remember when ILX was good? [note: we seem to be discussing the merits of making ILE registered-users only on this thead now --mod]

I knew it! Kate hates me! ;-))))

but is there anywhere on the internet that doesn't do this?

Or perhaps it's just to do with a certain section of the ILx populace who in recent months seem to have gone out of their way to make these boards as unpleasant as possible, because they know they can get away with it without being dealt with?

Who knows? But until such time as the problem has been dealt with - decisively and finally - there doesn't seem to be any point in my continuing to post here. In future when I've got anything to say I'll put it on the blog, 'cos at least there I have control over responses.

(not that anyone *should* have to put up with rude shit, of course!)

Mail me if you start yr list, and I'm not too repellent to be on it plz Marcello.

For reference, search every religious, political, health, trend/fad thread ever and most of ILM. Not to mention Kabballah, which has spawned so many great trolling posts it deserves a categorization of it's own apart from "religious" or "trend/fad!"

Can't say as I've noticed

Gabba gabba, one of us?

I give up, you're too clever for me

Same as always, really. If you want a "good" ILX, start the threads yourself that you would want to read.

I started to type out more, but really I'd just be repeating the same things I've been saying for 5 years. I'm very busy today anyway so I must be good.

I don't think ilx has been any worse for trolling than anytime in the last couple of years.

Funnily enough I was able to post similar threads on this day in previous years without getting trolled, so in my view it's a worsening problem. I mean "[email protected]"? I'm sorry, maybe I have a sense of humour defect, but can someone tell me what's funny about that? Do people think this day is not painful enough without having pathetic little sociopaths ridiculing it?

But if 70% or so of people said they preferred ILE to be open to anyone this obviously means they LOVE the anon trolls and spammers, or at least prefer them to the alternative - meaning they're not going to leave this board for that reason.

Who knows, maybe it's like Devolution for Geordielan, keep referending until a yes happens...

I'm surprised you don't remember!

(god, I hate using the phrase 'zero-tolerance'. Spank me now please.)

I think I've changed my opinion from no to yes too, maybe we should hold a new discussion about the subject.

I mean, this is what really irritates me about these things - whether it's a single anonymous troll or a momentary blow-up between two acrimonious regulars - the actual event is over in a few minutes, but the debating and the pontificating and the accusations and the grandstanding and the rubbernecking go on for hours and days afterwards. Which is far more disruptive to regular ILX activity than any troll/blowup could ever be.

Anyway, that's my 2p. I'm not giving any trolls any more attention.

I've avoided them like the pox in the past but I've been sucked into this one a wee bit, bah!

(not saying that it's been discussed already and that's that--far from it--just providing some info)

This IS regular ILX activity, let's face it.

That said I don't know how I stand in regard to registration only. Some people like being logged out so they can post certain questions (which aren't harmful, only, maybe, embarassing).

I'm on a few boards and I can't say there's one that I like better than ILX. Sure there are assholes here, but that's ALWAYS the case. We will never have a perfect world where everyone gets along.

Although I never met her, I just miss Liz being here. I hate her absence. I know it's silly but I really do.

Hmm, I guess different people look for different things in ILx and that has implications for the format. I've always been more drawn to the slightly surreal and nonsensical stuff, which really benefits from the odd "random googlers". I can see how it might be more problematic for those who see ILx more as an intimate place, with more emotional significance.
In an ideal world, we should be able to have both aspects, but I guess the whole thing has reached such a size that some choices will have to be made...

Keep logging out for sensitive stuff. But as someone who's been the victim of enough logged out (and logged in) personal attacks it would be nice to see your attacker's face when they don't have the guts to say it to your face.

-- ILX Troll (trol...), August 25th, 2005.

Of course you need to have disagreements, and there's always going to be an element of rough and tumble, but surely an agreeable compromise could be reached? There are posters here with whom I famously do not get on and with whom I am unlikely ever to get on, but usually we know to stay in our own "pockets" of ILx and try not to bump into each other.

(xpost)

so otm.

http://justjustin.nsync.nu/emoticonsforjjb/aaw2.gif

I miss a lot of people, good writers, who left ILM because of the way it is.

So you're basically saying we're a bunch of crap writers, ey? ASSHOLE.

Just kidding. :-)

W E A R E I L X

fantastic!

The trolling problem: it only seems to be a "problem" if a person is expressing an unpopular opinion or view relative to the rest of the people on this board. Only *then* is a person a "troll" and only then is it a problem. It is generally the *rest* of the board, however, who respond with great hostility.

I love it when people express different views. It depends HOW they express them though (probably needless to say). Some posters come up with lovely, thoughtful responses, others are nasty, argumentative twats.

I haven't come across too many of those

There have been, Mully, times when I could have ripped someone a new arsehole, but I've held my tongue.

It wouldn't be ILX with the logging in and the closed boards and the hidden forums and suchlike.

alt + f4 isn't getting rid of the trolls, it's getting rid of yourself, so to speak.

i'd disagree. some recent posts have been pretty twattish. "a chance for suburban white kids to feel ni**erish" (from my thread about the nyc graffiti event) -- wtf is that? asterisks mine btw.

If it means people getting this wound up then maybe forums aren't good for their health. >/I>

OTMFM!!!

yes.

Take me out to the black
Tell them I ain't coming back
Burn the land and boil the sea
You can't take the sky from me

There's no place I can be
Since I found Serenity
But you can't take the sky from me

Why is it so weird to start an anonymous thread on fanny farts? Not everyone is so free-minded about sex, Tuomas! Some might feel admitting to have a girlfriend having fanny farts to be somewhat embarassing. As I said before, I think the anonymous option is great if you want to ask questions like that.

Remember the Orbit baiting way back when? This shit isnt new, and I'm mildly suprised the oldest regs here are the ones going "argh its terrible!" as if this is anything new or End Times or whatever.

the alt-f4 comment is spot on - if you cant even step away from a computer for five minutes, if you can let it upset you SO MUCH, then really, abandon all hope etc etc.

I've always had enormo fun on here.

Cue years arguing about whether or not it should change back and threads about how good it was in the old days.

