Stephen Fry: please explain why this man is a "national treasure"

because he's funny, clever and nice.

and his quote about swearing.

Dude was kinda funny in the 80s, but so was Mike McShane and I ain't see anyone queueing up to get Air Canada adverts released on DVD.

he wasn't all that funny in the 80's, but then again mike mcshane certainly wasn't either.

Dom Passantino doesn't like chubby gay men?

Who knew?

Manning? How so? Is "reactionary" being used here to mean anything more concrete than "guy has a posh accent"?

Fry's "lol waht is pop culture?" schtick is as reactionary as they come.

Yr confusing Fry with Hislop there.

And Dylan Moran as well, yeah. Nah, Fry's is a lot worse than Hislop, at least Hislop sets himself up as this kinda pompous figure when he's doing all that "What's an Arctic Monkey?" steez, Fry's asking for your approval when he does it.

b-but Stephen Fry always seems quite well-versed in popular culture? When did he start becoming all Hislopesque about it?

riffing on pop culture from the outside isn't as pathetic as pretending to 'get' the 'yoof', anyway.

anyway, you could forgive him anything for those beautiful plummy tones.

if you look at the work, there is a marked decline from 'a bit of fry and laurie' to that godawful thing where he's a lawyer.

Worst thread ever (at least for this week). Fry's less reactionary and predictable than 90% of the posters on ILX. He's certainly open and receptive to pop culture, dunno where Dom gets his info from.

the glasgow crybabies will be along in a minute no doubt

god yeah, moran's "hoodies with rappity rap music on their mobile telephony?!?!!?" gig is completely intolerable.

dunno where Dom gets his info from

His arse?

I seem to remember reading years ago that SF was a huge fan of 'Loveless'.

Fry's less reactionary and predictable than 90% of the posters on ILX

THAT'S AN ACHIEVEMENT

He called Led Zeppelin a "guilty pleasure".

Fuck him.

I'm sure he'd let you.

How can anyone get that bothered about the guy one way or the other? He's OK-ish sometimes, I suppose? Not really the sort of person you'd expect anyone to have strong feelings about.

Oh, that kind of "reactionary". I thought it was related to Manning accusation and was waiting for some political dirt to be dished for me to be surprised at.

I haven't noticed that to anything like the extent that Hislop does it (or is happy to set himself up for it on HIGNFY, at least) and I don't see it so much as "gosh what lowbrow filth all that muck is" as "laugh at me for being a fat old posh guy who'd rather stay home with some classical LPs than attempt to stay in touch". But that argument didn't work out too well for anyone on the Ian Hislop thread so I don't expect it to do so here either.

But I don't mind much from people like Fry or Hislop, because they're just self-effacingly exaggerating expectations for someone of their age/background. Considerably less impressed with 30-something Moran dragging out the "oh god there's no tunes and it all goes thump a lot and there aren't any words and i don't like the words there are" thing.

PS I think Fry is, or used to be, great and don't really want to watch him being less than great in cosy Sunday evening series so have not seen anything Fry has done in past 5 years except QI (yes, I know that pretty much is too) and the bipolar and HIV documentaries.

he's probably the jeremy clarkson for people who love to hate jeremy clarkson.

And what's wrong with that?

I seem to remember reading years ago that SF was a huge fan of 'Loveless'.

I saw SF on Clive Anderson raving about My Bloody Valentine in '92 or so.

Burden of proof lies with Dom here. "Fat" I'll give you, the rest needs a bit of support.

(Wagner was also a guilty pleasure of his, btw).

'and what's wrong with that?'

well, nothing. unless you hate stephen fry and jeremy clarkson, in which case i suppose your stuck with louis theroux or michael palin for telly filler.

I seem to remember reading years ago that SF was a huge fan of 'Loveless'.

-- Stevie T, Monday, October 15, 2007 12:43 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

qed

that new palin show is total shite, actually.

Go on Dom, start a thread about how kittens are cunts, it's obviously the next step.

As they say, the stupid persons idea of a clever person.

His poetry and classical music appreciation books are pretty anti-intellectual/downright stupid. Try to read the 20rh C section of the latter.

What happened to the QI club they opened in Oxford? Is it still open?

As they say, the stupid persons idea of a clever person.

jesus, who ever says this? you'd have to punch them.

My brother said it. I didn't punch him. It's true tho'.

kanye west- the white person's idea of a black person

the glasgow crybabies will be along in a minute no doubt

Very good.

He's a telly presenter and comedy actor, he doesn't need to be a genius to stand out from the pack as being a wee bit clever.

I think he's often funny and interesting and knowledgeable and I think he would be good company. His comedy roles, like his novels, have been a bit hit and miss. His doc on bipolar disorder was good. I don't think he's a national treasure any more than I think he's a reactionary prick.

Not really the sort of person you'd expect anyone to have strong feelings about.
Pashmina otm

kanye west- the white person's idea of a black person

Yeah, when white people stereotype black people they always come up w/someone that resembles Kanye.

he's a bit much

I was a bit surprised not to find any mention of his recent two aids programmes, unless I missed it.

I like his new blog, I like his interviews - I'm not so keen on his acting.

Why is he a 'national treasure'? I'd guess because he seems open- minded, reasonable, and has a deft turn of phrase. And -er- it helps that he's an unthreatening a gay person (compare with 'national treasures' - Elton John, Larry Grayson, John Inman r.i.p).

lol aids

One of my lecturers at University was the only woman he ever slept with. She seemed pretty displeased at whatever he said about her in his autobiography.

What happened to the QI club they opened in Oxford? Is it still open?

Arghrgh! I will defend SF on the internet but the QI club makes me ANGRY. The bookshop's still there (or was last time I walked down that street, probably a while ago now) and there's still a bar area I've not dared wander into but I don't know if the club's still going.

