God save der fuhrer

Oh the Board of Deputies of British Jews says a lot of things.

Do you think it's 'in' now? January is the time to look for new trends

The Sun reported that Prince William was also at the party - dressed as a lion.

Yeah, you'd think as prince, he could just waltz into the Imperial War Museum and take whatever he wants!

"Still, why would he pick this costume at all???"

Maybe he sees great uncle Eddie as a role model

I was thinking the very same thing.

The Board of Deputies of British Wildebeest said the costume was "in bad taste".

Dude, the coterie that surrounds the prince thought it would be cool and fun to have a 'colonials and natives' party. How many of them do you think blacked up for the occasion? I'm not sure how Nazism fits into the colonial thing anyway, but maybe Harry's just been reading Vice recently.

The thread in question.

Anyone who goes to parties like that AND Chinawhites really is the worst kind of horrible upper class english wanker. Get rid of the lots of them!

Haha the fucking royals. Shoot them.

They used to sell nazi uniforms in toy shops - honest. I wasn't allowed one, so I had a cowboy suit instead.

That might be a bit extreme, I was just thinking of stripping them of their titles...

So someone's made a quick buck selling pictures of Prince Harry dressed as a comedy Nazi at a fancy dress party and managed to spark a national controversy in the process.

The man on the radio today sounded pretty upset about all this: "How dare he make fun of the war, people gave their lives fighting the Nazis" etc etc. Fair dos, maybe as a British prince Harry could have used a little more tact in his choice of dressware. "This is VERY serious". Is it? They're even talking about not letting Harry into the army because of this incident. Is this fair?

First and foremost Harry is a normal young man foist unto a messed up family, an unwanted amount of responsibility and the looming shadow of his goody-two-shoes older brother and late mother. All-in-all he is doing what every person his age will do, but every time he lifts a drink to his mouth or acts the clown some bounty hunter with a camera comes along and suddenly he's a drug addict or a drunk or a N4zi. I'd be less sympathetic if it were Britney Spears or Charlotte Church who were castigated but Harry never chose to be an example-setter. He's probably sick to death of being a royal. Many people will know that Prince Charles was no better at the same age. And for goodness-sake, it's just fancy dress! Get a grip!

I couldn't normally give to effs about what the royal family get up to, but in this case it's a matter of principal. One of my pet hates is people who constantly add salt to a healing wound by bringing up by-gone conflicts that don't matter any more like the second world war. Why is it alright for gift shops to sell war memorabillia and nostalgic calendars of "War Heroes" and diaries that look like rationing booklets. Why is it seen as patriotic for footballers to jeer "Two world wars and one world cup" at the Germans and yet someone dressing up in comedy regalia is seen as some kind of national coup? Remember that Harry's ancestors were blood-thirsty killers too but if he'd dressed up as King Richard then no-one would be bothered at all.

Why is this poor bloke supposed to act differently from anybody else? Why should he?

-- dog latin

With the 60th anniversary of the liberation of that camp coming up later this month, Prince Harry should be urged to join a British delegation planning to visit, they said.

"This was a shameful act displaying insensitivity for the victims, not just for those soldiers of his own country who gave their lives to defeat Nazism, but to the victims of the Holocaust," said the centre founder Rabbi Marvin Hier.

Prince Harry should go to Auschwitz to see for himself "the results of the hated symbol he so foolishly and brazenly chose to wear," he added."

About right really

by-gone conflicts that don't matter any more like the second world war.

I mean seriously, are you on crack? This is not something that most people would do or get away with in my experience of life among non-nazi sympathizers. Sure regular folks wouldn't be in the papers, but it's his fuckin' choice.

i'd be careful about stating it doesn't matter anymore but i agree with you in theory. my question is just, to echo what's already been said somewhat, 'why would ANYONE dress as a Nazi to a fancy-dress party in the first place??'

xpost

He probably doesn't even know about the Auschwitz anniversary.

I mean seriously I think you have to be a bit of a tosser to even want to dress up as a Nazi, perhaps a harmless one but nonetheless, the fact is he does have a responsibility, whether he wants it or was forced to do it or not, and if he's too thick to realise the extent of the hassle something like this causes him then he needs to be told!

