So What Does The EU Do For Us?

How is UKIP a joke? They may have saved England from becoming a province of the Holy Belgian Empire by rousing the voters to opposition. A united Europe is the eternal threat to England, from Caesar to Philip V to Napoleon to Hitler to Stalin. You are not thinking through what it means to be ruled by foreigners who have no loyalty to you. You really think Europe is going remain tame and democratic forever? Outside Switzerland, democracy is not the Continental tradition: corporatist authoritarianism is. Where will England be when Europe goes fascist or communist again?

This makes me angry, and I truly believe that he is completely misunderstanding the dynamics of both European politics post-WWII and just being a reactionary twat. But I lack the vocabulary and direct evidence to contradict him.

http://europa.eu.int/comm/publications/index_en.htm

for starters.

If this works as intended - go EU! Bring our stupid working practices into line with the rest of Europe! But ... I have a horrible feeling this could mean staff cuts, wage freezes etc as employers try to work a way around it. Who can tell?

does this mean you *won't be allowed* to work 40 hours plus or that companies won't be allowed to make you?

currently the maximum anyone can be employed for in any seven day period is 48 hours. This is the same all over europe apart from in Britain where that is also the rule but employees can sign a waiver to exempt themselves from that rule.

So he doesn't like Belgium. :-(

;-)

You really think Europe is going remain tame and democratic forever? - European unity is the best way to avoid a collapse of democracy. We can influence others.

Britain is less influential in Europe than Germany and France, thank God

does this hold for people like doctors and lawyers as well? paralegals? in the US all the paralegals and lawyers I know work insane hours, partially so they can pay off the horrendous loans, and partially because it takes that long to get the work done. what about people on salary?

hahahaha right -- those are the two main reasons!

Oh god now he's on to the complete privatisation of education and the abolishment of government grants to be replaced with student loans, etc. yadda yadda. Yes, like the American system is so perfect. (And you lot thought *I* was conservative with regards to education.)

I find his basic premises so wrong-headed I can't argue with him.

it's not that simple, unfortunately. for less powerful countries, it means potentially great instability because the more powerful can fuck your currency.

So I sent him back a note saying thank you very much, but here in the Holy Belgian Empire, we have an ARTS COUNCIL who make sure that people get paid *TO* have art shows, not pay to play. Take that.

Concerning trade policy: I have been published in reputable economic journals, so I actually know something about it. A few facts:

1. The UK does not get free trade out of the EU, which still has all sorts of non-tariff barriers.

2. The EU's average external tariff is 1.5%, so the UK could get basically the same thing without belonging to the EU.

3. Nations smaller than Britain, like Switzerland and Norway, do just fine without belonging to the EU.

4. WTO rules would require the EU to grant the UK similar terms.

5. The UK is currently running a record trade DEFICIT under these EU conditions you think are so great. This is not a successful outcome!

So the EU doesn't benefit the UK on trade. But it does impose huge costs in over-regulation, which money could go instead to the NHS, the universities, transport, or any of a dozen other public-sector needs.

Since when do you work more than 48 hours a week? I can understand work-hours limitations for ordinary working-class jobs, but high-pressure yuppie jobs are what they are and if you choose that kind of career you should accept the consequences. People can always do something else. What if I want to work 60 hours a week because I like my job? It's none of the government's bloody business.

I can directly counteract that last statement, in that even if *HE* may enjoy working 60 hour weeks, that doesn't mean that the rest of us do. And people *DO* get pressurised into doing it when they *don't* want to do it, at the expense of their health, their families, etc.

deluded fantasists assemble

Its over now don't worry.

It funnels oodles of funds into the underhanded projects of corrupt post-communist parties that make a mockery of the left in Romania even as it knows full well that the sole viable solution consists of allowing Eastern Europe to further marinate in its own Balkanico-Sovietic juices.

lmao @ those 5 points, even the dogs in the street have the knowledge to contradict him now

the five point psalm technique

Well, what an unfortunate revive.

I had recently been trying to attempt a reconciliation with the relative in question after a long estrangement. This thread and the reminder of this (among many other) historical conversations has reminded me of the many reasons we were estranged in the first place. And why I should probably minimise any further contact.

Funnily enough, I know way, way more about both the good and bad aspects of the EU now than I ever did 15 years ago - more than I ever wanted to know - and the conversation would have gone very differently if rewound today. But I have lost all appetite for that debate with him now that His Team and his mates are in charge. I couldn’t stand the gloating. Sore winners are horrible people.