I hope not, really, I mean there are plenty of people in Oxford who want to spend money on joining an expensive members-only club of rich elitists who want to sit around thinking how their sophisticated erudite selves are so much more Quite Interesting than people who haven't paid up, but if they're eligible (and I dare say most of them are, or have been here since they were) then surely they've already joined the Union...

(They do at least open their doors for the vulgar mob to see some music nights now but I gather there's hardly any room and everyone chatters right through)

fucking union. go to a pub, cunts.

Not sure whether to read that as a) "you're right, Union people are cunts", or b) "you're a cunt, shut up", so I'm going to got for c) "you're a cunt (but so are union cunts, the cunts)", in which case yeah, OTM.

We should have a superhero themed bar crawl.

it's been done, and it's not as much fun as it sounds

headinhands.jpg

anyway, onimotm upthread.

I like him a lot as a comic actor.
Not so much as a presenter.

Not sure whether to read that as a) "you're right, Union people are cunts", or b) "you're a cunt, shut up", so I'm going to got for c) "you're a cunt (but so are union cunts, the cunts)", in which case yeah, OTM.

-- a passing spacecadet, Monday, October 15, 2007 1:32 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

no no, it's just a).

that's what i said on the crisps thread and got killed for it.

The pub down my street is themed after THE PHANTOM.

No, I don't know why but they spent thousands on it.

Sings in Art Brut?

Billy Zane's name carries a lot of weight in this town.

They don't even have a portrait of Billy Zane anywhere, not even on the toilet door. I HATE those Phantom purists.

Sings in Art Brut?

That's what we call a DIRECT HIT, son.

I finally found out who Stephen Fry is! Apparently I'd been mixing Fry and Laurie with Mel Smith and Griff Rhys Jones, because both of those duos had similar sketch shows in Finnish tv around the same time, and they kinda look the same.

All these eighties comedians look the same to me.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/790000/images/_792543_smith_jones300.jpg http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/images/200/fry_laurie.jpg

uncanny

Fry's expression = "WTF Tuomas?"

Those pics don't show it, but I do think Jones and Laurie do look kinda same. Plus it's been over ten years since I saw either of those shows.

this "lol waht is national treasure?" schtick is as reactionary as they come.

i'd like to see fry and jones work together, they're much more interesting than the other two nowadays.

http://www.jonathancreek.net/images/griff.gif http://www.nndb.com/people/283/000051130/hugh-laurie.jpg

Can someone give me evidence of Stephen Fry being funnier than Mike McShane?

http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/W/htmlW/woodvictori/woodvictoriIMAGE/woodvictori.jpg
http://www.speakers.co.uk/csaWeb/media/pix/h250/BOBDAV_h250.jpg

yes, he made a joke, once.

lol who's mike mcshane?

Fry's less reactionary and predictable than 90% of the posters Dom's posts on ILX.

a guy who was well known for sweating on national tv

xpost

dom's ire caused by SF saying "led zep" was a guilty pleasure on a program that asked him his guilty pleasures? lol

he kicked off on that show by complaining about the premise, and then went on to redefine it as pleasures you don't expect that person to have because of prejudice (class, views on art, etc). and he started with abba, and included swearing and darts. led zep, i have no interest in, but he seemed very sweet on those subjects.

a nicer clip i've seen was him putting Room 101 into Room 101 because he hated people listing things they grumble about, and then listed 10 things he loved instead.

And Mike McShane was in both King of the Hill _and_ Malcolm In The Middle, and to my knowledge has never been an apologist for far right stand-up comedy. So I gotta give the dukes to the big man here.

Can someone give me evidence of Stephen Fry being funnier than Mike McShane?

Cancer's funnier than Mike McShane - tho that may be your point

McShane also outshone Fry on Whose Line, and he was in Office Space. There's no contest.

which one was mike mcshane in malcolm in the middle?

the fat unfunny one

Can someone give me evidence of Dom Passantino being thinner than Mike McShane?

^^^good zing

Thx!!

mike mcshane- friar tuck in costner's robin hood.

stephen fry- funny.

To give Dom is due, it's a toss up as to which anniversary has been most over-exposed on telly this year - Stephen Fry's 50th or India's 60th

dom is due? that explains a lot of his posts lately.

Dom is dew
Dom is Jew
Dom is Drew, as in Carey, lol fattey

Too much effort that one.

no one loled @ scarf yet.

this has to be rectified

lol scarf

What we've learned from this thread:

ILX loves racism, doesn't like Canadians

Correction: lol top shop scarf

My new scarf is from River Island

i happened to catch m. mcshane in the RICHIE RICH movie just the other day. it is not a terribly good film.

fry's attitude to the art/act of criticism, as expressed on Room 101 and elsewhere, is deeply reactionary, and his 'ideas' abt language were old hat by the turn of the 20th century.

i'd rather he agreed with someone else's opinion than professed another, insincere, one just to be different.

weren't a lot of the Whose Line is it anyway panel Canadian?

maybe you're right, maybe i don't like canadians.

fry's attitude to the art/act of criticism, as expressed on Room 101 and elsewhere, is deeply reactionary, and his 'ideas' abt language were old hat by the turn of the 20th century.

Still the source for a few very funny sketches though.

"His poetry and classical music appreciation books are pretty anti-intellectual/downright stupid. Try to read the 20rh C section of the latter."

i read the classical one (published under the classic fm name incidentally) on a quiet day at work, and yes, it was disgustingly reactionary. he even had it in for baroque music for not being emotive enough, i think.

Lol at everyone refusing to take Dom's racist bait despite him repeating it in every post.

yeah, fuck river island

OK, Bernard Manning wasn't a racist. When did this place turn into "Have Your Say"?

i want to know what these reactionary 'ideas' about language were

That classical music book was co-written with Tim Lihoreau, and one could easily blame him for its most reactionary passages, if one would be that way inclined. Don't think it counts much more than, say, the QI book.

