This is The Thread for the Star Wars III Leak

it's really that moving? awesome!

www.vcdquality.org

But I would probably wait until the second or third version unless someone like TUN or VideoCD really pulls out the stops - the first will probably be a very shaky "Cam" with sound recorded from the camcoders mic, but wait a few days or weeks if you're unlucky) and you'll get a "Telesync" - or even better a "Telecine" - with rock-solid picture and directly dubbed DTS sound.

-- N_RQ (bl0cke...), May 12th, 2005.

Exactly, I saw episode II for nearly the same deal (a dollar theater in Omaha) and still felt ripped off. Well maybe that Yoda fight was worth a dollar, but the rest certainly wasn't.

You keep forgetting a decent download will mean you can burn to DVD and then just watch with friends, booze, and substances.

http://film.guardian.co.uk/News_Story/Critic_Review/Guardian_Film_of_the_week/0,4267,1482359,00.html

(note: I haven't seen Star Wars in ages, don't really care about it, and have never seen any of the prequels)

Seems like a classic case of wanting to like something far more than you actually do.

I do think that he's trying to be a big ol' fanboy, I guess to prove he's still young or something. It's a shame that he has to latch on to bad movies to prove that.

http://filmforce.ign.com/starwars/articles/613/613366p1.html

"The idea is that over time, there were new clone strains introduced, and then they even conscripted guys to be Storm Troopers. So it's not just purely clones: It started out as clones, but then it got diluted over the years as they found out they could shanghai guys [more cheaply] than they could build clones."

Jesus H., you realize Kevin Smith is going to direct an episode where a Star Wars variant of Jay and Silent Bob get wackily recruited by the stormtroopers OH THE HILARITY. Maybe Darth cuts their heads off.

xpost

This statement is either slightly wrong, or dripping with gooey, delicious sarcasm. I honestly can't tell which.

And about Jar-Jar Binks: "He goes back to Naboo and he's a representative. He probably stays on the council, he's probably in the senate, because it becomes completely worthless. Senators are just for show, which they talk about in Episode IV. Actually, in Episode IV they get disbanded, so Jar Jar probably goes home to his wife and kids."
FUCK! HE DOESN'T DIE?

What, you want to tie down Portman and force...uh, never mind.
Use the force on her and Carrie Fisher and some of those babe-liens seen elsewhere in the trilogies?

What's wrong with it? I'm talking about the completion of the Star Wars saga, which despite overall atrocious dialogue, frequent bad acting, pandering to Burger King, and Jar Jar Binks, is nothing less than a cultural colossus that has changed the way movies are made, marketed and even watched.

(and the first four, if not five, were, at one point, on film)

FWIW, it was pretty much Lucas and his crew who went that route rather than anonymous 'studio execs,' thus the famous gaffe on the part of Fox where all the licensing/merchandising rights, plus all the sequel rights, were acquired by Lucas before Star Wars came out, while negotiations via Lucasfilm on the licensing and crossmarketing efforts and so forth were well under way by the film's release. Now if you want to call Lucas a horrible person with bad ideas, feel free. ;-)

The young Obi-Wan Kenobi is not, I hasten to add, the most nauseating figure onscreen; nor is R2-D2 or even C-3PO, although I still fail to understand why I should have been expected to waste twenty-five years of my life following the progress of a beeping trash can and a gay, gold-plated Jeeves.

No, the one who gets me is Yoda. May I take the opportunity to enter a brief plea in favor of his extermination? Any educated moviegoer would know what to do, having watched that helpful sequence in “Gremlins” when a small, sage-colored beastie is fed into an electric blender. ... Also, while we’re here, what’s with the screwy syntax? Deepest mind in the galaxy, apparently, and you still express yourself like a day-tripper with a dog-eared phrase book. “I hope right you are.” Break me a fucking give.

LLO

SEE YOU IN HELL, CANDY BOYS.

In the end, Anakin *does* bring balance to the force. He kills the emperor and saves Luke, who couldn't have dealt with the emperor alone. I thought that was one of the few good things about the continuity between episodes 1-3 and 4-6; Anakin is given the mantle of a messiah, and, in the end, he finally rises to the task. He is, of course, a tainted messiah, but more interesting because of that; he is corrupted, but when faced with the final choice, manages to redeem himself and everyone else as well.

Be careful...if too many people harp on this theme Lucas will go back AGAIN and digitally repaint Episodes IV-VI for continuity.

Dude, c'mon, it's three days away, go nuts. (Or do you have to wait for your review to run officially first?)

What we need is, "Star Wars Septalogy: The Special Hair Edition".

i dunno. you sound like somebody who saw the movies and isn't a total moron. (like the person that wrote that article.)

m.

In this sense?

http://www.swanshadow.com/images/gettutored.gif

If they can retouch the special effects to match today's sensibilities, why not the hairdos? They could do that once in every five years, or whenever decency so requires...

I mean, look at him! Dude looks like a lady!

i will say no more... but i will post a link to it at 12:01AM on wednesday/thursday.

Q: what's the innate sensibility that lets some people know a sith lord is around?
A: vay-dar!

but yeah, we're going wednesday night. it'll be fun from a geek fest sort of pov. bring the magic cards. chill. crack bad buffy jokes. anticipate serenity. etc. they should suspend open container laws so we can get smashed while we wait.
m.

Yeah, I laced it with midichlorians.

Sith. What kind of a word is that? Sith. It sounds to me like the noise that emerges when you block one nostril and blow through the other, but to George Lucas it is a name that trumpets evil... Here are some Lucas inventions: Palpatine. Sidious. Mace Windu. (Isn’t that something you spray on colicky babies?) Bail Organa. And Sith.

He's right, of course. What's worse is that these are precisely the kind of words I used to make up when I was about six. Goofy, nonsense words, now delivered with the weight of the world behind them. There's something so hilariously arrogant and so pathetically nerdy about that. "Sith. No, really. It's scary. No, just trust me. Shut up! Don't laugh at me!"

All of it is purely ridiculous, of course, from the silly words to the thinly veiled racial caricatures of characters (they're in all the movies) to the... god... midichlorians. There's something not only witless about all of it, but in fact unimaginative, not to mention repetitive. The Star Wars universe without Han Solo is a stuffy, humorless treadmill that teaches us nothing, has no weight, no reason to exist, is not much fun, and is not even good spectacle anymore.

"Little jazz riffs," eh, George? I'm thinking of Ferris Bueller. "Never had one lesson!"

I hate Star Wars.

A friend projected the original and Empire in his backyard on Saturday along with BBQ. Tres fun.

Anyway, it's the last waltz, I guess. Going to see a late-night showing Thursday in Leicester Square. As far as I'm concerned, this sorta is like the end of my adolescence. I doubt I'm gonna ever be into blockbusters much again.

Han Solo! Yes! He is sorely missed. Without him, there's not much comedy left. Those racial charicature aliens, which are meant to provide humour, are all deeply offensive.

And the whole, "C'mon, it's a kid's movie" argument doesn't wash. There are good kids movies. In fact, there are great ones -- Miyazaki makes kids movies that are as dark, weird, whimsical, and complicated as being a kid is. Absolute good being faced with absolute evil isn't very interesting. Even kids are smarter than that, if you let them be.

Movie this year I'd most like to take a kid to see: Kung Fu Hustle. Man, if I were 12, that would be the greatest movie ever made.

Thus we would skip all that "original version" nonsense, go straight to the "Special Edition", and in place of Yoda's "dialogue" we would have the sound of a ringtone artiste impersonating a two-stroke moped engine.

again, he has an idea for plots and story, just don't let him behind the camera and don't let him do the script.

also, i'm disappointed that Lego Star Wars does not have the jedi with tittays.

-- Ned Raggett (ne...), May 17th, 2005.

Star Wars is laughable now, but when I was a pre-adolescent I rediscovered it a few years before the first wave special edition craze came and went. We rented the movies and in my memory the trilogy was all a blur, cos I must have been like 3 or 4 when i saw "Jedi" in the theater and the others on tv and video rentals, all the big scenes were stuck together and i was like "Oh yeah, that awesome space battle" when rewatching Star Wars, "Oh yeah, Yoda and the walkers" when rewatching Empire, "Oh yeah, that speeder chase through the woods" when rewatching Jedi, etc. etc.

The new Star Wars are more or less 4-wave nostalgia for me by now cos of all the repackaging, so my childhood is not being stolen at all. I'm old enough to know how marketing works, so it doesn't really phase me. I can still look back to that time when I was 7 or so and mom was making lentil soup while I begged her to let me watch Empire on tv during dinner. It was raining outside and I still hadn't gotten into videogames yet nor He-Man toys, so this was my entire world.

Watching THX and American Graffiti, it seems to me that Lucas isn't all that bad a director, in fact he has the opportunity to be an awesome one, but I think he waited far too long to make the new ones.

One of the main problems with the new ones (besides the obvious acting and writing) is that nothing is given any room to breathe; we see a really complicated landscape filled with new creatures and vehicles and all that, but it wizzes by faster than a toy commercial.

My favorite scenes from the originals (and they are the scenes that will always impress me and spark my imagination) were not shots of spaceships flying busily and all that, they were the artsy bits. Luke standing outside his house in the desert with the twinkling lights from robots around him, looking at the distant twin suns, the shot saturated with purples and oranges and dark browns. When William's majestic score swoops in i think "holy shit, farm boys with robots wanting to be magic knights in outer space" and its just so damn cool to think about.