First and foremost Harry is a normal young man foist unto a messed up family, an unwanted amount of responsibility and the looming shadow of his goody-two-shoes older brother and late mother. All-in-all he is doing what every person his age will do, but every time he lifts a drink to his mouth or acts the clown some bounty hunter with a camera comes along and suddenly he's a drug addict or a drunk or a N4zi. I'd be less sympathetic if it were Britney Spears or Charlotte Church who were castigated but Harry never chose to be an example-setter. He's probably sick to death of being a royal. Many people will know that Prince Charles was no better at the same age. And for goodness-sake, it's just fancy dress! Get a grip!

I couldn't normally give to effs about what the royal family get up to, but in this case it's a matter of principal. One of my pet hates is people who constantly add salt to a healing wound by bringing up by-gone conflicts that don't matter any more like the second world war. Why is it alright for gift shops to sell war memorabillia and nostalgic calendars of "War Heroes" and diaries that look like rationing booklets. Why is it seen as patriotic for footballers to jeer "Two world wars and one world cup" at the Germans and yet someone dressing up in comedy regalia is seen as some kind of national coup? Remember that Harry's ancestors were blood-thirsty killers too but if he'd dressed up as King Richard then no-one would be bothered at all.

Why is this poor bloke supposed to act differently from anybody else? Why should he?

Yes, but Harry's ancestors = the Germans, innit.

Also since when is dressing up like a Nazi like going down the pub to have a meat pie with the boyos or whatever! Ah yes nothing better on an average weekend than a few pints, loosening your belt, and donning a swastika. now that's relaxation!

(also of course he's a young, drunk, stupid posh kid without a care for the outside world who I'm sure had no idea it could even have been offensive)

That said, it is surely true that some of the comments on this in the media are hyperbolic. It is obv an indication of the stupidity of the english gentry more than anything sinister, I think.

Could it be that murdoch's republican agenda is what pushed this story to the front page of the sun?

in which case Go Rupe!

he's a young, drunk, stupid posh kid without a care for the outside world who I'm sure had no idea it could even have been offensive

i agree w. all this except the last bit -- is this really possible? can people really not see it?

Okay, saying his generation is quite a generalisation. But to him, i mean, i'm sure the 2nd world war doesn't keep him up at night.

but dressing up in a Nazi uniform doesn't make one a Nazi, surely. Maybe it'd help if he'd made fun of the uniform a bit more so it was more obvious (if that's what he was doing) that he was making fun OF the nazis ("haha you nazis sucked now we wear your uniform for fun at parties") rather than like, endorsing it like ("dude those nazis sure pwned them jews").

I mean, if he came to a party dressed up as some guy dying in a gas chamber, sure, that's pretty fucking sick. but i thought with these kinds of fancy dress satire the pisstake spear is usually pointed at who was being imitated?

i still don't see how this falls into a "colonial and natives" category of dress, though.

going down the pub dressed as a lion would be equally absurd.

the nazis attempted to colonise parts of eastern europe perhaps?

xxpost

is what I was querying Ken. i guess it's a matter of tact: a bunch of aristos dressing up as their overseer grandparents at a 'colonials and natives' party is already ominous. and what the nazis did was not exactly colonialism!

I find the whole idea of a fancy dress party based on a "colonial and native" theme pretty fucking distasteful as well Ned, especially given

I don't like the idea of allowing symbols to gain power over us, a swastika out of context is not offensive and is a ancient symbol used by other religions and societys.

The fact that he decided to dress as a Nazi is pretty stupid especially given that we're months away from the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz.

Who asked this - i can't find it except in ken's post :- )

Erm, because it's the law. I f we were to round up all the people
in this country who have nazi/fascist ideologies rather than people who've actually committed criminal acts I daresay we'd be more than doing the work of A.Hitler.
This guy, however, has his education paid for by me and you.
Perhaps he's ignorant. Perhaps he was sleeping with his eyes open
when his great grandmother told him about her life during 39-45.
Perhaps he is a bit unthinking. Fine. Let's make sure he knows the story (the rest of us desreve that, aswell).
Following that, if he discovers and professes to a genuine affinity
with fascism, then he has every right to that freedom.

"I find the whole idea of a fancy dress party based on a "colonial and native" theme pretty fucking distasteful as well Ned, especially given"

yes

Horseshit! I can't even go into this, but this line is not going to fly. You don't have 'every right' to be a fascist, any more than you have 'every right' do gas all the Jews. FFS. What does 'being a fascist mean' do you think?