Stephen Fry said Manning had great comic timing. You can have great timing *and* appalling jokes, the two aren't mutually exclusive. If you can find a quote where Fry actually shows admiration for Manning's material as well as his timing, bring it on (and I won't defend it).

xp
hmm. but unlike the qi book it was written as stephen's own appreciation of music throughout, his viewpoints on things, his history of getting into things.

what the hell is 'reactionary' and why is it the worst thing ever?

fake darraghmac

I heard Stephen Fry beat a trade union official to death with a baseball bat

i heard he signed darren bent.

There is no theory of evolution. Just a list of animals Stephen Fry allows to live.

I think Stephen Fry, Howard Goodall and Geir Hongro should form a close harmony singing group

MOOSE-LOVING PLANK MCSHANE still living off Richie Rich royalties. Has FRIAR TUCK even been to White Hart Lane this season?

he might have been at old trafford :(

politically, reactionary is used to mean hyper-conservative. where conservative = opposed to change, reactionary = going back to a previous state, cos even NOW is shit cos it changed already.

i don't believe fry is reactionary politically. he might be in some areas of art appreciation. but that's very common, and who gives a shit?

A picture is worth a thousand words. A Stephen Fry is worth 1 billion words.

Stephen Fry always knows the EXACT location of Carmen SanDiego.

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2006/08/AufWieder170806_390x600.jpg
AH BOLLOCKS MAN!

kind of like, ilx isn't as good as it used to be, sort of thing?

stephen fry can go into a burger king and get a big mac.

Dom resents poshos, animated short at 11

Stephen Fry played russian roulette with a fully loaded gun and won.

his 'ideas' abt language were old hat by the turn of the 20th century.

Of course his speech style is oldfashioned, but (pre-)Victorian "'ideas' abt language"? Surely he's a hardcore descriptivist and admirer of language (and new or unexpected ways of using it) from anyone in any register? (PS are scare quotes old hat yet? Yeah, I do use them myself, but...)

I think Stephen Fry, Howard Goodall and Geir Hongro should form a close harmony singing group

I don't know or much care if Fry keeps up with music now, but since I have heard/read him say nice things about Beefheart, Louis Jordan and Hot Butter I'm fairly sure that if he were asked to present a TV docu about popular music he at least wouldn't spend an hour telling us how the Beatles were the glittering pinnacle of the form and their masterful grasp of melody had not ever been bettered despite valiant attempts by Sting and Phil Collins, thus he wins that round.

Phil Collins >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Cpt Beefheart

I've been to Oxford precisely once, and I was taken to the QI bar. :-/

lol uve been to oxford

is QI bar a scrabulous cheat themed bar?

how interesting is that bar?

If it looks like chicken, smells like chicken and tastes like chicken, then it's chicken. But if Jack Bauer Stephen Fry says it's beef, then it's fucking beef.

OK, here's my tuppence.

REcently they repeated the Room 101 with his go.

One suggestion had him railing against "Feng Shui" style advice.

The very next one was "horrid wallpaper/surroundings" as being conducive to aggressive tendencies.

um, aren't they talking about the same thing? basically.

not if the dragon doesn't complain about the wallpaper.

QI loses money hand over fist.

good. i didn't like it. far too studenty, far too forced. gimme a low-roofed shack with crumbly barmen any day.

why would you go to a bar themed after a tv quiz show? seriously?

I'd go to a Monkhouse themed bar.

When it first opened it had one of the latest licenses in Oxford, I think. But yes, the only people I know who go are worse than paedophiles. The bookshop's conceit (books are organized by abstract theme rather than author or subject) is shit.

xpost.

QI loses money hand over fist.

Does it? Should I take the chip off my shoulder?

...I've just seen that the membership fee is at least twice as extortionate as last time I looked (£150 to join + £250 per year! "will probably rise in the autumn"!), so yeah, they must do, but I'm not won over. I can't find the bit where they insist that members should be "cheerful, relaxed and interesting" at all times any more though. The idea of being surrounded by people who think they are ceaselessly all three things and want to pay £400 to prove it is even more offputting than themed TV quiz show pubs. Well, as long as the quiz shows don't involve Noel Edmonds.

I've looked round the bookshop a few times but I've yet to find anything in there that I wanted to buy. I thought the "abstract theme" concept might make interesting browsing but in practice it's just utterly useless for working out where anything you might actually want to read would be. The only "theme" which makes any sense is the reference books section, and I can usually manage to find the reference books in a normal bookshop, thanks.

Does it? Should I take the chip off my shoulder?

Yes, or at least it did for the first couple of years it was open, and no, you shouldn't. Its ongoing scaling back of operations is a good thing, because it is very shit.

sounds appalling. only complete shitehawks join oxbridge clubs anyway, but joining one connected to a tv show seems sort of even worse than the bullingdon.

It's about time we split society into QI fans and Deal Or No Deal fans, and I gotta side with tidybeard in this one.

Fifteen To One-themed pub = I am there.

Between the Bullingdons, the Gridirons, and QI you guys seem to have a lot to be proud of. :p

What if there's a danger of working out the algorythm the banker uses to make the proposal?

Between the Bullingdons, the Gridirons, and QI you guys seem to have a lot to be proud of. :p

-- Just got offed, Monday, October 15, 2007 4:53 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

i fucks with the heretics now dogg.

/insufferable oxbridge jokes

Countdown pub - when they call time at the bar they can do the 30 second theme. The Once Nightly Whiteley would be the most garish looking cocktail but the Roffling Vorderman would have the strongest proof.

cocktail mixing strategy: "two from the top and four little ones"

Could be a good thread development, could be Custosesque. We shall see.

'big break' pub. the landlord is a racist fuckwit.

old people with no jobs could sip their brandy in the 'dictionary corner' snug.

bullseye pub- you can play darts.