Another scene I always liked was when Luke and Yoda say their goodbyes in Empire, Obi-Wan as a wizened glowing blue ghost in an alien swamp talking to a wizard that is so old his ears are wider than his head is tall. He mysteriously says "no...there is another" as the ship takes off and we see him light up from blue to red while looking up at the sky. I don't know, maybe it was all this sense of wonder; I think it was something the characters experienced at the same time the audience did and this is why it meant so much to alot of people. The CGI in the new ones is so busy and backdropy, it's like the characters take this universe for granted, and naturally so do we.

and i know how stupid that sounds, when we're talking Star Wars

hardly! you're saying the first trilogy wasn't meant as kid-oriented? obviously lucas is being defensive about his own crappy writing and inability to direct actors, but still.

again, he has an idea for plots and story, just don't let him behind the camera and don't let him do the script.

agreed.

"HOLD ME, ANAKIN! HOLD ME AS YOU DID BY THE LAKE ON NABOO!"

Hyuk hyuk. :-) It's going to make all the death and dying sweeter.

"The dark side of the Force is telling me you have to die for your use of language!"

Empire wasn't, tho half of Jedi was...

I'M PSYCHED.

MOTHERFUCKERS.

Empire say that Lucas 'fucks up' the final Vader scenes somewhat but apparently the opening battles and Vader's 'birth' really are beautiful, I'm gonna love seeing it and enjoy much of it without fail.

Hope you're all looking forward to my desperate apologetic enthusiastic thoughts in 24 hours time...

could there be a more freudian image?

http://img285.echo.cx/img285/3730/aaylala2pg.jpg

I looked at the video sample and it looked reasonable, but not excellent. I'm downloading it at home at the moment - but I'll probably watch it in the Cinema first.

hxxp://www.g082.green.fastwebserver.de/sith.00.avi

So where's this legendary s1ocki demolition? I MUST KNOW.

http://www.montrealmirror.com/2005/051905/film2.html

"...Lucas totally cops out of the one truly disturbing moment the movie could have had."

this film put such a bad taste in my mouth for all things Star Wars I don't even feel like putting my Lego AT-AT back together (it had to be dismantled for a change of address). Kids would sleep through most of this movie, why give it PG-13? Nothing HAPPENS. It's AWFUL. S1ocki's review basically OTM but honestly I can't figure out why Lucas would even WRITE IN Anakin murdering a bunch of children (oh wait I mean YOUNGLINGS what the fuck kind of word is that, I guess Jett Lucas objects to being referred to as a "child") if he wasn't going to DO ANYTHING with it.

I have no problem spoiling every single event in this movie for everyone, it's nothing anybody needs to watch, just go see Plan 9 instead. Seriously, when he stomps out of his restraints in his new, mean-looking-in-1977 body, gets the bad news about his SECRET WIFE and screams "NOOOOO!!!" it's like he's trying to do some Tarantino homage to the worst film moments of all time.

Fucking horrid! Awful! Shit! Unequivocally the worst film I have ever seen and I had really low expectations to begin with. It's like Lucas was standing there YELLING at his cast to PHONE IT IN!!! TOO HUMAN, TOO EXCITING, TOO BELIEVABLE!! PHONE IT IN!!! I WROTE THIS SCRIPT, IT SUCKS SHIT! NOW ACT LIKE YOU COULDN'T CARE LESS!!

Also worst pacing EVER. Guy is DETERMINED to be forgotten in 20 years time. MUST... RUIN... LEGACY...

SO BAD

LAME

"look like E.T., i may. phone home will i NOT!" *and then he leaps flips and SLASHBURNFIZZKONK!!! and kills a dude*

might as well have been a line, anyways. jaysus keerist. "Noooooooo!" i nearly died.

SHALLOW GRAVE!!!

i had fun.

visually great on some points, but there was some icky cgi here and there...

i was amused at the smallish looking darth vader that emerges at the end. i mean, our first impression of darth in anh is of him as this HUGE tail kickin machine man. and for some reason, he just looked wimpy small... (rick moranis guest star?)

chewy's part was lame. he did nothing to serve any kind of plot. in fact, his presence damaged continuity. bah.

eps 1-3 definitely could've used a couple more non jedi characters that were good guys and cool. similar to han solo, lando, chewie, etc. it's an army of clones and stiff jedi dudes. not enough life. like their apartment, it just seems devoid of personality. it's all dryish dialogue and lightsabers. where's the banter? where's the holographic chess? the bad lounge music? where's the real display of magic/chemistry with anakin and padme? (like han and leia)

i guess in trade we got super jedis and high stakes political manuevering.

the event itself was more significant. hangin with geek buddies. mindless nitpicks. the true fans with their costumes. the morning after with more mindless nitpicks. i'm lovin the "anakin is the emperor's new butt boy" jokes. "annie, i dropped my light saber, can you BEND OVER and pick it up for me?"
m.

Andrew: The difference is that Rebel, Racer and Rocket are spelled correctly, and kind of punk rock, like Guitar Wolf steez. Jett is a stupid spelling of a word that can also be used to describe the primary mechanism of a bidet.

omg... how general sidious is killed... did that not seem like, "oh, okay dude, now shoot the boss at the end of this level right here... that's where you'll damage him."

m.

Oh well, only another month for this: Completely Optimistic Batman Begins Anticipation Thread

lot of kids went last night to see it but i had better things to do. maybe see it this weekend tho.

Fuck you, George.

This is the same kind of trivia as me knowing that Pikachu's pokemon species evolves into "Raichu," worthless awful knowledge clogging portions of my brain that could be used for clever, useful stuff like foreign language vocabulary words but NO, MY MISSION IS TO RECALL EVERYTHING THAT IS FUCKING DUMB.

m.

It's under review.

At least it's not asking if I'm the Gatekeeper.

WICKED AWESOME

OH YOU BROUGHT BACK THE TRAGEDY ALL RIGHT!

Violence commencing in 3... 2...

do you live under a rock?
m.

I'm definitely getting more sold on it now, if only because some of the poster art really looks good I admit...

that's a different system...

Full-on TI dijection systems still don't look right, though. Large areas of any flat color (that is not black) reveal the true pixelly nature of the beast. Blue skies look particularly computer-y.

"Don't try it!"

either that or "I can't watch any more of this"

both kenobi.

anyway, it was hardly "one of the worst movies ever made" (what is about star wars that provokes such extreme reactions? is it the hype-to-quality ratio? the fanboys?). i had a good two hours, now i'm home, and i'm gonna make myself some kraft macaroni and cheese. this is latebloomer, last survivor of the starship nostromo, signing off.

I actually thought Grievous was/is Darth Maul -- all that happened was that he got cut in half...

I have no idea if you're being sarcastic or not.

totally otm! it was cheap

Actually, no. They have to send a film print as well as a backup. In fact, they run the film print simultaneously with the lamps off, so that in the event of any problem in the digi pipeline, they can continue to run the film more or less continuously.

The digital audio systems also have a failsafe fallback to the optical sound track, but it is much easier, since the digital signal is either on the film itself or on specially formatted CDs. If there is any significant signal problem that is continuous, the processors automatically switch almost seamlessly to the analog tracks until they can revert to a steady digital signal.

With image this is more of a problem because you can't configure it in any way to automatically switch between the two or maintain exact sync. So it's a bit sloppy, but at least it ensures that you will actually see the film.

Overall, though, it makes the costs much higher, since you need to transport a film print AND send a digital copy which presumably is very valuable.

anyway, it was hardly "one of the worst movies ever made" (what is about star wars that provokes such extreme reactions? is it the hype-to-quality ratio? the fanboys?). i had a good two hours, now i'm home, and i'm gonna make myself some kraft macaroni and cheese. this is latebloomer, last survivor of the starship nostromo, signing off.

Pretty much OTM. I managed to see it twice today (my mother's a sci-fi freak and my brother didn't see the midnight viewing like we did) and it was actually better the second time around if you can believe that. However, I think the cardboard acting is purposeful and it's silly that anyone would complain about it; Jedis are supposed to be emotionless and the many Imperial characters are puppets (in the figurative, literal, and political senses). Anakin's a self-absorbed whiner that's lost without mama; he's supposed to be childish and wooden and his relationship with Padme is supposed to be on a weak foundation with their interests in each other displayed through feeble attempts at communication. We can forgive Annie for being so whiny (even when he's finally costumed as Vader he's still that way) -- in a matter of years he'll suck it all up and will be saying things like "Now the circle is complete." He is admittedly pretty menacing in this film when he shuts up.

Ian McDiarmid was splendid. He was half of what made this film enjoyable.

What if Anakin was actually Annie from Norway?

"this is WHERE the fun BEGINS"

This also assumes a high adoption rate of digital projection. Which is going much slower than digital sound. (And the analog tracks not only are still around, but have recently been upgraded to better-quality cyan backgrounds.)

The Fuckin' VIDEO GAME was boring. I quit after three boards.
That line on 42nd street? Still there the next day.

Yup.

Just got back from seeing it. Slocki and Tombot's points of view in particular I can perfectly understand and god love 'em for it. But you know what I thought?

