why is it acceptable to disparage the white (british) working classes?

This is why I really hope Cruddas gets the Labour deputyship, it's kind of ridiculous that we have solely one politician in this country who actually understands the reason that the BNP are on the rise in this country is because of the tacit loathing of the white working class from the British establishment.

as with your 'fat girls' thread the other day this was discussed to death on ILE years ago.

i think this is cobblers really. upper and middle class stereotypes are disparaged just as much (by those who indentify with 'working class' obv, to generalise), but they have more power/influence so it does less 'damage' perhaps.

I'm not sure Dom's correct, I think some ministers have realised that for a LONG time (David Blunkett ffs), but they viewed the solution as pandering to their prejudices rather than addressing their real concerns.

Where is this great disparaging of the middle classes in the British media?

xp

I'm not sure Dom's correct, I think some ministers have realised that for a LONG time (David Blunkett ffs), but they viewed the solution as pandering to their prejudices rather than addressing their real concerns.

Well yeah, I meant recognising that and actually having a constructive approach to solving it. Otherwise I'd be praising one-eyed homosexual Nick Gri... ah, you know.

I heard JB, on Church St., moaning about all the beads and pushchairs with playstations attached.

"as with your 'fat girls' thread the other day this was discussed to death on ILE years ago."

got a link?

i cant rummage through the archives for everything i want to post about. the fattism one didnt seem worth searching for and this one, i did actuallt search for 'chavs' but didnt come up with much.

"Where is this great disparaging of the middle classes in the British media?"

i didnt say media did i? i just said in general.

There's also a very New Labour reaction against what they perceived as a very Old Labour lionisation of the white British working classes. It was considered good rhetoric to swing the other way because it played well with floating voters.

(And disillusioned Tory voters)

When hasn't it been "acceptable" to disparage the white working classes?

When has it been "acceptable" to equate chavs etc with the entirety of the white working class population of the uk?

probably over the last 5 years

The right-wing press pushed the "underclass" idea very hard in the 80s/90s - the message being that there was an essentially redeemable working class (who wd aspire to property ownership, electoral participation, financial betterment) and the irredeemable rest, who policymakers basically shouldn't bother with (and who taxpayers could by implication resent).

The pikey/chav thing seems to me a pop-cult version of those ideas but it's now spread much more widely (and softened as a term of abuse, as far as I can tell "chavs" has just become what students use instead of "townies" - the heyday of anti-chav jokes, viral emails etc was at least 2 years ago)

Here are a couple of old ones. There were others:

People who moan about chavs
http://www.chavscum.co.uk/

As we know the 'underclass'/working class divide is a dance remix of the Victorian concept of the undeserving/deserving poor. But at present we are entering into a dance remix of feudalism, which is completely fucking dangerous.

BAN DANCE REMIXES

criminal justice vs simian

pikey was a specific thing i think, and townie was basically a town'n'gown thing wasnt it, used by students to describe, uh, non-students (realise it spread a lot further than town'n'gown places but the form is the same)

chav is so widespread and so all encompassing that it has come to mean all working classes. agreeing with groke that it is basically a popcult of anti-poor ideas propogated the preceding couple decades)

perhaps no coincidence that the rise of the chav has coincided with the largest pyramid scheme in decades and the fear of chavs compromising our wonderful new riches

course the 'chavs' are debt free and the middle classes are in more, and increasingly unmanageable debt than theyve ever been, partly for believing the lie that theyve become rich:D

i put an offer in for a pyramid a minute ago but it's gone already.

i don't think 'chav' is any more all-encompassing than 'pikey' or 'townie' were - all three have v specific roots but swiftly became more generic terms

i don't think either "pikey" or "townie" have ever been quite as widely used as "chav". especially in the way newpapers seem to drop the term with impunity, though often a nod and a wink. like that mikey carroll (?) king of chavs fella.

Is there any element of racism in hating on "chavs"? Aren't they usually characterized as having sort of a hip-hop style?

that's true, it still sort of shocks me when i see the word chav in a newspaper though. i suspect that's partly due to the increasing acceptability of slang/vulgar language, even in newspapers - i see slangy phrases on the bbc site, in the grau and so on a lot more than i would have even five years ago, and in editorial as well as quotes! i was deeply shocked when i first saw a bbc journalist casually use the phrase "pissed off" on the website.