^^^best post ever

Susie Dent themed fruit machine (match three 'chavs' for jackpot)

3-2-1 pub. all the drinks contain industrial quantities of acid, so nobody has a fucking clue what's going on.

actually: wouldn't need acid. just weston's organic cider (qv glasgow thread).

'fun house' pub. full of studenty fucktards reminiscing about shitty 80s things no-one can really remember. HAHAHAHA HE HAD A MULLET!!!!!!!!!!1!!

also: surely in a countdown pub the drinks menu would be entirely anagramatic?

GALER

NGI NAD TNICO

DWK ELUB

etc

madeleine pub, supposedly all manner of things going on, but you can't find it.

Numbers game = trying to work out appropriate tip, obv

good. i didn't like it. far too studenty, far too forced.

sounds right up your street.

obselete beat downs is the other thread..

39 minutes, people.

are you calling time on the thread???

'big break' pub. the landlord is a racist fuckwit Charlton fan.

-- That one guy that hit it and quit it, Monday, 15 October 2007 16:07 (13 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

fixed :D

i was wistfully sighing over the amount of time it took for the inevitable zing to come. LZCBC losing its touch.

(with three minutes' reaction grace supplied.)

far too forced :\

why did he desert us when we needed him the most?

Stephen Fry's favourite ILX poster is Luna.

stephen fry would be an invaluable addition to the LBZC

He couldn't keep up with the pace.

Mike McShane, on the other hand.

IL-ex posterz

Are you his agent or something? (xp)

mike mcshane doesn't really exist

stephen fry = tesco value oscar wilde

yeah, we had that. unfortunately oscar's dead, and mike mcshane isn't real, so whaddaygonnado?

Mike McShane is no Greg Proops.

that's for sure. they're equally shite though.

scratch that, mcshane is funnier because he's fat.

Results 1 - 10 of about 11,000 for "stephen fry" "national treasure". (0.16 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 26 for "dom passantino" "national treasure". (0.53 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 14 for "mike mcshane" "national treasure". (0.36 seconds)

That's his best feature (xxp)

the figures are in, boys!

Mike McShane in even less popular than Dom Passantino shockah!

Results 1 - 10 of about 70 for "ian huntley" "national treasure". (0.55 seconds

Results 1 - 10 of about 326,000 for "nicolas cage" "national treasure". (0.22 seconds)

!

Dom Passantino in almost as popular as Ian Huntley shockah!

Your search - "louis jagger" "dom passantino" "national treasures" - did not match any documents.

quelle surprise

Caught some top Mike McShane action on the Whose Line repeats on Dave TV yesterday. Big man came correct with some loliciousness.

I like it when they improvise hilarious songs. Especially if somebody raps.

^^^OTM

John Sessions, very much the Grandmaster Caz of late 80s improv comedy.

Maybe we should have a "Sessions vs Slattery" poll

I think we need a "Josie Lawrence: Would You Hit It?" poll.

Apparently something like 90% of Lawrence's career earnings come from the yoghurt adverts she used to do.

The answer is "Yes as long as she didn't improvise a comedy orgasm" BTW

She is kinda like the original version of that woman off Peep Show yes?

^^^OTM

Posh-yet-krazy-chick is a Brit comedy standard.

Emma Thompson in the early 80s perhaps the genesis of this.

I'm irresistibly drawn to feebly "wacky" middle class women.

Apparently her from Peep Show is Olivia Colman. Big fan of her sterling work in those used Vauxhall ads with that dink out of Grange Hill. Never the same after she got too big for them.

Kev and Bev, that was some funny shit.

Funnier than Fry's Twinings Tea schtick.

She made her TV debut in the fondly remember sitcom Bruiser, according to IMDB.

Sketch show according to Wackypedia

Recurring sketches included Alan Titchmarsh's Agent, "Outdoor Wee," and Martin Freeman as a character who always found himself in embarrassing situations that made him appear like a pervert.

I'm irresistibly drawn to feebly "wacky" middle class women.

I have a crush of shame on Esther Hall, her out of the BT ads also featuring Kris Marshall.

WACKY MIDDLE CLASS BRITISH COMEDY ACTRESSES POLL NOW

Jane Horrocks would get my vote, despite how bad her one-off Channel 4 sketch show from 1997-or-so was.

Bruiser was a sketch show, I apologise. I was thinking of... whatever it was Ricky Grover was in.

Olivia Colman is very naked indeed for most of terrible Britcom "Confetti", if you like that kind of thing.

Esther Hall was in Queer As Folk, I was delighted to see the other night as part of Channel 4's birthday celebration.

I think I have a crush of shame on Kris Marshall, which is way worse.

that girl from the friendly bacteria adverts.

Jane Horrocks is hot but early-mid Emma Thompson is hottttter.

Emma Thompson's one-off show was way worse.

Aimed for Peter Cook's one off. Came off as a "librarian tries to do jokes".

And don't get me started on Ulrika's one-off!

It's pathetic really, nearly 39 and still jonesing after unattainable posh birds.

I'm 90% sure that Thompson's show went to a full series, not a one-off...

Yep:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094566/

Usually ranked alongside Triangle and Churchill's People as one of the worst TV shows ever on British TV, right?

Yeah, that series was toe-curlingly painful, it had "serious" bits that just looked like W! T! F?!?!

Ricky Grover's Bulla was a great character shamefully wasted in 'Orrible.

I think the USA has us well beat for good comedy actresses.

Ricky Grover is kinda like a fat, white, slightly less funny Felix Dexter in the "Wow, your talent was really fucking wasted" stakes.

American actresses aren't posh so I'm not innerested.

I have a crush of shame on Esther Hall, her out of the BT ads also featuring Kris Marshall.

ditto

that girl from the friendly bacteria adverts.

ditto

also the girl in the Serafinowicz show, a bit

what about that one whose dad is LTA chairman and rly rly loves God, amirite?