Fucking. Awesome.

Yeah, I'd ditch or rewrite some lines. Yup, I'd cut back on some scenes for pace. Yes, there should never ever be a line where someone goes "NOOOOOOOOOO!" to the heavens. Tsk.

But I could feel my heart racing during the opening sequence and as the film's second half kicked into high and beyond, I was losing myself in the sheer detail of the presentation throughout, the music was working far more effectively throughout than I imagined (ref. in particular the Order 66 montage), and above all I got what I wanted, machinations played out, sorrow, blood, doom and death.

So it isn't Kurosawa's Ran when a coterie of maidens runs forward to defend their castle only to be slaughtered brutally by the guns. So it isn't All Quiet on the Western Front's exquisite monochrome railing against the stupidity of war. So it isn't The Lord of the Rings -- and good thing too because I think comparing them ultimately is apples and oranges. And true -- so it isn't something that the six year old who saw Star Wars back in 1977 would have fully understood, grasped at, maybe even cared about, not when the original film worked so well as it did, its perfect self-contained simplicities and references to a larger structure unclear probably even to its creator suggesting something broader than could be realized. But my memories of that ship arcing in overhead to start it all remain intact and somehow 28 years later this all felt...right.

To my surprise and delight, I loved it. I'll happily see it again. And I'll know when to run for popcorn or bathroom breaks too, that never hurts. ;-)

i mean, ive never once thought i was going to CRY after seeing a star wars film, but i still feel like i might. the lines are garbage in some places, but the over all emotion of the story kinda carries them, at least i think so.

Just fucking fantastic, a wonderfully nerdy but serious combination of the previous star wars movies, hamlet, and frankenstien. i think you could make the argument that its the best in the series and not be laughed out of the room. (of course, Empire is still best, but this is close, at least in the same ballpark)

could you take someone, totally unknowledgable of star wars, sit them down and have them watch episodes one to six, and reasonably expect to have a fan afterwards?

WHERE THE FUCK DID GREIVOUS COME FROM. PLOT HOLES ABOUND.

All the criticisms above about script and acting apply, but I still found most of it genuinely thrilling. My biggest criticism would be that the pacing drops off considerably at points, and Anakin's sudden embrace of the dark side feels much too quick. Also, the makeup (read: cheap Halloween mask) that they slap on Palpatine when he becomes the Emperor was laughable, and really detracted from that whole sequence for me.

Otherwise, I loved it. The opening is tremendously exciting, and the build up to Palpatine's seizure of power really felt like impending doom - and the Order 66 sequence was just stunning. All the auxiliary detail really worked (Obi-Wan's yowling lizard steed, the reappearance of the Rebel Blockade Runner), just a shame the Wookiees didn't get more of a look in.

And despite (or probably because of) the shamelessly manipulative dual-sunset on Tatooine, by the end I really felt like Lucas had done the best he could to link the five-year old me who saw it in 1977 to the one who watched it last night. He's dropped a bollock along the way on numerous occasions, but I've really enjoyed the ride.

- The opening shots and space battle
- R2 trying to hide and kicking droid ass
- Grievous with four lightsabres
- "Good relations with the Wookiees I have" - there were SOME cute lines that reminded of IV-VI (Anakin's "This is where the fun begins" is echoed by Solo in A New Hope let's not forget, just a shame that Anakin couldn't deliver it as well)
- Palpatine generally
- The 'killing the Jedis off' sequence
- Yoda taking out the two Imperial Guards, battling Palps and then crawling through that duct - can't really fault this CGI
- Getting Captain Antilles and Moff Tarkin in there, Tarkin looked particuarly excellent for the FIVE SECONDS he was on screen
- Palpatine steadily looking more and more like The Emperor - perfect continuity here

- Vader's "NOOOOOOOOOO" I actually found hilarious if utterly inappropriate, but this is saved by how much I laughed. It felt like a feelgood movie at this point because of the 'reunion' of associations and the joining of dots.

The Bad:
- Weak scenes with Christopher Lee, under-used here
- The Palpatine rescue scene seemed a bit lifeless, where was the music?
- Grievous the rest of the time
- Padme
- Under-used Chewbacca
- More DYS than I expected in the closing sequences, rushed and packed too much in
- The Droid voices
- The English Jedi kid (would've liked to have seen the 'youngling' scene handled more like the evacuation of the kids in X-Men 2)

All other bad bits (v bad script for the most part, monotone Anakin) I expected so not so fussed.

The Ugly:
I was a bit disappointed about Vader's transformation not being longer and darker (ala Robocop) but then remembered it's a PG13 or whatever, and there's only so much you can do as a result.
Babies
Grievous's accent - I half expected him to bellow "FOKKIN VOODOO MAGIC MAHN" at one point

Agree with JA that this ended up NOT surpassing Attack Of The Clones but need to rewatch already.

yes, if they were 'target audience' i.e. A CHILD

both kenobi.

OTFM. The first line I burst out laughing at and then looked around the cinema confused at why no-one else was roffling. Then 'uh, oh yeah, never mind'.

Clearly this is a flaw. ;-)

who on earth was that (ahem) "youngling" who spoke. didn't everyone just want to bellow "OH KILL HIM! KILL HIM NOW!" (or strike out with your anger)

No purple dildo in the detention chamber, tho.

didn't everyone just want to bellow "OH KILL HIM! KILL HIM NOW!" (or strike out with your anger)

Oh no. See, I had faith he was about to be killed right then and there.

"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO....wait a minute, YES"

"NNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"

...at the end, the Emperor tells the newly suited DV what he told him about Padme. Surely the whole USP of the Dark Side, and what really clinched it for Anakin, was that he could save Padme from dying in childbirth.

So by telling him what he told him, didn't he basically renege on the promise of the powers that the dark side could give him? And why therefore didn't DV go mentalist and slap the emperor's rubber chops - "you promised me she would live" etc.

Surely it would have been in the Emperor's interest to tell DV that Kenobi did it?

If that point could be explained to me, at least I could get on with some work.

Whoever said that the Directors Cut should be 40 minutes shorter is correct. Less yacking, more fighting! The CGI was great - it was only when someone mentioned here that I remmebered that Yoda was CGI.

However, the really bad script (I mean, so bad) meant that a mediocre film was pulled from the jaws of goodness. Saying that, worth £7.

It's kinda unfair to rag on the original trilogy for pedestrian writing AND acting; how good a performer do you NEED to play Luke or Leia? The reason Harrison Ford was the only superstar made by SW is he played a recognizable Hollywood archetype -- the Gable/Bogart soldier of fortune with a heart of gold -- and breathed life into pulp material. *HE* changed the famed Solo line "I know" from "I love you too" (and sold it the way Bogey could sell "The Germans wore brown, you wore blue").

I have a feeling if I overthink that one my head will explode (deservedly, for overthinking it). I did wonder about it as well but I think the answer can be seen in that sly smile of satisfaction that the Emperor gives behind Vader's back as he breaks free from the restraints. A kind of a "Oh good, this is *exactly* what I wanted" look -- if the idea is to further entrap/enslave you via attachments to things/people, then thanks to the Emperor's revelation Anakin rides one hell of a guilt complex and basically slides further into the pit.

*******

******

ok did any of you sith-lovers find it just a little bit cheap that padme dies of heartbreak?! didn't you think it would be 10000x more effective if lucas had been gutsy enough to have anakin actually kill her himself?

*****

It's kinda antiseptic.

(I should say I was bled myself yesterday, this is because I gave blood at the Red Cross donation bus parked next to the line -- fine idea, that! But I found out I was the fourteenth and last donator from everyone who had been in the line for the entire day, which numbered many times more than fourteen. What selfish pricks!)

Meanwhile, what kind of wookie planet is it where they don't show older Wookies getting off on Diahann Carroll I ASK YOU?

Hooray!

It's not only dramatically suspect it screws up the continuity.

"Do you remember your mother...your REAL mother?"

"She was kind, beautiful...but sad. Keep in mind I was only ten seconds old so my impressions were kinda quick."

"Hey that's not fair, *I* was born first and I don't remember her at all!"

"Yeah, whatever."

Well the implication was that droid armies were everywhere fighting on all fronts yadda yadda yah refer to the Tartakovsky Clone Wars cartoons. So the wookies were getting a bit of a beatdown and needed some reinforcements. Who knows, maybe shed Wookie hairs are a major resource the Jedi needed to weave Yoda's tunics (which explains how he knew them so well).

I would have thought that Guilt was not a requisite for a trip to the Dark Side. Quite the opposite in fact - you could say that any Guilt he feels might only explain the residual good in him.

I don't see why the Emperor would want to encourage feelings of guilt. Feelings of anger, jealousy and revenge encouraged must be him in the. Guilt is merely a path to the Good Side. Or the Light Side. What is it called?

What was wrong with him, by the way?

also i thought obi-wan on the bouncing salamander looked really bad...

Hehehe. I wanted to bring it up partially because it struck me your impressions of both were the same! :-)

does it make the first 2 movies better in retrospect? does it justify them?