(x-post)

http://www.dpadz.com/imgs/battlestar-gallactica-new-cylon.jpg

THERE ARE MANY COPIES.
THEY LOOK JUST LIKE US.
AND THEY HAVE A PLAN.

OTM. I don't think anyone's on a personal vendetta here (and like Teeny said, if someone was, there'd be better channels than ILE to attack someone), so I think making trolling as hard as possible would actually get rid of most of it.

Currently mods can ban usernames. Others can block IPs. I don't know of anything tied to email address but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Trayce OTM.

(Another point is that if many more spambots get onto it then the mods will snap and it'll go regs-only whether you like it or not!)

Do you even have the slightest notion how much I've been hurt by this morning?

My wife died four years ago today. I do a long post on ILE every 25 August. It helps me get through the pain of the day. It is therapeutic. It is important to me. Until today I never had any trouble with trolls on these threads. And it feels like somebody vandalising the grave.

And you're saying to me that I should expect this bullying and emotional terrorism, and if I dare raise my voice in objection then I'm a killjoy?

Fine. I'm 41. I'm a middle-aged widower. I hate fun. If you bothered to read my post, it is all about my attempts to "change the record." But then I wonder what's the point in changing the record when every time I try I get kicked in the stomach?

If that's the way ILx is going to be, then you're welcome to it.

Honestly, be it jealousy, or outrage at hypocrisy (my own or anyone else's) or what - but I cannot help that I *am* irritated about the fact that numerous times, in the past, when I've been "personally attacked" and I've asked for moderation or help, I've been told "it sucks, but just shut up and ignore it" (albeit in more flowery terms).

One poster - who has been guilty of more random attacks on other posters than almost anyone else here - gets one anonymous troll making a stupid comment (uncalled for and insulting, yes, but not particuarly personal anywhere near the level that regulars have attacked people on occasion) and suddenly there's 300 new answers about whether we should change the very nature of the board.

What else has triggered this debate, apart from this apparently isolated incident? ILM getting hit by the poker spambot? I mean, the only time in the past few months that I've really wanted to make ILE log-in only was when an anonymous troll posted violent and disgusting images to the "photos of Liz" thread. And to be honest, I don't think registration would have stopped a cunt like that.

But I am *very* loathe to let one person change the fundamental nature of an entire board - be they an anonymous troll or a hair-triggered regular (myself included).

Anyway, take this with as many grains of salt required, bearing in mind the long-standing antipathy, and fear of double standards which has made me doubt my right to express any of the opinions above.

But honestly, take a good look at *why* we would change ILX before we do so. Because as annoying as they are, I don't think anonymous trolls are the problem here, and I don't think that mandatory registration will change it.

Wow, here goes, I'm hitting submit. I'm sure I'll regret it. I know it will x-post but I don't care.

I am saying no such thing! I realise perfectly well why you posted what you did, and understood the reason for it. My post also was not specifically about what you posted today but was more in reference to how often some posters willingly put VERY PERSONAL INTIMATE INFORMATION on here over and over again. While I dont think its a good thing at all, it *will* attract sharks.

So why, on the sheepfuxor thread, did you say of both Kate and myself "change the record guys"?

Pub e.g. ILM where anyone can join in, ask questions, pop in and out at will

Club, i.e. the proposal, where the wide range of subjects under discussion are open to those who represent their opinion, and have the grace and the stature to actually register their name/alias/membership against it.

It might be worth a try.

I'd be surprised if Marissa hadn't registered, she's posted a lot over the past month.

Maybe another board? I Love Everything and Everybody? ILEE?

xpost, so I'll continue...

The post in question was a drag, rather than an out and out offensive, but then I'm not Marc, so I can't legislate for that.

Kate, what triggered the off-board discussion is that spambots have been, and continue to post to threads on ilx, also a thread appeared to have been started by a spambot on ile a day or 2 ago, also a spambot appears to have posted a pr()n image in ile quite recently. Spam tends to multiply, generally.

I'd like to know what Momus thinks - and to see if that wandering minstrel makes any analogies between registration and immigration controls.

Because I'm tired of seeing people (theres a few who do this) who go on and on about all the negatives in their life, all the bitterness, never the positives - who react like a rabid dog the minute anyone dares make a comment or jibe at them. And some people (I dont know who, but I could make some guesses) clearly are entertained by the sport of TEASING people who do nothing but dwell on Bad Things, and then REACT to them!

I know, I know - "dont read it then". I never ever normally comment about this kind of thing, because frankly I feel rude doing so, but... well.

I suppose if some people feel compfortable with posting about all their personal miseries, fears, and failures in public, then thats as it is. I dont for a moment understand the impulse, however. I have sympathy for peoples loss and pain, but I dont understand inviting it into a spotlight.

I'm not going to comment further on any of this, clearly it isnt a good idea. I wish you all well.

and another thing. The fites between Marc and Kate at least had the virtue of being their stated opinions, and occasionally a point was made and then accepted (once in a while). Whereas an anontroll can come on here and metaphorically poke someone harder than even they understand, saying something even they don't actually mean or care about.

If registering removes the spam, that's good enough for me.

CRW never registered (i presume) but we all knew who he was and he still could register but chose not to as that was an option.

I dont even know what point I'm trying to make either.

xpost: and Trayce thirded

"All these worlds are yours, except ILM. Attempt no landings there"

I am now definitely in favour of login-only if anonymous-to-most-users posts can be created easily.

I'm also assuming that the board will remain readable to the logged-out.

Like other people, when I've received personal attacks, a lot of the time it has been from registered users in any case. Nonetheless, users shouldn't be able to hide behind anonymity to attack or provoke others.

(has anyone considered naming-and-shaming the troll who upset Marcello earlier?)

bah xpost

(xpost)

how about naming and shaming the person that started THIS thread?

presumably it is not possible in these cases.

Tom OTM.

This, to me, is what keeps me coming back to ILX again and again. Both to read and to participate. Get rid of this, and you would get rid of me. Which, perhaps, some of you would want. And also, breaking my ILX addiction would be so much better for my career.

So, actually, yeah. Ban these sick stunts!

Oh.... stunts! I thought you said somthing else...

that goes for Marcello too

I did think it was slightly ironic that we ended up discussing this on a thread started by an anonymous arguably-a-troll, and possibly the same one who upset Marcello too.

xpost: What Ste Said.

