the president spent 42 percent of his first eight
months in office on vacation; the figure came not from a
conspiracy-hungry Web site but from a calculation by The
Washington Post.

The most valid criticisms of the film are likely to involve
the artful way that Mr. Moore connects the facts, and
whether he has left out others that might undermine his
scalding attack. A great many statistics fly by in the
movie - such as assertions that 6 percent to 7 percent of
the United States is owned by Saudi Arabians, and that
Saudi companies have paid more than $1.4 billion to Bush
family interests. But Mr. Moore doesn't explain how he
arrived at them, or what these vague interests comprise.
Mr. Moore and his team say they have news reports and other
evidence to back up the numbers and that it will be posted
on his Web site (www.michaelmoore.com) after the film's
release.

Mr. Moore may also be criticized for the way he portrays
the evacuation of the extended bin Laden family from the
United States after Sept. 11. As the Sept. 11 commission
has found, the Saudi government was able to pull strings at
senior levels of the Bush administration to help the bin
Ladens leave the United States. But while the film clearly
suggests that the flights occurred at a time when all air
traffic was grounded immediately after the attacks ("Even
Ricky Martin couldn't fly," Mr. Moore says over video of
the singer wandering in an airport lobby), the Sept. 11
commission said in a report this April that there was "no
credible evidence that any chartered flights of Saudi
Arabian nationals departed the United States before the
reopening of national airspace" and that the F.B.I. had
concluded that no one aboard the flights was involved in
Sept. 11.

In conversation, Mr. Moore defended the scene, saying his
goal was to show how the White House was eager to bend and
break the rules for Saudi friends - in this case, the
extended family of the terrorist who had just brought down
the twin towers and attacked the Pentagon. And as reporters
have found, the White House still refuses to document fully
how the flights were arranged.

"I don't want to get lost in the forest because of a single
tree," Mr. Moore said. "The main point I want people to go
away with is that these people got special treatment
because they were bin Ladens or Saudi royals, and you and I
would never have been given that treatment."

Mr. Moore may also have to defend his portrayal of Mr.
Bush's presidency as sinking prior to Sept. 11, citing an
inability to win support for his legislation. But he fails
to mention that in May, Congress agreed to Mr. Bush's $1.35
trillion tax cut, the centerpiece of his legislative
agenda. Mr. Moore said that his review of news coverage
before Sept. 11 shows that, with or without the tax cut,
the Bush presidency was floundering before the terrorist
attacks. Mr. Moore said, "I've read what other people wrote
and said at the time, and he was definitely on the ropes."

MR. MOORE usually revels in his role as the target of
conservative attacks, and his delight in playing the
mischievous, little-guy bomb-thrower has brought him fame,
wealth and the devotion of fans more interested in
rhetorical force than precision. But with "Fahrenheit" he
has taken on his biggest and best-defended target yet, and
his production staff says that on his orders they have
taken no chances in checking and double-checking the film,
knowing Bush supporters would pounce on factual mistakes.

Mr. Moore is readying for a conservative counterattack,
saying he has created a political-style "war room" to offer
an instant response to any assault on the film's
credibility. He has retained Chris Lehane, a Democratic
Party strategist known as a master of the black art of
"oppo," or opposition research, used to discredit
detractors. He also hired outside fact-checkers, led by a
former general counsel of The New Yorker and a veteran
member of that magazine's legendary fact-checking team, to
vet the film. And he is threatening to go one step further,
saying he has consulted with lawyers who can bring
defamation suits against anyone who maligns the film or
damages his reputation.

"We want the word out," says Mr. Moore, who says he should
have responded more quickly to allegations of inaccuracy in
his Oscar-winning 2002 anti-gun documentary, "Bowling for
Columbine." "Any attempts to libel me will be met by
force," he said, not an ounce of humor in his familiar
voice. "The most important thing we have is truth on our
side. If they persist in telling lies, knowingly telling a
lie with malice, then I'll take them to court."

As proof of its scrupulousness, the Moore team cites
adjustments it made to the film's portrayal of Attorney
General John Ashcroft. The film is brutal to Mr. Ashcroft,
depicting him as a glassy-eyed architect of efforts to
shred the Constitution, who became Attorney General only
after he proved himself so unpopular in his home state of
Missouri that he lost a Senate race to a former Democratic
governor who died in a plane crash a month before election
day. "Voters preferred the dead guy," Mr. Moore deadpans in
the film, a line that drew belly laughs at recent preview
screenings. (In reality, voters knew they were in effect
casting ballots for the governor's widow).

