Secularism vs xmas FITE!

What would you suggest that isn't religion-, calender- or hemisphere-based?

Christmas card with manger, wise men, donkey -> religious.
Christmas card with santa, gifts, tree -> secular.

-- Theorry Henry (miltonpinsk...), December 8th, 2005.

otfm

does paganism not count as religion? 8)

(also this doesn't work in southern hemisphere where it isn't winter)

What would you suggest that isn't religion-, calender- or hemisphere-based?

I didn't suggest it shouldn't be calendar-based. 'Season's greetings' would be fine, although it's a bit ugly. Not everyone's Christian and Christmas is a religious festival – it might be 'secularised' in that many people are not religious but still celebrate it, but it is associated with a particular religion after all.

It's not exactly a new debate, but it is a bit frustrating trying to explain to colleagues how I think they could be a bit more inclusive. (Diplomatically, obviously)

They're marketing the mag I write for. I just raised it as a sort of point for discussion but the discussion got pretty animated. 'PC-gone-mad' was a phrase that did crop up.

People are retarded.

In Lambeth, we don't have Xmas. We have winter lights that go up at Diwali and stay there until New Years.

As a vaguely religious person (or at least someone whose family are devout Christians) I actually understand that secularisation of Christmas to be about "lights and DVD boxsets" is actually pretty offensive. But rather than this whole "Jesus is the reason for the season" and "put Christ back in christmas" malarchy, I'd rather make the whole winter festival secular and non-denominational and leave individual religious celebrations to the individuals.

Oh no it isn't!

OMG! So Michael Jackson really IS 8 years old...

"This is censorship at its most basic level and political correctness to its extreme," said student Ryan Dahn.

This was last year.
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Vote2004/story?id=308996&page=1

Okay, stop right there.

Xmas isn't religious!

what is a non-religious version of easter?

not that it's that difficult. just have random 'bank holiday's instead

but why would they be sending a card at all?

WHERE THE TITTIES AT????

HI DERE WEHN WAS JSEUS MADE?

One thing I find really strange is when people ask me, 'so do Jews really not celebrate Christmas at all?' Depends on the tone of voice – being interested is fine, being incredulous is different.

1) food
2) beer

http://www.theexperiment.org/media/ohreallyLG.jpg

-- ken c (pykachu10...), December 8th, 2005.

Spring Festival? You know Easter is a pagan fertility festival anyway right...? (Easter = eastre = Estrogen etc)

and the whole "rabbit & egg" thing, too.

like 12/25 is actually jesus's b-day.

like the early church even celebrated it.

like everybody wears a name badge with their religion on it so you know what holiday to wish them. (would it be in poor taste to make a nazi reference here?) seriously... do we wish our brit pals happy independence day? i know nobody cares these days, but... sorta stupid yes?

like happy cultural imperialism season everybody!

like, and oh, and one more thing... xmas vs. christmas... xmas shouldn't be offensive to christians. x was commonly used as a marking for jesus in early chrisendom.

words schmerds. who for some emphatic grunting and cave paintings?
m.

Then I find it odd that non-christians like to use this making reference to the cross instead of just a name.

huh? who actually does this?

mmm, babka.

i think "peace on earth" rules. a generalized holiday about giving and thankfulness... "peace on earth" seems like a great gift to wish for.

santa?
m.

it was certainly started due to that.

kingfish, every single person that says "Xmas."

ah.

article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4097755.stm

like x0rmas

xpost yes, if all of your customers are Christians and that is who you market to, then you are fine doing Christmas cards instead of holiday cards, obviously. I should've included the caveat for those places that sell Jesus shooting hoops and playing keep away with children figurines.

http://ck37.image.pbase.com/image/38604246.jpg
http://www.husney.com/~jordanh/gallery/albums/Pictures-People-Unknown_or_Candid/01_Halloween_Dinkytown_Revenge_of_the_Nerds_Boy.sized.jpg

[insert business name]
Customer Order Form
Product                   | Qty
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[] i accept the terms and conditions of this order
From time to time, we will send out cards/gifts of goodwill, customised to your religious prefereneces, please specify your religious preference below.
Christian/Catholic/Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist/Pastafarian/Other (Please specify _______________)

(xpost: i was waiting for ken to come up with an acronym meaning, but oh well)

here is why they use lambda:

the lambda soon became a quick way for the members of the gay community to identify each other. The reasoning was that the lambda would easily be mistaken for a college fraternity symbol and ignored by the majority of the population.

ha!

