More proof that time (and astute research) will eventually reveal Moore for what he is.
― roger adultery (roger adultery), Sunday, 20 June 2004 18:18 (twenty-two years ago)
― Symplistic (shmuel), Sunday, 20 June 2004 18:27 (twenty-two years ago)
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 20 June 2004 18:27 (twenty-two years ago)
― rasheed wallace (rasheed wallace), Sunday, 20 June 2004 18:41 (twenty-two years ago)
― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Sunday, 20 June 2004 18:44 (twenty-two years ago)
― amateur!st (amateurist), Sunday, 20 June 2004 18:50 (twenty-two years ago)
― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Sunday, 20 June 2004 18:51 (twenty-two years ago)
― David R. (popshots75`), Sunday, 20 June 2004 18:54 (twenty-two years ago)
― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 20 June 2004 18:55 (twenty-two years ago)
― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 20 June 2004 18:57 (twenty-two years ago)
― gabbneb (gabbneb), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:00 (twenty-two years ago)
― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:03 (twenty-two years ago)
― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:07 (twenty-two years ago)
― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:10 (twenty-two years ago)
― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:11 (twenty-two years ago)
― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:12 (twenty-two years ago)
― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:13 (twenty-two years ago)
― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:18 (twenty-two years ago)
― Symplistic (shmuel), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:19 (twenty-two years ago)
It would be better to say that I have a problem with his tactics and style, more than anything. Bluster, shouting down the other guy instead of providing a reasonable argument, etc.
― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:20 (twenty-two years ago)
― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:21 (twenty-two years ago)
― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:29 (twenty-two years ago)
― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:34 (twenty-two years ago)
What if he decides to be a political activist that's capable of making jokes? Are you afraid time will stop?
― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:37 (twenty-two years ago)
― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:38 (twenty-two years ago)
There's no justifiable reason to do that in something that purports to be a documentary.
Moore makes the worst kind of propaganda - his political goals outweigh everything else, and serve to undermine any rational basis for his beliefs. It's fine for getting people to side with you on an emotional level - as evidenced by the general left-wing love of BfC - but it's really shit for making an effectual argument or changing opinions and views.
― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:39 (twenty-two years ago)
― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:42 (twenty-two years ago)
― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:45 (twenty-two years ago)
But I still think the KKK-NRA thing was supposed to be historical irony rather than any attempt to directly equate the two organisations.
― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:45 (twenty-two years ago)
(In part because people who don't have a strong grounding for their beliefs are the most likely to flip-flop and switch sides.)
― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:46 (twenty-two years ago)
I don't understand why people think he can't put jokes in! Is it because some people are dumb enough to take it as a fact? Anyone with a handle on anything can seperate the entertaining comic relief bits from the serious, informative bits.
― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:48 (twenty-two years ago)
― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:48 (twenty-two years ago)
― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:51 (twenty-two years ago)
That's brilliant. What I've got a problem with are jokes that don't resemble the facts. If it was a right-wing documentary implying through humor that Bill Clinton was friends with bin Laden or something, lefties would (rightfully) be up in arms.
Kevin, it's great that we have some political aspects of pop culture. That doesn't excuse playing fast and loose with evidence and avoiding making a reasonable argument at all. (de la Rocha and Morello's politics tend to make more sense than Moore's from the interviews I've read) You can have a Michael Moore or BfC inspiring kids without any of Moore's flaws and problems.
― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:53 (twenty-two years ago)
Moore (and Limbaugh)(and Fox News) insult the intelligence of their audience by assuming that they can't handle both sides of an argument, or that they can't let facts get in the way of a good rant. I find that, as I said, unhealthy.
― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:55 (twenty-two years ago)
― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:56 (twenty-two years ago)
― roger adultery (roger adultery), Sunday, 20 June 2004 19:59 (twenty-two years ago)
― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Sunday, 20 June 2004 20:03 (twenty-two years ago)
I'd take statements like this a little more seriously were it not for those currently dominant in politics.
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 20 June 2004 20:21 (twenty-two years ago)
― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 20 June 2004 20:32 (twenty-two years ago)
You mean the one that never actually happened? this thread has some people agreeing with him, some people saying they disagree but respect him, and very few actually dissing him. There's like only four truly agressive messages on the entire thread!
― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Sunday, 20 June 2004 21:13 (twenty-two years ago)
e.g they complain that he calls the Shah a dictator rather than a king - which is surely a matter of opinion
Not if you were a typical Iranian citizen during the Shah's regeime. A dictator is still a dictator no matter if he has the blessing of the US or not.
I find that entry-level politics concept to be insulting to the intelligence of the average person. They don't need to be treated like morons. Give them an argument, without it being Al Gore-boring, and they'll respond.
I disagree here, the "average person" is spectacularly ignorant and disengaged with respect to political and civic knowledge. Historically, the average person has responded by not voting.
― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Sunday, 20 June 2004 22:10 (twenty-two years ago)
― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Sunday, 20 June 2004 22:12 (twenty-two years ago)
― Kerry (dymaxia), Sunday, 20 June 2004 22:25 (twenty-two years ago)
Ebert writes: The pitfall for Moore is not subjectivity, but accuracy. We expect him to hold an opinion and argue it, but we also require his facts to be correct. I was an admirer of his previous doc, the Oscar-winning "Bowling for Columbine," until I discovered that some of his "facts" were wrong, false or fudged.
In some cases, he was guilty of making a good story better, but in other cases (such as his ambush of Charlton Heston) he was unfair, and in still others (such as the wording on the plaque under the bomber at the Air Force Academy) he was just plain wrong, as anyone can see by going to look at the plaque.
Because I agree with Moore's politics, his inaccuracies pained me, and I wrote about them in my Answer Man column. Moore wrote me that he didn't expect such attacks "from you, of all people." But I cannot ignore flaws simply because I agree with the filmmaker. In hurting his cause, he wounds mine.
For some reason, Moore kinda reminds me of Orson Welles's character in Touch of Evil - both have good intentions, but they use the wrong methods. And there's the bloatedness factor. And in both cases, they are up against Charlton Heston (who plays a Mexican narc in Touch of Evil). Hmm.
― Ernest P. (ernestp), Sunday, 20 June 2004 22:27 (twenty-two years ago)
From what I hear about “9/11,” however, he does leave himself out of the film more than ever before, which solves some problems, but no doubt the guy still wanders off point for much of the run-time. This is actually the first of his films I feel compelled to see in the theatres, not for all the nonsense stuff either already debunked (Bin Laden charter flights out of the U.S. on 9/11) or silly (lets mock the Congress!) but as a (perhaps) damning indictment of the misleading march to War and messy clean-up. We shall see.
Then again, the fact that Moore is all but threatening his critics with libel this time out makes me want to see him fail, fail, fail.
― Josh in Chicago (Josh in Chicago), Sunday, 20 June 2004 22:28 (twenty-two years ago)
boo hoo. not nearly as bad as the shellacking the entire world is taking from our vicious, wrong-headed foreign policy.
― lauren (laurenp), Sunday, 20 June 2004 22:29 (twenty-two years ago)
And I'm assuming you're wondering why the right AREN'T making their own movies in support of Bush, Elvis T. And I think they are, just in an understandably less overt way.
http://www.crankycritic.com/archive02/posters/weweresoldiers.jpg
― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 20 June 2004 22:29 (twenty-two years ago)
But there's a difference in that, and propaganda designed specifically to prey on emotion and to do no enlightening and no reasoning. When that's done in the name of pro-American propaganda, we complain (Jessica Lynch, perhaps?).
― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Sunday, 20 June 2004 22:32 (twenty-two years ago)
― Kerry (dymaxia), Sunday, 20 June 2004 22:38 (twenty-two years ago)
http://www.michaelmoore.com/images_la/f911-home-interim_03.jpg
and more movies like:
http://www.impawards.com/1999/posters/three_kings.jpg
― Josh in Chicago (Josh in Chicago), Sunday, 20 June 2004 22:40 (twenty-two years ago)
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 20 June 2004 22:47 (twenty-two years ago)
MICHAEL MOORE is not coy about his hopes for "Fahrenheit 9/11," his blistering documentary attack on President Bush and the war in Iraq. He wants it to be remembered as the first big-audience, election-year film that helped unseat a president.
"And it's not just a hope," the Oscar-winning filmmaker said in a phone interview last week, describing focus groups in Michigan in April at which, after seeing the movie, previously undecided voters expressed eagerness to defeat Mr. Bush. "We found that if you entered the theater on the fence, you fell off it somewhere during those two hours," he said. "It ignites a fire in people who had given up."