An earlier version of the film, however, included a
reference to a widely circulated charge, broadcast by CBS
News in July 2001, that Mr. Ashcroft had received warning
of threats and stopped flying on commercial airlines. Tia
Lessin, supervising producer of "Fahrenheit 9/11," said the
reference to the CBS report was cut after Mr. Moore's
fact-checking team found evidence that Mr. Ashcroft had
flown commercially at least twice that summer.

"We have gone through every single word of this film -
literally every word - and verified its accuracy," said
Joanne Doroshow, a public interest lawyer and filmmaker who
shared in a 1993 Oscar for documentaries and who joined the
fact-checking effort last month. Ms. Doroshow is
responsible for preparing what she calls a "fact-checking
bible," with material ranging from newspaper and magazine
articles to copies of the Federal Register, that will allow
the film's lawyers and publicists to provide backup for its
allegations.

That said, Mr. Moore's fact-checkers do not view the film
as straight reportage. "This is an Op-Ed piece, it's not a
news report," said Dev Chatillon, the former general
counsel for The New Yorker. "This is not The New York
Times, it's not a network news report. The facts have to be
right, yes, but this is an individual's view of current
events. And I'm a very firm believer that it is within
everybody's right to examine the actions of their
government."

Besides, it may turn out that the most talked-about moments
in the film are the least impeachable. Mr. Moore makes
extensive use of obscure footage from White House and
network-news video archives, including long scenes that
capture President Bush at his least articulate. For the
White House, the most devastating segment of "Fahrenheit
9/11" may be the video of a befuddled-looking President
Bush staying put for nearly seven minutes at a Florida
elementary school on the morning of Sept. 11, continuing to
read a copy of "My Pet Goat" to schoolchildren even after
an aide has told him that a second plane has struck the
twin towers. Mr. Bush's slow, hesitant reaction to the
disastrous news has never been a secret. But seeing the
actual footage, with the minutes ticking by, may prove more
damaging to the White House than all the statistics in the
world.¬Ý¬Ý

scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 20 June 2004 22:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Sorry, but I don't understand your concept of propaganda. He asked the question, "why are there so many handgun murders in the US", and came up with some possible answers, but did not provide a definitive answer. How is that propaganda?

So it wasn't one-sided at all? Moore provided plenty of ammunition from the right as to possible answers? No, he didn't. And that's OK.

What isn't OK is pushing his political POV by ignoring/blurring facts, ambushing, messing with chronology and the like - rather than simply laying out what's wrong with the NRA. (and this goes beyond BfC)

The "I'm a comedian!"/"I'm a documentarian!" obfuscation is a page taken straight from the Limbaugh playbook, isn't it?

A good counter-example might be Al Franken. He's funnier than Moore (though still not hilarious), but even while doing straight comedy, he avoids the pitfalls of Moore's pranksterism.

miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Sunday, 20 June 2004 22:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Maybe I'm not appreciating some subtlety here, but I really just don't get all the handwringing on the left about Michael Moore at all. Does anyone out there really think he's a serious journalist? An intellectual? Is he driving some mass political movement? Does he aspire to? I gotta say my own answer to each of those questions would be a resounding "no." From where I'm sitting the American left is so completely dysfunctional that Michael Moore's filmmaking is the very least of its concerns.

If Moore's film does some consciousness raising, if it inspires a few heretofore unaware souls to seek to boot Bush out of office, that's just fine with me. I'm way past the point of factual scruples with this administration. Moore's use of a few funky juxtapositions or loosey-goosey edits absolutely pales in comparison to the horrendous prevarication and criminal behavior of the current occupants of the White House. If there's a contemporary equivalent of fiddling while Rome burns, quibbling about a major motion picture would have to be it.

rasheed wallace (rasheed wallace), Sunday, 20 June 2004 23:01 (twenty-two years ago)

'sheed, I hate that line of thinking. "Well, it's OK for our side to fudge things, they're WAY worse over there." That's what they're saying. "Well, it's OK for the President to fudge things, because they're WAY worse over there." It's just a ride on an endless merry-go-round of BS.

Like CeCe said, I liked not having a Rush Limbaugh on my side. You underestimate the extent to which a Michael Moore, known only from this mistakes and his public persona comes to represent everyone left-of-center.

