Things that suck I: Druggists refuse to give out birth control pills

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http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-11-08-druggists-pill_x.htm

The article unfortunately isn't particularly clearly written. It establishes early on that the APA's policy is that pharmacists should be allowed to refuse to fill out prescriptions on moral grounds (which I'm more or less down with), provided that they ensure there's alternative arragements. But it doesn't seem interested in distinguishing between that and "I'm not filling this out, and I'm not returning it" in the rest of its length.

Also it mentions "The U.S. House of Representatives passed a provision in September that would block federal funds from local, state and federal authorities if they make health care workers perform, pay for or make referrals for abortions" but only makes vague hints about whether there's a push towards filing birth-control as abortion, which would obviously make that provision a lot more relevant.

Anyway: this is TEH SUCK, with Andrew Farrell.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 11 November 2004 13:29 (twenty-one years ago)

That is bullshit. Although the pharmacy (eg CVS corporation. etc) needs to create a clear policy - either that pharmacists WILL dispense all prescriptions or pharmacists can object on moral grounds. If they choose the former policy, then fire the pharmacists. If they choose the latter, boycott the pharmacy nationwide.

― dave225 (Dave225), Thursday, 11 November 2004 13:35 (twenty-one years ago)

What if a pharmacist had a moral problem with treating people who were terminally ill? 'Just let them die with dignity instead of drawing out their suffering' .. Is it really up to the pharmacist's "moral judgement" to make decisions on other people's health? God Dammit this country is pissing me off.

― dave225 (Dave225), Thursday, 11 November 2004 13:44 (twenty-one years ago)

this puts me in mind of bush's choice to head the reproductive health arm of the u.s. fda. biblical healing, here we come.

― lauren (laurenp), Thursday, 11 November 2004 13:46 (twenty-one years ago)

This makes me soooo blinking angry. Do they assume they're going to be in power long enough to draft all the babies once they're grown up so they can be killed in righteous conflicts?

― Liz :x (Liz :x), Thursday, 11 November 2004 13:48 (twenty-one years ago)

So, can the 55 million democrats be mobilised to boycott companies who sanction crazy-assed religious-nut right-wing-nazi policies? I hope they can.

― Markelby (Mark C), Thursday, 11 November 2004 13:50 (twenty-one years ago)

companies who sanction crazy-assed religious-nut right-wing-nazi policies

the government, basically.

― lauren (laurenp), Thursday, 11 November 2004 14:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Do they assume they're going to be in power long enough to draft all the babies once they're grown up so they can be killed in righteous conflicts?

Republicans and Tories both seem to believe that they should *always* be in power - "the natural party of government" and all that rubbish.

― caitlin (caitlin), Thursday, 11 November 2004 14:08 (twenty-one years ago)

I wonder if these same pharmacists would dispense Viagra willingly. Not that Viagra is a counterpart to birth control, but it's interesting that there are (or have been, maybe not anymore) insurance plans that cover Viagra but not birth control.

― caitlin oh no (caitxa1), Thursday, 11 November 2004 14:42 (twenty-one years ago)

i've wondered about that, as well. the two things are comparable in the sense that neither are medically necessary (strictly speaking). it seems like a pretty clear-cut gender bias issue.

― lauren (laurenp), Thursday, 11 November 2004 15:00 (twenty-one years ago)

But who would have a moral issue with b@nerz!

― dave225 (Dave225), Thursday, 11 November 2004 15:02 (twenty-one years ago)

ihttp://i.imdb.com/Photos/Sbk/60/6033200_2_7.jpg

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 11 November 2004 15:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Referral Denied
You don't have permission to access "http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Sbk/60/6033200_2_7.jpg" on this server

― dave225 (Dave225), Thursday, 11 November 2004 15:31 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue201/angel1.jpg

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 11 November 2004 15:33 (twenty-one years ago)

This is surprising in any way?

Besides, didn't you know, the only acceptable form of birth control is abstinence!

― tokyo rosemary (rosemary), Thursday, 11 November 2004 15:34 (twenty-one years ago)

These pharmacists should consider themselves lucky that so far pro-choice activists don't seem inclined to use rifles or bombs to get their opinions across.