Without Christ there wouldn't be a world adorned with lights.

(note: link best read whilst beat-boxing)

in the absence of the foregoing, however, then all i can conclude is that this is a B.S. issue.

well, that certainly cleared everything up. thank you.

http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5171

http://www.probe.org/content/view/84/91/

"Happy Holidays" comes from a kind of super-polite pluralism -- like, "you can celebrate anything you want here, and we won't even presume to expect it to be any one holiday, because we want you to be comfortable and equal." And in doing so it undercuts one of the major things some people like about Christmas, which is that it's pitched as the one time of year during which we're "all" supposedly thinking and feeling the same things -- not just the people you know and in your church, but supposedly everyone.

christians who want religion mixed in with their politics play the "PCness is violating my religious rights" card. you'd hear in circles about how gay rights has been opposed because fearmongers are convincing christians that if gays have rights, then saying from the pulpit, "homosexuality is a sin" will be decreed hatespeech and thusly could be outlawed etc etc. cue gays everywhere. cue your kids and grandkids are going to hell. cue fire. cue brimstone.

culture embracing divorce. culture embracing casual sex. and now culture enforcing tolerance and language.

to me it's just spreading irrational fear to pump people up to vote.

the "happy holidays" thing is something to get people's minds off torture, scandals, wars, etc.
m.

the "happy holidays" thing is something to get people's minds off torture, scandals, wars, etc.

partially. I think there's a coupla other bits involved, too:

(1) one of the Fox guys actually has a book out about this, so he's gotta keep beating that drum. It's nice that they employ the secular symbol(decorated tree, etc) and frame it as "the Sacred Christian Holiday"

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1595230165.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

(2) they gotta keep playing the "persecuted"/"oppressed" card, for the whole "righteousness thru martyrdom(without actually being martyred)" bit. Because when you see yourself losing the war, as it were, you're given license to cheat.

(3) some of these folks are even all a huffy about the white house putting out holiday cards. The choice quote from that article is from the Rev. Bob Edgar(former Dem congresscritter):

"I think it's more important to put Christ back into our war planning than into our Christmas cards"

I'll repost this from yesterday, about a rather in-depth Salon article talking about the bullshit of the entire deal.

the "happy holidays" thing is something to get people's minds off torture, scandals, wars, etc.

partially. I think there's a coupla other bits involved, too:

(1) one of the Fox guys actually has a book out about this, so he's gotta keep beating that drum. It's nice that they employ the secular symbol(decorated tree, etc) and frame it as "the Sacred Christian Holiday"

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1595230165.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

(2) they gotta keep playing the "persecuted"/"oppressed" card, for the whole "righteousness thru martyrdom(without actually being martyred)" bit. Because when you see yourself losing the war, as it were, you're given license to cheat.

(3) some of these folks are even all a huffy about the white house putting out holiday cards. The choice quote from that article is from the Rev. Bob Edgar(former Dem congresscritter):

"I think it's more important to put Christ back into our war planning than into our Christmas cards"

I'll repost this from yesterday, about a rather in-depth Salon article talking about the bullshit of the entire deal.

That's not a secular symbol. It's pagan.

Say, how did Frosty the Snowman become a Christmas dealie, since the story is set in late winter/almost spring?

I usually say 'Happy Holidays' but I will say 'Merry Christmas' on Christmas day. I don't believe in Christ so when I say it, it is in memory of all the happy Christmases I have spent and a partial recognition of pre-Christian Northern European religio-cultural ways for dealing with the cold and the dark. It's a cultural relic and I don't see why wishing someone a Merry Christmas has to imply any more than saying 'Saturday' implies that I worship the Roman pantheon or 'Friday' implies that I worship the Germanic one, or saying Good Bye implies that I believe in a deity.

shucks.