Would still smash Jessica Stevenson-Newsurname before any of these women, tho

Ok yes ^^^^^ this

Hasn't she got Jebus tho? Or is that just Sally Philips?

man 'smash' is a really terrible term

add kath parkinson to list already

religion and comedy go so well together innit

god-bothering = not arousing

It's just Phillips, and let's not just define Phillips as a mildly religious woman, she's a full scale hellfire and brimstone nutjob.

Stevenson just has a chip on her shoulder Welsh I'd like to put something else on her shoulder amirite guyz

yeah i'd still smash that brimstone into powder xpost.

putting the fun in fundie

BTW who the hell is Kath Parkinson? Google's letting me down here.

Unless bluesk has the hots for a manager from Springhill Care Homes.

Nah it's alright I found her meh.

Funny that they're following repeats of QI with repeats of Whose Line on Dave (aka UKtv G2) just so we can test Dom's assertion. Turns out he's wrong. I couldn't stomach more than 5min of Whose Line (yes, I did like it back in the day). (Also worked as a Clive Anderson double-header the other night).

Maybe they'll dig up S&M next.

If you didn't stomach more than 5 minutes then you won't have got to the hilarious comedy songs.

Dave is actually getting a cautious thumbs-up from me so far, even if just because they're showing series one of The Apprentice. Paul Torrisi > Stephen Fry _and_ Mike McShane

It wasn't five consecutive minutes - I did dip back in in time for McShane doing an MGM musical number about soap. It was concentrated antiLOL.

For shame.

Maybe we should have a "Sessions vs Slattery" poll

What if a dalek was in Pride and Prejudice vs. hiding behind a sofa for a year = no contest.

Wasn't it, even better, a sofa in an abandoned warehouse?

I think so. He used to look out on the Thames and consider throwing himself in. What was his sitcom? "Just a Gigolo" or something?

And Josie Lawrence is gay so no 'smashing', no?

> also the girl in the Serafinowicz show, a bit

took me a while to figure out where i'd seen here before - the admiral's daughter who went awol on an episode of hyperdrive. and, apparently, peep show and a bunch of other stuff. http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1343486/

She was the cute history student Mark stalked in series 2.

Koogs, this is where you link to a google image search, not a bunch of credits :)

...especially if you want to see a pic of Sybill Shepherd's nipples.

Cybil

And Josie Lawrence is gay so no 'smashing', no?

A man's reach should exceed his grasp yadda yadda yadda

one of Jen's dinner party friends in the IT crowd too

Cybill

Yes, I meant that :)

one of Jen's dinner party friends in the IT crowd too

the drunken blonde ;)

"a bit of fry and laurie" is fantastic.

http://store.aetv.com/MEDIA/ProductCatalog/76814c/76814c.jpg

Uncut! Uncensored!

Can you imagine?

I hear Ryan Stiles says "moist" in one of the cut scenes.
Does Slattery do comedy anymore?

Fry is pretty entertaining, and those unhappy mutter-raps he did on Whose Line were classic. The "mother-lover" or whatever rap-parody on Fry & Laurie was one of the most horrible things I've ever seen. I like to imagine that it was a parody of rap parodies, but that doesn't excuse it. His blog is quite readable, and QI has been pretty good fun, despite Jimmy Carr being a frequent panelist.

Stephen fry has a total phobia about singing on-stage/in public.

He did one for "Fry and Laurie" with the help of a hypnotist, who gave him the instruction for singing when the codeword "Hit It" was used.

I suspect it doesn't work now, but it might be worth a try if you see him in town.

Does Slattery do comedy anymore?

you mean he ever did?

thankyewverymuchladiesandgennlemenmyname'sbeneltonGOODNIGHT etc.

i almost had to give up watching coronation street while he was on it.

Yeah, I was about to bring that up, he was awful. I'm not sure who ever told him he could act, but dear God did they get that one wrong.

CORONATION STREET?

Of course, Slattery's also in that thing with Stephen Fry on ITV. Kingdom, or something. My mum likes it. Slattery plays some local scruff-bag, from what I could make out from the one episode I managed. Years spent being a basket-case shut-in have made his performances so surreally bad he holds your attention more than anything else onscreen.

Tony Slattery, yes. He played a bookie in Corrie, and was excruciatingly awful at it. He's also in that crap Heartbeat-with-lawyers thing that Fry does on a Sunday.

xpost

all i can really remember about slattery is seeing him somewhere -- in the flesh? on TV? i can't recall -- wearing a truly absurd tassled jacket and being sweatily fat.

god i saw that davidm, and had blocked it out. you just think 'nice of fry to get work for his crazy mate tony'.

Oh, I thought you meant S.Fry on Corrie. As you were..

He was also by far and away the worst thing about Peter's Friends. Also, was he ever actually funny on WLIIA? I just remember him being the "naughty" knob gag one.

(again with the Tony Slattery, I'm afraid)

"What not to say to the Queen" right?

he has a great, if wordy, blog

www.stephenfry.com/blog

The Twinings advert is very irritating.

he's kinda fat, like martin jol. but he's smarter about football.

his jeeves is also pretty definitive.

also the girl in the Serafinowicz show, a bit

Oh good, I'm not alone in my crushing

So then, I was reading Jeremy Paxman's "The English", and he mentions CB Fry, Steve-O's ancestor who he dedicated a whole five minute portion to praising on an episode of QI once. So turns out that Fry's ancestor who he admires and feels that we should all praise went over to Germany to shake Hitler's hand and agree that "something should be done about the Jews".

Mike McShane has never supported the Holocaust, so strike another one up for the big man.

CB Fry did that? Writer, political thinker, king of Albania (almost), one-time long-jump record-holder, England footballer and Test cricket captain? How the idols shatter...

The thing is, I knew all of the sporting superman shit about him, I never knew he was a massive fucking Nazi.