Now I'm mad.

― TOMBOT 64 (TOMBOT 64), Thursday, 11 November 2004 15:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Maybe the pharmacists are just jealous bcz they're not getting any.

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 11 November 2004 15:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Guns and bombs work for the pro-life side, why can't we use them???

― tokyo rosemary (rosemary), Thursday, 11 November 2004 15:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Because then it would be proven that we are godless killers.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 11 November 2004 15:43 (twenty-one years ago)

myabe we should attack said pharmacists with giant foreceps instead. force them into stirrups and threaten to abort their organs.

― Emilymv (Emilymv), Thursday, 11 November 2004 15:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Or shove pills down their throats. Or, just some Ex-lax brownies.

― dave225 (Dave225), Thursday, 11 November 2004 15:48 (twenty-one years ago)

there was something about this on radio 4 a month or two ago. apparently there are doctors in this country who refuse to prescribe the pill, and this is allowed...

― toby (tsg20), Thursday, 11 November 2004 15:59 (twenty-one years ago)

This makes me so angry, I don't know where to begin.

― Leon the Fratboy (Ex Leon), Thursday, 11 November 2004 16:00 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm really not sure where to start either but I think it's the throat.
If by some strange occurence I was present when a pharmacist refused to fill a scrip for birth control I might get put in the county lockup.

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 11 November 2004 16:04 (twenty-one years ago)

would you chant-"i will go to lock up to prevent a knock up"? i think you should.

― Emilymv (Emilymv), Thursday, 11 November 2004 16:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Is the best response a boycott combined with assistance to pressure groups (Planned Parenthood et al)?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 11 November 2004 16:07 (twenty-one years ago)

There really should be self-serve pharmacies anyway. Those guys take way too fucking long to put 30 pills in a jar.

― dave225 (Dave225), Thursday, 11 November 2004 16:07 (twenty-one years ago)

It's going to be hard to stifle a cheer if a liberal ever assassinates a [insert right wing nutter everyman here].

― Markelby (Mark C), Thursday, 11 November 2004 16:07 (twenty-one years ago)

It is not so much the act ITSELF as the mindset that perpetrates it. I keep thinking about that part in Kill Bill where The Bride maims Julie Dreyfus with the honzo. Oh yeah.

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 11 November 2004 16:10 (twenty-one years ago)

This happened at my school last year, when one of the nurses refused to hand out emergency contraception/morning after pill/EARLY ABORTION/whatever you're calling it. There's not always more than one nurse on duty at the health center, so with a 72-hour window for taking it this is pretty alarming and a lot of people on campus got really upset about this...there really wasn't anything we could do about it, though.

― Maria (Maria), Thursday, 11 November 2004 16:46 (twenty-one years ago)

I think a fantastic political protest for this would be for pro-choice pharmacists to refuse to fill painkiller perscriptions.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 11 November 2004 16:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Actually, just refuse to fill anything.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 11 November 2004 16:49 (twenty-one years ago)

I need to start stocking up on birth control pills like some people do with canned foods.

― Sarah McLusky (coco), Thursday, 11 November 2004 17:31 (twenty-one years ago)

keep your jesus off my penis song

― Spinning Down Alone You Spin Alive (ex machina), Thursday, 11 November 2004 18:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Sarah trust me, you don't want to do that.

This is such bullshit, why the fuck would you become a doctor or pharmacist if you had moral issues with ANY health issue or procedure?

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Thursday, 11 November 2004 18:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Sarah, just emigrate.

― Markelby (Mark C), Thursday, 11 November 2004 18:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Why was it illegal for Kevorkian to exercise his "morality" ? At least in his case, the patients/(customers) agreed with his philosophy.

― dave225 (Dave225), Thursday, 11 November 2004 18:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Someone I knew in high school had very irregular and painful periods, and took the bc pill to regulate them. She went to a new doctor, who WOULD NOT PRESCRIBE THEM to unmarried girls! Hurrah for the girl's mother who called the doctor and ripped her a new one, and for the girl who took her business elsewhere.