Maybe it's horribly idealistic, but you win by being better than the other guy. You don't win by being just as bad.

miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Sunday, 20 June 2004 23:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Fair enough Milo. And I largely agree with you, but my tolerance has been worn so thin by Chimpco that I can't even conceptualize what fearsome arc a second term might take. However I do think that the left seriously needs to get its shit together bigtime and Michael Moore would be about #3,000 on the list of things that need straightening out.

I'll say this, and then I'll talk about Moore in greater detail once I've actually seen his movie: I really don't think there's any equivalence between Moore's filmmaking techniques and Bush lying about WMD or his connections to the Saudis or any other number of things. And I think the left totally sucks at pointing that out, and enables the comparison. Everyone that goes on some right wing flunkie's cable or radio show this week to talk about this movie ought to hasten to point out that whatever Moore's weaknesses, they have yet to cost a single person their life. We can't let right-wing attack dogs make it sound like Moore is the criminal. Because though he may be a lot of things, that is one thing he most definitely is not.

rasheed wallace (rasheed wallace), Sunday, 20 June 2004 23:27 (twenty-two years ago)

"[Moore] is a horrible human being – horrible human!"

Ray Bradbury piles in

N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 21 June 2004 00:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Bradbury and Godard, who's next? I'd like to see Vincent Gallo and Lars von Trier pile on, just to make the critics list crazier.

miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Monday, 21 June 2004 00:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Jeez, I had no idea Bradbury had become such a bitter man.

o. nate (onate), Monday, 21 June 2004 00:19 (twenty-two years ago)

I would say that maybe that site is taking liberties with their Swedish translation, but he seems to be have been saying it elsewhere (Bradbury Calls Moore 'A Jerk' Over 'Fahrenheit' Title) and has now called on the film to be renamed after all.

N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 21 June 2004 00:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Ha!!

roger adultery (roger adultery), Monday, 21 June 2004 00:36 (twenty-two years ago)

it is a dumb title, but still, I'm gonna go see it (and I don't like Moore).

All this handwringing about Moore's subjectivity is, I say again, completely stupid when you consider the history of documentary film. Documentaries are not objective nor were they ever meant to be. And I still don't think Moore's stuff is as lefty as some other classic docs - Harlan County USA (1976 Best Documentary Oscar winner) comes to mine. Too bad Frank Sinatra's not around to give a disclaimer at the awards ceremony.

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 01:46 (twenty-two years ago)

ie. Peter Davis' oscar winning documentary Hearts and Minds was highly controversial at the time of it's release for it's depiction of Vietnam from the enemies side. Using emotional pictorials to get the message across that the heavy bombing of Vietnam destroyed many civilian villages and took hundreds of civilian lives. One of the best sequences of the film has two elderly sisters painfully describing how their sister was murdered. This important documentary masterpiece is a must see for anybody studying Vietnam.

Documentary award winner Producer Bert Schneider read a controversial Vietnamese telegram as part of his acceptance speech. Later in the ceremony, co-host Frank Sinatra issued a disclaimer on behalf of the Academy disavowing any official endorsement of the telegram's content.

This Moore guy ain't doing anything new, people.

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 01:58 (twenty-two years ago)


All this handwringing about Moore's subjectivity is, I say again, completely stupid when you consider the history of documentary film. Documentaries are not objective nor were they ever meant to be. And I still don't think Moore's stuff is as lefty as some other classic docs - Harlan County USA (1976 Best Documentary Oscar winner) comes to mine. Too bad Frank Sinatra's not around to give a disclaimer at the awards ceremony.

-- hstencil (hstenci...) (webmail), June 20th, 2004 7:46 PM. (hstencil) (later) (link)


hstencil i still think you're missing the point, which ebert clearly articulates: the problem is not *subjectivity* but *accuracy.* and i do think a film claiming to be a "documentary" has a responsible to represent reality as accurately as possible. also, the force of his broader arguments can be sabotaged by lying or half-truths at the level of "details" -- hence the supposed "fact-checking" team moore has ostentatiously employed.

also, what difference does it make if it is "something new" or not? are you berating us for not being aware of the history of documentary film? just because the arguments have been made before, in different circumstances, does not mean we are fools for making them again.

amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 21 June 2004 02:36 (twenty-two years ago)

and sure, there is a long history of politically committed documentary film. are you just flaunting various bits of knowledge or is this relevant to the criticisms of moore?

amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 21 June 2004 02:37 (twenty-two years ago)

OTM

miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Monday, 21 June 2004 02:40 (twenty-two years ago)

which part is OTM?

amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 21 June 2004 02:42 (twenty-two years ago)

what is this plaque thing that Ebert references?

and i do think a film claiming to be a "documentary" has a responsible to represent reality as accurately as possible.

again, what are your feelings on Nanook of the North?

also, the force of his broader arguments can be sabotaged by lying or half-truths at the level of "details" -- hence the supposed "fact-checking" team moore has ostentatiously employed.

I'm confused - you're saying his downfall is inaccuracy yet it's "ostentatious" for him to employ fact-checkers? That doesn't make sense to me. Either he should employ fact-checkers - in an attempt to make his movie accurate as I think you (and Ebert) are claiming he should do - or not.

also, what difference does it make if it is "something new" or not? are you berating us for not being aware of the history of documentary film? just because the arguments have been made before, in different circumstances, does not mean we are fools for making them again.

I am not berating anybody (although I'm suspecting I'm beginning to be berated). I think most of the objections that are voiced about Fahrenheit 9/11 on this thread have little to do with the movie itself, and instead have A LOT to do with legitimate objections to the documentary genre as a whole. Knowing just a smidgen of history of documentary film would help clarify those objections, and might help the objectors realize that Moore is but one in a long line. I think that's helpful, not hurtful, and I'm kinda surprised that someone with such an avid knowledge of film would advocate that me pointing that history out is somehow wrong. Maybe you think people should not try to be at least somewhat conversant in their subjects?

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 02:42 (twenty-two years ago)


I'm confused - you're saying his downfall is inaccuracy yet it's "ostentatious" for him to employ fact-checkers? That doesn't make sense to me. Either he should employ fact-checkers - in an attempt to make his movie accurate as I think you (and Ebert) are claiming he should do - or not.

i mean his chattering to the newspaper journalist about his multidudinous squads of fact-checkers, is a bit ostentatious and self-serving. but you can cut out the "ostentatious" part, it was just an editorial aside from me.

I think most of the objections that are voiced about Fahrenheit 9/11 on this thread have little to do with the movie itself, and instead have A LOT to do with legitimate objections to the documentary genre as a whole.

well, surely many documentaries have--rightfully--come up for various forms of criticism/defense on the grounds of accuracy. i don't think revisiting such arguments as applied to moore's film is the same thing as misunderstanding the nature of the documentary film.

as far as your historical notes go, i just feel that they don't really answer the arguments presented on these threads, and thus seem a little gratuitous... as though you were attempting to argue largely by means of authority claims. i probably do this sometimes myself.

amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 21 June 2004 02:50 (twenty-two years ago)

well at least I'm not claiming he's dub metal or anything, gimme a break.

Also, his film is about to open here next week, so I totally expected to see him working the Times for more publicity. It's his main target demo!

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 02:52 (twenty-two years ago)

well at least I'm not claiming he's dub metal or anything, gimme a break.

i have no idea what these means (except for the "gimme a break" part).

amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 21 June 2004 02:54 (twenty-two years ago)

it means:

...as though you were attempting to argue largely by means of authority claims. i probably do this sometimes myself.

if you think I go a little overboard doing this, I'd like to introduce you to Chuck Eddy.

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 02:55 (twenty-two years ago)

by authority claims i mean: not answering an argument except to say "i know a lot about this stuff, so trust me." i actually haven't noticed that as one of chuck's big rhetorical gambits. and i'm no fan of his rhetoric.

amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 21 June 2004 02:58 (twenty-two years ago)

...which tends more to syllogism/ad hominem: "because it ROCKS now stick your head in a toaster you dipshit"

amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 21 June 2004 02:59 (twenty-two years ago)

the NFB would qualify what Moore does of "auteur documentary" or "point-of-view documentary". Maybe the Oscar or whatever should make a category like this and leave the documentary category for works that are closer to scientific objectivity or somesuch.