Well, according to Wikipedia, he wasn't always a 'massive fucking Nazi'; he succumbed to mental illness and BECAME a 'massive fucking Nazi'. I'm not defending this, of course, but I think some of his actions can be put down to mental instability.

In the 1920s, Fry's mental health started to deteriorate severely. He had encountered mental health problems earlier in his life, experiencing a breakdown during his final year at Oxford which meant that although academically brilliant he took a very poor degree. In India in the late 1920s, he had a major breakdown and became thoroughly paranoid. For the rest of his life, he dressed in bizarrely unconventional clothes and had frighteningly eccentric interludes. He developed a horror of Indians, including his friend Ranjitsinhji. He did recover enough to become a popular writer on cricket (and other sports), and even in his fifties, entertained hopes of becoming a Hollywood star. According to noted cricket writer David Frith, in his book 'Pageant of Cricket' C.B. Fry was occasionally seen running naked down Brighton Beach during his less stable interludes.

In 1934, he met Adolf Hitler and was mesmerised by him. He failed to persuade von Ribbentrop that Nazi Germany should take up cricket to Test level, but some Hitler Youth were welcomed at the Mercury training ship and Fry was still expressing enthusiasm for them in 1938. He retired from his position at T.S. Mercury in 1950. He died in 1956, in Hampstead, a "grand old man of sport".

Can't S Fry (or us for that matter) admire (even 'praise') CB Fry's sporting achievements without supporting his crazyness?

SF starts a new technology / gadgets column in the guardian on saturday. he is, perhaps surprisingly, a big geek.

Anti-Jewish gadgets?

Finding out how much of a geek Stephen Fry is doesn't surprise me AT ALL.

now you mention it i did wonder if 'puts the zing in your ding-a-ling' was code for a call to arms against the ZOG

Mike McShane has never supported the Holocaust, so strike another one up for the big man.

On that Who Do You Think You Are? thing, didn't Fry discover that he had lost relatives on his mother's side in said Holocaust?

He discovered the facts, but it had been an unspoken truth in his family for years.

People say/do the craziest things when they've lost their marbles. Like you, Dom, when you called South Koreans "dog munching bastards" after Italy went out of the 2002 World Cup. Temporary insanity?

Good times, great memories.

Dunno when The Learned Elders of Zion XI beat England at cricket though.

there was a wall near my old house where someone had painted up 'S KOREA BEAT AND EAT DOGS'

The dogs being Italians, or am I missing it?

Is this thread going to become a "people/groups/concepts Dom has been abusive towards" thread? *sits back, munches popcorn*

LOOSE THE HOUNDS

ILE: likes dogs, hates Jews

SF starts a new technology / gadgets column in the guardian on saturday. he is, perhaps surprisingly, a big geek

his prelude to it in last saturday's was pretty good, actually, although i'm not sure how he'll sustain it past the three- or four-week mark. i meant to revive this thread and post something about it, but a) i didn't and b) i can't remember what i was going to comment on specifically, so hey.

(that he had the 2nd mac in the country?)

Douglas Adams had the first.

i knew that. and that.

(umberto eco's thing about operating system schizm?)(linux box?)(1 infinite loop?)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,,2198814,00.html

i think it might just have been the SHEER SHOCK of finding out he actually owns windows PCs as well :)

http://www.chortle.co.uk/news/2007/12/11/6144/alan_davies_bites_tramp

http://www.chortle.co.uk/furniture/newtease3.jpg

booby prize on the left there

Marcus Brigstocke is the biggest cunt currently working in British comedy.

Just thought I'd point that out.

You'd think an educated millionaire like him would have more decency.

"...He began calling me the C-word and other names."

Well if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

what, bite it? NOM NOM NOM NOMELESS

brigstocke looks like an unpleasant man and his television show is dire but his's a great standup comedian

his's?

anyway, i guess this has turned into a rolling "Q.I. panelists are c*nts" thread

Brigstocke looks like an ilxor.

I like 'em all (QI panellists).

you would

I like 'em all (QI panellists).

-- blueski, Tuesday, 11 December 2007 14:26 (39 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

Including Jimmy Carr?

Yes. Too lazy/easy to hate him.

I understand you disapprove of his jokes about the larger lady.

Yes. Too lazy/easy to hate him.

-- blueski, Tuesday, December 11, 2007 2:31 PM (30 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

just like HITLER amirite.

Never watched QI, can't think of anything I'm less likely to watch

two ducks having it off?

Don't watch wildlife programmes either

that gag could have come straight from QI

Linda Smith RIP

lol jk she was rubbish

Brigstocke has largely single-handedly dragged the once-brilliant R4 6:30 slot into the most reprehensible crap I've ever heard coming out of a major radio station, and that includes Talksport. Thank goodness Humphrey Lyttelton is still alive.

she was awful.

xpost

I will rep Victoria Wood as a comedian to the death, I honestly think she's one of the best stand-ups this country has ever produced. Linda Smith was like the Waitrose Victoria Wood, except without the lulz.

that gag could have come straight from QI

But itsawayItellum, atsacracker!

you don't *have* to watch the QI repeats y'know Dom. Maybe if you spent less time doing/watching/experiencing things that you hate, you would be hating less?

just a suggestion

dom believes in the mafia code: keep yr friends close and yr Dave TV on

i agree my quip was v QI-ish. do you think i should send it in?

alan davies will lend you an ear

(of a tramp YOU SEE?)

oh snap

Biting satire

http://www.7digital.com/shops/assets/sleeveart/%5C00602498130612_350.JPEG

http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/m3/dec2007/9/2/C82538E3-E6BC-26D7-A6F31A4D0D20C673.jpg

Davies was the biggest cunt working in British television even before I read about him eating tramps.

nah, there are worse. carr. those 'friday night project' twats.

Stephen Fry

For some reason none of those dudes brings me out in hives in quite the same way Alan Davies does. I guess Jonathan Creek used to be alright.