I'm sorry, Marcello, this wasn't so much directed at you (and your nasty trolls) but the less harsh remarks made to other people. I have had a nasty troll - though I did know who it was - and I know how hurtful it is. There's no way you can avoid the pain and sadness when someone aims straight for the heart. I managed to *switch off* because I knew where he was coming from, so I knew it wasn't really *my problem*. Does that make sense? Maybe not. I just wanted to say, sorry, I just didn't direct the blunt remark to you. I know how hard it is for you. But again I don't want to see you taking steps back just cause some idiot makes one idiotic (?) remark.

It would be worth trying it for a month...

1) The spam bombs would reject, and after a month would presumably stop trying
2) We could vote to return to the 'old way' afterwards, if the place got dull.

you rarely hold back on what you want to say.

That's the irony. You have no idea how often and how much I *do*.

ECT!

A further suggestion though: If anyone is planning a thread and they don't want it to attract anon trolls then they could contact the moderators via the e-mail and ask them to set it so that only those logged in can post to it. This would probably be quite tiresome though, and slow the server down even more depending on how often it happens.

*or possibly not

You're right, this is funny.

Again, only one or two elusive mods can actually deal with this issue.

-- Trollish Republic (wonderburyN...), August 25th, 2005 2:21 PM. (later) (admin)

haha it's like you GET THE JOB YOU PAID FOR!!
amount of work put in reflects i. mods' salaries, and ii. the boundless love and respect mods are afforded

I'm not sure the pub analogy really works well enough, though I did use it once long ago whilst bickewing with CRW.

i don't know why e-mails from the server do not get through to people, but i do know that it isn't the norm. it is pretty much essential that accounts are linked to e-mail addresses. if the server can't get an e-mail through to that e-mail address, what can we do about it?

it's like a pub where people take their clothes off sometimes

1) Random people whom you can't see or detect aren't constantly eavesdropping on your pub conversation;

2) Your random pub conversation isn't being indexed by search engines.

3) Writers who get published in major media outlets across the US and Europe aren't telling people to go to your pub specifically to crash your pub conversation.

If you want to post private/sensitive stuff about yourself on ILE, that's fine. Understand that you are doing the equivalent of posting a signed note about your personal issues on a gigantic bulletin board in the busiest hallway of an always expanding dormitory.

TITTWIS = miniature version of the pub inside itself, only made of licquourice

Hi dere!

x-post

i am quite happy to make another board called ILE 2 that is registered only, but getting people to post there would be the trick

and might have some merits over the "try registered-only for a month or two" suggestion.

Metafilter, which I just glanced at for the first time in years at Mikey's mention, is an excellent example of how an interesting forum can become a stagnant mutual appreciation society by closing itself off. The comments are normative and dull, and there's a separate Meta section devoted to keeping it that way.

And about personal identities. Masonicboom/Kate St.Claire has become identifiable enough as an entity outside of the internet to make this potentially troublesome - yet the issue of changing identities (assumed or otherwise) makes me incredibly uncomfortable.

I would never, ever ever post under the name on my passport. But at the same time, I have a gut reaction of "pick one identity, it doesn't have to be real, but stick with it."

I do understand your 'personal' posts (I'm not quite sure which ones we're talking about here though), I just don't agree that they're a good idea.

Not that I was specifically referring to your posts, so singling me out just then seems a bit odd.

MeFi - which is awful - isn't an equivalent because they actually restrict memberships. My view is that a reg-only ILX would be even lighter on moderation - the Mods have never liked the idea of intervening in fights between two named regulars.

A more interesting experiment might be to make ILE2 the unregistered one!

If you are not rude or annoying, you will never get trolled.

Even half of the random asanine nonsense posts are really just a lame way of showing disrespect out of boredom. They persist because trollers feel like annoying annoying people for kicks. The personal vicious attacks are a response to rude assholish behavior. Nobody trolls nice people.

Other than that, all you'll have is random spam.

This is bullshit. Even Pink Panther, who is one of the nicest people I've met in my life, has been trolled.

I just don't agree that they're a good idea.

Ditto using your birth name on the interweb.

(And I picked you, because you were the person who brought it up.)

I'm not convinced of this.

this isn't true. however, nobody trolls unmemorable people.

xposts

Ha ha, right

Kate, the fact that most posters wouldn't "out" your personal information doesn't change the fact that it could happen. Regardless of what name you put on your posts, you aren't anonymous or disconnected from them and it isn't rocket science to trace them back to you and, by extension, your actual personal information.

I would never, ever ever post under the name on my passport. But at the same time, I have a gut reaction of "pick one identity, it doesn't have to be real, but stick with it."

I completely agree with you on that front, which is why I never log out. If something comes up that I would only post about anonymously, I don't post about it. (See, for example, the utter lack of detail about my sex life or my work.)

Every online acquaintence I had pre-ILX knew me as "deX!". If asked, I told people what my real name was; deX! was more a self-imposed nickname than an alias and I had real-life friends who called me that (in fact, I still do; for pretty much my entire college career more people in my immediate vicinity knew me as deX! than Dan). When I finally dropped that nickname in real-life, I also dropped it online. I don't feel guilty or ashamed of anything I've posted and I would never put myself in a situation where I've written something that could potentially get me fired or cause extreme turmoil in my personal life; I have no reason to hide behind an alias.

And yes, I know that writing that while my display name says "The Ghost of Black Elegance" is practically bathing in hypocrisy but my email address has changed exactly once over the past five years and it's stupidly easy to connect that name to the name "Dan Perry", plus "Dan Perry" is my login name.

EWING UNREPENTANT AFTER SCHNAPPI SEX PICS SPARK STORM

What he said. And what Dan said.

I'm just stating where my own boundaries lie. i.e. - other people do things I'd never contemplate doing in a million years, but I don't reccomend that entire internet forums be changed to accomodate the difference.

Anyway, this is a boring and tedious rehash.

Thanks a bunch!

Sure!

(I think this is a Dan OTM bit.)