Let me put it this way -- like I said above, the recent films aren't The Lord of the Rings, which send me and then some. I've *definitely* watched them much more than I and II (I think the last time I saw either was, in fact, three years ago). So rewatching those two again over this week just to refresh was good partially because I could look at them with a more distanced eye, pick out what I enjoyed from them (and also get surprised at points, Liam Neeson's doing a lot of good but very quiet physical acting in his part that I hadn't fully appreciated before -- and which I'm willing to bet was all his doing rather than anything George might have suggested), and use that as a lead-up for where I hoped Sith might go -- namely, to say it again, machinations/blood/doom/death. On that front, mission accomplished, so the first two films do have their place.

i liked the four lightsabers in theory, but did anyone really feel this guy URGENTLY needed to get it? i had no idea who he was!

He should have been introduced like Dooku in II.

What was wrong with him, by the way?

Apparently he's a bit Vaderlike ie was an organic life-form personage who was reduced to bits and reconstructed. The cough must have been the personalized feature introduced during the order process (creating robotic phelgm as well costs too much).

the salamander did feel like it slid around too much. it's funny, as CGI insane as this movie was, there were several really low points for the CGI. i mean, the real heads + cgi bodies? OUCH.

m.

Some parts were well made, others weren't. I guess if you can't give a confident 'yes' and not think about several immediate flaws then no it's not a well-made film.

was it well acted, written, and directed? do you think george lucas is a good director?

On the whole, again, no. And I don't think Lucas is a good director.

None of this really seems as important as it 'should do' though. I mean, it obviously hasn't totally killed it for me like it has for you. And not because one of us cares more about Star Wars, just because one of us cares more about good acting/writing/directing according to the definition they recognise. But I will say I don't think Lucas has completely betrayed anything or anyone here, and most haters still seem to be working under the belief that there aren't big problems with episodes IV and V (I've never been satsified with how rushed the first half an hour of ESB seems, and the final stages of ROTS are no worse than what Kershner did there - there's just too much ground to cover in both cases, but it doesn't RUIN it completely).

"HOLD me...HOLD me, like you did by the lake on Naboooo...". Entire theatre cracks up.

Conundrum: talking about the "First Galactic Empire" implies there will be a second.

x-post, argh. What a disappointment.

My Jar-Jar theory (heaven help me for using that phrase even slightly seriously):

Lucas 1997: "Hmm...if it's a sorta goofy character but with a good heart, and if we keep him fairly central through the remaining films, then when Anakin kills him off it'll show just how awful he is."

Lucas 2000: "Let me rethink this."

I'm actually wondering how much they paid Keisha Castle-Hughes from Whale Rider to appear for 2 seconds in this one.

I didn't even notice Jar Jar was in this one until my friend pointed it out to me later. Gah.

Oh, I liked it. Those guys always seemed pompous, even for the Empire. ;-)

I'm actually wondering how much they paid Keisha Castle-Hughes from Whale Rider to appear for 2 seconds in this one.

Hahah, you caught that too -- I only noticed her name in the end credits and went "Er?" Then I thought back and went, "Oh yeah..."

m.

Can I just note how great this comment of Sven's is?

Seriously though...Grievous? What a crap name. And I pity Mr. Gunray that his mum chose to name him Newt.

"Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!"

Sorry, had to say it.

When Rick McCallum is your right hand man, quality control is not job 1.

"On second thought, I'm thinking this is a bad idea, Rick."

"No George it's one of the most *amazing* ideas I've *ever* seen."

"Er, okay." (to self: "Man, why did I screw things up with Gary again?")

I can't imagine anybody NOT being on our side here

OTM. I'll be called an elitist, I guess, but I cannot fathom the mind that thinks this is a good movie.

I want to be in that theater. The girl next to me shushed me for snickering through the climactic Anakin/whatshername dialogue. She was shreiking and hamming and he was glowering and the tower of crap was getting higher and higher and... what? This isn't funny to you? This is a fucking train wreck you're witnessing here, lady! Laugh that you may not cry!

I loved that too, favourite scene of the movie (that isn't unintentionally hilarious).

Also, is Natalie Portman not the most annoying person in this movie? Talk about shitty acting. Hayden Christensen had some pretty bad moments too but was mostly fine, while every scene involving Padme was simply ruined by Portman's desperate, blubbering over-acting (last seen in Closer).

I started laughing every time Portman came on screen. So terrible.

Best line (unironic, sort of): Yoda's last, hard, funny-syntaxed line before getting into it with Palpatine (someone remember this!!!)

Overall, I thought the movie was hugely entertaining and hugely bad. Mostly it was just huge. It was about as subtle as a 4 year-old.

"THIS IS FUCKING SAD!" "THIS IS FUCKING EXCITING!"

It wasn't until they got to the volcano planet that I really got into it. Why? Because they cut out all the talking and turned that whole sequence into a massive operatic music video which, imho, could have been the whole movie. Just cut off the first bit, we get the idea.

Iain McDiarmid was good however; has he actually been in much else...?

McDiarmid's career has mostly been on the stage with various character roles.

I'm a little surprised so many people seem to like it so much

*shrug* People like stuff I don't but while I might complain about the objects of attention I don't question or act surprised why people's tastes differ from mine. In this case, you can say what you want but like I said above, I was thrilled, gripped by the details, etc. Can't come back in time and tell me otherwise! ;-)

http://www.ianmcdiarmid.com/

I like the guy a lot!

-About 20 seconds into the Order 66 scene I started getting the coda to "Layla" running through my head.

-The "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOomg" scene would've probably been pretty cool if he'd just yelled "AAAAAAAAAAAAGHHHHHHHHHH" instead, then have the shit-starts-exploding-from-the-Force bit. (James Earl sounds weird weird weird going through still-whiny-Vader dialogue.)

-The Wookiees got shortchanged big time.

But, I must say out of films I've seen recently, I far prefer the new "Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy" to this, as it's much more my sort of thing, in its atmosphere and philosophy (Monty Python-meets-Dr Who, as opposed to Star Wars' "Shane"-in-space, which works well for the original trilogy, I must say).

Wait now then what have we forgotten? Oh yes: You take the daughter because you've always wanted one, you go to Tattooine oh by the way Quai Gon will teach you how not to die normally so that explains THAT, look here's a deathstar, um, erase that droid's memory, phew that's that sorted out, here you have this kid, his Dad'll never think of looking for him here where his mum used to live and all the folk have his surname, you go off to be a hermit, goodbye!

his Dad'll never think of looking for him here where his mum used to live

Vader doesn't know that the babies survived, he assumes they died with Padme, so nothing to look for. I thought it was pretty dumb that he remembered Padme at all (but 'worth it' for his reaction). You would think he might sense something amiss but he didn't sense Leia was Luke's sister until it was so bleedin' obvious so shrug.

The Empire probably end up not knowing much about Tatooine's remote inhabitants because of the Hutt's own control of things there.

1) WOW WHAT A GREAT MOVIE!!!
2) It's really too bad that Hayden Christensen has the acting chops of a bundt cake.

I mean, Natalie Portman is by no means the world's greatest actress, BUT if she'd been paired up with someone who could actually GIVE energy to a scene rather than sucking all of the energy out of it like a gigantic sponge, leaving a vacuous pit of uneasy glower reminsicent of the expression on the face of someone with rampant diarrhea waiting in a long restroom line in place of emoting and connecting with the other people in the scene, both II and III would have been MUCH MUCH better.

Having said that, the bits at the end where completely lost his shit and was chewing up the lava planet were awesome; the rest of the movie needed more of that in order to make his fall believeable.

"Don't worry, Padme. I will protect you."

"You're not making me a master? This is insulting. I am outraged. No really, I am."

I like the idea that the Emperor decided to help him after he was turned into jerk chicken by giving him James Earl Jones's voice.

Was Luke presented to Tatooniners as being Owen's son?

I totally assumed Darth's solitude chamber in the original movies was a shitter

(at least that was what was going on with the one person in our group who didn't think he completely, totally, utterly sucked ass on a level specially invented for his performance in the movie, so I'm just going to apply it to everyone who liked him in the movie because that's the only explanation that makes any rational sense to me for any positive commentary about any scene he had before the lava planet)

Dan, you talking about me? I do think he's gorgeous (heh) but no, I though his acting in Episode 2 was shitty to the point of unwatchable. I just thought he improved in this one.

The reason I said his acting was mostly ok, was because I kept thinking of his scenes with Palpatine which I thought were all really good except for the part just after Mace Windu dies ("What have i done?!!" "Oh right, I meant to do that"). Even there, it's really more a question of a crap script than bad acting.

Then again, him being good may be just me projecting because Ian McDiarmid was so damn slick. :)

http://www.newyorker.com/critics/cinema/articles/050523crci_cinema

Then I went home to my host's place, where they played the videodisc of the original Star Wars w/o CGI tinkering, Han shoots first, etc. I'd only seen it twice before, and not for at least 10 years.

It was AWESOME. Funny, beautifully paced, exciting, clever new concepts every couple of minutes, visually spectacular...

I do like the slight griminess of everything in Lucas' universe. But the first movie gives the sense that this is where tension that's been building up for a long time suddenly blows up--that it's an extraordinary moment in an ordinary universe. ROTS is all boom-boom-boom, front-to-back, and it gets incredibly tiresome very quickly.

MEMORABLE!

Han Solo: Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.

Darth Vader: Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.

Luke: I have a very bad feeling about this.

Obi-Wan: Use the Force, Luke.

Darth Vader: The Force is strong with this one.

Obi-Wan: The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.