The movie's indictment of the president is nothing if not sprawling. Mr. Moore suggests that Mr. Bush and his administration jeopardized national security in an effort to placate Bush family cronies in Saudi Arabia, that the White House helped members of Mr. bin Laden's family to flee the United States after Sept. 11 and that the administration manipulated terrorism alert levels in order to scare Americans into supporting the invasion of Iraq.
Mr. Moore's previous films generated a cottage industry of conservative commentators eager to prove sloppiness and exaggeration in his films; a handful of mainstream critics have also found flaws. But if "Fahrenheit 9/11" attracts the audience Mr. Moore and his distributors are predicting, Mr. Moore may face an onslaught of fact-checking unlike anything he - or any other documentary filmmaker - has ever experienced. After all, White House officials and the Bush family began impugning the film even before any of them had seen it.
"Outrageously false," said Dan Bartlett, the White House communications director, last month when told about the film's assertion of a sinister connection between Mr. Bush and the family of Osama bin Laden. The former president George H. W. Bush was quoted in The New York Daily News calling Mr. Moore a "slime ball" and describing the documentary as "a vicious personal attack on our son."
So how will Mr. Moore's movie stand up under close examination? Is the film's depiction of Mr. Bush as a lazy and duplicitous leader, blinded by his family's financial ties to Arab moneymen and the Saudi Arabian royal family, true to fact?
Mr. Moore and his distributors have refused to circulate copies of the film and its script before the film's release this Friday; his production team said that as of last Wednesday, there was no final script because the film was still undergoing minor editing - for clarity, they said, not accuracy.
After a year spent covering the federal commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks, I was recently allowed to attend a Hollywood screening. Based on that single viewing, and after separating out what is clearly presented as Mr. Moore's opinion from what is stated as fact, it seems safe to say that central assertions of fact in "Fahrenheit 9/11" are supported by the public record (indeed, many of them will be familiar to those who have closely followed Mr. Bush's political career).
Mr. Moore is on firm ground in arguing that the Bushes, like many prominent Texas families with oil interests, have profited handsomely from their relationships with prominent Saudis, including members of the royal family and of the large and fabulously wealthy bin Laden clan, which has insisted it long ago disowned Osama. Mr. Moore spends several minutes in the film documenting ties between the president and James R. Bath, a financial advisor to a prominent member of the bin Laden family who was an original investor in Mr. Bush's Arbusto energy company and who served with the future president in the Air National Guard in the early 1970's. The Bath friendship, which indirectly links Mr. Bush to the family of the world's most notorious terrorist, has received less attention from national news organization than it has from reporters in Texas, but it has been well documented.
Mr. Moore charges that President Bush and his aides paid too little attention to warnings in the summer of 2001 that Al Qaeda was about to attack, including a detailed Aug. 6, 2001, C.I.A. briefing that warned of terrorism within the country's borders. In its final report next month, the Sept. 11 commission can be expected to offer support to this assertion. Mr. Moore says that instead of focusing on Al Qaeda, the president spent 42 percent of his first eight months in office on vacation; the figure came not from a conspiracy-hungry Web site but from a calculation by The Washington Post.
The most valid criticisms of the film are likely to involve the artful way that Mr. Moore connects the facts, and whether he has left out others that might undermine his scalding attack. A great many statistics fly by in the movie - such as assertions that 6 percent to 7 percent of the United States is owned by Saudi Arabians, and that Saudi companies have paid more than $1.4 billion to Bush family interests. But Mr. Moore doesn't explain how he arrived at them, or what these vague interests comprise. Mr. Moore and his team say they have news reports and other evidence to back up the numbers and that it will be posted on his Web site (www.michaelmoore.com) after the film's release.
Mr. Moore may also be criticized for the way he portrays the evacuation of the extended bin Laden family from the United States after Sept. 11. As the Sept. 11 commission has found, the Saudi government was able to pull strings at senior levels of the Bush administration to help the bin Ladens leave the United States. But while the film clearly suggests that the flights occurred at a time when all air traffic was grounded immediately after the attacks ("Even Ricky Martin couldn't fly," Mr. Moore says over video of the singer wandering in an airport lobby), the Sept. 11 commission said in a report this April that there was "no credible evidence that any chartered flights of Saudi Arabian nationals departed the United States before the reopening of national airspace" and that the F.B.I. had concluded that no one aboard the flights was involved in Sept. 11.