― Layna Andersen (Layna Andersen), Thursday, 11 November 2004 19:06 (twenty-one years ago)

I knew that going to that Christian Scientist pharmacist would be a bad idea.

― Pleasant Plains (Pleasant Plains), Thursday, 11 November 2004 19:09 (twenty-one years ago)

If you're sick, you can just read yourself better.

― dave225 (Dave225), Thursday, 11 November 2004 19:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, I was thinking about that too, Layna. I can think of at least two ILXors who have posted about having the same condition and being prescribed various forms of birth control to regulate it. I was also kind of appalled by the indication in that article that they were refusing to give a girl who had been raped Plan B.

I'm pretty sure this entire country has lost its shit completely, to be totally honest.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Thursday, 11 November 2004 19:18 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm with the "fuck, this makes me so mad I don't even know where to begin" contingent. omfckinggod. Was feminism just a trend that reached the mainstream for a few minutes and has now been forgotten? Like it's now just another subculture? I wonder sometimes, what with all this 2 steps back 1 step forward evidence. We can say "At least it's getting news coverage", but that's crap; it's not anywhere near enough.

― rrrobyn (rrrobyn), Thursday, 11 November 2004 19:46 (twenty-one years ago)

On a related note, I just learned from my sister that my dad is pro-life except in very extreme circumstances. :-(

― Sarah McLusky (coco), Thursday, 11 November 2004 19:54 (twenty-one years ago)

ask him if women who have abortions should be put in jail

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Thursday, 11 November 2004 19:58 (twenty-one years ago)

I think I'd rather just avoid the subject. Apparently, he got really mad about it when he was talking to her. He's a Democrat, but a fairly conservative one. I think his neighbors and brothers must have gotten to him. But yeah, sorry to derail the thread.

― Sarah McLusky (coco), Thursday, 11 November 2004 20:01 (twenty-one years ago)

We called in something for a patient the other day, who WAS NOT PREGNANT, and the pharmacist refused to fill it because she said "it looks like they're trying to induce an ABOOORTION." It was the first time anything like that had happened to us. Fuck the times.

― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Thursday, 11 November 2004 20:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Obvious response, but:
Yet automatic weapons are sold every day...
Um, looks like someone's going to maybe shoot someone? Never!

― rrrobyn (rrrobyn), Thursday, 11 November 2004 20:24 (twenty-one years ago)

It seems like doctors, pharmacies etc should be CLEARLY LABELLED so that you don't go to the wrong one for the wrong thing. Need birth control? Go to the one labelled Not Loony.

― Layna Andersen (Layna Andersen), Thursday, 11 November 2004 20:26 (twenty-one years ago)

anybody notice this bit:

"I refuse to dispense a drug with a significant mechanism to stop human life," says Karen Brauer, president of the 1,500-member Pharmacists for Life International.

DAMN NEAR EVERYTHING YOU DISPENSE CAN KILL PEOPLE.

― kingfish (Kingfish), Thursday, 11 November 2004 20:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Exactly! It's totally Loony how quickly history evaporates and/or alters - women were dying trying to induce abortions themselves using all sorts of drugstore meds. Hell, they still do it today b/c they don't know what else to do or feel it's too 'taboo' to ask for the morning-after pill. I always thought it was ridiculous that sex was classified as a sin, but, especially in light of the U.S. election results, I guess that's the case? I have fear.

― rrrobyn (rrrobyn), Thursday, 11 November 2004 20:36 (twenty-one years ago)

So you all are going to find out what the policy is on this at your local drugstore, right?

I haven't had a prescription in nearly ten years or else I'd be right there with you.

― Pleasant Plains (Pleasant Plains), Thursday, 11 November 2004 21:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Just burn Texas. Just burn it. Fuck that fucking state.

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 11 November 2004 21:13 (twenty-one years ago)

I've said it before, TOM. You could set fire to that state tonight and it'd still look the same tomorrow morning.

― Pleasant Plains (Pleasant Plains), Thursday, 11 November 2004 21:36 (twenty-one years ago)

I know that, I lived there for 5 fucking months.
Honestly several of the people I met there seemed quite nice.
But I could say the same for Florida.