Han Solo: YAHOOOOO! You're all clear, kid. Now let's blow this thing and go home.

Luke: Got 'im! I got 'im!

Han Solo: Great, kid. Don't get cocky.

Princess Leia: You came in that thing? You're braver than I thought.

Also: HAN SOLO=MASTURBATING. You never thought of that, did you?

I've been resisting weighing in on this, but briefly:

Yoda totally accepted defeat way too easily.

Natalie Portman looks and acts like a Jersey girl who won an MTV contest to 'have a scripted role in Star Wars!" - She should definitely be killed.

Why, at the end of Jedi, when Anakin returns in ghost / hologram form, is he an old man? Shouldn't he have appeared as he did before the 'accident?'

I know it wouldn't have made a WHOLE lot of sense in context, but does anyobody think that scenes concerning the birth of Solo, the origin of Jabba, etc, would have been very welcome additions, even if extraneous to the plot?

This was in fact changed in the DVD from last year -- Hayden is now there instead. As Jabba was in Phantom Menace the character was already established.

"Pageantry" really is the best word for the whole thing, and the sheer visual indulgence of the prequels reemphasizes it.

"Badmouthing Star Wars these days is considered a felony; on a level with spitting on the American flag, denigrating Motherhood, admitting you hate Apple Pie, or trying to dope Seattle Slew.

"In the hysterical wake of all-stops-out media hype, uncritically slavish reviews, effulgent word-of-mouth praise and the chance of being trampled to death by ex-Star Trek groupies, who've had their epiphany-conversion, as they queue up to see the film for the fifth or sixth time ... anyone daring to suggest that Star Wars is less monumental than the discovery of the fulcrum and lever, runs the risk of being disemboweled by terminal acne cases.

"This lemminglike hegira to worship at the shrine of director George Lucas and "the return of entertainment!" has been so carefully orchestrated that otherwise sane and rational filmgoers whose dessicated sophistication has led them to find flaws in even such damn-near-perfect movies as The Conversation, Taxi Driver, Oh God! and Nashville, roll their eyes and clap their hands in childish delight. And I think childish is the operative word in this lunatic equation."

Harlan Ellison, August 1977, from his essay "Luke Skywalker is a Nerd." You can look at the assumptions in this introductory spot and see what in future becomes The Standard Line (Lucas kills good movies, specifically good movies made by Americans in the 1970s, DEAD!) already delineated. You can however also see the roots of many reactions since starting here too, mind you, and not a few of them upthread. I wonder too how many of us here read the 'terminal acne cases' line, shudder a bit inside in recognition, seek to bolster ourselves by saying, "No, no, the original experience WAS great, it's only now that's gotten it wrong, it's only NOW that Lucas failed!"

This isn't a new thought on my part, obviously. But I think it bears repeating because while I don't doubt anyone's reaction to any of the films, old or new, positive or negative, I find many of the battle lines being drawn in shifting sands. More than most popular entertainments -- in any genre -- Star Wars as concept and product is so outrageously supersized in impact, in memory, in nostalgia, in literal worldwide reach, in claims for its great and fundamental importance (whether in terms of celebration or condemnation) that all reactions to it (I'm not going to discount my own over the years!) can't but be similarly scoped.

Lucas can't have fallen off, he can only have destroyed your childhood. He didn't show the best of skills in his scripts, he can only have been the most wooden screenwriter in the history of creation. He didn't end up creating a fluke megauniversal hit in 1977, he pulverized cinematic art forever and everything must be laid at his doorstep for what's gone wrong since. People vote for Star Wars as the best film ever and others throw up their hands in horror and act as if Armageddon occurs, and then those same voters for Star Wars bewail the idea that anybody could like *anything* in the prequels. Etc. etc.

Obviously I engage in hyperbole but good grief, people, look at this thread, look *anywhere.* How many people think that the success of Star Wars was a sign of people not wanting to grow up? How people who celebrate and push other movies or other works of art seen as more mature are trying either to defensively show they *have* grown up or alternately have left behind Star Wars as something to grow out of and never look back on?

(Where did you think my slightly defensive and probably overly paranoid mentioning of Kurosawa et al in my first post-viewing message comes from, if not some sort of buried but present, "GAWD if I don't find a way to invoke other films I happen to enjoy very much, which can easily be argued as being more mature/memorable/etc. whatever than what Lucas did, in terms of defending the simple and clear fact that I *had a good time and enjoyed the film* then how much crap will I have to deal with from people who somehow automatically assume that liking this is a sign that you're not to be trusted with ANYTHING?" vibe? And how much easier and simpler it is to be seen to embrace franchises and writers and creations loved so by what Huk-L once memorably described as 'nerds who don't think they are nerds,' for people who love other specific soap/space/comic/whatever operas because it's supposed to be more real/true to life and because therefore they can claim that what meaning is wrung out of them is more automatically valid than whatever meaning can be wrung out of Star Wars?)

I could go on but this is getting to be too much of a rant already.

The rest descend from there, but I will cut my rant short here.
many xposts

PS The marketing complaint is a red herring.

*Howard Dean Yell*

I'd say rather that the rap he gets is almost always phrased in absolutist terms -- which you then went on to say he deserved completely, which kinda illustrates my point! Especially with reference to what he created -- by extension, does that mean Altman only deserves criticism consisting of a series of interwoven comments from twenty different writers, some of which are set to self-penned songs by those writers?

Keep in mind too that I'm just as fed up with claims that Lucas's the greatest visionary in the history of cinema or whatever. All you have to do is listen to freakin' Rick McCallum talk for ten seconds and you think to yourself, "Where's my gun?"

speak of the devil. From The Gauntlet:

In the meantime, one-time tattoo artist Fred Durst has proven himself one of the hardest-working men in show business. He's acted as an A&R rep for Flip Records (signing the band Staind and producing the upcoming second album from Jacksonville homies Cold); he's been a guest on records from such notables as Korn, Videodrone and Soulfly; and he directed the heavily-rotated video for "Faith" as well as the video for "Nookie." The singer helped design and create the outlandish above-described stages. He's even writing a screenplay! "Look at George Lucas!" laughs Fred, when asked about his energy and unflagging attention to detail. "That motherfucker, he don't stop, dude! If we do enough amazing things - films, videos, songs, music - you become legends, and a whole new generation becomes tripped-out to work with you."

i dunno man, i still love the originals! and i don't think you can really respond to criticism of the new movies with "oh you're just trying to be a big grown-up about it all." i mean if that's what you think my criticism of "sith" amounts to then i feel like i haven't communicated my thoughts at all.

as for the hyperbole, well, these are popular movies people have a lot invested in. so naturally they're going to get emotional about it...

No worries, Slocki, I didn't take your criticism in that light and can see why you'd be aggreived by the suggestion. I'm just trying to delineate reasons and rationales, and I think in a number of cases (but not all cases, by any means) that's a strong subtext. I responded rather harshly to Forkclovestofu on another thread precisely because that *was* the subtext I sensed.

(soz, still not seen ep3 and probly won't for some time)

-- Forksclovetofu (forksclovetof...), May 22nd, 2005.

oh i did, cap-i-tan.

crosspost

HARLAN ELLISON THINKS *OH, GOD!* IS A NEAR-PERFECT MOVIE?!?!?

Also: Harlan Ellison was right on. I LOVE the originals and am an unabashed sci-fi dweeb, but that doesn't change the truth.

DAMN YOU!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! *tortured Hammill mouth* NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

At last, a theater for ppl who hate movies and likely babble throughout, YAY! Stay there and don't plague the rest of us.

Salon readers answer "when the Force left them":

http://www.salon.com/ent/letters/2005/05/21/star_wars/index.html

(xpost Steve, you've never heard me make fun of Harry Potter or LOTR????)

My favorite comment on that photo from Chris Poops McGee -- "Looks like he's taking it balls deep from Darth Anus."

Well, in this instance it's because actually saying the word "children" might have lent some gravity to what is a genuinely heinous crime ("between ages four and eight..."). Saying "youngling" just sounds...funny.

Also: the LOTR movies were good. You're forgetting that part.

The fact that the latter also happened to be a trained linguist might have had something to do with it.

Also: the LOTR movies were good. You're forgetting that part.

Irrelevant to the point.

xpost

stevem -- to be fair, no-one has actually defended the film, as far as i can tell, beyond, 'quite good special effects'.

Yeah, I'm trying to stay out of this, but I would like someone to explain what *is* good about it, any of it. Were you... excited? Moved? How? Why? Because while you were doing that, I was watching one of the worst, most unpleasant movies I have willingly paid for in years. No hyperbole there, either.

I don't think Lucas or the target audience give a toss about this, so it seems like a worthless criticism (for something that lots of people seem to keep using as one of the film's biggest problems). The terms used are in keeping with the tradition of Star Wars (terms coined for kids to 'get' with ease, not bothered with this 'dumbing down' aspect personally as I've seen it all my life) and many of those terms are so engrained on a generation's brains that I'm surprised these things stick out for some (people who expected to dislike this film anyway, mostly).

true confessions: i quite liked the first three films when i was 13, although i don't think i've seen any of them more than twice. i saw the rereleases in 1997; every week we'd get incredibly stoned on a tuesday evening and go see them. fun times.

so if i did accept the names then, then i accepted them then. but it was a long time ago in a, etc, etc. so to call it now is not a worthless criticism.

what is a worthwhile criticism? if we're not aloud to cazall lucas on script, direction, story, characterization...?

a) an explanation of what led Anakin to the dark side;
b) an explanation of how Padme died;
c) lots and lots of cool lightsaber duels;
d) Yoda kicking ass.