Sébastien Chikara (Sébastien Chikara), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:00 (twenty-two years ago)

sebastien i think there'd be a world of difficulty dividing "documentary" into those two categories.

i tend to think of documentary (this is the short version) as a film made (for the most part) of constituent bits of non-staged reality, however they happen to be arranged and for whatever purpose.

amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:02 (twenty-two years ago)

...or a film presented as such, no doubt.

amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:03 (twenty-two years ago)

"non-staged" wasn't the right term. i'll get back to you on this (see? it's difficult. that doesn't mean we should be cynical and say "there is no objectivity" or "there is no documentary.")

amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:04 (twenty-two years ago)

sorry I didn't mean to "answer" anything, amateur!st, I don't think there is an "answer" for the questions being asked on this thread, and I brought up doc history not to shut down discussion but to enhance it (at least that's the hope). I am a bit taken aback that you think I'd want to come across as a "trust me" type, esp. on film which I know some about but am definitely no expert in (but smart enough to know the "controversy" on this thread isn't really about the actual claims by the film - I'm assuming because most on the thread haven't seen it yet - and is more concerned with, again, the problems inherent in the genre).

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:05 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't even see his stuff as documentary. I just see it as plain old propaganda. And Moore would probably agree.

scott seward (scott seward), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:08 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree with the person from the New York Times article who says that his movies are basically op-ed pieces.

scott seward (scott seward), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Canadian Bacon was more in the William Safire range of batshit stupid, then.

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:13 (twenty-two years ago)

I haven't read all this thread but ctrl+f for "satire" was not found so now that is taken cared of. I think the awful word "infotainment" was also used in the past to qualify his work. I don't think he will apply these words to talk about his 911 film tho.

Sébastien Chikara (Sébastien Chikara), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:18 (twenty-two years ago)

but propaganda rests in large part on documentary claims. one way to bust it, if you so desire, is to challenge those claims. at least, that's the hope. i think one can approach a film claiming to be a documentary with this in mind--and one can separate, with the proper skepticism and research, poor argument from good argument. it doesn't usually sufice to call something "propaganda" as a means of refuting it.

amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:21 (twenty-two years ago)

i.e.

moore: "my film is a documentary"
critic: "no, it's propaganda"

you haven't dealt with the actual claims/arguments of the film itself. you've simply tried to shut down a debate that is not, in fact, going to shut down.

amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:22 (twenty-two years ago)

i.e. "documentary" and "propaganda" are not mutually exclusive really.

amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:23 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't even see his stuff as documentary. I just see it as plain old propaganda. And Moore would probably agree.

I don't think so. I think he thinks of himself more as an old-fashioned muckraker. And at his best, he is.

spittle (spittle), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:33 (twenty-two years ago)

wait, am, so you're gonna lecture scott on the difference between "documentary" and "propaganda" right after getting on my case? WTF?

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:35 (twenty-two years ago)

i don't understand.

my impression is that you were suggesting that people picking at the factual errors and misrepresentations in moore's film were ignorant of the history of the documentary, and that such criticisms aren't relevant. is that a misreading?

amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:40 (twenty-two years ago)

no, I was saying knowing history of the documentary would perhaps put them in a better position to criticize, or even to see Moore's film in the context of its genre.

And I think it's really preposterous that you claim I take a position of "not answering an argument except to say 'i know a lot about this stuff, so trust me'" then lecture someone else on the difference b/w prop and doc. I mean that's just either ridiculously ballsy and I salute you for your cutzpah, disingenous to the nth degree tho it might be, or you are just not very self-aware.

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:43 (twenty-two years ago)

i was advancing an argument, not on the basis of historical knowledge, but on an ontological consideration of documentary form.

btw i think of "nanook" as something halfway between documentary and fiction film.

amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:45 (twenty-two years ago)

I'll just trust you, right?

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:46 (twenty-two years ago)

you get to "advance arguments," I get to be an asshole, I see how it is.

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:46 (twenty-two years ago)

You underestimate the extent to which a Michael Moore, known only from this mistakes and his public persona comes to represent everyone left-of-center.

Yeah, but you have to keep in mind how those "mistakes" and "public persona" have been shaped by vindictive often grossly exaggerated partisan campaigns from the other side. I've read the rap sheet of inaccuracies in "Bowling for Columbine," and they don't cumulatively add up to enough to indict the film's central points. Moore sometimes gets on my nerves too, but I've been a little alarmed at how many liberals I know seem to be at great pains to distance themselves from him, often seemingly on the basis of his "reputation" -- a reputation that is being shaped by people with very good reasons for trying to tear down a potentially powerful liberal voice. Michael Moore has ten times the journalistic and fact-checking scruples of Rush Limbaugh, who just brazenly makes shit up three hours a day on a daily basis, and even though Rush's many fabrications and distortions have been pointed out in various places I don't see conservatives nervously distancing themselves from him like they don't want anyone to get the wrong idea about them.