However, I may be talking bollox.

I wouldn't say that being a fascist=having facsist ideas any more than that thinking about murdering the royal family makes me a murderer.

I'm sure Harry has got quite a different perspective on the media than you or I, to him its all a game, he's got fuck all to worry about for the rest of his life.

Next story, 'Harry goes to Vegas! Caught snorting cocaine off Danni Minogue's toesnails.'

as has been said upthread many times, these toffs dressing up and natives and colonials makes me want to meet a few of them down a dark alley with a tyre iron in my hand. utterly emetic, repulsive, disgusting.

Harry is a bit of a dick, he parties a lot, he fights with photographers. This makes him No1 tabloid-worthy royal. He should know better, but given the sensitivities of his elders (Phillip, Andy) it's hardly surprising that he is completely unaware of the impact of his actions.

I think the "months away from the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz" is relevant. Seems to me they've shoehorned in a war-related event to increase the offence factor.

I want to see Danni's toe snails.

Yes, it was really crap swastika wasn't it? Like something they'd show you how to make on Blue Peter with "sticky-backed plastic"

boo fucking hoo.

when i first read it i thought it said Nazi Desserts uniform, and entertained the idea that in display of their discipline the Nazi soldiers had an extra set of uniforms, and that they would actually all change clothes between their main meals and desserts.

I wish there were pictures of Wills as a lion. I wonder if his costume was a rubbish, if he was just wearing a kid's plastic mask or something.

er, xpost.

precious few villages to liquidate in the Egyptian desert, i guess.

The idea that Harry being too naive to understand how the British media works is a little hard to believe when you consider what happened to his mother. My suspicions are that he just doesn't give a shit.

Having said all that, he's a total moron for wearing a swastika and deserves whatever exposure the papers give the story. I think I agree he should go to Auschwitz too cos he clearly doesn't get it. Not sure how to fix the colonial issue. Even when he does visit commonwealth countries it's as a royal/special person.

Okay, yes that was badly phrased - of course the war mattered and i is important that we remember just how terrible the war and the Nazis were. I still don't believe Harry is a Nazi which is what people are getting at essentially. I mean it's as silly as saying that William actually wants to be a lion when he grows up. Remember lions also kill people and are still killing people every day! I just have issues with people who still get upset by conflicts which are essentially done and dusted. Obviously there are people who have terrible memories of the war, that goes without saying. But this is very different - it's FANCY DRESS - make believe.

It's all down to media hype really. How often does the average 20-something go out and get pissed, probably once or twice a week minimum? Still every six months there's a new picture of that piss-head Harry smoking a fag and drinking a pint so therefore he must surely be off the rails. And if you saw the behaviour and attitudes of the average squaddie on a night out in Colchester, I'm sure you'd agree that dressing up as a comedy Nazi is comparatively mild for a soldier on his night off.

(he once lent my mate's brother a tenner even though he didn't know him, which was nice)

exactly. Let's Blitz Harry. Achtung Surrounder.

heheh, they're probably at least THINKING about killing people every day...let us act now before it is too late and neutralise them now...

Yes, but -- not. If a friend of yours came to a party, would you be so sassy, dog latin? or would you think 'cunt'?

Why should I? There was a (fairly old) guy dressed up the same as Harry (except with a comedy 'tache etc) at the last Halloween party I went to and I thought it was pretty funny that someone his age could actually have a sense of humour about these things. I was quite sure he wasn't a fascist same as I was quite sure that the tatoo-ed scar on my neck wasn't real either.

I'm suprised that anyone thinks this is about "Is Harry a Nazi?". obviously he isn't, it's just a question as to whether the person third in line to the throne should be doing something so incredibly bone-headed.

by that logic, the holocaust is only an outrage because it was eventually reported.

No, because "that logic" neglects the fact that no one is actually harmed/offended by one royal twat dressing up as a Nazi until it is reported. Millions of people would have died in the Holocaust even if it had never been reported. Ditto Abu Ghraib, on a smaller scale. I mean, honestly...

HIM: "Do you know Port Glasgow?"
ME: "Yes"
HIM: "I have some family who live near there"
ME: "Well, as long as it's near Port Glasgow and not in it, 'cos it's a total dump"
HIM: "No, they don't live there I think they just own it"

Nice geezer tho

Put it this way - would it have been different if he'd dressed as one of the following:

Napoleon
Genghis Khan
A Crusader
A Zulu Warrior

??