"What? We already had the Lighting of the Christmas Tree, so we're lighting all the menorah candles today. What's the big deal?"

Seriously. Turning Christmas into one more goddam culture-war cudgel is so grinchy. But I don't think they're gonna get much traction. Killjoy moralists have been bitching about Christmas for one reason or another for a couple centuries, and it's just kind of gone on its merry little way. We like our winter lights and parties.

What is the difference between being offended and having a cause?

What are your sources for this?

Oh bullshit, Nairn. Please. Give it a rest.

cf. "the identity politics playbook"

Nairn, where are these anti-Christians? How is The Man keeping Christians down?

(And don't point the finger at me. Some of my best friends are Christians. And they're adorable when they celebrate their holiday. All that singin'... A very musical people...)

(xpost)

You're under no obligation to do so. Accepting that there's anything here to debate just means that the asshats have already won.

yeah, it's gotta be pretty bad for the Christians, since their don't control the Presidency, the Supreme Court, or any of the state & federal legislatures. if ONLY they had some elected officials championing their cause.

"No religious reading, instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or practiced [in the elementary schools] inconsistent with the tenets of any religious sect or denomination." --Thomas Jefferson: Elementary School Act, 1817.

I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State." --Thomas Jefferson to Danbury Baptists, 1802

At least that's the kind of organization that groups like the Alliance Defense Fund are responding too.

Nairn. Please. Give it a rest.

comparing the extreme Christian groups to the moderate non-Christian groups doesn't give one any real insight.

should be "they" etc.

Can you cite a specific situation in which the ACLU has actually repressed or opressed Christians rather than merely standing up for the rights of people of other religions?

Well, Hurting, don't you remember that one time when the ACLU barged into a school a coupla years ago to beat a student for handing out candy canes with bible verses on them?

Hell, the ACLU even put out press releases promoting the victory against this martyred child and that they thirst for the blood of every firstborn male child in Christendom!

It's great that guys like Jerry Falwell were there getting on the ACLU's case. Also, at Renew America. Or Newsmax.

Etc.

You're telling me!

talks about TJ & John Adams expressing their personal creed: "Be just and good"

xpost exactly.

OTM. all of my grandparents were born in america -- you could argue that this makes me "more" american than some chick in second-gen scandi chixor in minnesota.

for a lot of people, jews are pretty far from being regular americans. we've had to struggle through A LOT (not just in america, but throughout world history) to get the purely theoretical equal footing we have today. but hey, we still write "caucasian" on all our forms just like real white people.

ugh... sorry, just woke up from a nap.

m.

Seriously, though, I can't believe you're asking me for a source on the contention that (duh again) part of the purpose of holidays is to openly reinforce shared values and beliefs and forge social connections among the people celebrating them. I also can't believe you'd pick that, of all things, to argue with, seeing as that's basically a compliment, or at least me trying to empathize with the Christian point of view and figure out what exactly about their experience of Christmas is being diminished by saying "Happy Holidays." And the best I can come up with is that it's totally warm-and-fuzzy reassuring to feel like everyone around you, the entire society, is being bathed in the spirit of a feel-good holiday, and that no matter how much we disagree or are suspicious of one another, at least we can all unite and agree about this one basic thing. That's a really natural thing for people to want. But it turns out that we don't all celebrate the same holidays, and so it's just basic courtesy not to try to force other people into your "everyone loves Christmas" tableau, in exactly the same way that it's basic courtesy not to cram apple pie down the throats of people who don't eat apples. (You can thank me later for not using "your mom" in that analogy.)

By "funny," I assume you mean "entirely predictable."

But yeah, states are full of fun stuff. Tennessee state constitution, Article IX, Sec. 2:

No atheist shall hold a civil office.--No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this State.

The other people disqualified under that article are ministers -- because they shouldn't be "diverted from the great duties of their functions" -- and duelists.

Thomas Jefferson helped create a country that I (still) really like living in.
I would think John Calvin is one of the people with the biggest influence on the creation of America.