In conversation, Mr. Moore defended the scene, saying his goal was to show how the White House was eager to bend and break the rules for Saudi friends - in this case, the extended family of the terrorist who had just brought down the twin towers and attacked the Pentagon. And as reporters have found, the White House still refuses to document fully how the flights were arranged.
"I don't want to get lost in the forest because of a single tree," Mr. Moore said. "The main point I want people to go away with is that these people got special treatment because they were bin Ladens or Saudi royals, and you and I would never have been given that treatment."
Mr. Moore may also have to defend his portrayal of Mr. Bush's presidency as sinking prior to Sept. 11, citing an inability to win support for his legislation. But he fails to mention that in May, Congress agreed to Mr. Bush's $1.35 trillion tax cut, the centerpiece of his legislative agenda. Mr. Moore said that his review of news coverage before Sept. 11 shows that, with or without the tax cut, the Bush presidency was floundering before the terrorist attacks. Mr. Moore said, "I've read what other people wrote and said at the time, and he was definitely on the ropes."
MR. MOORE usually revels in his role as the target of conservative attacks, and his delight in playing the mischievous, little-guy bomb-thrower has brought him fame, wealth and the devotion of fans more interested in rhetorical force than precision. But with "Fahrenheit" he has taken on his biggest and best-defended target yet, and his production staff says that on his orders they have taken no chances in checking and double-checking the film, knowing Bush supporters would pounce on factual mistakes.
Mr. Moore is readying for a conservative counterattack, saying he has created a political-style "war room" to offer an instant response to any assault on the film's credibility. He has retained Chris Lehane, a Democratic Party strategist known as a master of the black art of "oppo," or opposition research, used to discredit detractors. He also hired outside fact-checkers, led by a former general counsel of The New Yorker and a veteran member of that magazine's legendary fact-checking team, to vet the film. And he is threatening to go one step further, saying he has consulted with lawyers who can bring defamation suits against anyone who maligns the film or damages his reputation.
"We want the word out," says Mr. Moore, who says he should have responded more quickly to allegations of inaccuracy in his Oscar-winning 2002 anti-gun documentary, "Bowling for Columbine." "Any attempts to libel me will be met by force," he said, not an ounce of humor in his familiar voice. "The most important thing we have is truth on our side. If they persist in telling lies, knowingly telling a lie with malice, then I'll take them to court."
As proof of its scrupulousness, the Moore team cites adjustments it made to the film's portrayal of Attorney General John Ashcroft. The film is brutal to Mr. Ashcroft, depicting him as a glassy-eyed architect of efforts to shred the Constitution, who became Attorney General only after he proved himself so unpopular in his home state of Missouri that he lost a Senate race to a former Democratic governor who died in a plane crash a month before election day. "Voters preferred the dead guy," Mr. Moore deadpans in the film, a line that drew belly laughs at recent preview screenings. (In reality, voters knew they were in effect casting ballots for the governor's widow).
An earlier version of the film, however, included a reference to a widely circulated charge, broadcast by CBS News in July 2001, that Mr. Ashcroft had received warning of threats and stopped flying on commercial airlines. Tia Lessin, supervising producer of "Fahrenheit 9/11," said the reference to the CBS report was cut after Mr. Moore's fact-checking team found evidence that Mr. Ashcroft had flown commercially at least twice that summer.
"We have gone through every single word of this film - literally every word - and verified its accuracy," said Joanne Doroshow, a public interest lawyer and filmmaker who shared in a 1993 Oscar for documentaries and who joined the fact-checking effort last month. Ms. Doroshow is responsible for preparing what she calls a "fact-checking bible," with material ranging from newspaper and magazine articles to copies of the Federal Register, that will allow the film's lawyers and publicists to provide backup for its allegations.
That said, Mr. Moore's fact-checkers do not view the film as straight reportage. "This is an Op-Ed piece, it's not a news report," said Dev Chatillon, the former general counsel for The New Yorker. "This is not The New York Times, it's not a network news report. The facts have to be right, yes, but this is an individual's view of current events. And I'm a very firm believer that it is within everybody's right to examine the actions of their government."