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 11 November 2004 21:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Could we miss the part that has my cousin in it?

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 11 November 2004 22:01 (twenty-one years ago)

The only downside to setting fire to Florida: everyone's grandparents live there.

― n/a (Nick A.), Thursday, 11 November 2004 22:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Mine don't! They're all dead except for my step-grandmother. :-(

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 11 November 2004 22:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Pretty soon the earth is going to spit this country out into the far corners of the universe.

― Je4nne ƒury (Jeanne Fury), Thursday, 11 November 2004 22:22 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.georgewbushstore.com/images/601_6010.jpg

― trigonalmayhem (trigonalmayhem), Thursday, 11 November 2004 22:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Woman: "What do you mean you won't give me my birth control pills?"
Druggist: "No, ma'am, those put an end to human life and I cannot support that. It's against the word of God."
Woman: "Can you tell me where the coat hangers are?"
Druggist: "Aisle 5"
Woman: "Thanks."

― trigonalmayhem (trigonalmayhem), Thursday, 11 November 2004 22:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Another reason Texas should be blown to shit, and more things to generally get infuriated about. I'm really glad my archconservative idiot fuck coworker is off today.

http://www.cjr.org/issues/2004/6/mooney-science.asp

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 11 November 2004 22:33 (twenty-one years ago)

These pharmacists should consider themselves lucky that so far pro-choice activists don't seem inclined to use rifles or bombs to get their opinions across.
Now I'm mad.

Personally, if this was going on anywhere around me, I'd just lob a brick or two through their windows in the middle of the night.

― trigonalmayhem (trigonalmayhem), Thursday, 11 November 2004 22:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Now I feel like blowing Texas to shit, and I've never even been there.

― RickyT (RickyT), Thursday, 11 November 2004 23:07 (twenty-one years ago)

I recall reading an article in Rolling Stone a while ago about these insane christian fundies who more or less stalked and harrased people involved in abortion clinics, as perilously close to the edge of the law as they could. They'd stand outside their homes day and night, stick up signs calling them baby murderers, and go round to all the stores the person patronised and tell the shopkeepers to stop serving them etc etc.

Well fuck this, if there is such a thing as the "Pharmacists for Life International" then this gives us a list of what pharmacies are involved in this ugly practice.

So people should serve it right back up to them. Don't just boycott them - picket them, harrass them, make their lives hell and put them out of business! I almost wish I lived in the US because if I did, I would seriously start organising such a thing.

― Trayce (trayce), Thursday, 11 November 2004 23:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Trayce, a few family planning doctors have been killed in North Dakota - they were Minnesotans who flew/drove in to serve at the clinics part time.

I would have thought in the greater scheme of things that doctor's orders trumped pharmacist's wishes. If one was in a one-drugstore town with a zealot in charge and one could experience delays in treatment due to that person's obstruction, there are legal remedies there.

― suzy (suzy), Friday, 12 November 2004 00:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Aye, sadly we have even had some family planning clinic staff murdered here in Melbourne too - a security guard at one place a few years back was shot defending the staff from a mentally ill guy who burst in with a gun. Terrible. Extremist catholics picket a place I sometimes go by on my tram to work, I used to think that was a really US thing but it goes on here too.

I too would have thought there was some law around scrips that mean if a doctor's issued one, it must be filled, stuff wank what the chemist thinks. I guess not though. I sincerely hope it never comes to that here - but if it does I'll be first in line to organise protests against it. As someone who's had to be on the pill for medical rather than birth control reasons myself, this issue is very important to me.

― Trayce (trayce), Friday, 12 November 2004 00:41 (twenty-one years ago)

"Stuff wank"? I meant "stiff wank". For some reason.

― Trayce (trayce), Friday, 12 November 2004 00:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Hmm...I'd certainly never advocate throwing bricks through windows or forcing any private business to sell goods that they don't want to, but I don't see what right an individual pharmacist (unless they also own their shop) would have to arbitrarily refuse to fill some prescriptions. Regardless, it would certainly be bad business sense.

― mouse (mouse), Friday, 12 November 2004 00:47 (twenty-one years ago)

For sure - I'd like to think people would find out and they'd lose business out of it.