Aren't they usually characterized as having sort of a hip-hop style?

yeah but also characterized as white or maybe mixed. part of the derision may be built on 'fakeness' or adopting cultural charactertistcs from elsewhere as a result (similar to 'wigga' in this respect).

indie kids i have known rag on rap/r'n'b as 'chav music', i have heard them.

i dunno if people still say 'trying to be black' anymore. it seems to all get lumped together as 'chavspeak' or 'chavwear'. the slang and fashions have been absorbed to the point where they're spoken and worn by all types with no real regard for the original source of those characteristics.

there's probably still a lot of 'now i'm not racist but...these words and fashions and behaviour is all really stupid' but surely by people of same class as well as those above it.

general middle class people who you couldn't really pigeon hole by music taste i have known rag on rap/r'n'b as 'chav music', i have heard them.

particularly indie kids though.

i dunno if people still say 'trying to be black' anymore

they def do.

i nearly lost it at a party once when this utterly reprehensible indie kid started spouting off about "chav music" and "bad role models" like sean paul, mary j blige, 50 cent et al

general middle class people who you couldn't really pigeon hole by music taste

sure, but definitely between existing musical tribes, there is this sense - of indie being un'chav' music, or indie kids definiing themselves in relation to 'chav' (not all, obv, and probably not even most, but some.)

but indie in the broadest sense IS ITSELF "chav music"!

OH GOD I HATE THE 'ROLE MODEL' CONSTRUCT because I find the application of this in the media a bit crypto-fascist, as it is always women or members of a perceived minority who are urged to transform themselves into one.

Chav comes from 'charver' or 'chavvy' which are based on Roma/ny words for 'lad'.

Sam, tracksuits are sort of the default clothing setting right across the cotchin' classes, whatever your race, but 'chav' is usually taking about a white person.

Results 1 - 10 of about 82 for "chav music" "sean paul". (0.43 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 18 for "chav music" "mary j blige". (0.43 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 179 for "chav music" "hard fi". (0.17 seconds)

Anyway, there's a real dumb danger when it comes to trying to drag race issues into a discussion of class, because that's traffic that only runs in the opposite direction.

This is all from a Freaky Trigger comment thread on a post on emos (hence the "emo vs chav" stuff) but it shows the way "chav" has become a generic high school tribal thing I reckon.

"chavs think emos cut chavs are stupid i hate chavs cos they hate me"

"used to be an emo but my mates advised me 2 stop so i did and now im jst a normal person not a chav or goth just normal"

"My school seems to have more emos than chavs at the moment, so its a rather large number"

"i hate ppl hu take da mik outa emos. not all of us are gay or bi! i actually herd a gang of chavs sayin “there nothin like us so lets just beat da crap out of em n give em summat to cry about”. maybe ppl shud start bein a lil bit nicer to ppl with brains n tell chavs where they can stick there takky berbery. wot da hell is rong wiv u indies aswell. i swear u ave nuffin else betta to do than just say dum stuff like emo is just a cheap immitation of goth cuz as far as i am concerned indies are the attention seekers, not emos."

"wtf is ppls problems?? hu cares? its up 2 them wat they dress like. u all sound like chavs! y duz it bova u so much?"

"adn if ppl wnt to be an emo, leave them be. they may nt like chavs or preps but do u c emos starting up a revolt agenst chavs or preps."

"Emo’s dont slit there wrists, thats just a steriotype.
I actually know quite a few CHAVS who slit there wrists because they are depressed and/or have had a bad life, or something."

Angel13: I think its awesome that they're number one. It would be so cool if decent music was the mainstream and chav music (rap, hip hop RnB etc) was unheard of by the majority (Laughing face smiley gif)

that's from a My Chemical Romance board btw

i thought pikey was specific to gypsies?? or just generally anyone in an ice cream van

I actually know quite a few CHAVS who slit there wrists because they are depressed and/or have had a bad life, or something."

WIN.

my old ice cream man when i was a kid looked like the lead singer of Go West.

they certainly are a very musical people

surely there's a big existential difference between "chav" and "emo" - the latter category includes plenty of people who self-identify that way; the former category not at all

"Chavs" don't self-identify as "chavs", but you get guys who well self-identify as scallies or casuals or wideboys or etc etc etc.

Yes my (very limited) understanding of "chav" aligns them closely to what people here call "wiggas" (a very loaded term itself). Sometimes it's hard to tell whether people are deriding those kids because they are appearing to co-opt another culture or because they are actually racist and can't understand why a white kid would emulate black culture. Perhaps whether or not they use "wigger" is the key.

That emo kids comments box really is the gift that just keeps on giving.