^^Thrown in by the beeb to increase the "Bad Boy" quotient.

A 20 year old man drinking and smoking at a party is hardly worthy of note, unless it was followed by "Many Nazis were known to enjoy a schnapps and a ciggie after exterminating their daily Jew quota, once the gas had cleared away, of course".

He's kept out of public/expropriated funds ie he is PWNED by the public, so we have a Right To Know. If newspapers only reported on your basis, very little news would come out. No-one was harmed by Eric Clapton's views, so why report them. Cf most comments made by non-activist Nazis.

see also princess anne's shirty interviews, phillip's unbelievable gaffes, edward's comments that his reputation is low in the UK cos people 'are jealous of achievement' etc. etc.

xpost we go after him with torches and sticks

although it's not really all that far from that in real life.

None of this matters anyway because if the British populace doesn't change it's attitude and open their eyes to present reality they'll all be forcably sticking their asses skyward whilst facing Mecca praying their required daily prayers.

Y'know, just in case you ever think this place is the pits.

I think the position is technically known as taking it up the Gary.

WELL HAHAHAHAHA THEY'VE DONE A PRETTY SHITTY JOB COS THE ROYALS ARE ALL BASTARDS INNIT HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHHAHAHAHAHAH!!!

*slaps own thigh in self-congratulation

"sir, i know they are tight but these speedos are mandatory for an heir to the throne"

Ok too many one liners now.

ihttp://www.keithsarver.com/html/Photos/Austria/NaziLionWien.html

(I fear this link won't have worked properly, but still)

I mean, yes, most people nowadays aren't that bothered about children born out of wedlock, but more or less by definition the monarchy is a little old-fashioned about these things.

I am offended, however, that I have to pay taxes to fund the civil list and that there's such a thing as royalty.

Andrew, the eldest son born in wedlock would be the heir.

And he's not some random stupid celebrity, he's a part of the institution that I least want to be an element in the UK's constitution. I do find punk nazism offensive, yes. But he wasn't trying to cause offence, he's just dumb. What he represents is more offensive than what's in his head. But this incident demonstrates fundamentally why there's no reason for people to admire inherited wealth and privilege.

guardian today has this on the front page and about 10 pages of auschwitz survivor stories in G2... bad timing.

again both the BBC and Guardian are reporting this by saying that the Sun were reporting it which i find a bit cowardly.

xpost

point taken. i was thinking more about Siouxie-on-the-Grundy-show style swastika-wearing punks.

stevem - see also (the ironically named?) Little Britain.

It's hard to see this incident as anything other than insensitivity, stupidity, bad judgement, evidence of the arrogance of the royals. It's not evil. As far as I can tell, it was Harry's use of the swastika that really made it "news".

That's a bit unfair on Sham 69 really. They weren't Nazis at all, but a lot of NF wankers would go to their gigs and cause trouble which got them tarred with the same brush by the media. They ended up breaking up because of it.

(see stevem's already used this as an opportunity to take a stab at daily mail without reading it!)

As far as this guy knew, I was the receptionist. He wasn't very impressed. And I don't care. Cunts.

yeah, this is the real issue. as stated by one of our friends elsewhere, if you are being funded out of the public purse then you ought not to act in a manner likely to cause offence.

Ying ying - my life is also funded out of the public purse! this is problematic.

In a weird way, though, Harry is almost doing what he is paid for - the whole point of the Royals is to provide entertainment for oiks like us.

same with daily mail.. take the piss when it's being dumb, sure (and it happens a lot), but when people are just like going at it like "omg they spelt the word ROYAL wrong hahahahah pwned" (this is a hypothetical example), it takes the weight away when you laugh at something really dumb.

xpost to Stevem, obv. I think you're wrong, Steve.

ha it's a hypothetical example of the kind applied when the tabloids criticise Teh Grauniad...

(and i can't have a go at you each time you make a bad post cos i need to save it for the REALLY bad ones)

(KIDDING)

i don't know what i'm talking about anymore.

William would look way hotter in Nazi gear anyway.

In any case the theme of the party is definitely the Shameful thing here. I wonder who came up with it? (Madchen I can't find the BBC related articles you mention.)