Tho I've a sinking feeling that perhaps in some small or very close knit religious townships maybe it'd have the opposite effect :/ Also if it was the only one in town as someone said above... god how horrible. Aie, this whole thing upsets me.

― Trayce (trayce), Friday, 12 November 2004 00:50 (twenty-one years ago)

I have this menacing "Handmaids Tale" feeling about all this.

― Trayce (trayce), Friday, 12 November 2004 00:51 (twenty-one years ago)

But this is the age of online pharmacies and mail order drugs. I doubt that this is going to be a serious problem.

― mouse (mouse), Friday, 12 November 2004 00:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Mm... thats a good point :)

― Trayce (trayce), Friday, 12 November 2004 00:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah well, not that that wouldn't suck arse. I had insurance for a while that for some inexplicable reason required that I mail order birth control pills (other drugs could be picked up at the pharmacy, mind). Can we get all het up about that sort of thing instead?

― mouse (mouse), Friday, 12 November 2004 02:16 (twenty-one years ago)

I had insurance that refused to go through mail order/internet drugstores, actually.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Friday, 12 November 2004 02:20 (twenty-one years ago)

But this is the age of online pharmacies and mail order drugs. I doubt that this is going to be a serious problem.

This could be a very serious problem when it comes to Plan B emergency contraception, which has a limited window of opportunity. Online and mail-order pharmacies are not much help when you need a prescription filled right away.

― j.lu (j.lu), Friday, 12 November 2004 03:38 (twenty-one years ago)

pharmacists are typically not intelligent enough to be doctors
so they should set their petty egos aside and shut the fuck up and do their job
because if they really knew better, they'd be writing prescriptions, not filing them

― trigonalmayhem (trigonalmayhem), Friday, 12 November 2004 09:40 (twenty-one years ago)

On consideration I think you have to tell the pharmacist that when you present him with a prescription the transaction is simple: fill it. If the Rx refuses to do this, I want to know on what basis they have the legal right to do so. I am not interested in personal beliefs, opinions or 'thoughts' on either side of the issue. Your personal beliefs are for you, personally. An opinion is not a fact and 'thoughts' generally don't resemble yer THINKING on the issue.

Women can all possibly agree on this statement: Until *I* decide I want to be a mother, THAT'S NOT A BABY.

― suzy (suzy), Friday, 12 November 2004 11:46 (twenty-one years ago)

? There are MILLIONS of women who don't agree with that.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Friday, 12 November 2004 11:56 (twenty-one years ago)

(or rather with the phrase "Until the mother decides...")

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Friday, 12 November 2004 12:00 (twenty-one years ago)

Andrew, that's not for a man to say.

― suzy (suzy), Friday, 12 November 2004 12:04 (twenty-one years ago)

Explain slowly. Why is my gender relevant in pointing out not all women agree on what you said they did?

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Friday, 12 November 2004 12:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Or: which 'that' are you referring to?

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Friday, 12 November 2004 12:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Andrew, I'm a journalist. Even a crap journalist calls bullshit on 'millions' claimed but not actually sourced to any stats. In the UK only 4 per cent of the population overall objects to a woman's right to abortion, for example. Whether they would have the procedure themselves WRT their OWN unplanned pregnancy is another matter entirely - and the British public make that distinction which is evident in the law here. The only problem with UK abortion policy is that the woman has to claim mental distress to terminate, whereas I believe that an unmarried woman should be able to ask for termination without having to claim a diminished or endangered status.

You will notice in the US that those who are making laws against abortion are generally MEN behaving in a paternalistic manner WRT women's reproductive rights and it is touched by their fear of female sexuality generally. I have, in professional and activist situations both, met many anti-abortion advocates who are doing so on life/religious grounds. They are almost always middle-aged men and shall we say their approach to debate suggests that they believe that women are not equal under the law to them and have to be somehow managed or controlled BY THEM PERSONALLY if sexually active. I think this attitude is both prurient and furtive and can be combatted by certain types of wake-up calls.

Women should start from the argument position of 'this is my decision, not yours, and furthermore I am in no way sorry that you have no role to play in this decision-making process which is mine, not yours.'