Really? I don't see his signature on the Declaration of Independence.

That the influence of Christianity is not as bad as it appears if you just look at all the complaints about it.

That the influence of Christianity is not as bad as it appears if you just look at all the complaints about it.

I don't really know what you mean by this. But I'm assuming you mean that nobody has any genuine complaints about Christianity, they're just being haters, and if anyone does have a complaint it isn't really about true Christianity cos that's about eternal salvation and not about oppressing people. Well excuse me for suggesting that religion in general and Christianity in particular (among many others) have caused some of the world's biggest problems and if I associate religion with bigotry and oppression, I don't think I'm too off the mark.

Pastafarian!

http://intempestiva.blogsome.com/images/pastafarian.jpg

Christians can say "Happy Christmas" to each other.
They can also say "Happy Holidays" if they're in a secular environment and give a shit about offending people.
Non-Christians can say whatever the fuck they like and shouldn't be under any obligation to say "Happy Christmas" but really shouldn't get too uppity about "insensitive" Christians saying it.
Corporate/government/presidential greetings that are not aimed at an entirely Christian audience shouldn't say "Happy Christmas".

Fair enough?

I lived in the midwest so long that this got me all hot 'n' bothered

http://www.cineclub.de/images/1996/fargo.7.jpg

Once again, and i'm typing this knowing that it will fall on deaf eyes but I'm put it out there anyway. Clarifying that a form of Christianity is "biblically based" is a non-starter; ALL forms of (modern) Christianity come from the bible, including the liberal/spiritual progressive forms of it. The different sides tend to emphasize the different parts of it, and only one of them tends to be honest about the fact that different interpretations of a (repeatedly) translated text are possible.

When conservative politicos use that phrase, it usually works among the same lines as it does in the Left Behind books; trying to separate the True Believers out from everybody else, claiming to be the only correct group with authority, etc. "well, my views come from the bible! so obviously I’m correct and we should go ahead and cut that funding for food stamps."

You keep saying "Christians" do this or that, but you are defining Christians in a way that lets you argue the most. I dislike mostly everything that you say "Christians" do probably even more than you, but I don't take those negative things as representative of Christianity or Christian ideals like you do.

What? You mean that using the catch-all term "christians"(and, by extension, describing something as "christian") can be inaccurate as it refers to several different flavors of beliefs amongst over a billion folks on this globe? Whodathunkit?

Hooray.

Laughing my head off.

It would be equally defensible to credit Hengist and Horsa since 100% of the founding fathers spoke English and without H & H we'd be speaking some form of Brythonic.

http://www.tattoofun.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/ultimatedecals/UD0013sm.jpg

xpost that Calvin at the cross thing gets me so bad - "Ahh, Calvin, after a lifetime of peeing on Ford logos, you must eventually get right with God"

But, as BN mentions, perhaps folks were so used to associating bootleg Calvin stickers with the back windows of american pickup trucks that it seemed natural to extend it to other things that scamp Calvin probably wouldn't do.

yup, i'm with you on this one.

"For over two millennia, Christmas has carried the message that God is with us," President Bush said at the tree-lighting ceremony.

or...

President Bush today displayed a marked but hardly surprising ignorance of the history of the Christmas holiday, while participating in a pagan ceremony derived from ancient midwinter sun worship.

President Bush delivered a coded message to his base, who care less about the appearance of solecism than the appearance that they are the Party's chosen people.

But this particular imbroglio here has precisely NOTHING to do with "the influence of Christianity" - on history, on the US of A, or on seasonal customs.

This has to do with the influence of douchebags. I'm agin'em.

What is wrong in this photo?

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/12/images/20051206-4_p120605kh-0147-515h.jpg

President George W. Bush participates in the Menorah lighting at the White House with Rabbi Joshua Skoff and members of the Skoff family, Tuesday, Dec. 6, 2005, prior to the annual White House Hanukkah reception. White House photo by Kimberlee Hewitt

The notion that the Founding Fathers were nominal adherents of a Christian faith isn't in question. Nor is the Puritan legacy of American Exceptionalism.