Whenever Comrade Alphabet kicks off on his Tankie routine, I find it helpful to remember where he works.

(Worked? It’s been 5 years, maybe that’s changed. I got out because the cognitive dissonance between what my beliefs were, and the system I was participating in and benefiting from, was no longer tenable. YMMV)

Lol there has never been a 'tankie routine'

Plenty of people that work to pay the rent would like to see a different world. Sorry if that is hard to understand.

Why do people feel the need to drop knowledge of personal information about people irl into posts like this? Second time I’ve seen it happen to comrade accelerationist.

The EU allows you to live and work in 27 other countries. That's huge. It's a benefit I used and it enriched my life and now my son won't be able to do that, or only with much greater difficulty. Why you'd want to forego that I don't know

sovereignty iirc

My dude, I did your job for a number of years. I understand very intimately.

What I also understand, is that when you are working within a system which is so completely inimical to your own beliefs and desires for a better world, that this cognitive dissonance can and does manifest in a form of thwarted righteousness wherein one snaps at the people on the left, who are five centimeters away from where one thinks they should be. Because it's simply impossible to push back at the wall of institutional greed and mendacity in the corporate consulting world. Being around those values warps you, and even if they don't warp you towards them to accept them, they still warp you.

I also know that living the IT Consultancy Lifestyle is precarious. You can often earn in one day what others earn in a week, but that income is not predictable or regular. However, pretending that this form of precarity is the same precarity as 'struggling to pay your rent' is... disingenous at best. There is expressing solidarity, and there is... not being entirely honest about what your position is and what your relation to money is.

Sorry if that's a little harder to understand!

Why do people feel the need to drop knowledge of personal information about people irl into posts like this? Second time I’ve seen it happen to comrade accelerationist.

― gyac, 18. september 2019 11:00 (thirteen minutes ago)bookmarkflaglink

Yeah, xyz would never do that. Signed: Danish Film Critic

It's possible that it's an opportunity of so little availability to millions of UK cits that they don't see any value in it

Doesn't mean it's not a good thing but that's one reason why it's never swayed a good chunk of the electorate

xp

Very very otm. I think ppl forget that wide swathes of the populations of most countries never even leave their hometown, let alone going country-hopping 'round Europe.

And yet it's particularly easy for UK citizens as we're English speakers and you can get work teaching English in just about any European city without too much trouble. Not that everyone wants to be an English teacher but it's a good way in

if only referendums were restricted to middle class voters, then everything would be ok without these provincial scratters that vote with their fists and don't listen to what that nice Lord Adonis says :p

Branwell - from what you told me in the pub your then job involved dealing with IT contractors, but I am not one and have never been one, and certainly don't earn those rates fwiw (when you subtweeted me all those years ago I didn't bother to correct you btw, I knew I fucked up and we just unfollowed each other). Like you though I do deal with contractors that earn very very well and I do want to see a world where those disparities in income don't exist, and in any case any of us can lose our jobs, or have an accident with injury and things can turn pretty quickly...so no precarity now. But the world being created is one where all of us are looking over our shoulder. Different problems from someone who is struggling with the DWP but I think I've been clear on how awful all that is too.

On ILX we work steady enough jobs that allow us to post in our downtime from those jobs. Many of us don't exactly like what we see around us and I certainly won't be stopped from saying so in threads where I am allowed to express that and talk about it. I don't see a cognitive dissonance. I don't believe you are entirely defined by what you do to pay the rent. Or that you should be silent. So please carry on its fine. I will too.

And in IT (from what I do see) there is a variance in poltiics - like you worked there. So the fact that you got out doesn't change that.

I hope you are doing something more in line with your beliefs.

Why do people feel the need to drop knowledge of personal information about people irl into posts like this? Second time I’ve seen it happen to comrade accelerationist.

― gyac, 18. september 2019 11:00 (thirteen minutes ago)bookmarkflaglink

Yeah, xyz would never do that. Signed: Danish Film Critic

― Frederik B, Wednesday, 18 September 2019 bookmarkflaglink

I only know about it because you posted about it on threads lol. Didn't think this was a sore point for you.

The EU appears to have done some bad things to some other countries.

Has it done any bad things to the UK?

I'm not aware of them.