― suzy (suzy), Friday, 12 November 2004 12:38 (twenty-one years ago)

why not kidnap pharmacists and inseminate them against their will and see how they like it?

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 12 November 2004 12:45 (twenty-one years ago)

But this is the age of online pharmacies and mail order drugs. I doubt that this is going to be a serious problem.

Also, it's the lower class, without access to computers and/or credit cards that will suffer.... again.

xpost

suzy, while I agree with your overall point of view, I don't think you're 10% correct. I live by a clinic that performs abortions. Most of the picketers (every Saturday) are women and, sickeningly, children.

Also, I think Andrew's remark was that millions of women disagree with when to call a baby a baby. He was responding to the idea that you can't call it a baby until the mother calls it one. When a teenage girl throws a baby into a dumpster, I doubt she thinks of it as a baby.

Again, I think we're all basically on the same side here ..

― dave225 (Dave225), Friday, 12 November 2004 12:48 (twenty-one years ago)

and by 10%, I mean 70%.

― dave225 (Dave225), Friday, 12 November 2004 12:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Dave, I'd love to see a pie chart of how I'm wrong and right.

Women and children making scenes at clinics is somewhat lower on the scale of importance than dealing with who's indoctrinating them in the first place or manipulating them for political gain: neo-conservative men.

― suzy (suzy), Friday, 12 November 2004 12:55 (twenty-one years ago)

'Millions' is entirely unsourced and I don't have complete confidence in it, though I do have more than in your initial estimate of zero.

You do seem intent on positioning this as a straight battle of the sexes, and while that's mostly true, and matches your experiences, you have to remember that people are fucking crazy, and cannot be relied on to act in their own interest. It's not just men with their foot on the neck of Womankind, many women are happy to perform the contortions that allow them to put their own foot there.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Friday, 12 November 2004 12:56 (twenty-one years ago)

My first sentence there is more combatative than it should be. Sorry.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Friday, 12 November 2004 13:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Andrew, you also have nothing new to tell me about female misogyny.

― suzy (suzy), Friday, 12 November 2004 14:58 (twenty-one years ago)

Grand. So what were you saying in the sentence I took exception to?

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Friday, 12 November 2004 15:03 (twenty-one years ago)

I was suggesting a possible argument strategy that disarmed through disrespect. You interpreted this as a sweeping statement - go back and find the 'possibly'.

Women are protected from this sort of thing by Roe v. Wade ultimately. Their constitutional right to terminate pregnancies is enshrined in it as-is. Women have to say 'these are my rights' as opposed to 'I'm sorry, but' followed by whatever, because that is the beginning of the dimunition of their rights. No negotiation, no 'compromise'. We need Pink Panthers or something. Also, the Constitution is about permission, not prohibition. That's why the booze ban did not work.

It is not a battle of the sexes. The men that pursue these forms of legislation are in the minority of men overall; the women who support them are in the minority overall.

― suzy (suzy), Friday, 12 November 2004 16:56 (twenty-one years ago)

What is interesting to me is that pharmacists are licenced by the state, like doctors. Drugstores are not, strictly speaking, an entirely privatized business. So if something is legal by state law and a state-licenced social worker refuses to handle it or pass it on to a "more qualified" social worker (which, effectively, a pharmacist is), shouldn't the state be able to step in and revoke their licence? Why should any state handle this delicately? Would they handle it delicately if a child protection social worker refused to remove a child from a dangerous situation if the parents of the child were their friends?

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Friday, 12 November 2004 17:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Thank. You. Ally.

― suzy (suzy), Friday, 12 November 2004 17:11 (twenty-one years ago)

well, i am fairly certain that doctors can decide whether or not they will provide abortions and birht control to their clients and not be at risk of losing their licenses. so i assume this would be the same for pharmacists. i don't think that the analogy with social workers holds water.

― Emilymv (Emilymv), Friday, 12 November 2004 17:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Not in the state of NY, AFAIK. They're required to provide information on where to obtain such services if the doctor doesn't perform them for one reason or another.