What would be nice and juicy is a set of vox pops from party attendees about their views on Britain's colonial past. That would really give us something to get our teeth into.

Personally I see it as a chance for more conservative parties to bring up old ghosts and try to remind the world of the importance of our "proud monarchy".

I'm sure I'm not the only one in thinking that Harry's a bit of a chief in a lot of ways. I mean look, it's obvious he's taking the piss and trying to rankle the noses of the idiots who are going to get offended by such an (after all) harmless bit of fun. It's punk as fuck - I don't think a prince, no matter how "dim-witted" he appears to be goes out dressed in comedic Nazi regalia without thinking about the consequences.
The only statement he's making (if any - remember it's only a fancy dress party) is that he's a normal bloke who just happens to have been thrust onto a rather cruel world of incessant paparazzi since his birth while constantly being shown up by his so-called "well-brought-up" elders.

Did you mean like when I said "wogs are in fashion if you're a toff"? You're right, I could have worded that a bit better. But I wanted to illustrate the kind of off-hand racism that's much more prevalent than violence or discrimination. Certainly no glee intended.

If I'd bothered, I could have said: "I've seen that people in that social circle seem to enjoy dressing up as person whom they think it's amusing to deride and belittle because of their perceived victim status which they consider to be overstated and fail to recognise that they are causing offence; which they are doing first by directing their parodies and impersonations at particular ethnic, racial or national groups and second by being unabashed about the roles their caste and direct ancestors have taken in oppressing those groups in the past."

But I won't do it again, anyway.

xxpost I think part of the problem is Harry doesn't have a "station" in life. If there were a job he knew he'd get or if any job were open to him, he might behave like a dick so often. But the younger sons always do this kind of thing. After the army he could either be an ambassador-type (yeah right) or just live on a yacht in Monaco or Barbados for the rest of his life.

As for the left gleefully grabs any excuse to beat up on one of its favourite targets – it's a pretty good demonstration of why maintaining the monarchy is a silly idea. Why must there be this discussion every time a royal does something stupid? You tell me if you like having royalty.

haha, Gareth and Ally to thread! re: Fascist clothing is sexy

Surely he knew it would be offensive. I imagine that he made a very deliberate calculation; if I do A (wear a swastika) then B (media frenzy) will happen. He offended heaps of people, including living holocaust survivors and the thousands of living British citizens who lost loved-ones in WWII. Why? just for a kick. What a dick.

I imagine the kid's not a super genius, but why do you presume that he 'knew'? If he knew the row it would cause, would he have done it?

I think he must be a little more media savy than people are giving him credit for.

But I don't follow the royals, and I don't know much about his world, so I could be wrong.

I'm not telling you what to think Supercub. I'm just saying it's not as if Harry had expressed political beliefs or had adopted the Nazi motif as a permanent. It's make-believe, fancy-dress - you can buy these clothes in novelty shops in just about any high street. Yes, as a young prince it was VERY misguided but the kind of effect it has had upon things is completely out of proportion.

any 20 year old knows the tremendous power the swastika has as a symbol

Should this symbol STILL be making us tremble and giving into that power? Should we still be getting into international uproar about it? Did you know that Tory-leader Michael Howard is now using this incident to gain backing for his party since his own parents had to flee from the Nazis during the war? I don't doubt Supercub and his own dismay but on a bigger scale, this whole backlash seems so false - the ones who are complaining are the ones who are profitting from the incident. Another slow news day? The tabloids roar their demands for ANOTHER apology following Harry's previous written one. Howard's a boring unpopular cunt? Let's resurrect his family history and act all offended to get him more votes.

xpost is it still 'punk as fuck' if you issue a grovelling apology for your actions the day after? don't think i ever saw johnny rotten doing that.

You're contradicting yourself here. Firstly, I didn't mean "punk" as in mohawks and braces. Also, if we're able to forget punk ideals and attitudes then surely we should be able to let bygones like the second world war lie. Undoubtedly a major world event, the second world war to most, Harry included is now history - something to be studied and learnt from at school whereas current world atrocities are more relevant and important.
And yes, punks did a lot of idiotic things and offended a lot of people. I think if anything Harry is an angry young man who is sick of having every aspect of his private life brought under scrutiny by, in this case, his own peers and like all angry young men is perhaps self-destructive in sticking two fingers up at people in this way. "I'm going to this party dressed like this because every other bloke could do it at a private party so why can't I?" A silly rationale but perhaps understandable considering the kind of pressure he may feel at some points.
And no, getting drunk and smoking draw IS NOT rebellious - it's prefectly normal. It's also perfectly normal to make the odd mistake or do stupid things. It's not perfectly normal that every single time you make one of these mistakes that a thousand criticisms are going to rail down on you.
IMHO Harry makes for a better character because of this "normal-ness" rather than his robotically dull older brother who has about as much wit and raport as a piece of stiff card.