The notion that poverty somehow prevents you from (im)migrating is potentially kind of offensive (not saying that’s what’s happening itt). When you don’t have much of a choice, free movement is a boon.

It's complex, and it isn't only about poverty, and the usual Anglo xenophobia muddies the waters some more. But it's a denial of reality to think that leaving the country to seek work elsewhere is a realistic or think able option for a lot of working class people.

On ILX we work steady enough jobs that allow us to post in our downtime from those jobs

When I was first on ilx I was so envious of all these ppl posting during working hours, now I have finally entered the elite and can confirm it's pure bliss

And the EU's freedom of movement is very much not aimed at helping the poorest people inside or outside of EU nation states

Sorry I don’t buy that in the least. You think the Poles and Romanians and Pakistanis who come here are all spoon-fed members of the bourgeoisie back home?

The post was referring to the UK, I thought.

In the 19th century only people like Engels could post on ILX xps to ogmore

I've seen good things from EU funding: at the time of the financial crisis millions thrown at social housing refurbs in the poorest parts of inner city Sheffield. And the LAs and the gov hadn't given a fuck about these communities for decades and many of the homes were deathtraps with electrical installations that hadn't been touched for 35 years in some cases. But making the argument that the project allows you opportunities to work throughout EU zone to people from the forgotten zones, who are finding social mobility a concept given lip service by arsehole pols rather than a realistic possibility, it's a hard sell to them.

posting on ilx is my job tbh, i only do actual paid work during lulls in discussion

I'm officially too effete to do anything except lie on the settee watching Nazi documentaries and shitposting on here all day. It's alright I guess.

What’s the ILX employee’s average yearly income?

There is only one ilx employee, bizarro gazzara, he nets a cool 94k plus bennies

I am told many an ilxor has made a xls in the past..

Sorry I don’t buy that in the least. You think the Poles and Romanians and Pakistanis who come here are all spoon-fed members of the bourgeoisie back home?

unlike yer good rugged freewheeling self. Get down to the nearest foodbank queue and tell these feckless lazy brits to get on their bikes and buy a passport ffs!

"bennies" is slang for Soylent Green iirc

You don't need a passport to move to a different EU country.

And I stand by the fact that your country remains an el dorado for many foreigners, whether you like it or not.

In no small part because the British Empire gleefully fucked over most of the known world, of course.

I'm not denying that, but economic migrants that come to the UK represent a small fraction of their home countries' populations, and yes generally come from a place of even more extreme poverty than the poverty that has been quietly killing the poorest UK citizens for years

None of that alters the fact that for millions of working class people here and elsewhere economic migration is a very unrealistic possibility

Sorry I don’t buy that in the least. You think the Poles and Romanians and Pakistanis who come here are all spoon-fed members of the bourgeoisie back home?

I think we've discussed before that some countries have a culture of immigration and others don't, and yeah the reasons for that boil down to the countries that do not being wealthier imo. But that doesn't mean that the right to free movement doesn't end up scanning as a privilege for the advantaged within those countries.

a small fraction of their home countries' populations

Not really. Romania's population is slowly decreasing as a result of emigration, much of it to the UK's benefit (see this article from last year: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/may/24/romanian-second-most-common-non-british-nationality-uk).

scanning as a privilege for the advantaged within those countries

It helps explain but doesn't justify the narrative.

I'm not going to presume to know how much you know about different types of poverty traps and the rot that sets into these communities, pom. And where there aren't enough low quality jobs to go around and with a punitive benefits system that is killing people. But I guess you could tell them it's much worse in Belarus.. if you felt like being a total dick.

It justifies it within that country's context I think. If immigration isn't by and large a solution for those disadvantaged in the UK, it doesn't make sense to position it as a benefit of EU membership for those people.

xpost

Caveat (once again): I am not saying that all is fine and dandy for the British working class. It's fucking not. But I do resent the notion that immigration is somehow the province of the privileged – it's tabloid pap/fake news. Of course being wealthy greatly facilitates movement, but that is hardly the sole reason people do it.

the culture of immigration isn't a narrative, it's material. lots of poor ppl have networks that can help scrabble together cash for travel and a support network when they arrive in europe/the uk.

also teaching english in a european city is not an option for everyone, in case it's not clear

It's fairly easy to find work as a Brit in a 'third-world' country (and I'm not just talking about teaching English, although it goes without saying that such language skills come in handy), because you're viewed in a desirable light by default, regardless of social class back home. There is a narrative as well, and it's unsurprisingly asymmetrical.