The movie delivered on all four and added as a bonus gave some of the best performances in a Star Wars movie to date (Ewan MacGregor, Ian McDirmand). Furthermore, the entire showdown between Anakin, Padme and Obi-Wan was stellar.

HAVING SAID ALL OF THAT, part of the fun of these movies is how campily AWFUL certain aspects are, like Luke the Irredeemable Whiner from the first trilogy and Anakin the Jedi Mannequin in the second trilogy. There isn't a moment in the movie where I thought that Anakin actually gave a shit about Padme's existence, even in the selfish "I must have you at any cost" way that needed to be conveyed in order for his turning to make any sense; poor Natalie Portman spent the whole movie wringing anguished tears from her vagina and Hayden just kind of looked at her like she was maybe hiding a particularly quenching Orange Julius under her shirt and maybe after he finished his workout he'd be thirsty enough to pay attention to her. Conversely, Mark Hamill played Luke as if he was a six-year-old stuck in a post-pubescent body, ping-ponging wildly between "OOOH TOYS!" and "OOOH BOOBIES!" for the first two movies.

The first trilogy would have been DOA without Harrison Ford and the second would have been DOA without Ewan MacGregor.

(xpost to Kenan: Perhaps you shouldn't have put quite so much sand in your vagina before you saw the movie?)

oh i get it, you're on the lucasfilm street team now.

Call him on it as much as you please, sir. But if your whole approach here has been to insist that the films in toto can only be seen as shit and not to accept any alternate interpretation which doesn't foreground that first and foremost, that doesn't apologize first before trying to defend it -- as opposed to, say, talking about the positive/approving side first *without* apologizing for doing so and then addressing points of difference and disapproval as they come up -- then pardon the feelings of frustration.

If you want to know what people thought were good, it's here on this thread (I pointed out the bits I liked as did others). It was exciting because a lot of people had been excited and thinking about this film for ten years or more. It was a big red x on the calendar in my mind for so long, to the extent where I'd go around thinking 'I can't die before I see this film' and 'what do I do after this?' and I'm not even an obsessive fan, it's just been something to latch onto for so long, the appeal, the sights and sounds retained from youth...

Sights and sounds being the big reason why it was anticipated and enjoyed as an experience. No different from a massive fireworks display or a rock concert in that respect, but much more seismic under the pop cultural lens which I'm eager to view it through. In the end, it disappointed of course, but it also enthralled and fascinated at the same time. As I said above, absolute verdicts are never satisfying for me when it comes to popcorn lightshows like this (and The Matrix sequels) which attempt to amalgamate various elements of appeal (re-telling and recontextualising of popular mythology, fantastic sights and sounds, humour, other literary references) via the film medium, because it's practically impossible to cultivate a flawless product, in the eyes of adults who are younger and faster at least.

So all we have here in Revenge Of The Sith is a piece of work that's filled with great ideas, well shot, cinemtographically decent and with superb special effects (not just 'quite good' - context is the issue here but I think Yoda's technically as strong as Gollum, it's just they don't do as much with him) but suffers from poor execution in key areas regarded as integral and paramount by film critics, specifically much of the writing and acting. Two very big cogs granted, and you may well think that if they're not slick enough it affects the machine as a whole significantly. I still appreciate the design of that machine though, as a beautiful object (one that doesn't work quite as well as it 'should'/could but works nonetheless), and I appreciate how it came to be made, what was involved, the reasons etc. and that's all part of the thrill when seeing the finished product. So it was enjoyable and emotional experience for that (partly because when something 'bad' happened it WAS a bit like another slap of the heart...only to be massaged and tickled again at another point).

Try for character interaction that exceeds two paragraphs, George!

I'm with Kenan all the way, I think. Mostly the stupidity of this one made me think fondly of Harrison Ford and what wit was displayed in the first three. Ep. 3 was completely indefensible.

it's funny, cos i'm a big, big godard fan, have read everything about him ever, own all the dvds that exist of his (1959-72 only, of course), posters on the wall... and a new godard film came out on friday and...

i couldn't give a shit. it'll probably be dreadful, frankly. so this i why i can't see why s/w fans can't let go.

omg the wipes! I think most of them were built in effects on a videocamera made sometime around Jedi.

Dan Perry OTM. Like it or not, Star Wars will always be measured against different criteria than other films. If you honestly went to ANY of these films expecting anything but campy space opera (the last 40 minutes of III taking "space opera" about as literally as possible) then you are STOOPID. Seriously. Straight up dumb. Or the type of person that willingly indulges in bad film/music/sex just so you can complain about it.

As I said earlier (ditto Dan and many others), part of the fun (remember that? Fun?) of these movies is their excruciating clunkiness. It makes the sweet parts sweeter and gives you something to laugh about later. Plus, nothing encourages repeated video viewings than crappy dialogue that you can roffle at when you're stoned.

"No, you're beautiful because *I* love *you* so much."

Barf. But best barf ever.

xposts

"Obi-WAAaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!"

blame the critics! nice! the liberal media hates this film!

Those originals starring Buster Crabbe:

http://imdb.com/title/tt0032290/

The Empire Strikes Back was not clunky.

If you honestly went to ANY of these films expecting anything but campy space opera

I love campy space opera! And that's what I was expecting/hoping for. But this was just pain.

I blame the critics, too... I blame them for almost universally giving this movie a pass and making me think there was hope for ep. III. I spent the day before the movie on Star Wars websites, reaquainting myself with the mythology, remembering how cool it all once was, getting a little excited, even. And then... *smack*. Oh, man, did this ever suck.

so how do you explain the fact that people are finding this vaguely camp space opera entertaining then? oh no, 'argument' refuted, oh no...

the only valid crit. to me is that much of the script and acting is written and performed to the extent that it frustrates and fails to challenge the older audience. pacing is also a problem but i forgive it more easily here because of the attempted scale of the story. it just depends on how crucial you think these things are when it comes to K.O. cinema (i need to find out more feedback from a range of YOUNGLING viewers though, to see how their qualms differ or indeed mirror those of older viewers). it'd be nice if we could see they were at least on the same level as Jackson's LOTR (but i almost give credit to Lucas for not wanting to make a 3 and a half hour finale) but i'm not gonna trash the whole thing for it when there's other stuff there to enjoy and think about.

The inconvenient flaw in this argument is that I found the prequel trilogy intensely entertaining with each movie being better than its predecessor. These movies encaspulated every single thing I loved about the original trilogy with better special effects and a darker, goth-pandering storyline (love will make you kill OH NOES). I really don't care how vociferously people denigrate these movies; I got what I wanted out of them and thank you Mr. Lucas for doing what you did (although no thanks for JarJar, the only datapoint for the "these are for KIDS" pnadering argument and yeah, he did come close to ruining the movie but Lucas rather wisely sidelined him for the next two movies so kudos for learning from heinous mistakes).

I blame the critics, too... I blame them for almost universally giving this movie a pass

WTF are you talking about? Every review I read of this movie said it sucked.

I thought this was made waaaay too obvious, to the point of parody. It would be like trying to emulate Gone With The Wind by having him say "Frankly, Padme, I don't give a damn".

Well, while I was reading the reviews, I was adjusting for the fact that I was, after all, reading reviews. And most of the critics did bitch about predictable things. Oh, the acting is wooden, etc. None of the critics, though, gave me a fair idea of the level of bad they were talking about. Really bad. Extremely fucking bad. "Bad" is the wrong word.

sven that sounds like grasping at straws to me.

It goes back to whether it's better that the prequels undermine the originals by being worse, or that they undermine them by being better. Because I think they were always going to undermine them either way (and you can certainly argue that the lightsabre battles in the prequels surpass the ones in the originals, particularly the big duel in The Phantom Menace, ironingly...if you're prepared to consider the importance of this as opposed to quality of acting/script/characters elsewhere, accepting that Star Wars on screen is still half video game rolling demo, which I'd venture it always was).

I agree! It went from actually quite scary (I really did think of Robocop as the helmet was lowered and we saw the display activated) to just absurd and funny within 60 seconds. A bit like throwing up on a rollercoaster (the fact that you threw up sucked but don't blame the rollercoaster!) maybe...

Having completed my one-a-night rewatching of the whole shebang in 1-6 order, I felt the much complained about CGI additions to various settings (Mos Eisley, Cloud City, etc.), while still showing technical flaws here and there even on the 2004 edition, now felt much more in sync with what 1-3 had posited in terms of its design. It did open up the films' universe much more.

The way the dynamic works between the Emperor and Vader in 5 and 6 now feels a lot more fraught and weird.

Wait now then what have we forgotten? Oh yes: You take the daughter because you've always wanted one, you go to Tattooine oh by the way Quai Gon will teach you how not to die normally so that explains THAT, look here's a deathstar, um, erase that droid's memory, phew that's that sorted out, here you have this kid, his Dad'll never think of looking for him here where his mum used to live and all the folk have his surname, you go off to be a hermit, goodbye!