Refusing to return a script is clearly in violation of the law, unless Texas has some really insane law codes that I am unaware of, Emily. That's grounds to revoke their licencing.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Friday, 12 November 2004 17:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Wouldn't you be able to have them arrested for theft for refusing to return the script? I would think so.

― Leon the Fratboy (Ex Leon), Friday, 12 November 2004 17:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Hahaha. If militancy won't work, there's always our old friend bureacracy!

What is disturbing for me is a macro issue, that 'family values' is just diet feudalism and a feudal society is a retrograde step. I've been banging on at the New Feudalism for ages and now all the mainstream press here refers to ' bloodlines' when writing about nepotistic subjects, whether royalty, someone who's Isabella Rosselini's daughter or just from generations of Italian bakers. Feudalism entrenches class divisions and racial divisions on the basis of being part of 'the family' or not. Women are particularly subordinated or placed in 'power behing the throne' or if in power given 'queen bee' status.

Just think about it. Where is this GOING?

― suzy (suzy), Friday, 12 November 2004 17:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Not in the state of NY, AFAIK. They're required to provide information on where to obtain such services if the doctor doesn't perform them for one reason or another.

Although I will point out that NY also has laws that require any insurance company who wants to issue policies in NY to cover ALL female reproductive issues, and not just pre- and post-natal care, so we might just be extraordinarily progressive. That being said, Arizona also requires doctors to provide full alternative information (including, of course, adoption information as well as abortion information and such). The law's ostensible intent is to protect OBGYNs who cannot perform the services due to lack of equipment et al but obviously also protects those who refuse to provide abortions for moral reasons.

xpost yeah that's basically what I'm implying, there are quite a few legal reasons why taking a script and neither filling it nor returning it to the patient is blatantly against the law and no amount of opt-out "Oh maybe the pharmacy doesn't have this medication" loophole laws can protect that.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Friday, 12 November 2004 17:53 (twenty-one years ago)

I wonder if this is something someone could keep on hand, in case of emergency?

― Layna Andersen (Layna Andersen), Friday, 12 November 2004 17:57 (twenty-one years ago)

The problem with keeping Plan B (or any type of birth control) on hand is the expiration date. The effectiveness of any of these medications decreases exponentially by month the longer they are expired. If you kept it on hand, you would probably need to get a new script and a replacement yearly to keep yourself safe.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Friday, 12 November 2004 18:00 (twenty-one years ago)

Would people buy a morning-after spray?

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 12 November 2004 18:01 (twenty-one years ago)

(By "people" I mean women; I fear the thought of men stocking up on female birth control.)

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 12 November 2004 18:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Hold on. They are minded to swipe the actual prescription from the woman if they disapprove of her choice?

― suzy (suzy), Friday, 12 November 2004 18:02 (twenty-one years ago)

(Like I said, that goes for any of the hormonal birth controls so anyone who keeps packets of back up birth control pills, nuva rings, ortho evra, et al GO CHECK THE EXPIRATION DATE RIGHT NOW AND TOSS ANYTHING THAT EXPIRES 11/2004 OR EARLIER!! This Public Service Announcement has been brought to you by "The More You Know...")

xpost yeah, Suzy, that was an issue brought up in the article, or one of the ones posted, I believe, that a doctor or two initially refused to even return the script.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Friday, 12 November 2004 18:03 (twenty-one years ago)

That's actionable if that's the case. Not much difference between that expression of personal moral beliefs and pinpricking their entire stock of condoms.

― suzy (suzy), Friday, 12 November 2004 18:05 (twenty-one years ago)

clearly they ought at least to have to return the prescription, i missed that part of the discussion. but there is a HUGE difference in doctors legally having to give prospective clients information on aboriton providers and legally having to BE abortion providers. no one seems to mind that doctors have this discretion. maybe pharmacists could be made to give information on pharmacies that fill such prescriptons?