The idea that "chav"dom has anything to do with "black" culture whatsoever is probably the most innacurate armchair sociology idea ever.

and yet

The idea that "chav"dom has anything to do with "black" culture whatsoever is probably the most innacurate armchair sociology idea ever

Dom, I began by asking if this was case and illustrating my very limited understanding of this subject. Thanks for the input.

The idea that "chav"dom has anything to do with "black" culture whatsoever is probably the most innacurate armchair sociology idea ever

quoth mr armchair sociologist himself

also ms misery is correct that "chav" and "wigga" overlap. very roughly and not completely, obviously, but enough for it not to be rudely dismissed as nonsense

How so do they overlap then?

Little Britain and Catherine Tate have a hell of a lot to answer for. Class hatred and covert racism being the defining British comedy trends of the last five years.

don't you have to blame Ali G before them?

Ali G is supposed to be Pakistani though, which confuses matters even more.

Asian rude bwoys have been part of the comedy canon since the Bhangramuffins were created by the Goodness Gracious Me lot.

well Ali G is meant to be middle class isn't he? thou i think Ali G and Borat are racist in certain contexts. In there programs generally not, gues editing in The Sun or gooning with Graham Norton it's definetely just lol at comedy east european / collection of ethnic stereotypes.

*guest editing

I wonder if the changing face of British perceptions of Asians can actually be tracked through comedy, from Peter Sellers wobbling his head through to yr Bhangramuffin/Ali Gs?

This doesn't mean I'll be watching Sanjeev Bhaskar's new sitcom by the way.

but ali g is supposed to want to be black, right?

through to Meet the Magoos?!

but ali g is supposed to want to be black, right?

You're making a joke there, but I remember from an old Melody Maker interview that SBC said Ali G was meant to be British Muslim, hence "Ali".

dunno if it matters. in the end are people laughing at SBC's satirical intentions or just laughing at parodies of certian mannerism used by certain groups of people? the guardian were worried about this in 2001.

dom i wasnt making a joke, im agreeing the character is british muslim

its been so long, i actually have no idea if people all totally agree this is case or not

also, are we really sure that no one self-identifies as chav? in the same way as they would have done as scallies? i have no idea

Maybe they do but more as a provocative act than as a, I dunno, "cultural" one? Then again maybe its the same with kids self-identifying as "emo".

maybe a common part of self-identification (the implication of what you're not)

emo jus means mosher these days right?

anyone not smiling

roy keane?

i have heard betracksuited glaswegian youth dis each other with "ya wee ned" or whatever; so, self-id'ing but with the same disparagement as when an outsider uses the same word

Emos are a more "feminine" take on mosher, but then again the thing with these terms is they always become broader.

xp

jus a few years ago it meant rival schools and jumpers. HOW TIMES CHANGE.

dom, what the hell does that mean?

The modern day youth subculture of "emos" is, as a rule, slightly more a) female in membership and b) feminine in attitude than the classic subculture of "mosher", a grouping that has over the years taken in sk8rs, metalheads, nu-metal kids, grungers, the tail end of greebo, etc etc. However, as with all other terms used to describe youth groups the word eventually becomes used to describe a subculture larger than was originally intended, thus now any kid wearing black is an "emo", in the same way that in the old days any kid wearing black would have been a "goffic" or, indeed, any kid wearing Burberry would be a "chav".

{ admin} OH NO NOT ANOTHER "HILARIOUS" GOATSE MAN ANTI-HOTLINKING GRAPHIC!

lol antilinking graphic pwn.

jus observing my 16 yr old brother's friends it seems emo and indie are sort of collapsing into each other, with stuff like hellogoodbye, fall out boy, the gossip and the klaxxons all seemingly occupying the same place, even hip hop and rnb seems a lot more "acceptable". when i was his age there was little musical common ground between the kids into limp bizkit, the kids into badly drawn boy and the kids into irv gotti. oh apart from eminem. everyone liked eminem.

eminem = the jane's addiction of 2000?

it's funny that emo has been brought up since emo seem to me like it isn't particularly class-related

Little Britain and Catherine Tate have a hell of a lot to answer for.

qft, they're the shittest television comedies ever made (give or take)

i think the arm chair sociologist wisdom is that emo kids are, in general, middle class / suburban kids.

Tracer sorry, my fault, I quoted from the emo thread a lot cos I knew there were lots of posts there showing how kids are using the word "chav".