-- h. (hum...), May 22nd, 2005.

hahaha otm

hahaha otm

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http://notimesthree.ytmnd.com/

um, his dad would've presumed he was dead along with his mom

Um, there was no reason to turn Leia into a Jedi because Luke came back. (Okay, "no reason" is overstating it a bit but in terms of narrative impetus, the only reason to make Leia a Jedi is to take down a renegade Luke, and even there you've got a hugely compelling reason not to use her, ie her nascent romance with Han Solo.)

Who else was it going to be??? Han? (Still have the same problem as with Leia only magnified.) Lando?? (Ha!) Chewbacca??? (That would work, actually.)

Surely introducing an all-new "okay THIS is our savior now, let's pretend we never pinned any hopes on that whiny bastard" character is much, much worse than building ties between already-existing characters, particularly in a large ensemble story like Star Wars?

-- $V£N! (stevem7...), May 23rd, 2005.

At this point in the film it all kind of started to make a lot more sense; all the cheesy acting, the forced melodrama of the Dark Side turn, the big lightsaber duels, the exposition, right to that sudden cut-away to the end titles. Lucas's Star Wars returns to it's roots as the campiest, big budgeted Saturday matinee sci fi opera ever concieved. When Pal names him Darth Vader before he gets his suit it upset me but now that seems like another "Oh no!" (we should have had a still frame freeze or something like a backwards zoom).

For all the hype and build-up, which was yeah ok partially marketed but you know a lot of that was self-generated from the originals, most of it felt underwhelming and like it was going-through the motions. Unless you look at it as meaning to be campy, perhaps. I felt like Anakin was just a Jedi with a bad attitude for most of the movie and then suddenly he's Darth Vader. Maybe they could have used more Dark Side seduction scnes.

I thought it was cool having Yoda fight the Emporer as Obi and Darth duel. But I totally also think he wrote these new ones way after the old ones just to cash in. The plot holes are everywhere.

The dialogue is wanky. "I don't trust you?' 'No, you don't trust me' 'what do you mean I don't trust you' 'I mean you don't trust me'. PLEASE GOD MAKE IT STOP.

All this cunting 'search your feelings crap'. Jeez.

Anakin is the universe's most stupid stupid man. Not only does it take him 20-odd years to work our that fascism =/ democracy. The mystery is no longer 'why did he turn to the darkside' but 'why did the silly cunt stay there for so long'. Yet all and sundry kept repeating that Anakin was really wise. They deserved to be executed for stupidity.

Where did the fascist aesthetic come in? One minute, it's all LOTR and flowing capes fantasy, next minute, we're all shiny plastic and fascist uniforms. Did Palpatine have them in storage waiting to roll out, like when Banks change the uniform for staff? My first move as Galactic Emperor is to get some men in to change the look. It's so Star Trek round here.

Chewie apparently goes from honoured second in command of the Wookie nation and friend of the Chief Jedi to working for a dodgy smuggler, making him the galactic equivalent of Frank McAvennie.

Dave Prowse is badly missed. Vader always looked big, and unreal and chunky. Slightly podgy even. But the new Vader is svelte. When he does his 'noooooo' he looks thin and gaunt. Can cyborgs go to fat?

The final scene seemed emblematic. In EpIV, the tatoonine sky was stark, with the twin suns in the distance. In this, it's all super duper matte paintings. here's the rub - Lucas is shit. He's got a good eye for a story, but he's rubbish. Star Wars was better for the limitations it placed on his ability to realise his vision. When allowed free reign, the result is just awful.

Yoda jumping around like Sonic the fucking Hedgehog is as embarrassing as it was in AOTC. He just doesn't get the fact that cgi characters are shite. The point made about the iguana up thread is OTM. He does things because it would be cool, not because it makes sense. he's less a director than a kid who's won a competition to try a load of gizmos out at ILM.

Someone said at the time of TPM that Lucas loves Luke Skywalker, when everyone else loved Han and thought Luke was a serious and earnest dull boy. I wanted to believe, but this has pushed me to the dark side. Fuck lucas and fuck the horse he rode in on. And fuck his house too.

xpost - and what the fuck was padme wearing in bed? Jesus.

does digital projection really make that much of a difference?

Doesn't get much exercise in that thing. Then again maybe he's only fed on an IV drip.

Yes.

Of course. Little kids love them.

Will be seeing the film digitally later this week with a friend if all goes as planned.

What will Star Wars fans do now? Now the work is complete, what happens next? Is there any sense of deflation in the community, or closure, or is there anticipation for the other non-filmic stuff, or what?

a) an explanation of what led Anakin to the dark side;
b) an explanation of how Padme died;

Okay, but these would have worked as well in the "entire movie on scroll" version discussed above.

c) lots and lots of cool lightsaber duels;

I devolve into rockism here: I'm a big fan of the story about David Prowse and/or Mark Hamill asking Irvin Kershner about how complicated the duel in TESB should be, and him telling them "Keep it simple. It's the other stuff that'll make it complicated."

d) Yoda kicking ass.

I don't know why this annoys me so much, maybe just that it's "almost" technology - it almost looks reslistic but stops short. Though the fighting R2 annoyed me as much.

as a bonus gave some of the best performances in a Star Wars movie to date (Ewan MacGregor, Ian McDirmand).

MacGregor's job was sort of unique - I don't know of anyone else who's employed to replicate another actor in toto. He did very well at it, but I still think it was a waste. This is related to something I said earlier (maybe 3 years earlier) about how this has made me realise just how lucky George Lucas was to have Harrison Ford in the first trilogy: a great natural actor that can take terrible dialog and make it sound like something his character would say (and can improvise, with a director that trusts him - "I know", for example). Ewan MacGregor's actually one of the few actors that I'd rate as highly in that direction, and he's wasted here.

McDiarmid: Hell no. That sort of portentious Actoring is what the series doesn't need. He sounded like he was talking to whales the whole time. Nooot froom aaa Jeeedddddiiiiii.

Switch to stevem:

but much more seismic under the pop cultural lens which I'm eager to view it through

Now hang on a minute here. The first one was very important culturally (and personally), but the third one's just another big film. It didn't appear on any "a look forward at 2005" summaries I saw, and I'll be amazed if it turns up high on any retrospectives at the end of the year.

As I said above, absolute verdicts are never satisfying for me when it comes to popcorn lightshows like this (and The Matrix sequels) which attempt to amalgamate various elements of appeal (re-telling and recontextualising of popular mythology, fantastic sights and sounds, humour, other literary references) via the film medium, because it's practically impossible to cultivate a flawless product, in the eyes of adults who are younger and faster at least.

I have absolutely no idea what you're saying here, except that it reminds me that you liked (and like) the Matrix sequels, which doesn't cause me to trust your judement more. The Matrix sequels didn't even have the burden of 25 years of history on their shoulders: they just sucked.

So all we have here in Revenge Of The Sith is a piece of work that's filled with great ideas

Name three.

although no thanks for JarJar, the only datapoint for the "these are for KIDS" pnadering argument

The increasing cartoonishness of the robots (and the voices for them) also argues for this, I think. Not the two droids as much as the buzz robots, the battle droids, the lava droids.

Unbeatable!

Your continuity mind-tricks won't work on me, Darth Boyler.

Andrew, Yoda fighting is supposed to look realistic? B-but Star Wars being a live action cartoon...

I liked McGregor/Obi-Wan's cavalier attitude as he dropped down on Grievous. "Well hello!" Anyone have problems with this bit? Fok you den...

It didn't appear on any "a look forward at 2005" summaries I saw

Er, you don't read mainstream movie mags like Empire or take Wossie seriously as a film critic then? (Fair enough, but to say this film was not being widely touted as the biggest mainstream cinematic event of the year is frankly absurd)

I have absolutely no idea what you're saying here, except that it reminds me that you liked (and like) the Matrix sequels, which doesn't cause me to trust your judement more. The Matrix sequels didn't even have the burden of 25 years of history on their shoulders: they just sucked.

I like (love, even) some things about the Matrix sequels. I have never said anywhere that they are 'good films'. I'm intrigued by why Lucas and the Warchowskis went the routes they did though, which results in me being branded an apologist/sympathiser, understandably but often frustratingly.

So all we have here in Revenge Of The Sith is a piece of work that's filled with great ideas

Name three.

What's the point? See upthread for my list of 'the good', which is by no means definitive and by all means subjective, surprise surprise.

I've muttered that. It was, how you say, goofy.

The more I think about it, the production is what upsets me - there's no unity to it, aside from - as that review linked upthread says - vulgar grandiosity. If only Lucas had have died, and in his will, insisted Peter Jackson make these films.

Also - see how the Death Star was constructed - they were making the sphere and building in, which means they'd changed it by ROTJ, where they were building across.

Also also - someone I watched it with swore they saw the Falcon in one scene. Are they lying like a cheap watch?

Hold firm Dave! You're weakening man!

I found that to be a really interesting concept, but can't remember anything else about the book.

We never saw the interior of the Star Destroyers prior to this point in the saga. We don't need to know what inspired the interior designers to make them as they were but I would suggest that attempting to emulate the sumptious art deco stylings of Coruscant's interiors would seem a bit impractical for deep space travel and intergalactic warfare.