What is QI? Answer in the from of a lolcat gif please.

I've seen Alan on TV and he seems so mild-mannered with his sheepish grin and silly jokes. So when I felt his teeth around my ear I just couldn't believe it. I was shaking with shock afterwards.

‘You'd think an educated millionaire like him would have more decency.’

Weird beyond-parodic story! "I never thought I'd feel that sheepish toothy grin BITING DOWN ON MY LUG"

What is QI? Answer in the from of a lolcat gif please.

http://kscakes.com.nyud.net:8080/LolCats/Uploads/Saved/in-ur-cricket-team-hatin-ur-jewz.jpg

Lot of anti-semitism on the board today.

of course, ILX is full of guardian readers, duh

Alan Davies is worse than everyone else on television

Do you think we should poll this?

there are loads of worse people.

clarkson yo.

and davies went to bancroft's!

which will mean nothing to anyone outside NE London without a chip on their shoulder

isn't clarkson a fucking saint around here though xp

no.

yes he is! ILX wuvs him

Clarkson is an obvious cunt-on-his-sleeve cunt, whereas Davies' insidious appeal to twee-ers and Arsenal fans renders his stealth cunting that much more cunty.

yes he is! ILX wuvs him

-- DG, Tuesday, 11 December 2007 15:41 (1 minute ago) Bookmark Link

Nah, just Scots and comedy anglophiles like Tombot.

the people that run ILX you mean? :(

Clarkson for PM

fyi I ain't signed it and ain't signing it but 27,000 people have

i hate Danny Wallace way more than any of these people, or even you guys

but 27,000 people Tory protozoa have

Scots love Jeremy Clarkson? I must have missed that meeting.

"I guess this isn't going to look good, is it? The last thing I want is another negative story about 'that obnoxious Jonathan Creek star'. What's this going to say?"

mind you yeah danny wallace >:(

I wuz confused why anybody would hate Danny Wallace then I googled and found out about the other twat.

surely all those guys from mock the week are waay ahead. and jo brand.

"Mock the Week" is another programme I've never watched

god yeah, moran's "hoodies with rappity rap music on their mobile telephony?!?!!?" gig is completely intolerable.

-- r|t|c, Monday, 15 October 2007 11:41 (1 month ago) Bookmark Link

Lest we forget.

I almost mentioned him earlier in the context of "Alan Davies is even worse than..."

dylan MORON lol amirite

xpost

yeah, Davies still worse.

there's this guy just getting coverage in ireland called andrew maxwell, he is an arch-c*nt demi-bollix

http://www.thecatlaughs.com/media/images/32maxwell.andrew_p.jpg

^^^isn't this dude in The Rakes?

Oh, he's been over here for years, never really made it

Irish nationals should be banned from becoming comedians - or else some kind of quota put on them. Australians banned outright.

well, i have to admit that dylan moran and ed byrne can be quite funny in small doses. the rest of them i'll allow.

Stephen Fry and Dom Passantino in agreement shocker.

Am enjoying his travelogue in America so far.

Yeah, me too. The hatred on this thread for a bunch of mildly irritating comedians is astonishing.

Oh, I'm finding his America show a bit boring...he's no michael palin, ought to stick to being clever.

^^^
Palin = having a slightly-to-moderately uncomfortable time but being very English and not complaining about it.
Fry = getting pissed up in various locations (bourbon distillery was hilarious), while being terribly nice to everyone, but not actually having to rough it at all. And his sweeping generalisation about Miami while rapidly speeding through it in a taxi = dud.
At least Fry is better than Griff Rhy-Jones - "Hey isn't London a great city! There are all these restaurants and secret tunnels and shit!" Audience: "Yeah, we know..." Jones: "Watch it, or I'll lose my temper and maybe park my Vauxhall really badly!"

How thoughtful of the BBC to put the only funny bit of Harry & Paul in a trailer so that we don't have to waste time watching the whole programme. I say "funny", but taking the piss out of Stephen Fry = shooting fish in a barrel. With a machine gun. Who do they do next, Boris Johnson?

I agree about the Miami bit - that was rather predictable.

Flicked through the earlier bits of this thread. Mind-bogglingly inane.

He called Led Zeppelin a "guilty pleasure".

Fuck him.

Oh yes, he's such a cunt, isn't he? This kind of dullard popist pedantry is the sign of far too much time spent on ILM.

^valuable new poster

loads of posters called things like Freedom and Vision

if only they knew what ILX was really about ;_;

restraint and blindness

You can smug away all you like.

indeed we shall.

http://www.geocities.com/hollywood/2549/wlmike.jpg

please explain why this man is a "national treasure"

Um, because that's the kind of nation GB is?

i.e. fascist.

http://www.tootingpopularfront.com/citizensmith.jpg

There is an old episode of QI on Dave just now (lol surprise, etc). Anyway, the Sky+ episode info button thingie says "QI: National treasure Stephen Fry chairs...."

That Rhys-Jones cities thing was dreadful. Disingenuous surprise at the most banal facts imaginable. 'Can you believe seven million people live here? Seven million!' Um, yes, you bell-end, it's a city.

Fry's America jaunt is fun, if a bit shallow. I was hoping for some of his trademark US pisstakery.

Not Stephen Fry, but Jon Snow most certainly is.

SNOW IN "DIRTY YOUNG ASIAN" OUTRAGE

what in the world

Marcello, you wanna weigh in on this?

loses points for braggin' tbh

it's a pretty baffling story imho.

I fully expect to reread this heartwarming tale in Francis Gay's column in this weekend's Sunday Post.

There should be a column written by the kid in response where he mockingly informs Snow that he actually gave him £20 to touch a black man's willy

snow causes confusion again this week.

a licky boom boom down.