Fancy dress shops will supply this kind of thing and there are loads of old shops where you can buy wartime memorabilia and antiques.

This is going to be very hard to explain without sounding insensitive to the great loss and ongoing pain that has been left behind by the war but I believe that constantly bringing up terrible conflicts and still acting hurt and angry about something that was supposedly resolved over 50 years ago. Things like the orange marches, the "never forget" attitude of a lot of Americans over the 9/11 trauma - it means that old demons can never lie. It means we cannot go on and learn from past mistakes and leads ultimately to further anguish. And while it's true that it is important to preserve history, it is also important to remember to stop glorifying the past or to bear these kinds of grudges. The third Reich is no longer and while there are and always will be extreme-right wing attitudes in the world, I would like to see this particular chapter in history to be closed thank you as it has already caused enough problems. People being offended by just this kind of thing will only make matters worse.

It is possible to fight Nazism, whilst also be playing with Nazi imagery.

I don't think that wearing a hakenkreuz made Harry a better person, hell, far from it, but I don't think this is front page news, do you?

2. You say "we cannot go on and learn from past mistakes". Being as aware as you can about the past is the only way to learn, not treating it as an abstract singular and ancient event.

3. "Grudges": people aren't demonstrating anti-German feeling by disapproving of Harry wearing a swastika, they're wondering why he thinks Nazism isn't a big deal. And it is a big deal to several million people, even if not to you. Can you imagine what it's like for someone in my family, for instance, who escaped Germany months before the start of the war and spent her teenage years surrounded by swastikas, hatred and violence, to see a member of the royal family of her adopted country appropriating the imagery of the regime that killed her friends and family for a jape? I dare anyone to tell me she's the one in the wrong for being offended.

would this be just because of seeing the symbol again (and trivialised in this instance) or the combination of that and who is wearing it? that's the interesting thing - we never really learned what the Royals did during the war when we were at school, the roles they occupied in wartime, their opinions etc. but i suppose the older Jewish community in the UK probably retains some fondness for the monarchy?

You mean the old Queen Mum with her lovable Edwardian anti-Semitism and Edward VIII who, let's face it, was a Nazi

doubt it. uk public schools had separate houses for jews even in the thirties. for example.

True, and also not so true. I did state that of course there is ongoing consequences and strong feelings about the war. But if one has to get angry, don't get angry at a dumb kid at a fancy dress party. There's better things to get upset about. No one ever got killed because of someone wearing some clothes (Ken C, shush!). Swastikas don't kill people, Nazis do. It's the same as getting offended by rap lyrics or explicit cinema.

2. You say "we cannot go on and learn from past mistakes". Being as aware as you can about the past is the only way to learn, not treating it as an abstract singular and ancient event.

You can be aware and informed about history without agenda. Sadly though a lot of people don't realise this and this is why we still have wars that last thousands and thousands of years after the original incident.

if you want to properly do the comparison it would have been "gas chambers don't kill people, Nazis do" and suddently it doesn't sound all that decent.

but it's true that blingbling never killed anyone either.

In all fairness, no you can't, and we don't have wars lasting 'thousands of years after the original incident' either. This Eton-educated 20-year-old was not a 'dumb kid' either. It is indeed a bit like being offended by rap lyrics. Sometimes they are offensive. But it's also more serious than that. I wouldn't listen to a Nazi rapper, for example.

So... you're saying that political beliefs are hereditary?

doubt it. uk public schools had separate houses for jews even in the thirties. for example.

gah, yes i wasn't making an assumption on it hence writing in question form, because it does seem daft to take offence because of WHO is wearing it rather than just at what is being worn. there was another thread last year in which past racial/ethnic tensions in the UK were discussed and i know little of the grief and discrimination Jews continued to face in the UK after the war by certain sections of the majority.