Anyhow, I hope you're not seriously arguing the opposite: that extant immigrant networks (which in the Romanian community's case are quite recent) in the UK somehow facilitate settlement for said communities, whereas Brits in continental Europe are at a disadvantage.

I think these brit communities in the EU zone are more likely to be middle class. An old work colleague of mine who is now in Berlin gives me shit about how little I have travelled. He is from a public school backround and did have a bit of a support network in Germany before he landed a plum job at BetFair. But I guarantee you people from UK w/c would not have the same support net work at all.

UK w/c communities I meant to say

I'm off for a drink with this fool in Morley next month. Must remember to rip the shit out of him for his multiple Dunty retweets!

I think that's largely true, I'm just saying that lack of such support networks hasn't stopped poor immigrants (so-called 'first waves') from moving to the UK as needed.

Most UK people that move here do so with a job already secured, and it's primarily in finance. Even if they lack a social support network, they'll find their way easily enough. Money and other UK ppl are network enough.

I've no numbers on this at all but I can't imagine a lot of UK people immigrating when a new job is a gamble. The other way around happens way more often no?

but UK immigrants from disadvantaged backgrounds aren't likely to find a better quality of life outside the UK in the first place, because as you say yourself the UK is wealthy enough to attract immigration. doesn't mean it doesn't suck to be poor there.

xpost

I assume there are quite a few ppl everywhere for whom migrating is not really an option, hence the demographics of migrants.

Otm, and the 'culture of migration'-aspect is important too, as it's tied to wealth. Perhaps migration will become more popular now that the divide between the rich and the poor is only getting bigger (and a lot of people's jobs will be on the line after/because of brexit). xp

Poor Gareth Bale, he never stood a chance.

doesn't mean it doesn't suck to be poor there.

Of course, but hating on the EU because it's supposedly done jack shit for you as a working-class Brit while millions of working-class immigrants from poor EU countries have benefitted from it by making the leap begs the question tbh.

You can defend freedom of movement on those terms and explain to people why it's valuable. What you can't do tho is pretend they should feel it's benefitial to them.

I honestly think it could be in some cases, due to the asymmetry I mentioned. A Brit is viewed as a valuable asset in many an Eastern European country – for, dare I say, mythological reasons no less than 'pragmatic' ones.

They'll ask "What has the EU done for me here" first, maybe moreso than people in more EU-oriented countries. But that's what got UK in this brexit mess in the first place.

Sure, that makes sense. In which case it's best to start with one's own government.

for, dare I say, mythological reasons no less than 'pragmatic' ones.

I'd say this is true of not just Eastern Europe, but nearly all of Europe tbf.

Maybe slightly less so in France or Ireland lol, but you're right.

A lot of people abroad tend to look up to Brits, really.

"but hating on the EU because it's supposedly done jack shit for you as a working-class Brit"

The EU is a proxy for London in a lot of cases I think

I voted Remain fwiw

The EU is a proxy for London in a lot of cases I think

This just further cements what a huge misunderstanding it's been (and continues to be).

I just don't think it's true that it's only middle class Brits who benefit from freedom of movement in Europe. I've met plenty of young people from not particularly well off backgrounds who've worked in Europe in a whole variety of jobs where being a native English speaker is a huge advantage, not just teaching. The fact is if you're middle class and you want to spend a year or two in Paris or Berlin, you'll probably find a way, EU membership or no. But if you've got no money, don't have the opportunity to spend large amounts of time without working etc, then freedom to just rock up to a new city or country and get access to the job market without too much hassle or bureaucracy is pretty important. I don't think the benefit of working somewhere that's not your own culture is just an economic one anyway. There are plenty of other benefits

Most Brits are unable to speak another langage, which can't help with finding work in Europe.

I honestly think it could be in some cases, due to the asymmetry I mentioned. A Brit is viewed as a valuable asset in many an Eastern European country – for, dare I say, mythological reasons no less than 'pragmatic' ones.

I think this is much less true now that it might have been twenty years ago. I know quite a few Brits with no formal skills but an entrepreneurial mindset who have done very well for themselves in Poland, Ukraine, Czech Republic, etc, partly because of the status that being a Brit abroad conferred. Middle-class Brits still have doors opened, whether they deserve them or not.