Anyway, from that Times article (and from Ebert's piece, in which you'll note he's much more positive about "9/11" than "Columbine" -- he's already given "9/11" a huge thumbs-up on his show), it sounds like Moore's done more fact-checking on this movie than any publication in America does on their own work. Any "inaccuracies" found are almost certain to be small ones, and they will be trumpted largely by people pretending to attack his methods but really attacking his message.

I don't love Michael Moore, but I do think he gets a raw deal. And I'm also glad he's out there.

spittle (spittle), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:47 (twenty-two years ago)

(and right, "raw deal" is a little much to say about someone who's rich and famous and wins Oscars and Cannes awards.)

spittle (spittle), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:50 (twenty-two years ago)

hstencil, sorry i offended you. i'll lay off for a while because i don't want to get into a fight.

amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:51 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't want to fight either - I am baffled by my constant lightning rod status here (and by here I don't mean just this thread) when, Momus-baiting aside, I'm just trying to add.

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:55 (twenty-two years ago)

spittle absolutely OTM, especially here: "Moore sometimes gets on my nerves too, but I've been a little alarmed at how many liberals I know seem to be at great pains to distance themselves from him, often seemingly on the basis of his "reputation" -- a reputation that is being shaped by people with very good reasons for trying to tear down a potentially powerful liberal voice."

I've often been baffled at why the left so often lets conservatives set the terms of debate in this.

rasheed wallace (rasheed wallace), Monday, 21 June 2004 10:44 (twenty-two years ago)

... in this way, that should be. More coffee required before posting again.

rasheed wallace (rasheed wallace), Monday, 21 June 2004 10:45 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't even see his stuff as documentary. I just see it as plain old propaganda. And Moore would probably agree.

I don't think so. I think he thinks of himself more as an old-fashioned muckraker. And at his best, he is.

-- spittle (ptu...), June 21st, 2004.


I don't agree. I think he sees himself as a revolutionary. He wants to effect the election. He wants all his movies to have an effect on society and CHANGE society if possible. He wants the country to be a different place and he makes movies to further that goal. That's why I used the word propaganda. I'm not saying it's good or bad. Just that he is beyond muckraking or investigative journalism. When I think of muckraking I think of someone shedding light on a subject and letting the facts speak for themselves. Most of Moore's information comes from print journalism and muckrakers and investigative reporting. Then he takes that information and does what he does with it. I'm looking forward to the movie.

scott seward (scott seward), Monday, 21 June 2004 12:25 (twenty-two years ago)

I suppose it is a public service of sorts to compile a bunch of anti-Bush fun facts for people who can't be bothered to find the information on the web, on the radio, or in newspapers, books, and magazines though.

scott seward (scott seward), Monday, 21 June 2004 12:39 (twenty-two years ago)

When I think of the great muckraking journalism of the early 20th century, I think of people like Lincoln Steffens, Upton Sinclair, C.P. Connolly, Jacob Riis, Nellie Bly -- great reporters all, but none of them shyed away from polemic. They let their facts speak, but they also gave full-throated support to the ideas and reforms they believed in. They were down there raking in the muck for a reason.

Now, I don't think Moore is anywhere near the equal of someone like Steffens or Riis. But I also don't think that the muckrakers were some clarion of objectivity. (As a sidebar, I should say that I think that the drive toward "objectivity" in reportage, which goes hand-in-hand with the professionalization of the industry, is something to be lamented. It has watered down reporting as a political tool and transformed most reporters into a quivering chorus of stenographers eager to preserve their "sources" and their "access.") And I'll say it again -- I also don't think Moore is a reporter per se. His films are agitprop, and agitprop has its place.

rasheed wallace (rasheed wallace), Monday, 21 June 2004 12:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I think that this:

The pitfall for Moore is not subjectivity, but accuracy.

...is being ignored again and again on this thread, which is a shame 'cos it's U&K.

Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Monday, 21 June 2004 14:25 (twenty-two years ago)

you're not reading the same thread I am, then.