The "dumb kid" statement was a figure of speech, unless of course you're saying that Prince Harry is actually the Fuhrer himself brought back from the dead.

And yes you do have wars lasting thousands of years - look at the middle east for proof of never-ending conflict over a fantastically long period of time that is now based around a pure and innate hatred of each other.

Rappers rap about violent and criminal behaviour yet most people know it's usually an act. I wouldn't listen to a Nazi rapper either but then Harry isn't a Nazi is he??

dog latin and Miles Finch

dog latin:
don't get angry at a dumb kid at a fancy dress party
Personally I'm not angry about Harry (see earlier posts). But as I pointed out, surely you can see why people do. And it's not for anyone else to say they have no right to be offended.

It's the same as getting offended by rap lyrics or explicit cinema.
It's not the same as those things which are different in themselves anyway. Anti-semitic/otherwise racist/homophobic lyrics are no less offensive if they're set to music. It's just that the audience should be aware of context and irony etc and be open to the possibility that the words aren't the views of the author. Wearing a swastika is basically taunting holocaust survivors. I don't think Harry realised that which is why I'm not so offended.

You can be aware and informed about history without agenda.
You can, kind of. Everyone has an agenda of one sort or another. I think Harry got his knowledge of Nazism from war films and thinks of Nazis as comedy baddies. If he had learnt anything at all about it at school it surely should have been that Nazism did genuinely lead to unprecedented suffering and death within living memory. I'm suspicious of the phrase "Learning From History" anyway.

political beliefs are hereditary?

No but he's pretty dumb for not knowing what kinds of issues this would raise considering his family's background.

but but this is a fancy dress right? surely that's some context and irony?? it's not like he's just randomly donning a nazi uniform buying fish and chips from a pub.

i mean, this guy just went to a party.

william sounds like a genius actually.. i mean it certain takes the heat off him not thinking of anything better than a stupid lion costume.

it doesn't mitigate it but i'm not comfortable with the idea of brushing aside rappers etc with the arguments before and not this. i think there are thought processes other than the a. and b. that you mentioned above.

he is more than a dumb kid, he is a symbol of a parasitical, arrogant, repulsive and jaw droppingly stupid caste of people we all pay for, and who steadily demonstrate that they are not worthy of that privilege. I think this is what the fuss is about.

Ken, amazingly, the average human being has the capacity to be worried about a number of issues at a time, it's not a fucking prioritised list. "When we tick off the war in Iraq, then it's time to move on to women's rights, but ONLY after we've sorted out traffic problems and not before we've cleared up the "why do assholes get the hot girls" debacle"

And also, even if the entire reaction to Harry is stupid or over-the-top, even if you take that fairly dubious idea as a for granted, this does not change the fact that the reaction is predictable.

Hence he should have known better. I am fairly sure, in life, you don't get a lot of leeway with Swastikas.

fucking hell. of course we should spend time thinking about it, I worry about this more than I worry about the fact that i got short changed 10p. but there are a lot of other things that worry me a lot more just now, and i'm glad that some people have so much time to get agitated over some guy wearing a swastika at a party and jesus wearing nappies being shown on tv.

yes he should have known better. who here doesn't agree with that?

... I feel a punk song coming on

I don't think I need to do anything but quote this sentence.

And perhaps point out that the only reason this thread has gone on so long is because some people seem to think ABSOLUTELY NOTHING should be said about the matter.

to reiterate i think that occassionally the royals do something that betrays the depth of their arrogance and repulsive stupidity, and for a while you are stung out of your inbuilt complacency and realise that not only is there no theoretical reason to support them, but that the current crop are actually extraordinarily obnoxious too. a lot of people all over the world currently seem to be feeling this way and surely that is worthy of discussion.

i'm just repeating myself though, so i'll leave it at that.

I was saying the idea of Harry choosing this costume was stupid.

good for the statscock.