I love Continuity ILx (and therefore Imaginary / Elseworlds ILx), though just as a comedy concept.

conclusion i'm a better moderator than all of you haha!!! :)

(kidding: doing a great job ile mods)

Yes, I like that idea: a sort of control group. I don't envision it causing terrible fragmentation of the community really. If the noble registration experiment is abandoned after the month, the two sets of threads could presumably be merged onto one board.

I hope this contribution is unmemorable enough for me to remain untrolled.

????

ie. Noize board, then

xpost

No. Instead my REAL NAME is being used by a guy who like to write stories about fucking dragons and chimeras.

(ha ha, however, when you google my grandfather (please don't) you get the Duke of Fife. For real, unlike the Baronness there.)

http://www.w4l.de/cover/Cover-Church-Heyday.jpg

(Which one are you, ned?) ;-)

ya know i find it kinda annoying that people on ilx, most of whom i consider friends in some way, use my first name a lot when replying to something i posted. but hey, whatever, ya can't win 'em all.

i don't think making ile registered-users only would hurt it all that much, but i dunno. i don't really expect my opinion about ile to be taken all that seriously anyway (though i do value ile a lot! but hey i post on the noize board so we all get tagged with the same brush by certain people).

i don't see any point in starting an ilx2. that seems kinda redundant/regressive.

Hooray!

I think one of those Nabisco Classic threads was revived today.

Sorry, this is bad, how?

Sorry, but I already did. I do like Bootsy, though. Maybe I'll search it now...

There's only like THREE Adams on ILX that I can think of, including myself! What about all the Dans and Marks?????????

I still don't. :((((

http://www.starterupsteve.com/swf/posting.html

They say education solves everything!

Hey, I wonder how many people would either A) Completely flip out or B) die if the internet were suddenly disabled?

But jeeze, maybe the reg thing has to happen, just so as everyone sees what ILX loses as a result.

How about a registered-only forum for "personal issues", which would be off google? I'd probably never read it, but it would give people the choice to do what they want, under the safety of lack thereof of their choice. This would also allow people that wanted to ask sensitive questions without potentially sharing them with everyone on ILX via known username post anonymously here...which I think is a valid concern with the whole "only under your login" idea...

Unless that's a bitch for the mods, in which case, fuck it. Still, either way I'll cast a no vote for "registered only".

Depends on what they break in to say. "I overheard what you were saying, and I had that happen to me once" vs. "CANCER! HA HA!!! LOSER!"

I do have reservations about the registered-only thing, but I feel it's worth trying.

At the same time, lots of the threads on ILE benefit from the joky, mates in pubs feel of the whole place. A separate board would mostly grant those who wanted to discuss sensitive thingies reprieve from some kinds of trolls, and I think there's merit in that. Is it feasible?

Did the registration process suddenly become arduous? I don't even remember registering, when I first started posting -- it was like half a form. They didn't even want my zip code, so it hardly counted.

yes! and its oh so exciting!

http://ilx.wh3rd.net/newanswers.php?board=15

Has it been established that the troll post was made with knowledge of the backstory? Marcello's initial post yesterday presumes its reader has knowledge that recent arrivals would not have.(Granted this only mitigates; the taunting response was hateful regardless.)

While this might be true, I also know I'll never be an insider. So is it me longing to be an insider or is it just me enjoying the company of people who seem similar to and whom I respect (albeit on a 'virtual' basis)? I suspect it's the latter.

If that's the case, then just change the name to "I Love Chummy Backslapping". Or better yet, change it int a mailing list and stop pretending that it's something that it's not.

xpost

Home Truths
What's the matter with this world??????
Denise Lambert in person
late bloomer
a fascinating look inside kate's mind.
The Limits of Free Speech
The sound of 300 pounds of lard banging against the wall...

I love Mojo.

(sorry, sorry =))

What on earth is it pretending that it is?

this Trayce could use some fixin'

http://www.duffgardens.net/img/char/jasperj.gif

*hides*

This does seem like the best solution.

Hiving off various sub-boards for interests only hurts ILX - for example, I've noticed a decrease in literary threads on ILE since I Love Books was started. I don't have the time or inclination to check sub-boards every day.

I repeat, again and again, that random unregistered trolls is not the main problem that ILX faces. It's regulars who cannot live and let live. And no amount of registration or sub-board-hiving will stop that.

(Yeah, I got my own board for my more hair trigger rants. You'd think that people who disliked me so much would see what it was, and just leave alone, wouldn't you? If anything it focused them.)

The only arguable reason that I can see for making ILE register only is the SPAMBOTS.

Maybe instead of bannishing personal threads, ILX should start an I Love Flaming board. Oh wait, never mind, we already have one.

i didn't quite see the point of ILE at first: it seemed too big, too sprawling, too difficult to keep up with. but somehow i got sucked in. again, despite the fact the same names came up again and again in posts, the last thing i found it was cliquey. sure, there are little sub-groups and so on in here - but i've never felt anything other than welcome. then i've met some other posters in real life, and woah: they've rocked as well.

i can't honestly say i think being forced to register would have put me off. i think i registered after my very first post, just to save me having to type my name in again. like casuistry says: it's not like it takes more than ten seconds. but i think those ten seconds might be enough to stop some people posting in the heat of the moment. and forced-registration would certainly stop the spambots.

everyone can read; only registered users can post. surely that's the model. it would mean people like me had a chance to get a feel for the boards before getting involved, and would deter casual dickwittery and spam.

but hey, don't mind me. i'm still new :)

Separate board for "personal posts" = stupidest idea evah.

i actually favour lots -- who generally have to do next to nothing, but there's always someone around to swifty snip out and suppress anything particularly anonytwattish or cruel or tasteless* --- but for specific historical reasons the System AdminGod favours a v.small number currently

*(marcello's thread was about the fourth anniversary of laura's death: whoever it was infested it to jeer at him was NOT a regular and in particular NOT a noiseboarder, i gather)

i am in favour of lots of low-level admins, but this is up to the board admins - they can grant low-level admin'ship all they like. as a site/code admin i don't want to get involved in that

i HATE the way the noize board is all admin. the code is not really up to it, and if you want an exercise in anrachy like that, there are other servers. just my view - i'm not going to stop it existing.

i agree with tom that a TRIAL PERIOD would be a good idea.