If the Star Destroyers from EPisode 2 were not already manned by people wearing these uniforms in addition to transporting CLone Troopers then I'm not sure what prompted the choice, and if not clones who were these military advisors prior to the birth of the Empire? this question is probably explored in a book.

Wormhole!

I'm not being paid by George, honest...

Then don't even bother. Video will just make the bad bits worse (acting, dialogue) and the good bits anemic (space battles, etc.).

Everything you wanted to know about Yoda but were afraid to ask.

This was the cause of much hilarity for my viewing group. I was also keeping a running tally of Padme hairstyles (8).

I know that everyone on ILE has decided that they hate her but I really liked Natalie Portman in this movie, particularly in the scenes where everything goes to shit (her freaking out at the Jedi enclave getting crushed, freaking out at Obi-Wan, freaking out at Anakin on Lavaworld). Her last words were awesome.

(xpost "double-teaming" Dooku = ew)

Star Wars - one big sword-fight.

it wasnt as boring as the secnod one though.

I dont get why the origianl films are surrounded by mystique, but thats probably becuase i saw them 20 years after they came out and i was 16 or something. they sttrike me as fairly standard slightly crappy, cheesy sci fi blockbusters*, with some jokes and some pretty cool looking machines and spaceships** etc. so to me, theres no "lucas is a traitor" shit or whatever, thats pretty alien.

* yeah yeah they were filmed on a shoe string or something.
** orange! so cool!

(xpost: Ambrose is so completely OTM; I don't understand how you can like the original trilogy and hate the new one.)

Their overall maturation calendar has got to be screwy relative to Earth if in Episode I Anakin is a kid and Padme is an adolescent, and in Episode II they've caught up developmentally.

I still won't blame the actors (completely), because even Samuel L. wasn't cool. Thus it has to be Lucas's fault all around.

xpost - that's what's even weirder. Animals with long life-spans/growth rates (ie Padme not aging over 15+ years) should have super-long gestation periods, right?

That shit was HARSH. She was basically the only Jedi that neither got a fighting chance nor even some kind of Jedi-sense precog warning. Even the yeunglings had at it for a second. She was also the only female Jedi... I'm not blowing any whistles here, but c'mon George.

(also: the fact that you correctly identify her as Twi'lek is both hilarious and embarassing for everyone, DP.)

Ep 1: A = 10, P = 18
Ep 2: A = 18, P = 26
Ep 3: A = 22, P = 30

The amount of change between 10 and 22 is way greater than between 18 and 30.

Having gone back and rewatched the original trilogy, the biggest difference I see is that the kiddie-pandering in "Return Of The Jedi" is only slightly less irritating than the kiddie-pandering in "The Phantom Menace"; otherwise, it's the same storytelling technique with the same dialogue flaws with the same type of shut-off-your-brain-and-enjoy-the-spectacle performances. Saying otherwise strikes me as wilfully wallowing in nostalgia and not actually recognizing what the original movies are.

She was hott.

one scene in particular in this movies sums everything up: After Anakin kills Mace Windu he wails "What have I done?"

it's so strange. a more subtle film would simply give us an actorly close up and let us figure out that for ourselves. why does he need to say anything? we are trying to absord an important moment only to be completely distracted but superfluous dialogue.

why does Vader need to yell "no!" at the news of Padme's death when a simply a silent beat and erie close up of the mask, his last vestiges of humanity vanishing and becoming machine, would have been so much more effective--and incredibly moving?

it's a rich irony that Lucas never exploits--Anakin's passion destroys him and makes him into a machine--only to be saved later by his son?

it's not so much a matter of the film adopting a certain style--it's that the style lucas chose manages to undermine any emotional involvement by making everything so broad. this has the potential to be a GREAT story with all kinds of interesting conflicts and emotions. it doesnt NEED "what have I done?"

it seems Lucas is hell bent on keeping at a remove all emotion in the film--to the point where every possibly emotional moment is undermined but obviousness. the only one that really worked was Obi Wan saying "i failed you"--but he doesnt even really seem to feel that bad about it, because i guess if he did then it might introduce some feelings of ambiguity, or just feelings period.

Get this -- that's supposed to be a water opera as performed by the tastily named Mon Calamari. In otherwards, the same species Admiral Ackbar comes from. So they either spend their time flying through the air to pseudo Gyuto monk chanting or they shout "IT'S A TRAP!"

Your faith in your friends is yours. Er, wait.

(i am currently creating a better movie in my head)

That would have been much better.

xpost Ned: ACKBAR!

I don't think he missed that subtext at all! In fact I actually think that's pretty damned essential to thinking how the whole story unfolds (and while he doesn't develop it as much, I don't think it's absent from any of the prequels either).

lucas a machine? kinda. i know it sounds weird, but it's not at all the corny style that takes away from the emotion, as i said i think there are nearly conscious attempts to thwart any emotional involvement. shakespeare is just as distant to me as the style of these films, but somehwere there is a content in shakespeare that gets to me, but not in star wars. i can't quite make clear what i mean here, so i'll shut up. (suffice it to say i think Lucas is afraid to expose himself here--he doesnt take these movies seriously enough)

Ep. 1: "Is-a we-sa gonna DIE???"
Ep. 2: Drawing a blank, but I've only seen it once.
Ep. 3: "Arise... LORD VADER." vs. "YOU TURNED HER AGAINST ME!!!" vs "YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO BE THE CHOSEN ONE!!!!!" vs "...Not from a Jedi."

Furthermore, from a strict, self-contained plotting standpoint, both "Star Wars" and "The Phantom Menace" stand out above the other four movies; neither "The Empire Strikes Back" nor "Attack Of The Clones" make sense as a standalone movie (functioning as they do as the middle-act of a trilogy, although AOTC is much more standalone) and, in terms of climax and resolution, "Revenge of the Sith" stomps all over "Return of the Jedi", the latter clearly being the weakest of the three movies.

"the original movies are just as bad" is really the weirdest defence of the prequels.

It's a statement of fact! Well, opinion, but one that's got verifiable datapoints to shore it up. Also, your statement of the position is the negative one whereas it really should be cast as the positive, namely the original trilogy was an immensely fun rollercoaster ride of good versus evil and so is the new trilogy.

ep. 1: Anakin: "YIPEE!" and "Whoops!"
ep. 2: Padme's love speech beginning, "I don't like sand..."
ep. 3: "NOOOOOOOOOOOO!"

Deliciously, off-the-fuckin'-map, can't-believe-I-really-just-saw-that bad.

ep. 3: "Hold me. Hold me like you did on the shores of Naboo" v. ("You're so beautiful" "You're only saying that because I love you so much" "No, I'm saying it because I love you so much.") v. "Not if anything to do with it I have!!!!!!!!"

Haha!

Also: I pity the poor fool he's getting an email notification everytime someone posts....

Anakin is in white-hot rage mode at that point and I think the only thing he's hearing Obi-Wan say at that point is "Jibba jabba jibba jabba jibba jabba!"

The "NOOOOOOOOOOOO!" is completely redeemed by the evil little smile the Emperor gives after it happens.

Quite so. Frankly I love that bit!

'famous' lines from episode 1:

"At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last we will have our revenge." (pretty much the only thing Maul says but it sticks out for me partly because of it's significance (hinting at both future and past elements in the overal story) but mainly because it's Peter Serafinowicz who I unconditionally wub.

'famous' lines from episode 2:

"I'm just a simple man trying to make my way through the universe"

"This party's over!"

neither of these being any cheesier than anything from the originals.

It kind of is! I really love how Padme's hair became a character in its own right over the course of this trilogy.

eat more, think less

Btw the only line I can remember from ep 2 is the 'death sticks' one.

x-zing

I dont get why the origianl films are surrounded by mystique,

Because they're not as boring. They're also not as exciting, but people react to these differences in different ways.

Episode IV = schlocky serial pastiche
Episode V = actual good film, with acting and plot and all
Episode VI = emotional payoff from the first two + setpiece just about beats the kiddie pandering.

The difference is that the second and third film were written and directed by people who weren't George Lucas (Davids Lynch and Cronenburg turned down Return Of The Jedi!), and they know how to let the actors have fun, and George Lucas just doesn't.

I have no actual idea why Episode IV works.

Part of the problem might be that IV-VI are WWII films at heart, and so people understand and react to those kind of stories better than they do to more unfamiliar ones.

I mean one is actually 'good vs evil' and the other is 'good vs evil is a fakeout!'.

Haha. "I don't want to stand in line for Star Wars. I want to go home and rethink my life."

BTW, I misquoted poor Padme as having said this: "I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere. Not like here. Here everything is soft and smooth."

xpost: The biggest problem with V being "the good one" is that it's the one that completely hinges on what came before and what's coming afterwards! It's kind of hard to say, "Oh yeah, that's the best plot" when it doesn't really have an ending. Although there is the uncomfortable incest kiss at the beginning to make the audience roffle so maybe I'm talking shit here.

"... like my VAGINA."

x-post...or is it?

Also known as "crack whore Yoda".

"... like my VAGINA."

[Hey slightly more -- I'm pretty happy these days -- thanks f'rasking -- I post mostly on ILB since they stick to the boring old topic I have the most to say about.]

I saw it once, very very very stoned. My head nearly exploded. I've been trying to get my friends to watch it again since then but I think I'm the only one who was remotely entertained.