Very obliquely: My gf's stepmother's mother was taken from the Lodz ghetto and sent to Auschwitz. Last summer she went back for the first time since '49 and I was struck by how much calmer about it she was than her kids. She still speaks Polish (better than Yiddish appparently) to other survivors she knows in New York so there wasn't a linguistic barrier and I can understand that for all the horror of the ghetto and the camp, she had fond memories of her childhood that have perhaps grown in power now that she's at the twilight of her life, but I was surprised that she could go without a kind of oppressive sense of dread or a gnawing sense of suspicion upon seeing old Poles. She told me that that's all there but not as powerful or frightening as it once was. For her kids, however, raised in the shadow of the greatest crime in the history of humanity, 'never forget' also means 'never allow the emotional intensity to fade'. To hold on to the emotional intensity or proximity of the horror of the holocaust has been a useful tool in making sure that people actually learn and care about it, but it has scarred my gf's stepmother and her brother somehow and I wonder if we can learn to remember more dispassionately.

It's interesting, it's difficult to think of actual visual images with such a massive power, perhaps I'm missing some but I can't really think of any at the moment.

the incident has prompted so many questions (am i offended? is it offensive? should other people be offended? who are they to say what he should and shouldn't do? WHY did he do this?! why is it important? what should happen now?) - these have been explored reasonably well in this thread.

http://www.windsorfineart.com/artists/durer/images/Crucifixion.jpg

sean carruthers to thread

http://www.maerkische-schweiz.com/kultur/gif/heartfield_x.jpg

their flag is less fearsome looking though without thinking about the horror behind it.

In my experience, no. Will doesn't have many black friends - don't think any went to his "African-themed" 21st 2 years back. There were about 3 in his year at Eton tho', so in *some* ways unsurprising.

The real reason Harry wore the costume?

"I have also written (NOT snorted) 1000 lines,been whipped by Dad 30 times and fagged around the whole of Highgate while the staff took the day off and turns to kick my sore red rump."

harry should have listened to charles (not his mate charlie)

One source said: "Charles is also anxious that Harry keeps a low profile in January as that is when he was supposed to be starting at Sandhurst.
"The worry is that with Chelsy around Harry will end up cavorting around and doing stupid things. Obviously that wouldn't look good when the reason he has postponed going to Sandhurst is because he has injured his knee."

...
..

A Royal insider said 20-year-old Harry and Chelsy, a student at Cape Town University, had had a "very relaxed time" when he visited her in South Africa last year....Harry's been told they will have to sleep in separate rooms and can't even have adjoining suites, which may become a bone of contention."

a bone of contention, god.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4178643.stm.

Much as I think Harry was an idiot (true to type) for waering the Nazi uniform and am amazed that he didn't think through the consequences, surely he should still be free to make the choice. Just because something is offensve doesn't necessarily mean it should be legislated against.

a swastika ban would make for a rather lame looking production of this.

don't forget that the nazis bogarted the swastika from some kind of pagan shit that came before, where it had no negative connotation whatsoever.

but i don't know what banning the symbol is going to achieve.

The swastika appears in art and design throughout human history, symbolising many different things — luck, Surya (the sun), Brahma, or the Hindu concept of samsara. In fact, the swastika is used primarily as a religious symbol by Hindus – it was first mentioned in the Vedas, the holy texts of Hinduism – but transferred to other Indic religions like Buddhism and Jainism. It also occurs in other Asian, European, and Native American cultures – sometimes as a simple geometrical motif, sometimes as a religious symbol. The almost universally positive meanings of the swastika were subverted in the early twentieth century when it was adopted as the emblem of the National Socialist German Workers Party. Since World War II, most Westerners see it as solely a fascist symbol, leading to incorrect assumptions about its pre-Nazi use and its use in other cultures."

Prince Harry caught on film calling Asian soldier 'Paki'

"the appalling jibe."

So what IS he supposed so be or do? If he would only talk like his grandmother the population would call him an out-of-touch stuck up toff, and when he does say what, oh, 80% of the population says, it's appalling and shocking and blablabla? Jeez, Britain is confusing.

clue: it's not a harmless abbreviation of 'pakistani'

pakistanm

we are all prince harry now

I R the worst attempted troll ever :-(

A Clarence House spokesman has said that in future the Prince has promised to use language less likely to cause offence to people as he's "bombing the fuck out of their village."

"It was just soldiers larking around and Paki was a nickname they call called this guy. It wasn't in the least bit racist."

http://news.sky.com/sky-news/content/StaticFile/jpg/2009/Jan/Week2/15200957.jpg

jesus bbc stfu about this already

maybe it's jpg graininess but that picture makes camouflage look REALLY effective

I don't get it, why would someone take a picture of a floating cigarette?