QUESTION. would any of the admin/creators of another minority board (like I Don't Mind E...) be up to a spot of renaming of their board? possibly temporarily during the trial, and possibly beyond that to become "ILE Unreg'd" for good?

people would still be able to read threads they found via Google, the only difference is they would have to create a username and password in order to post, just like every other big msg board out there. HOW DIFFICULT IS THIS? not very. come on. people only don't log in because they don't have to. if they have the choice between posting some actually USEFUL info to a thread and not doing so because of the 30 second reg process, if they choose not to then what they wanted to say can't have been that important to them or anyone else.

Alan, if not you, who can actually go ahead and implement it?

- stop anonymous trolling; if someone's having a go at you, you should be able to find out who it is.
- stop spambots
- make it easier to block persistent trolls

the POINT of registered only users is that YOU CANNOT RELIABLY CONTROL WHO DOES AND WHO DOES NOT POST BY ANY OTHER WAY OTHER THAN BY REQUIRING REGISTRATION.

setting up account after blocked account is POSSIBLE, but it's much more of a break on that sort of behaviour than allowing non-reg/anon posting.

Also, please leave Ask Dr. Freud alone as well. I love it, it's like a lost luggage department for random lost dreams. Strangely beautiful.

true love can blossom in the land of the pink penguins

(Random code request - is there any way that we could set a personal timer on ILX? Like, ban yourself for 8 hours or something for those of us who have no self control whatsoever not to click the little orange bookmark. I know this is probably next to impossible but my god would I love it. Or should I make friends with mine own sys admin?)

the point is to provide an OPTION for threads to be a bit more gated, not to magic away all crackle of dislike or conflict between posters -- if someone wants to contribute but finds himself locked out s/he can i. register, or ii. start a "non-registered" and open-to-all echo thread

such threads MIGHT be SLIGHTLY less likely to mutate (but mutation mainly comes from in-group playfulness not out-group assault)

i forget the line on personal attack threads but as an issue it is already totally covered

But the "registered-only threads" solution would still leave the board open for both anonymous personal attacks (just because they can't attack you on a specific thread doesn't make it that much easier to tolerate) and spam, so I don't think it would solve much of the problems we're discussing here.

i haven't been a mod for like 20 months so i don't know what the exact practical line currently is

anonymous personal attacks being spammed onto OTHER (ie irrelevant) threads are also deleted generally (if spotted) --- non-anonymous personal attacks (= low-level interpersonal feuding) the mods leave to the posters in question to sort out as grown-ups (exception = aja/dante who maybe possibly weren't grown-ups; posters so obsessively into one another as "foes" that they just can't help themselves) (= eg orbit and chaki)

1 that for a period of 8 weeks starting on a date not yet decided that we make ILE reg only.
2 during this period one of the minor boards (Shed Seven perhaps) will be renamed ILE2 (or something like that)
3 when the 8 weeks expire we re-open to non-reg users for at least 4 weeks
4 in that 4 weeks we debate whether to go back to reg only based on the experience
5 we either go back to non-reg users or do not bring this up again for a long time

after "a long time" we can go through the same process. which we do now anyway, but without the experimental period

would it be fair to have the 4 weeks contemplation include use of "thread starters can make threads reg-only". which gives me plenty of time to add the code (though actually it's pretty simple i think)

(We are mere mortals with puny branes unlike you.)

Honestly, you should have been there, it was hilarious.

*(= ordinary anorak i think)

i consider my scheme a partial or in-between option, that's all: it would have protected marcello's laura-thread for example, and seems worth testing by trial

logged-out's many hilarious escapades it would not protect, however

(yes obv it has to have its own trial period)

I demand that I be made queen for a day!!!!

(Demanding something does not mean it will be done.)

-- nathalie's pocket revolution (stevienixe...), August 25th, 2005 2:46 PM. (stevie nixed) (later) (link)

http://ilx.wh3rd.net/newanswers.php?board=93
http://ilx.wh3rd.net/newanswers.php?board=97

When do we want it? IN DUE COURSE!!!!!

(new thread if you actually require a vote.)

(Now that I'm a mod of mine own board, do I get to be a 12 foot lizard? Do I? huh?)

I CONTROL ILE

I was surprised to hear some bring their laptop to class so they can chat with friends (outside class)?!?

i suggest that a change be hacked up to put the noize board posts in a different sql db so that the table locks don't clash. only disadvantage -- thread moves either lost or made more difficult. if a hackaround can be made for thread moves, then we can put ilm and ile on difft dbs too. this could be v.v.v.v. handy for the server!

I still don't. :((((

-- the most mysterious regular ilxor (curtis.stephen...), August 25th, 2005 4:28 PM. (Curtis Stephens)

Administrator Added

Curtis Stephens now has these privileges on the All Noise Dude Summertime Fun Board and Pickle Bar board:

Categorisation
Board editing
FAQ editing
Can pass on privileges

I'm against this idea for many reasons.

- anonymity is not always a bad thing, sometimes it lets people say what needs to be said but otherwise wouldn't be
- it won't stop personal attacks, callousness, calumness or stupidity
- many of those in favour have used the very same tactic to personally abusing others in the past (so fuck 'em, basically)
- pity the poor Logged Out amd his/her traumas. I appreciate that the admins could always trace IPs and find out who most Logged Outs were, but we trust them all to respect the desire for anonymity. To have to register & log in and then post pseudo-anonymously whilst actually logged in (when everyone in the inner circle knows who you are) pretty much defeats the purpose. I'm not particularly keen on these Auntie ILX threads but they are obviously a big part of what ILX means to others
- freedom of speech (or freedom to be a cunt, even). I know this isn't some utopian nation state and I accept that a level of moderation/control is necessary in a community such as this - but as many long standing ilxors have said (read the 'car crash' threads linked up there ^^^ somewhere) - to restrict access serves only to make ILX a less interesting place.
- you are never really anonymous on the Internet, if you think you are then you really need to pull the plug

Marcello is rightly pissed off with whatever cunt chose to anonymously make light of his suffering, and I fully support the removal of the offending message(s) - but isn't that enough? Moderators exist to take action when the need arises: the need arose, action was taken. Do we really need to rethink the philosophy of the board as a result?