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 14:30 (twenty-two years ago)

How's this for a conspiracy theory: Moore secretly wants Bush to win in November, since it will guarantee him four more years of a conducive environment for his films and books. After all, doesn't Moore sell more books and movie tickets when there are lots of angry liberals in this country? And who better to keep them angry than Bush? Maybe this is why he backed Clark in the primaries, because he sensed that Clark was not a natural politician. And maybe "Fahrenheit 9-11" is really supposed to redound to Bush's favor by making his opponents appear extremist.

o. nate (onate), Monday, 21 June 2004 15:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Moore also endorsed Nader in 2000, right?

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 15:26 (twenty-two years ago)

That's true! Yet more evidence...

o. nate (onate), Monday, 21 June 2004 15:27 (twenty-two years ago)

It is true that punk rock in the reagan/thatcher era beats the hell out of punk rock in the clinton/blair era.

scott seward (scott seward), Monday, 21 June 2004 15:31 (twenty-two years ago)

the latter isn't really punk rock, even.

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 15:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Um, he had a tv show when Clinton was president, and a good one at that.

Kerry (dymaxia), Monday, 21 June 2004 15:32 (twenty-two years ago)

was it punk rock?

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 15:33 (twenty-two years ago)

jus' kidding, it was actually a good show, the episodes I saw anyway. Loved the one when he took it to Humana.

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 15:34 (twenty-two years ago)

i never heard a good punk song about newt gingrich.

scott seward (scott seward), Monday, 21 June 2004 15:34 (twenty-two years ago)

tis true, moore just went after big biz when clinton was prez. no logo/adbusters/no-wto replaced reagan-hate.

scott seward (scott seward), Monday, 21 June 2004 15:36 (twenty-two years ago)

If there's a tie in the electoral college in November, we should settle it with a Michael Moore/Newt Gingrich wrestling match. Or hot dog eating contest.

rasheed wallace (rasheed wallace), Monday, 21 June 2004 15:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Is Larouche running this year? I think he's my man. The house of Rothschild has got to go! There is no more time to lose! (heeheehee)

scott seward (scott seward), Monday, 21 June 2004 15:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Lyndon LaRouche is soooo eighties. Or is it seventies, or sixties, or...

Kerry (dymaxia), Monday, 21 June 2004 16:29 (twenty-two years ago)

He's still around though, isn't he? Someone gave me one of his newspapers once and my mind was quite properly blown by the loonyness of it all.

scott seward (scott seward), Monday, 21 June 2004 17:16 (twenty-two years ago)

he's still in prison, i believe.

amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 21 June 2004 17:18 (twenty-two years ago)

He may not be around but his cultists are. There's a LaRouche table at the main walk around campus most weeks of the year. I remember one time they desperately tried to get people to talk to them by doing handstands.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 21 June 2004 17:48 (twenty-two years ago)

http://images.usatoday.com/life/_photos/2004/2004-06/21-moore-inside.jpg

christhamrin (christhamrin), Monday, 21 June 2004 18:03 (twenty-two years ago)

totally photoshopped out the acne

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 18:04 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.gravett.org/pc/archives/moore-fatass-new.jpg

christhamrin (christhamrin), Monday, 21 June 2004 18:05 (twenty-two years ago)

http://a.abcnews.com/media/us/images/abc_gingrich_yearbook.jpg

rasheed wallace (rasheed wallace), Monday, 21 June 2004 18:11 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.lisarein.com/michaelmoore/michaelmoorecompare.html


found this when googling... Anyone see this ever?

Jon Williams!!!!! (ROFFLE!@!@!@) (ex machina), Monday, 21 June 2004 18:18 (twenty-two years ago)

I love all the comments here from folks who haven't seen the movie yet.

Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Monday, 21 June 2004 18:25 (twenty-two years ago)

well given that it's not out yet...

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 18:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes, please, a fucking moratorium on posts talking about the movie until Friday, when it's released.

Unless it's something like a hilarious photocollage that is meant to point out that Michael Moore is a heavyset man, and therefore his ideas are worthless. Keep those coming.

I am mad at myself right now for even deigning to post a response in a thread that links to some ridiculous bullshit like that "Bowling for Truth" thing. Jesus christ.