Besides, it may turn out that the most talked-about moments in the film are the least impeachable. Mr. Moore makes extensive use of obscure footage from White House and network-news video archives, including long scenes that capture President Bush at his least articulate. For the White House, the most devastating segment of "Fahrenheit 9/11" may be the video of a befuddled-looking President Bush staying put for nearly seven minutes at a Florida elementary school on the morning of Sept. 11, continuing to read a copy of "My Pet Goat" to schoolchildren even after an aide has told him that a second plane has struck the twin towers. Mr. Bush's slow, hesitant reaction to the disastrous news has never been a secret. But seeing the actual footage, with the minutes ticking by, may prove more damaging to the White House than all the statistics in the world.¬Ý¬Ý
― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 20 June 2004 22:48 (twenty-two years ago)
So it wasn't one-sided at all? Moore provided plenty of ammunition from the right as to possible answers? No, he didn't. And that's OK.
What isn't OK is pushing his political POV by ignoring/blurring facts, ambushing, messing with chronology and the like - rather than simply laying out what's wrong with the NRA. (and this goes beyond BfC)
The "I'm a comedian!"/"I'm a documentarian!" obfuscation is a page taken straight from the Limbaugh playbook, isn't it?
A good counter-example might be Al Franken. He's funnier than Moore (though still not hilarious), but even while doing straight comedy, he avoids the pitfalls of Moore's pranksterism.
― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Sunday, 20 June 2004 22:57 (twenty-two years ago)
If Moore's film does some consciousness raising, if it inspires a few heretofore unaware souls to seek to boot Bush out of office, that's just fine with me. I'm way past the point of factual scruples with this administration. Moore's use of a few funky juxtapositions or loosey-goosey edits absolutely pales in comparison to the horrendous prevarication and criminal behavior of the current occupants of the White House. If there's a contemporary equivalent of fiddling while Rome burns, quibbling about a major motion picture would have to be it.
― rasheed wallace (rasheed wallace), Sunday, 20 June 2004 23:01 (twenty-two years ago)
Like CeCe said, I liked not having a Rush Limbaugh on my side. You underestimate the extent to which a Michael Moore, known only from this mistakes and his public persona comes to represent everyone left-of-center.
Maybe it's horribly idealistic, but you win by being better than the other guy. You don't win by being just as bad.
― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Sunday, 20 June 2004 23:16 (twenty-two years ago)
I'll say this, and then I'll talk about Moore in greater detail once I've actually seen his movie: I really don't think there's any equivalence between Moore's filmmaking techniques and Bush lying about WMD or his connections to the Saudis or any other number of things. And I think the left totally sucks at pointing that out, and enables the comparison. Everyone that goes on some right wing flunkie's cable or radio show this week to talk about this movie ought to hasten to point out that whatever Moore's weaknesses, they have yet to cost a single person their life. We can't let right-wing attack dogs make it sound like Moore is the criminal. Because though he may be a lot of things, that is one thing he most definitely is not.
― rasheed wallace (rasheed wallace), Sunday, 20 June 2004 23:27 (twenty-two years ago)
Ray Bradbury piles in
― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 21 June 2004 00:14 (twenty-two years ago)
― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Monday, 21 June 2004 00:17 (twenty-two years ago)
― o. nate (onate), Monday, 21 June 2004 00:19 (twenty-two years ago)
― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 21 June 2004 00:26 (twenty-two years ago)
― roger adultery (roger adultery), Monday, 21 June 2004 00:36 (twenty-two years ago)
All this handwringing about Moore's subjectivity is, I say again, completely stupid when you consider the history of documentary film. Documentaries are not objective nor were they ever meant to be. And I still don't think Moore's stuff is as lefty as some other classic docs - Harlan County USA (1976 Best Documentary Oscar winner) comes to mine. Too bad Frank Sinatra's not around to give a disclaimer at the awards ceremony.
― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 01:46 (twenty-two years ago)
Documentary award winner Producer Bert Schneider read a controversial Vietnamese telegram as part of his acceptance speech. Later in the ceremony, co-host Frank Sinatra issued a disclaimer on behalf of the Academy disavowing any official endorsement of the telegram's content.
This Moore guy ain't doing anything new, people.
― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 01:58 (twenty-two years ago)
-- hstencil (hstenci...) (webmail), June 20th, 2004 7:46 PM. (hstencil) (later) (link)
hstencil i still think you're missing the point, which ebert clearly articulates: the problem is not *subjectivity* but *accuracy.* and i do think a film claiming to be a "documentary" has a responsible to represent reality as accurately as possible. also, the force of his broader arguments can be sabotaged by lying or half-truths at the level of "details" -- hence the supposed "fact-checking" team moore has ostentatiously employed.
also, what difference does it make if it is "something new" or not? are you berating us for not being aware of the history of documentary film? just because the arguments have been made before, in different circumstances, does not mean we are fools for making them again.
― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 21 June 2004 02:36 (twenty-two years ago)
― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 21 June 2004 02:37 (twenty-two years ago)
― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Monday, 21 June 2004 02:40 (twenty-two years ago)
― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 21 June 2004 02:42 (twenty-two years ago)
and i do think a film claiming to be a "documentary" has a responsible to represent reality as accurately as possible.
again, what are your feelings on Nanook of the North?
also, the force of his broader arguments can be sabotaged by lying or half-truths at the level of "details" -- hence the supposed "fact-checking" team moore has ostentatiously employed.
I'm confused - you're saying his downfall is inaccuracy yet it's "ostentatious" for him to employ fact-checkers? That doesn't make sense to me. Either he should employ fact-checkers - in an attempt to make his movie accurate as I think you (and Ebert) are claiming he should do - or not.
I am not berating anybody (although I'm suspecting I'm beginning to be berated). I think most of the objections that are voiced about Fahrenheit 9/11 on this thread have little to do with the movie itself, and instead have A LOT to do with legitimate objections to the documentary genre as a whole. Knowing just a smidgen of history of documentary film would help clarify those objections, and might help the objectors realize that Moore is but one in a long line. I think that's helpful, not hurtful, and I'm kinda surprised that someone with such an avid knowledge of film would advocate that me pointing that history out is somehow wrong. Maybe you think people should not try to be at least somewhat conversant in their subjects?
― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 02:42 (twenty-two years ago)
i mean his chattering to the newspaper journalist about his multidudinous squads of fact-checkers, is a bit ostentatious and self-serving. but you can cut out the "ostentatious" part, it was just an editorial aside from me.
I think most of the objections that are voiced about Fahrenheit 9/11 on this thread have little to do with the movie itself, and instead have A LOT to do with legitimate objections to the documentary genre as a whole.
well, surely many documentaries have--rightfully--come up for various forms of criticism/defense on the grounds of accuracy. i don't think revisiting such arguments as applied to moore's film is the same thing as misunderstanding the nature of the documentary film.
as far as your historical notes go, i just feel that they don't really answer the arguments presented on these threads, and thus seem a little gratuitous... as though you were attempting to argue largely by means of authority claims. i probably do this sometimes myself.
― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 21 June 2004 02:50 (twenty-two years ago)
Also, his film is about to open here next week, so I totally expected to see him working the Times for more publicity. It's his main target demo!
― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 02:52 (twenty-two years ago)
i have no idea what these means (except for the "gimme a break" part).
― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 21 June 2004 02:54 (twenty-two years ago)
...as though you were attempting to argue largely by means of authority claims. i probably do this sometimes myself.
if you think I go a little overboard doing this, I'd like to introduce you to Chuck Eddy.
― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 02:55 (twenty-two years ago)
― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 21 June 2004 02:58 (twenty-two years ago)
― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 21 June 2004 02:59 (twenty-two years ago)
― Sébastien Chikara (Sébastien Chikara), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:00 (twenty-two years ago)
i tend to think of documentary (this is the short version) as a film made (for the most part) of constituent bits of non-staged reality, however they happen to be arranged and for whatever purpose.
― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:02 (twenty-two years ago)
― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:03 (twenty-two years ago)
― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:04 (twenty-two years ago)
― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:05 (twenty-two years ago)
― scott seward (scott seward), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:08 (twenty-two years ago)
― scott seward (scott seward), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:11 (twenty-two years ago)
― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:13 (twenty-two years ago)
― Sébastien Chikara (Sébastien Chikara), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:18 (twenty-two years ago)
― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:21 (twenty-two years ago)
moore: "my film is a documentary"critic: "no, it's propaganda"
you haven't dealt with the actual claims/arguments of the film itself. you've simply tried to shut down a debate that is not, in fact, going to shut down.
― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:22 (twenty-two years ago)
― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:23 (twenty-two years ago)
I don't think so. I think he thinks of himself more as an old-fashioned muckraker. And at his best, he is.
― spittle (spittle), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:33 (twenty-two years ago)
― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:35 (twenty-two years ago)
my impression is that you were suggesting that people picking at the factual errors and misrepresentations in moore's film were ignorant of the history of the documentary, and that such criticisms aren't relevant. is that a misreading?
― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:40 (twenty-two years ago)
And I think it's really preposterous that you claim I take a position of "not answering an argument except to say 'i know a lot about this stuff, so trust me'" then lecture someone else on the difference b/w prop and doc. I mean that's just either ridiculously ballsy and I salute you for your cutzpah, disingenous to the nth degree tho it might be, or you are just not very self-aware.
― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:43 (twenty-two years ago)
btw i think of "nanook" as something halfway between documentary and fiction film.
― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:45 (twenty-two years ago)
― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:46 (twenty-two years ago)
Yeah, but you have to keep in mind how those "mistakes" and "public persona" have been shaped by vindictive often grossly exaggerated partisan campaigns from the other side. I've read the rap sheet of inaccuracies in "Bowling for Columbine," and they don't cumulatively add up to enough to indict the film's central points. Moore sometimes gets on my nerves too, but I've been a little alarmed at how many liberals I know seem to be at great pains to distance themselves from him, often seemingly on the basis of his "reputation" -- a reputation that is being shaped by people with very good reasons for trying to tear down a potentially powerful liberal voice. Michael Moore has ten times the journalistic and fact-checking scruples of Rush Limbaugh, who just brazenly makes shit up three hours a day on a daily basis, and even though Rush's many fabrications and distortions have been pointed out in various places I don't see conservatives nervously distancing themselves from him like they don't want anyone to get the wrong idea about them.
Anyway, from that Times article (and from Ebert's piece, in which you'll note he's much more positive about "9/11" than "Columbine" -- he's already given "9/11" a huge thumbs-up on his show), it sounds like Moore's done more fact-checking on this movie than any publication in America does on their own work. Any "inaccuracies" found are almost certain to be small ones, and they will be trumpted largely by people pretending to attack his methods but really attacking his message.
I don't love Michael Moore, but I do think he gets a raw deal. And I'm also glad he's out there.
― spittle (spittle), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:47 (twenty-two years ago)
― spittle (spittle), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:50 (twenty-two years ago)
― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:51 (twenty-two years ago)
― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 03:55 (twenty-two years ago)
I've often been baffled at why the left so often lets conservatives set the terms of debate in this.
― rasheed wallace (rasheed wallace), Monday, 21 June 2004 10:44 (twenty-two years ago)
― rasheed wallace (rasheed wallace), Monday, 21 June 2004 10:45 (twenty-two years ago)
I don't even see his stuff as documentary. I just see it as plain old propaganda. And Moore would probably agree.
-- spittle (ptu...), June 21st, 2004.
I don't agree. I think he sees himself as a revolutionary. He wants to effect the election. He wants all his movies to have an effect on society and CHANGE society if possible. He wants the country to be a different place and he makes movies to further that goal. That's why I used the word propaganda. I'm not saying it's good or bad. Just that he is beyond muckraking or investigative journalism. When I think of muckraking I think of someone shedding light on a subject and letting the facts speak for themselves. Most of Moore's information comes from print journalism and muckrakers and investigative reporting. Then he takes that information and does what he does with it. I'm looking forward to the movie.
― scott seward (scott seward), Monday, 21 June 2004 12:25 (twenty-two years ago)
― scott seward (scott seward), Monday, 21 June 2004 12:39 (twenty-two years ago)
Now, I don't think Moore is anywhere near the equal of someone like Steffens or Riis. But I also don't think that the muckrakers were some clarion of objectivity. (As a sidebar, I should say that I think that the drive toward "objectivity" in reportage, which goes hand-in-hand with the professionalization of the industry, is something to be lamented. It has watered down reporting as a political tool and transformed most reporters into a quivering chorus of stenographers eager to preserve their "sources" and their "access.") And I'll say it again -- I also don't think Moore is a reporter per se. His films are agitprop, and agitprop has its place.
― rasheed wallace (rasheed wallace), Monday, 21 June 2004 12:43 (twenty-two years ago)
The pitfall for Moore is not subjectivity, but accuracy.
...is being ignored again and again on this thread, which is a shame 'cos it's U&K.
― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Monday, 21 June 2004 14:25 (twenty-two years ago)
― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 14:30 (twenty-two years ago)
― o. nate (onate), Monday, 21 June 2004 15:25 (twenty-two years ago)
― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 15:26 (twenty-two years ago)
― o. nate (onate), Monday, 21 June 2004 15:27 (twenty-two years ago)
― scott seward (scott seward), Monday, 21 June 2004 15:31 (twenty-two years ago)
― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 15:32 (twenty-two years ago)
― Kerry (dymaxia), Monday, 21 June 2004 15:32 (twenty-two years ago)
― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 15:33 (twenty-two years ago)
― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 15:34 (twenty-two years ago)
― scott seward (scott seward), Monday, 21 June 2004 15:34 (twenty-two years ago)
― scott seward (scott seward), Monday, 21 June 2004 15:36 (twenty-two years ago)
― rasheed wallace (rasheed wallace), Monday, 21 June 2004 15:44 (twenty-two years ago)
― scott seward (scott seward), Monday, 21 June 2004 15:55 (twenty-two years ago)
― Kerry (dymaxia), Monday, 21 June 2004 16:29 (twenty-two years ago)
― scott seward (scott seward), Monday, 21 June 2004 17:16 (twenty-two years ago)
― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 21 June 2004 17:18 (twenty-two years ago)
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 21 June 2004 17:48 (twenty-two years ago)
― christhamrin (christhamrin), Monday, 21 June 2004 18:03 (twenty-two years ago)
― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 18:04 (twenty-two years ago)
― christhamrin (christhamrin), Monday, 21 June 2004 18:05 (twenty-two years ago)
― rasheed wallace (rasheed wallace), Monday, 21 June 2004 18:11 (twenty-two years ago)
found this when googling... Anyone see this ever?
― Jon Williams!!!!! (ROFFLE!@!@!@) (ex machina), Monday, 21 June 2004 18:18 (twenty-two years ago)
― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Monday, 21 June 2004 18:25 (twenty-two years ago)
― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 18:26 (twenty-two years ago)
Unless it's something like a hilarious photocollage that is meant to point out that Michael Moore is a heavyset man, and therefore his ideas are worthless. Keep those coming.
I am mad at myself right now for even deigning to post a response in a thread that links to some ridiculous bullshit like that "Bowling for Truth" thing. Jesus christ.
― Neb Reyob (Ben Boyer), Monday, 21 June 2004 18:33 (twenty-two years ago)
― christhamrin (christhamrin), Monday, 21 June 2004 18:47 (twenty-two years ago)
http://www.fritzliess.com/movabletype/archives/images/moore_dude_book.jpghttp://hogwild.net/images/Balloons/2003.06.08/michael.moore-madeleine.albright.jpghttp://www.attackcartoons.com/bigcameras.GIF
― christhamrin (christhamrin), Monday, 21 June 2004 18:49 (twenty-two years ago)
― de, Monday, 21 June 2004 19:01 (twenty-two years ago)
― christhamrin (christhamrin), Monday, 21 June 2004 19:20 (twenty-two years ago)
― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 20:43 (twenty-two years ago)
― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 21 June 2004 21:04 (twenty-two years ago)
(I've never seen him smoke on TV).
― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 21:06 (twenty-two years ago)
i stopped reading hitchens when he stopped trying to make convincing arguments.
― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 21 June 2004 21:09 (twenty-two years ago)
So I know, thanks, before you tell me, that a documentary must have a "POV" or point of view and that it must also impose a narrative line. But if you leave out absolutely everything that might give your "narrative" a problem and throw in any old rubbish that might support it, and you don't even care that one bit of that rubbish flatly contradicts the next bit, and you give no chance to those who might differ, then you have betrayed your craft.
― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 21 June 2004 21:11 (twenty-two years ago)
― supertzarnaut (calstars), Monday, 21 June 2004 22:11 (twenty-two years ago)
― Neb Reyob (Ben Boyer), Monday, 21 June 2004 22:29 (twenty-two years ago)
a) Charlton Heston is a senile jackass (true)b) Canadian media is always very polite, and would never exploit fear for ratings (wrong!)
Really, I wouldn't care about the film's many distortions of the truth if it made any fucking sense.
― Symplistic (shmuel), Monday, 21 June 2004 23:28 (twenty-two years ago)
From Slate.
― Hunter (Hunter), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 00:19 (twenty-two years ago)
Funny how easily "An administration" or "A call to arms" or even "A former journalist" can be subbed in for "film," no?
― captain gay, Tuesday, 22 June 2004 00:42 (twenty-two years ago)
― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 00:48 (twenty-two years ago)
― o. nate (onate), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 03:14 (twenty-two years ago)
― Symplistic (shmuel), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 03:27 (twenty-two years ago)
― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 22 June 2004 03:51 (twenty-two years ago)