(all of this means nothing if spambots are a big enough problem that change is necessary, of course)

((I've read this twice and it seems to me there's grammar in there somewhere, apologies if I'm wrong))

And, as it happens, there is a feeling among the mods -- I will not claim universal, but a clear majority -- that there is enough spambot trouble to give this a try.

Let me reemphasize -- to give this a *TRY*.

I am not, bluntly put, impressed by the sky-is-falling arguments being advanced that this changes everything, that the idea being mooted destroys an aesthetic irreparably. It is an experiment that can be revoked. In fact, to be honest, I find the idea of two months to be a bit much -- I'd suggest one, or maybe even a couple of weeks.

But I still believe the idea is worth trying. Because even if it fails miserably then it is at least clearer *how* it fails miserably -- suppositions may be thoroughly correct *or* incorrect on both sides of the argument. And unlike, say, oh, I don't know, some bit of power-politics somewhere in the world near the Tigris and Euphrates rivers these days, nobody's going to die because of a brief experiment, to put it mildly.

Hyperbolic in terms of comparison? No more so than some of the emotional gamesmanship that's been played here by many posters where understandable objections are being swallowed in impact by a series of "OMG END TIMES!" responses.

The world will not end.

Trial the wee trial by all means and see how it trials out, but don't come running to me when you end up the most posting poster on JUST ANOTHER MESSAGE BOARD.

(I've bitten my beer soaked tongue more than once, trust me, it's in my cheek)

1.) I would stop registering new names, so you'd rid yourself of one "troll"

2.) Every other forum I belong to is REGISTERED ONLY and, you know what? People are reaaallly civil there, myself included.

What about them? They can have a login as "TOMBOT", "strng hlktn", etc. Whats the difference?

spamkilling rationale for registering = acceptable if last reasonable recourse
trollkilling rationale for registering = unmitigated bullshit.

-- ---- (--...) (webmail), August 27th, 2005 1:22 AM. (later) (link)

OH LOOK ANOTHER ANONYMOUS WUSS WHO WON'T BACK UP THEIR WORDS. Fucking lame, are you afraid of me?

"almost certainly" despite mods repeating they weren't. ok 100% juice.

is there a reason the mods aren't acting on jon's spamkilling suggestion beyond 'jon suggested it' or 'we don't really care about the spam'?

See? Mr. -- ---- obviously understands how to stir things up a bit, and obviously knows how to log out. Thus undermining his weakminded point, and illustrating how futile this whole "anon-trolls will be weeded out" attempt will be.

I used to be such a nice boy...oh well.

multi xpost...

But again, whats the problem with doing it? "It wont help" is less an answer than "heres how it can help, actually". Esoteric "oh it might ruin discourse" strawman arguments are total faff.

Trayce, I like being able to post to a thread in 30 seconds from any computer ever. I like being able to post from my phone with no cookie support. I like an angry googler to be able to post, still angry from having DMB disses, without the anger-soothing wait for a registration email.

i like to post anonymously on threads about drug use.

And hair dye.

And my Snake 2 score.

OK, now my analogies have all gone spasticated, LOOK WOT YOU DONE.

Fair enough, so make a nice vague anonymouslooking login name! :) Pretty easy - you can get like 5 gmail accounts and use one for "you ain't seen me" posts. I know I would if I had to.

Disclaimer: I have never ever made a logged out post. If I dont want someone to know who I am, I shouldnt be posting it on the internet.

Yes?

Who On Earth Is This Bosko?

Snake and Snake 2

otm. i mourn for the random unpredictable element that will be lost. RIP GARU G

but really i'm not gonna get too worked up about it. repeat mantra: "it's just the internet"

-- Mikko (henri.koivist...), August 1st, 2003 9:28 AM.

hahahahaha

-- snake master (snaki...), May 21st, 2004 10:33 PM.

an optimal but not feasable solution for coding and performance reasons would be baysian for non-logged-in. a feasable solution performancewise but a pain-in-the-ass for (some) users would be a simplesimple captcha for non-logged-in. it could be on a "post" page following the main thread page even, so it would only be activated when unregistereds post. img libraries are a mild pain in the ass and small performance hit so we could even go with a basicbasic text only capcha which would work as long as it was unique to ilx. i.e. "type the word [blah] into this field: _____" (fieldname could be something deceptive even like "url" to trik spambots even more.

so yeah this would solve spambots alone.

but honestly i don't mind a generalized "you gotta register to post" mentality tho i think in some ways it would be a fairly weak troll deterent and make ile more "cozy." and i don't mind coz ile is fuggin huge already so if it cut down on volume some, so what.

& i don't ultimately think that it would deter worthwhile if touchy regulars all that much coz this board shit is addictive.

1) not logged in
2) a url in post
3) matching keyword

How many not logged in people are discussing links to sites about poker?

anyway the problem is that as you said it wouldn't mean "too many" false positives. i went into this some on the mod board. ANY is too many, and the *possibility* of any is messy enough coz what happens when the p*ker spam becomes h**ker spam or bukk*ke spam or p*nis extender spam or blahblah and once the precedent is there more keywords keep getting added and the possibility of false positives keeps increasing.

without too much more work we can have a *clean* solution.

look, one v. great poster at least who i'd hate to lose once threatened to quit coz the ilx htmlfilter at the time was killing pasted text quoted with the > convention and it confused him and he didn't come to ilx to be confused so fuck it.

and especially if we do this and then if it ever fucks up only a v. few people will rememeber and understand WHY it fucked up.

so then you go and create a page that sez "yr. msg was not posted BECUZ etc" and next thing you know its more work and it still doesn't solve the general case!

without too much more work we can have a *clean* solution.

uhhhhh, we're only talking about filtering ONE FUCKING CASE for now. It seems silly not to when it has already wasted hundreds of people hours thinking about it.

Can I ask two simple, easily answerable questions, that might (happily or no) expediate this discussion>

A) This change has already been decided upon, I assume? Would it be possible for a mod to simply post that this is going to happen, at which point I can direct my anti-reg attentions elsewhere? If the decision is set in stone, so be it...I would rather not continue to rail against what is already set into motion. A clear statement of the actual reasons behind the change (spam/trolling/iron-fisted control of the masses - kidding) would also be nice. I'm not distrustful of all y'all, I just want to know why this issue came to the forefront and was acted upon. Also (not to be snarky), please don't claim that it is due to the will of the collective masses or whatever. Because I think that it's obvious that it isn't, and my (and others) posts above seem to point to the fact that not everyone is in agreement.