― Emilymv (Emilymv), Friday, 12 November 2004 18:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, that's the gist here, same as the social worker argument. If a social worker is working on a case and it turns out to be a family member or a friend (ie they might have some kind of moral or emotional stake in the issue) they are meant to turn over the case to someone else. This is a clear cut issue in the legal system, and I don't see why this is being handled as a delicate matter in regards to health service providers, who are also state-licenced and sanctioned. I have no problem* with a pharmacist refusing to fill a prescription for any medication he or she feels is wrong for some reason but the fact that they aren't providing any further information (especially in smaller, less populated areas where a person might very well find it difficult to locate somewhere that might have the medications in question) and that some of them feel fit to confiscate the scripts is another matter altogether.

* No problem here is a misnomer. I do have a problem with someone entering the health industry with a clear cut moral agenda against scientifically accepted procedures, as I really don't understand why someone would BECOME an OBGYN if they refuse to deal with any reproductive issues besides carried-out pregnancies and will not prescribe any preventative measures, but it's really not my job to tell people they shouldn't get involved in a profession if they have some kind of moral objection to major sections of what the profession involves.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Friday, 12 November 2004 18:43 (twenty-one years ago)

(This is a very informative thread and I thank y'all.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 12 November 2004 18:48 (twenty-one years ago)

it does seem strange for someone with such extreme views to choose those professions. on the other hand, maybe the moral code was developed later in life, after the career was underway.

― Emilymv (Emilymv), Friday, 12 November 2004 18:48 (twenty-one years ago)

am I the only person who sees that the variety of services provided by doctors is like 100 times greater than the variety of services provided by pharmacists?

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Friday, 12 November 2004 18:56 (twenty-one years ago)

with related questions of expertise and skill?

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Friday, 12 November 2004 18:57 (twenty-one years ago)

I have no problem* with a pharmacist refusing to fill a prescription for any medication he or she feels is wrong for some reason..

I don't have a problem with it when there is a drugstore on every corner .. Unfortunately, again, the argument leaves out poorer people in smaller cities, suburban or rural locations who may have to travel a fur piece to get to another pharmacy. And without owning a car and without public transportation available.

So for that reason, I'm against a pharmacist or doctor intervening in such a way.

― dave225 (Dave225), Friday, 12 November 2004 19:01 (twenty-one years ago)

anyone in a rural area GET OUT NOW

― dave q (listerine), Friday, 12 November 2004 19:06 (twenty-one years ago)

i certainly don't agree with them (those refusing to precribe or fill said prescriptions) but i don't think that they should be forced to act against their morals either. perhaps the problem dave mentioned could be avoided by the doctor filling the prescriptions knowing beforehand which pharmacy would fill it.

― Emilymv (Emilymv), Friday, 12 November 2004 19:12 (twenty-one years ago)

..or having a pharmacy located at the doctor's office .. but there's a whole issue with competition and free trade, etc, etc.. But just knowing that "yes, the CVS in Pixley will fill that for you" doesn't do much good when you live in Hooterville. (Although I think the cannonball does make daily stops in Pixley.)

― dave225 (Dave225), Friday, 12 November 2004 19:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Most OBGYNs (and even general family practitioners who do basic OBGYN services) get tons of free samples from pharmaceutical companies of various birth control methods. My doctor in NYC had no problem handing us like three months worth of samples each visit just in case (you can't get to the pharmacy immediately, you forgot to refill the prescription, whatever). Is this not the same in less urban areas? I imagine they would get samples too, though maybe not in the same magnitude as "busier" (and higher-priced) urban doctors, I imagine the doctors could help lessen the problem by distributing more of the samples to women in areas where there are less pharmacies as a precautionary measure against zealous pharmacists? It's not really a solution but it would help avoid the problem of these women who are ending up missing pills and being at risk because of this situation of having to hunt for a new pharmacy.

Also, Planned Parenthoods generally have limited pharmacies located within them as well...again this doesn't really HELP women who are in areas with only a small number of pharmacies to choose from, where a Planned Parenthood might be hours away.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Friday, 12 November 2004 22:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Obviously distributing more samples in less populated areas which are more likely to get this pharmacy problem has utterly no financial incentive for the pharmaceutical companies so this might be a huge stumbling block in my interim solution.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Friday, 12 November 2004 22:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Most hospitals have a pharmacy in them too.

― suzy (suzy), Friday, 12 November 2004 22:20 (twenty-one years ago)

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