Someone with no qualifications or capital going over today, competing with local graduates, is going to find it a lot tougher.

English is still the most easily monetizable mother tongue by far.

xp

That's fair, SV. That said, although the myth's staying power has diminished over the years, it hasn't vanished completely either.

Yeah, it's become less but it's certainly not gone all together. A Brit moving here (there are still a few) not working in finance will be met with positive bemusement. 'Wow, you made the jump! And you really like it here!'

Culture of migration is a big one. Both my parents lived and worked abroad in Europe - my dad here and my mother in France - and of my paternal family, every single one of my dad’s (many) siblings had lived and worked abroad. Many in the US, but the point stands. My family was by no means atypical in this regard but I’d struggle to find a British* person my age and background who would be able to say the same of their family. I am a bit older than my siblings and I was probably the only one who grew up thinking they wouldn’t have to work abroad - as it stands, all but one of us have spent time living and working outside Ireland.

It was just something they did, they would meet people who’d help them find work/housing and their way around the area. Nothing unusual about that, Irish people have done it for a long time.

*this doesn’t apply to people with one or more parent who immigrated or who isn’t ethnically British obviously.

Most Brits are unable to speak another langage, which can't help with finding work in Europe.

― fetter, Wednesday, September 18, 2019 1:19 PM (nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Nearly everyone can learn a new language in reasonable time at least good enough to get by. Everyone except Gareth Bale.

Someone with no qualifications or capital going over today, competing with local graduates, is going to find it a lot tougher.

Nearly everyone can learn a new language in reasonable time at least good enough to get by.

lol

That was pushing it, but I refuse to believe language is what ultimately keeps Brits from emigrating.

Leaving aside the mechanics of language acquisition, people who have been told throughout their lives that other languages are hard and they, specifically, are bad at them have a huge psychological barrier to cross, if nothing else.

As an adult you need a lot of time to learn a new language, especially to a level where you need to use it for work. And then if you have to write in that language too that's more on top.

When you don't have much of a choice, you do end up learning enough to get by, yeah. Of course, native English speakers do have the choice more often than not, including when they live abroad. I think Brits would be better at foreign languages if theirs was a minor one.

No doubt it can be harrowing though, leaving an English speaking country for a different one.

xp yeah, that.

I think Brits would be better at foreign languages if theirs was a minor one.

Absolutely.

Which is why we should actively encourage the destruction of English.

Not only not minor but getting more major with each passing year.

more of a morris minor language

There was a proposal that Ireland might change its official language to Irish after Brexit, but I believe there was insufficient enthusiasm for the shindig.

I never heard that - I remember reading about how we’d be the main anglophone country in the EU post Brexit and what it meant. I remember signing something to keep Irish classified as an official EU working language though.

Not only not minor but getting more major with each passing year.

A particular favourite quote of mine is from a British Council video, along the lines of "the government of Panama realised that learners needed to be proficient in a major global language to improve their employment prospects".

smh

LOL

I've met plenty of young people from not particularly well off backgrounds who've worked in Europe

so you are saying that those from lesser well off than "not particularly well off backgrounds" just need to get off their lazy arses, because obviously they deserve to be gaslighted to the max in a very smugly dismissive middle class voice for not being widely travelled and urbane enough.

dang I'd like to participate here today but work demands otherwise

definitely agree that the English language should be banned, though

The correct answer to the original question is: "Da' Butt."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YekncNouZZA

What I've heard is that enthusiasm for learning English is increasing with Brexit as it will then be politically neutral, this was from a sales rep from an examination board though, so pinch of salt etc.

Which is why we should actively encourage the destruction of English.

i read that as 'the destruction of the english' at first and i was like yeah, otm

this was from a sales rep from an examination board though, so pinch of salt etc.

As a sales rep for an exam board, i resent the implication that we are not wholly reliable as a bellwether for global trends.

I apologise and can I have a job please?

How would you feel about moving to Eastern Europe?

In all seriousness, idk if there is anything at the moment but send me an Ilxmail and i may be able to point you in the right direction.

I had a lovely few years in Eastern Europe, now think I have to live in Cambridge for the next 14 years or so. Could be worse I guess.

Yes, it has a lot going for it - culture, architecture, the UK's second-best exam board...

one presumes that this is not sorted

Kick them fash fuckers out imo:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/16/eu-hungary-veto-budget-viktor-orban