This thread is a bit like one of those 'understand your child's tribe' articles they print about once every three years in the Radio Times.

that doesn't sound right to me; i mean, goths were all over the map for instance when i was growing up, ditto for thrashers and metalheads

yeah tom! i just mean it's interesting that most music-related subculture categories tend to be catholic about who can be included in the club (some more than others, obv)

I wonder if working class emos/indie kids might possibly be more anti-chav than middle class ones because they are more likely to encounter problems with chavs on a daily basis? Or not, I have no basis for this other than experiencing growing up on a council estate and being an indie kid in the early 90s. I'm using the word chav in the original sense, not the "chav = all working class people" one. What I mean is you can't assume these emo kids messaging about chavs are all middle class hating on the working classes.

ok, fuck, that image up there was not cool.

it's funny that emo has been brought up since emo seem to me like it isn't particularly class-related

-- Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 30 May 2007 15:55 (Yesterday) Bookmark Link

emo HAD to come up the moment chav came up. the whole idea of chav as phenomenon it seems is the intersection between street level youth cult divisiveness and media fueled grown up class / cash divisiveness. "emo" itself is not the issue, leave that to ILM, it's day to day conflicts and their class based undertones that's bubbling beneath this. the problems come when street level jibes become acceptable for the press and lazy comedians.

i heard this documentary about nottingham city centre where these huge gangs congregate; emos / goff, chavs and asian boys was how the three main groups were described. none could quite figure out each of the other groups, so the police took them all paintballing. i don't know what happened after this.

They did a similar thing in Peterborough: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cambridgeshire/4912634.stm

You'd imagine that chavs would have better offensive styles, but the goths would be happier to take more pain, so it's a good Brazil vs Germany style clash.

Never underestimate a Goth with a grudge.

Every time we do this thread I tell people to read the relevant bits in Sound Effects by Simon Frith or Learning to Labour by Paul Willis which both talk about the class divide in adolescent subcultures in the UK. The latter book is pre-punk and pretty much says the same thing about suedes v. hairies.

yeh but it's not just brazil vs germany; there's a third party in there.

"Learning to Labour" is one of the best books I've ever read. I think between that and "Folk Devils and Moral Panics" you'll learn all you ever need to know about white working class culture in the UK.

There was a woman I saw on Wife Swap who self-indentified as a chav. Not the best and most scientific sample I admit.

x-post Robert Elms' 'The Way We Wore' is good on white working class youth cults too.

i thought pikey was specific to gypsies?? or just generally anyone in an ice cream van

-- Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 30 May 2007 14:54 (Yesterday) Bookmark Link

"Pikey" used to mean a crusty, IE the archetypal Levellers/New model Army fan w/dreads, dog on string. At college, assumed to be middle class, & will "clean up" & get a "proper" job on graduation. I first heard the term used abt 15-16 years ago, I haven't heard it used IRL in a loooong time. I'd assumed the subculture had been killed of by lamaquist indie cider kultur sometime in the '90's.

Up 'ere in grim north, the term "charver" has pretty much died out, replaced w/"radgie", which describes behavioural mode - obnoxious/grafitti/vandalism/rude to elderly rather than any dress code. Amazed that the term "chav" is still in use, seeing as it was so widely applied as to be meaningless 5 years ago?

People are starting to have chavpride. One OMGI* to another: 'tch! It is like you was dragged up, not brou' up, innit? Did your muvva not teach you nuffin?" Also witnessed a classic rebuff to the OMGI on the back of the bus who was broadcastin' her business innit and an older couple wheeled around and told her to shut her 100dB 'trap'. Reply: 'IT AIN'T GOT NUFFIN TO DO WIV YA!' Old people: (sigh) 'You mean it HAS nothing to do with us. So keep it to yourselves using QUIET." Girls were vexed but embarrassed into silence. Rest of bus: smirked.

I've read that Elms and yeah, it's much more fabulous if you pretend it's not by Robert Elms.

*OMGI = 'oh my god innit' tm. Emsk

ha i did SOCIAL SCIENCE in a frank kogan stylee last night. asked my bro to show me the music section of his friends myspaces and within a few looks he had described one girl's taste as "chav music". it wasn't really in a mean way thou, the girl was a friend just a shorthand for a mix of pop/rnb/dance/indie. also he was listening to 'lil wayne at the time, which being hip hop should stereotypically be "chav music".

I wonder if working class emos/indie kids might possibly be more anti-chav than middle class ones because they are more likely to encounter problems with chavs on a daily basis? Or not, I have no basis for this other than experiencing growing up on a council estate and being an indie kid in the early 90s

Colonel Poo has hit the nail on the head here. Working class people invented the term "ned" to describe certain other working class people. I don't think I even heard a middle class person use the word "ned" for most of my life. Don't know about chavs mind you.

refer back to the opening question Tom D. when did it become ok for these words to be used by middle class people?