The notion that the Founding Fathers were crypto-Fundamentalists with a literal belief in the King James Edition is ludicrous.

It's also as beside the point as Constitutional Originalism. Dude, the Founding Fathers of Rome were understood by custom to be of Trojan descent and raised by wolves, but Italians today don't howl at the moon or root for USC.

xpost

a) It isn't Hanukah yet.

b) If it were the first night, you'd light one.

c) You light right to left, you dumb motherfucker.

And even Originalism does the "Christian nation" crowd no good. As a zillion historians have pointed out, if the drafters had wanted Jesus in the Constitution, they would have put him there. It's not like anyone was stopping them. The ACLU was not at the constitutional convention.

It was just the history of the guy spending years of pandering to a particular subset of conservative protestants(the same set whose leaders are trying to score political points in the current commercialization drive for Xmas) to then actually admit that, oh yeah, there are actually other religious folks around here.

Plus, that's one big-ass menorah.

Two Georgia lawmakers filed bills Wednesday that would expressly prohibit government agencies, including school systems, from barring their employees and students from saying "Merry Christmas," "Happy Hanukkah," or any other expression relating to the celebration of a holiday. The bills probably will be debated in the 2006 legislative session.

exactly. I think this is exactly why they held that ceremony. "Hanukah is basically a jewish christmas, right? And we had tree lighting ceremony yesterday, so let's light this thing up tonight."

I mean, hey, at least they did this, that's a start. But it does speak to the whole massive cultural ignorance thing going on, like the "explaining Sunni/Shia distinctions to the guy during the 2003 Super Bowl" thing.

But so you know who fucks this up, though: Christians themselves! They're the only ones who take it too far. They're the only ones who can wish you "Merry Christmas" in some sort of cold meaningful way that implies there's something wrong with you. They're the only ones who'll use their holiday as a big open door for evangelism, and they're the only ones who have the opportunity or inclination to totally lord their holiday over everyone and generally be dicks about it. So if we have to ask public employees not to start up with the Christmas talk, it's not because there's anything wrong with saying "Merry Christmas" -- it's because there's always gonna be assholes who take it way too far and start cramming Jesus down everyone's throat, and so the only plausible rule becomes that everyone just has to shut up about it altogether.

yeah it's just a prophylaxis ain't it 'cause if you let 'em start saying "Merry Christmas" next thing you know they'll be asking "what's wrong with wanting to start a discussion about the REASON FOR THE SEASON" and believe me, speaking as a former nurse who once saw his in-charge telling a guy who was experiencing auditory hallucinations to "let Jesus into [his] heart," if you let people get started with that stuff in workplaces or schools they'll be up to all sorts of monkeyshines in no time

1000% OTM.

as is nabisco -- precisely NONE of this would be an issue had the jesus freaks not made it one themselves.

To make this even more convoluted the church explains that god is omnipresent, therefore you dont need to be in a church on christmas to have him with you. If thats the case, why go to church ever??

Anyway, Jesus is going to be super pissed when everyones a no show for his birthday party.

Because it's important to be part of a "community of believers" or "body of worship" or what-the-hell-ever for teaching, support, fellowship, and accountability.

And I would guess that cancelling services for Christmas Sunday has to do with an interesting movement toward making a priority of family time, which is a sort of heartland-interest thing but not necessarily a religious one -- just that people's schedules are getting crowded (work, school, kids' sports & extra curriculars, etc) and various communities/groups of parents have started "fighting back" by putting for ex, family vacations ahead of Junior's football practice and getting Coach to agree, or not scheduling PTA meetings until after the general dinner time, etc.

Months after this got out and starting circulating, the expatriate reversed himself and said it never happened.

http://www.crooksandliars.com/images/2005/12/04/FoxWarOnXmas1.jpg

i really miss the christmas eve service. and the advent season stuff. we go to a church that's sort of obsessive about first century practices and since there is no santa claus passage, we don't really do anything special other than a fellowship christmas party in early december. it's fun, but lacks the general spirit of the seasonal treatment you get in a methodist church.

m.

also, about that crawl, Larry Johnson wrote about that kinda thing today. "Shia Pets for Christmas" & whatnot.

oh well, close enough.