Neb Reyob (Ben Boyer), Monday, 21 June 2004 18:33 (twenty-two years ago)

embarrassing attempts at humor:
http://www.fritzliess.com/movabletype/archives/images/moore_dude_book.jpg
http://hogwild.net/images/Balloons/2003.06.08/michael.moore-madeleine.albright.jpg

christhamrin (christhamrin), Monday, 21 June 2004 18:47 (twenty-two years ago)

how do you feel about michael moore christhamrin?

de, Monday, 21 June 2004 19:01 (twenty-two years ago)

I watched TV Nation religiously and I liked his first movie, but I don't feel strongly about him positively or negatively, really.

christhamrin (christhamrin), Monday, 21 June 2004 19:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Wow! Christopher Hitchens demolishes Moore's film.

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 20:43 (twenty-two years ago)

random aside: why do talk shows who otherwise forbid smoking, allow mr. hitchens to chain smoke as a guest? are they afraid he will call the host a fascist if they ask him to smoke out on the street until the show starts?

amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 21 June 2004 21:04 (twenty-two years ago)

it's the tobacco lobby.

(I've never seen him smoke on TV).

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 21:06 (twenty-two years ago)

i've seen him on at least two talk shows, puffing away on set like it was nothing unusual.

i stopped reading hitchens when he stopped trying to make convincing arguments.

amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 21 June 2004 21:09 (twenty-two years ago)

you don't think this is a convincing argument?

So I know, thanks, before you tell me, that a documentary must have a "POV" or point of view and that it must also impose a narrative line. But if you leave out absolutely everything that might give your "narrative" a problem and throw in any old rubbish that might support it, and you don't even care that one bit of that rubbish flatly contradicts the next bit, and you give no chance to those who might differ, then you have betrayed your craft.

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 21:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Can't stand MM - straddles the line between entertainment and news.

supertzarnaut (calstars), Monday, 21 June 2004 22:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Christopher Hitchens clearly suffers from some kind of hyper-paranoid mental illness. That Slate piece reads like a blog entry from a lonely, scared shut-in.
I really hope Moore takes him up on the offer to debate face-to-face again.

Neb Reyob (Ben Boyer), Monday, 21 June 2004 22:29 (twenty-two years ago)

hey anyone, what's the thesis of Bowling for Columbine? Cause as far as I can tell it wasn't saying that we needed more gun control or that terrible poverty is a cause of crime, it was arguing that:

a) Charlton Heston is a senile jackass (true)
b) Canadian media is always very polite, and would never exploit fear for ratings (wrong!)

Really, I wouldn't care about the film's many distortions of the truth if it made any fucking sense.

Symplistic (shmuel), Monday, 21 June 2004 23:28 (twenty-two years ago)

On This Week, Moore described Fahrenheit 9/11 as "an op-ed piece. It's my opinion about the last four years of the Bush administration. And that's what I call it. I'm not trying to pretend that this is some sort of, you know, fair and balanced work of journalism. …" Later in the interview, he called the movie "a comedy, too."

From Slate.

Hunter (Hunter), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 00:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Hitchens: "A film that bases itself on a big lie and a big misrepresentation can only sustain itself by a dizzying succession of smaller falsehoods, beefed up by wilder and (if possible) yet more-contradictory claims."

Funny how easily "An administration" or "A call to arms" or even "A former journalist" can be subbed in for "film," no?

captain gay, Tuesday, 22 June 2004 00:42 (twenty-two years ago)

One thing I will give Moore is that unlike many alleged lefties, he seemed ready and willing to call out the Clinton Administration on their fuck-ups.

miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 00:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Asking Michael Moore to present a coherent foreign policy strategy is kind of like asking George W. Bush to explain the difference between noumena and phenomena in Kantian metaphysics - ie., it ain't gonna happen. Moore's modus operandi tends to be of the throw-a-bunch-of-shit-against-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks variety, but that doesn't mean he can't be good for a laugh or an occasional flash of agit-prop genius.

o. nate (onate), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 03:14 (twenty-two years ago)

alternately, asking moore for a coherent foreign policy is like asking George Bush for a coherent foreign policy.

Symplistic (shmuel), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 03:27 (twenty-two years ago)

I didn't know it was a requirement of documentary filmmakers to present a coherent foreign policy along with their film work (unless, of course, that's the goal of a particular film or set of films). A lot of the kvetching seems to be of the "if you haven't made a record you can't criticize musicians" variety, which has been thoroughly debunked on ILM. Don't know why it's so prevalent here.

hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 03:51 (twenty-two years ago)


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