B) Could a mod also clarify how this post-experiment voting thing is going to work (how/when/will non-registered users be allowed to vote/how many "participants" are required to make the change) to assuage my worries and speculations?

Thanks much. I will gladly trade my vitriol for factual information.

By the way, if the topic is still open to discussion for this "experiment" happening, I vote no again.

a) it's not about your peace of mind, it's about the peace of mind of posters who are more important than you.

b) given a, why would they have wasted any thought on b?

(Oh wait, the "leaders" were the ones that brought up voting. My bad, holmes.)

See, that's what I actually dislike, the saying that anonymity means you have something to hide as though it's a negative thing. I have nothing to hide, but there always moments/persons who don't want to see the change because anonymity is better than being registered. Some people have a problem with being trackable. They prefer to be untraceable. Remember when N@bis*o's mother found ILX? Secondly it helps nothing against trolls. "What's in a name?" I mean, a troll's problem is not his name but his/her attitude. Another thing that is actually really interesting: People don't realize that this will make a change in the sense that it's a step towards more control. There's more power, how will that be used? Now it's far more laissez-faire about the whole board.

I dont understand why people are taking this personally.

Huh, I don't take it personally. But you have to realize that people can feel pressured, threatened by the change. If you feel strongly about your anonymity, why not take it personal?

I really like how everyone says we'll take a vote AFTER the (YEAH I KNOW THE TEMPORARY) change has been made. WHY NOT NOW?

I love how people jump on the nay-sayers.

i realize it, but so what? it's only a message board, it's not like ilx is going to take away my social security or my right to have an abortion.

Uh dude, we're part of a community. Alan may run it, it means jackshit if you don't have any posters. So you're basically saying that the naysayers have zero worth because they don't agree? Dude, like I said, I prefer a vote. I guess next you'll be saying that the majority has agreed that this change has to be made. Well, then, I want to see a vote.

But hey I know, I'm worthless here.

i realize it, but so what? it's only a message board, it's not like ilx is going to take away my social security or my right to have an abortion.

If it's *only* a message board why make all these rules? When are there +500 answers on this thread?

Personally I don't really care for myself but on the other hand I can see the naysayers' reason why they don't want it. I completely agree with Nabisco et al. The funny thing is that this won't change the atmosphere for the better. It's as though control can do that.

-- morris garage (theundergroundhom...), August 27th, 2005.

Democracy = fucking the minority !

I'm just a lurker here so i really don't 'count' in this community mathingy but FWIW, i'd like to voice my humble opinion on the registration debate.

There are certainly advantages to registration-only messageboards. The most obvious of these is you're getting rid of spambots, which can only be a good thing. Registration is also supposed to make it harder for trolls to play their game. This is where it gets tricky though. From what i've seen around here (and elsewhere), most trolls are actually regulars, people who for one reason or another like to push other people's buttons, thriving on the outrage resulting from their chicanery. They're having a field day right now, thousands of posts in their 'honour' as it were. Do you really believe registration will discourage these people ? If i were an attention-craving malevolent hobgoblin i'd relish the opportunity to sneak my way into your new registration-only playground-for-grown-ups and piss in your coffee.

What then ? ILE will be missing out on the fun of taunting random googlers (admit it, it's fun!) and the regular trollers will still be around, buzzing like the angry hornets they obviously are. And while some trolling is definitely tasteless and beyond good spirit, i for one enjoy the occasional outburst of dissent around here, because wit is mostly sharp and entertaining, as is the honest anger. It's like watching a text-based version of Big Brother (with added knives) !

On the other hand, ILE is notable for it's high amount of very personal, heartfelt outbursts more than any other board i've ever seen. This is what makes it so special, along with he general high quality of posting (present one excluded). But i do believe that people doing this kind of livejournal thing on a board as public as ILE should realize they are vulnerable to trolling, flaming and harsh comments. It also seems to me that most people around here are perfectly capable of doing that, and that this whole discussion is based on the complaints of a very vocal minority. It's like a club where no-one can drink beer because there's a frigging designated driver in the house who desperately needs but can't have a shot of bourbon (or possibly some E). Okay, bad analogy there.

What i mean to say is that registration can prove to be a can of worms that had better been left closed. I for one fear that it will result in even more useless metatalk, accusations and generally irritant behaviour.

Just my two cents, nothing further to see here, move along now

But roughly speaking ILE is an open online community. So the question is - is there a tension between the idea of 'open' and the idea of 'community'? Well yes, and everyone on ILE has different ideas of what the ideal level of that tension is. Some people like the random googlers and the 'oh crazy internet' stuff a lot more than the 'typical' ILE discussion. (Some, but not all, of those people basically don't like ILE very much). Other people like the idea that here is a place where you can talk politely about anything and find the random shit really aggravating or even hostile. Others are basically NIMBYs, loving a bit of Smedley but not when it lands on a thread they care about.

But the thing is, the answer to "What makes ILE special?" is the 'open' bit AND the 'community' bit. Saying "fuck your cuddlez" is no solution. Saying "fuck your open-ness" is no solution either. What to do?

A very important factor in all this is the removal of the 'make new boards' ability. I don't know where it went, probably it was eating the server, but it was kind of crucial because it was the mechanism by which a large community could split peacefully rather than stew. ILX is big, public, prominent and growing: sometimes it is going to fragment. (eg the Noize Bored founding which I think was unequivocally a Good Thing).

Anyway, after sleeping on it and reading all this I've changed my mind a little. I still don't think a reg-only trial would have very awful consequences BUT where the objectors clearly have a point is in saying we should get the current system working better before doing anything so drastic. (This is my distilled version of Remy's, Jon's, Ethan's, Blount's etc. posts, minus the shouting on both sides.)

So here are my suggestions on how to improve ILE.

1. Try Mark S' suggestion and make 'reg only' an option for all threads at time of posting. The thread-starter would also have the right to request this retroactively on the mod board.*

2. If this is too costly in terms of server efficiency, start a new registered-users only board now before any trial on the main ILE.