Not to mention the home of the guy with a book to flog. But yes, Fox. Is there a word for typos you make with your brain?

ok, then our differences are reletavisim and absolutism. I believe there is an absolute true Christianity as defined by God. Relativism falls into infinite regression easyily. I'm starting with the absolute fundamental of God and how he reveals himself. Man do faultily interpret things and there are many differences between men, but I believe there is an absolute truth and goodness that can never be reached in this world, but can be strived for

I'm talking strictly about what actual Christians in my country do and believe, in practice.

Yeah, it is frustrating seeing the picture that other people (and the media) often paint about Christianity because I rarely see that from actual Christians I know. But I guess I tend to flee from "false prophets" as much as I can. Anyway, I agree with you.

I think as far as any reasonable person is concerned, Christianity = the beliefs and actions of the body of Christ in the world.

The thing is that a big Christian belief is that Christian actions will be faulty because Christians are humen and sinful. Pointing at all the sinful actions Christians do as a justification of disregarding the ideals is not valid. A doctor is not for healing the sick. Christianity is not for healing the righteous.

Generally I like to jump on board with criticizing all the faults in Christian action because those are things they should improve on, but when venturing into theology I'm still an absolutist as in beliving in the inerrency of the scripture.

re: Calvanism. I would think the idea of depravity of man leads to checks and balances and not letting too much power into too few people. Also see the Puritans and Mayflower Compact or read some primary colonist sources ( http://www.homeschoolacademy.com/vlibrary/ACL.htm ) to see how much the basis of the America government is in Christian thought.

Also, the part where Benjamin Franklin advocates the paper bag rule for banging old broads is still funny 300 years later!

"...covering all above with a Basket, and regarding only what is below the Girdle, it is impossible of two Women to know an old from a young one. And as in the dark all Cats are grey, the Pleasure of corporal Enjoyment with an Old Woman is at least equal, and frequently superior, every Knack being by Practice capable of Improvement."

LULZ. These Christians know how to party.

shouting, "we tortured an elf," trying to bring up the talking point that the Nazis banned christmas, etc.

all great fun in this culture of ours

the world would be a much more enjoyable place if "Hail Satan" was a common greeting.

http://www.jbmconsults.com/movcbk.html

"xmas, as in malcolm x-mas!"

NSFW.
m.

"Activist Judge Cancels Christmas"

see, it's not just the juxtaposition of black slang and Charlie Brown that's funny all by itself. It's the inventive use of (as far as I know, totally invented) black slang.

christmas is over evolved and all u secualar atheist/non-christians can treat dec 24/25th as a another day, just dont ruin it for us.......im sorry if it seems unfair, but how do u think i feel when i cant hear merry christmas in the malls anymore......now its all happy holidays and flippin seasons greetings..........wtf.....how hollow is that........it doesnt take a genius to realize that this world with out the the love of christ is gonna get any better.......jesus is the ONLY way and im not being bias cause i was raised by a jew and an atheist and now i cant imagine my life without christ.....

so please, do urself a favour, get ur opinions on all this religions shit out of the window and realize that christ doesnt want us to follow him in a form of formal religion, nooo, he just wants to help u and develop a friendship with him and guide back to our heavenly father.....look, im not a freak......im engineering genius with an IQ much greater than 99.4% of the population....with that being said, listen to ur heart and have faith for a man who had faith in his father's people.....he died for us, i think thats all that matters.......

amen

merry christmas

I'M SORRY I'M SORRY I KNOW IT'S WRONG TO GENERALIZE AND THAT MANY OF THE WORLD'S GREAT THINKERS WERE TRANSFORMED BY THE MESSAGE OF LOVE THEY FOUND IN CHRIST'S TEACHINGS BUT ON THE EVIDENCE OF THE PAST THIRTY YEARS OR SO, SHIT HAS GONE STRAIGHT TOXIC

first off, if it wasnt for christ, there would be no such thing as freedom of speech and democracy.....if u dont know what im talking about, think of all the countries that have communists laws or very 'crappy' political systems or very limited freedom.......china, n korea, saudi arabia, etc etc, what do these countries have in common? the majority religion of these countries are not christian...i can go on and on about this, but im faithful that no one is dumb enough for me to explain further

second, if it wasnt for atheists and their 'hollow'/white dry bread lifestyles, i wouldnt be so greatful that i am a faithful and devoted follower of christ (note i didnt say christian).