And as somebody else said about the opening question - what's new?

When I were a lad (late 80s-early 90s) the word was "kev" and it was used by everyone, working class and middle class. Whether that's OK is another issue though.

was it used by the papers? was it used by russ abbot?

Good point, I have no idea how much it was used by anyone outside of the West Midlands tbh. Although I think someone said it was used in the South East as well.

All I know about "kev"/"kevin" is it has fuck all to do with Harry Enfield (Kevin the Teenager was given as etymology somewhere) as it predates that character by a few years.

Maybe it was Kevin Turvey?

I wonder if Passantino could make a case for Two Pints of Lager and a Packet of Crisps being the sole postive portrayal of the working classes in British comedy since Only Fools and Horses ended.

Positive? "Still Game"!!

Kev used interchangeably with 'townie' by late-'80s mates from Brizzle. I reckon Neds take over close to Hadrian's Wall. It's like Wayne, Sharon, Tracey - all of which were used, and the term Bedmie was used to describe people, usually female, from Bedminster.

was Yuppie the Chav of the 80s? i.e. social buzz word that CAME TO DEFINE THE DECADE?

i always forget about "Still Game", it's sort of written out of comedy history as it were and i don't find it very funny.

I wonder if Passantino could make a case for Two Pints of Lager and a Packet of Crisps being the sole postive portrayal of the working classes in British comedy since Only Fools and Horses ended.

Red Dwarf.

2.4 Children as well.

George and Mildred.

why was it acceptable to disparage people who acted up to 'yuppie' stereotype?

"because they were cnuts"

why is it acceptable to disparage people who act up to 'chav' stereotype?

"because they are cnuts"

They were lower middle class! Also neither count cos Fools and Horses ended, discounting 2001 and 2003 specials, in 1996.

"When the Whistle Blows"

There were series of both Red Dwarf and 2.4 Child post-1996!

ooh "Pheonix Nights" maybe? i'm pretty sure some folks have argued Kay is patronising about working class culture though.

Nah, I don't like Peter Kay myself, but that's a good choice

These are my rules and both of those programs are disqualified for debuting whilst Fools and Horses was running.

xp

Dinnerladies

yeh that'll do but it was finished before blair's second term began. there was a recent post on robin carmody's blog about how Peter Kay is dangerous in his fetishization of a supposedly more authentic northern culture that dosen't aspire to change. i think i may have misinterpreted though and his worldview is very... interesting.

Robin Carmody's favourite comedy series of the past ten years is "Los Dos Bros".

I made that up.

no shit. he's all about duck patrol.

Could Lex clarify his "also ms misery is correct that "chav" and "wigga" overlap" comment upthread? I'm confused as to how a subculture that, broadly defined, is working class and inherently indigenously white overlaps with a subculture that is, broadly defined, middle class and rejects indigenous white culture.

the overlap comes largely from the adoption of slang, attitude and fashions that are seen as belonging to an imported culture. where Ali G would once have been lazily referred to as a 'wigga' he would not be lazily referred to as a 'chav' or lumped in with that. tho lazy != entirely inaccurate in this case.

i meant 'he would NOW be lazily referre to as chav'

isnt it just that 'chav' has grown and grown in what it covers? by the end of next year, chav will probably just mean british person

aye but remember the 'chav music' thing refers mostly to urbanz beatz

Local parlance round these parts has the 'working class' referred to as the 'chattering class'.

aye but remember the 'chav music' thing refers mostly to urbanz beatz

You see to me "chav music" implies cheap dance, northern house and trance-pop et al.

Local parlance round these parts has the 'working class' referred to as the 'chattering class'.

Oxford

(I've heard the expression a lot)

Chattering classes means middle class liberals!

You see to me "chav music" implies cheap dance, northern house and trance-pop et al.

me too really! but those MCR fans seem to think otherwise so the perception has been altered.

Not round here ..... it's used to describe a certain demographic which is definitely not a middle class liberal!

Emma's 15-year-old brother self-identifies as a chav but is alarmingly casually racist. Partly that's cos we live in a sleepy Devon town where there are barely any non-whites, but even so. Chav and wigga are really not close. He likes cheap eurodance and Arctic Monkeys as far as dance goes. When he was 13 I played him some Can while we played ISS one afternoon.

ISS =?

International Superstar Soccer!

me too really! but those MCR fans seem to think otherwise so the perception has been altered.

I think the average 15-year-old "wigger" (who'd be listening to, what, Clipse, Dipset, Lil Wayne these days, right?) would probably think the same thing though!