3. If at all possible, restore the 'make new boards' function, maybe with admin approval for new boards to prevent people spamming the server, so to speak.

4. Rewrite the FAQ so it's a lot clearer about what Mods should or shouldn't do and how to use the Moderator system. So clearer policy on personal attack deletions, moving feuds to Aja/Dante, when threads can be deleted etc. Also so that people understand the difference between Coders, Admins and Mods and who is responsible for what!

5. More Mods on ILE.

6. Iron out any problems with registration, though I think currently it is about as user-friendly as it can be.

7. Keep deleted posts on the server for a little while so that decisions can be appealed.

8. If, come (say) January, we've done these things, the Mods can call a vote on whether to try full reg-only.

I don't understand coding so I'm staying well away from the question of adding spamblockers to the code.

Also

9. Give me the moon on a stick, as I realise I'm probably asking for some big rewrites of code here.

*(An even neater and no doubt server-busting solution would be to simply give thread-starters mod privileges.)

Actually, OK - this I really like. Think of it like LJ, where you can moderate yr own posts and threads, but not other peoples. Agreed, it probably would be server-busting, unless someone out there with real nous could code it in.

I can help feeling maybe all the code needs a do-over by the sounds of it, but I Am Not A Coder so dont mind me.

So the question is - is there a tension between the idea of 'open' and the idea of 'community'?

It would seem that way. I remember the deep dark days when S*n*st*r went through the same sort of debate, and I remember ending a post with something along the lines of "it's a big internet out there, if you don't like it here, go elsewhere, or start your own message board, this list isn't your personal right, you chose to come here and you can go elsewhere if it isn't the way you want it". I sort of feel the same here. There have been a large number of people who have been here for ages that I could cheerfully slap for being irritating tosswipes, but there are similarly many more that my life is better for having in it (in real life, or just as a presence on the board that offer me something in terms of opinions, views, insight, info, humour, that I wouldn't have elsewhere). Sure, I would like to delete all stupid and irritating people as well as the offensive ones to enhance my enjoyment of ILX, but it ain't going to happen. Because some of the people that make my blood boil are well-liked regulars, and I find some of the trolling and random google-fests funny (not the Marcello and Liz type things, obviously), and I can't very well call for them to be banned because I don't like them and stupid trolls to be left alone because they make me laugh. So I leave it up to the mods. You can't please all of the people all of the time, surely you can all see that.

FWIW, I think the mods, by and large, do a very good job, but yes, there should be more of them.

(the appearance of the Nursery was during the year I spent off S*n*st*r, so I think I missed all that)

I would volunteer to be a coder but for two reasons: I am unsure whether my own SQL experience would translate well to optimising MySQL code; and I am unsure whether I have enough spare time to usefully spend it hacking ILX.

(xpost)

But yeah, I must say, maybe a whole board where people can talk about whatever they like is a go-er... wait a mo, wasnt that why ILE was invented!?!

then people can see only threads they want to see (basically the "category" function, but one that doesn't have 5000 different categories and thus people will actually use)

not whatever they like!!! sensitive subjects only!!!

Would that mean everyone could have their own New Answers showing all threads from their subscribed boards? That's good idea too, although I think it would need some easy way of distinguising which board a thread was from.

(yes, I know, rewriting the code is probably easier than setting up that sort of thing)

posting new questions is still the same, you'll need to specify which board you're posting to (no default - for one thing it'd slow down stupid threads OMG THIS CAN EVEN GIVE RISE TO A "I LOVE COPYCAT THREADS" BOARD!!!!!) cos otherwise it'll go to the wrong audiences etc.

xpost haha!

Don't we already have enough problems with ILM threads going to ILE by mistake? ;-)

or maybe have different avatars for the threads.. and avatars for users!!!

OK KIDDING KIDDING

Because we don't get poxy fuled enough?

To serve no particular point: Marcello's the only person who (believing himself to be logged out) has shit on me in the past few months. And when I wasn't irritated ('cus I knew he was in the midst of some weird flip-out thing) he seemed to want to top himself and correct my grammar. So way to go with the hypocrisy, Donny Smith!

xpost well yes perhaps if someone is actually going to implement this new fancy improvement i suggested then some effort should also go into making the queries work properly so that it doesn't poxy fule innit. i mean duh.

It can mean anything at all, and sometimes the opposite of anything at all.

Most of the time a picture is a visual illustration of or counterpoint to what a previous poster is saying or what the thread overall seems to be about. Sometimes it's trying to accuse a certain poster of posters of being (like) something.

I think the picture of the evil stepmother falls into the last group.

http://www.rocktoons.com/strokes/strokes.jpg

Especially considering this has been voted down in the past!

Ken, this is just abandoning the concept of separate boards - which I approve of, but you are one of the people who has taken things off to separate boards, and it's meant that, for instance, I no longer read or talk about wrestling on ILX at all. Also, none of this has anything to do with any of the problems under discussion, but you may know that and just be bringing it up anyway.

This indeed has nothing to do with the discussion, but I'd like to say that I agree with Martin on this 100%. The more boards that are created, the more topics I never read about. Ken's idea of a "Your New Answers" page is a brilliant one, but I imagine it'd be pretty hard to do. It would certainly provide people like me with an incentive to register, though....

Name
Email address
Webmail link
Date
Time
Username/Info page link
Permalink
Admin link
IP address

Sorry for being logged out, but I'm very sensitive right now.

Thank goodness for anonymity!

AMON R U ADMINS?

People who are too lazy to click on the little links on the top of the screen to check out other boards: C/D?

I thought only mods could see this? Who cares anyway? I realize you could compare'em but it's of little relevance.

The only thing I miss is an edit function. I would very much like to be able to edit my posts. But that's probably a poxy fule attraction, no?

6,000 registered users

56 logged in users active in the past five minutes

i've always wondered how many 'regulars' there are i.e. people who post at least once a week or so. my working estimate has been in the 300-400 range but that could be way off in either direction for all i know

God, I'd have put it as less. Far less. Like 5 people.

Something like fifteen of the regulars are just my socks.

Of which you're one? (xp)

And I've usually got my foot in my mouth.