yes i believe religion just like many things has its 'ups' and 'downs', but all that matters is what u can take out of it, not how well u can follow it....right?

think of this: it might be geographically bias, but picture a hurst towing a U-HUAL, or lugguage being thrown in with a casket, does anyone ever see it happining? obviously not.....why? because its blunt that when u die, these things have no value, all u get to take with you is ur soul.......not the DVD boxsets or the creative secular things u filled ur life with to avoid feeling hollow.

if i had to summerize all this, what i have to say is this:

the moment ur out of ur mother's womb, we only being to start aging and dying....what varies us is how long we live and what we do while we are 'alive'....things will happen to us while we are alive and we dont have any real control over that, however we have control over what do about these things.....this is what develops our character/soul/mind.....our true selves....being secular doesnt necessarly make u a bad person, but it makes that jorney back to 'death' much harder and longer and much more confusing....now when ur 'dead', ur so-called judged.....givin that u've 'experienced' life to the fullist and 'lived each day like its ur last' u should be able to come up with some 'nice' answers to whatever God might wip at you.....now just incase ur being 'judged' and ur a so-called atheist, or a jew or a muslim, buddist, christian, whatever, u should be able to answer these questions much like a student in a course writing an exam, everything on the exam should be do-able, its just a case of studying correctly, hence, living ur life correctly...get me point?

anyways, i dont know if im writing too much, im getting tired and im cooled and i think that by the time i check this site again, i will get responses from all walks of beliefs and ideas.....but its not gonna change my christ

cheers

any canadians bytw?

condescentarianism

so thanks my dicitionary!

tell us more

first off, bringing up the past.....the democracy back then was based on social status and cutting off body parts if laws were broken..don't give me the bullshit idea that 'true' democracy occured before christ.......even christ himself cured the cut ear of a man who was talking back to the solidiers in the garden....ever watch 'passion of the christ'?

anyways, this whole government thing is all bias thoughts considering that i am canadian and i live in the best set country in the world.......look at the city of toronto, the most diverse etnically, culturly and religously..(stated by the UN)...its crime rates are so low and its all due to the canadian democracy..(not saying its perfect, but its the best out there)....and if u have taken any history, u know the fore-fathers of the canadian government were all greatly devoted men who were followers of christ...all doing things that reflect christs passion and love for his people....

ok, so anyways mr straight toxic and whomever is reading this, im not here to give my 2cents.....im just here to say the truth and give hope to my self and others when i/we feel hopeless.......im not a person who drinks, does drugs nor do unlawful deeds when im feeling confused and depressed.....im a guy who prays, asks his mom and dad for help, and looks for the face of God in everything and anything that is around me.......i keep my opinions simple because theres no need to over explain the truth

i hope that one day u can develop a relationship with Christ and realize that all problems in life are not really problems when u find Christ.........ever watch the movie 'It's a Wonderful Life' by Frank Capra....it's an oldie from the 40's, but gosh darnit its great and shows u what life is all about......

anyhow,

merry christmas

any other great movies people recommend?

It's either Ned Flanders or born-again Stuart Smalley.

really? tell us more

Turner & Hooch
The Crush
Seven
Hudson Hawk
American Movie
Liar, Liar
Amistad
Disclosure
Sgt. Bilko

For an engineering genius, I am surprised at your inability to grasp this simple mathematical concept: if your IQ measures in the 99.4 percentile, then it is not "much greater" than someone whose IQ measures in the 99.3 percentile.

But perhaps this boasting was more an expression of your emotional insecurities than your intellectual prowess.

Merry Christmas!

And there, in a nutshell, we have Rom's Christmas message for us all. May he do a little better next year. Amen.

im sorry if it seems unfair, but how do u think i feel when i cant hear merry christmas in the malls anymore......now its all happy holidays and flippin seasons greetings....

I don't understand. If you think non-Christians should not find it irritating when you wish them a "Merry Christmas", why do you feel offended when someone wishes you a "Happy holidays"? This makes no sense.

Is a wish for your happiness an insult where you come from? Is a cordial greeting a grievous sin? If they are not, then what is the source of your offense? Perhaps with all your brain power you should neditate on this for a time until you can make sense of it for me.

As far as I can tell, he seems to be objecting to not being allowed to dictate how other people should celebrate things; which is hardly a democratic sentiment.

Rom, quit trying to save my soul by force or I'll kick you in the fucking nuts.

Osama's Homo-bortion Pot & Commie Jizzporium.

This is a fun exercise! Please explain me:

a) Nazi Germany
b) Tsarist Russia
c) ancien regime France
d) etc etc etc blah blah blah

oh yeah. Their Day-Before-Christmas sales are always Teh Suck.

anyhow, the only reason why i came on this site and why my intial entry contains signs of anger is because prior to that entry, i just came back from the mall and while i was there, i was in a store (american eagle) and as i was paying for my purchase, i said thank you and merry christmas, and when the girl wanted to say merry christmas back(seeing that she was wearing a cross), she hesitated and said 'merry holidays' confused whether or not her manager that was standing next to her was gonna get mad if she didnt follow company policy and say 'merry christmas'.....thats what got me pissed, and as soon as i got home, i googled 'fucking secularism' and this page was in the search result.....so there you go......thast why i was pissed off and i hope no one quotes me cause quoting me would just prove that you have no argument of ur own, just a reaction to what i say, and if u dont have anything original to say, then dont re-iterate what i did, and no, i wont explain what i write in my comments, i stated above before that i am so-called condescentarianism ...whatever

anyways, merry christmas and i hope you all see the light of christ

and just for the record, to whomever wants to 'kick me in the nut', go ahead........i can practice my football and rugby skills on you considering its the off season and i havent channeled my physically strength on anyone yet for a while ;), besides my girlfriend :)

cheers all and merry christmas.....and like i said, bring on the 'yangs'

-rom

Looking forward to next Christmas, when they shall be taken to the Colosseum and made to fight lions for the amusement of fucking secularists.

But big ups this year to rugby-playin', laid-gettin', Canadian Christian geniuses everywhere. Have you mentioned how rich you are yet?

Merry Christmas e'eybody

not to mention their never-really-all-that-well-hidden anti-semitism.

Yes. Christians are certainly oppressed in North America, Rom. They are brutally forced to say pleasant and happy things to customers, even if their secret desire is to be pleasant in another, slightly different way.

all i have to say is that your stupid 'quoting' ability is hypocrysy

So you say. But why? How did we distort your implicit message of good cheer, which absolutely included calling us all fucking retards and telling us about our presumed shortcomings? I'd really like to know more about this hypocrisy you found.

But, please, wait until later. Have a merry christmas first, then there will be time enough afterward for explanations.

im sorry to all those who got offended by me saying 'fucking retards' i didnt know i was dealing with very sensitive people who are not able to see past that, but im sorry anyhow and like christ taught his people, i hope u can all forgive me for saying suck foul stuff.......but then again, i did explain that and because 'Aimless' QUOTED this, i must explain further :)

but my house is full of people and family who are all here to celebrate christmas and to celebrate what we have, each other in christ.

merry christmas and i await for 'yangs'

bytw, 'Aimless' why do ur comments coinside with your such a name 'Aimless'?

eh?!?

I myself dont care, but atleast someone on this site knows what he is talking about

bytw, who is ali g? and what is mensa, sounds interesting

carl

mensa.org will explain to you what exactly mensa is

and i too dont know who ali g is, im glad i sound like him, must be a cool guy.....lol

-rom

happy new year, everybody!

it's not gonna change my christ!!!! Delightful :D