I expect this to be the first of a series of acts of generosity to filthy minorities.

if you wanted 5 quintessential LBZC threads, this would be one of them

Stephen Fry continually impresses me with how utterly decent and broad-minded he is. Not a national treasure, but truly one of the few celebrities who wears his fame humbly, selflessly and gracefully. He strikes me as an inquisitive, approachable man, who tries to give as much of himself as he can to a baying and often unreasonable public.

did you get a pr job?

No, it just strikes me whenever I hear the dude on radio or read his articles that he's a fundamentally good and fiercely principled person, and there's a need to separate this from his public perception as a big cuddly comedian.

he did sound off about the MPs expenses thing being a big fuss over nothing tho - major points deduction

all flesh is grass

Fry's point about expenses was a bit more complex.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/8045869.stm

I think he was pissed off with the increasingly hysterical tone of the Telegraph's (et al) tone. There are loads of reasons not to like Jacqui Smith, the fact that her hubby watched a porno is not one of them.

Yeah, I did LOL when Fry said that because each journo chasing that story was probably to the point where they could expense most of their life. Cabs, meals, 'fruit and flowers', the lot.

St Stephen's halo is slipping a bit:

Stephen Fry shocks feminists by claiming women don't really like sex

"If women liked sex as much as men, there would be straight cruising areas in the way there are gay cruising areas. Women would go and hang around in churchyards thinking: 'God, I've got to get my fucking rocks off', or they'd go to Hampstead Heath and meet strangers to shag behind a bush. It doesn't happen. Why? Because the only women you can have sex with like that wish to be paid for it."

I lolled at the image this conjures up - but can't really agree. This assumes that there's only one of liking sex: having it as often and opportunistically an casually as possible.

I forsee another Twitter vacation for Fry.

Stephen Fry otmfm

kinda otm in a comedian making lols way

Um.

Aw, gee, thanks for coming out, Steve.

But really, if I'd wanted sweeping gender essentialist pronouncements about the sexuality of women from men who, you know, never actually *had* sex with a woman, I'd have joined the Catholic Church.

So much fail in that article.

^ILTMI slogan pls

uhh?
weirdest bit is the idea that women who like sex = become prostitutes

or that all men are on the cruise regularly

# Bye bye less than 5 seconds ago via Twitter for iPhone

# So some fucking paper misquotes a humorous interview I gave, which itself misquoted me and now I'm the Antichrist. I give up. 15 minutes ago via Twitter for iPhone

# Oh fuck. Which newspaper what foes it say?

look out belgium

I didn't realize until just now that stephen fry was gay (which shows how much attention I pay to him). I don't see anything that "shocking" about comments like this coming from a humorist.

don't think he's saying women don't like sex, but they don't like it as much of as often as men do. i don't know whether this is true or not. personally, i don't think i'd like to have sex in a graveyard or hampstead heath, either.

I only know this guy from the Oscar Wilde movie he was in. I don't really have an opinion on him, but Hugh Laurie is dreamy. Who could've guessed he was a British comedian!

I think what he's saying is straight women don't like sex as much as gay men. Quite interesting, Steve.

GAHHHHHHH the interview in question was given to my friend, who doesn't make stuff up.

why do any of you care about this

revered guy perpetuates tired gender myths?

wish this guy would fuck off in general

^^^^
This

i liked the lady in the Observer ("Rosie Boycott, the journalist and feminist" )who said "I'm sure I've done it in parks in my time." like.. surely you'd remember?!

observer response was pretty confused in general

can't quite account for this but:

i know longer give a shit either way about controversies to do with the un-pc opinions of public figures

anyone who gets paid to write a lengthy 'response' to this should at least thank fry for the opportunity

Rosie Boycott has had serious alcohol problems (see her autobiography 'A Nice Girl Like Me') - so may well not remember.

even as a massive fan of his books and of his comedy in general i have to say he's been in people's faces way too much of late. he really needs to start turning down stuff, as he may well do now. i think that him being on the cover of attitude, Top 10 in the book charts, number 1 in the audiobook charts, on adverts on itv, hosting a quiz show on the bbc, hosting his own 1 man show in london, being the most followed uk person on twitter, being the voice of Harry Potter, being the face of Apple in the uk, talking for an hour on the biggest show on radio 1 2 weeks back, talking for an hour on the biggest London local radio show the same week, talking on the One show on bbc1 the same week, to say nowt of the radio and tv stuff about his lectures, theories, debates, etc all over the place.. i mean it's all enough for him to get on anyone's tits.

GAHHHHHHH the interview in question was given to my friend, who doesn't make stuff up.

The thing is, you don't have to 'make stuff up' to misrepresent or overstate the manner in which something is said. I mean, I completely disagree with the content, but 'making pronouncements on women's sexuality' is also not necessarily what he intended to do. He was most likely joking around (he is a comedian, you know) and came out with some unfunny and faintly obnoxious stuff. Not sure that it's really that important.

mm true i mean look at MIA/Truffle-gate.

attitude have already confirmed that they've got it all on tape and that it's all as reported. Fry seems to be saying also that people have *misquoted* the piece which was *already* a misquote of him. complex!

Fries causing so much trouble for reporters!

being the face of Apple in the uk

and microsoft as well now, of course

even as a massive fan of his books and of his comedy

imagine yr post from the perspective of someone who didn't like him to begin with :(

Don't really have a dog in this race, but, er, who cares? Comedians be all trying to get lols and sometimes go too far.

not sure this comedy excuse stands up, he seems to be serious here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A211L382EVI

women be shopping

yeah he's not 'kidding around' in this piece, he isn't that sort of comedian at all.

Fries causing so much trouble for reporters!

Loool

someone should start a social media campaign in which women post about where they like to have sex - like, on the couch or w/e - to demonstrate that fry's wrong about this whole thing

There's something rather repellent about that "unlikely" in the Observer intro:

"Broadcaster and writer Stephen Fry has tried to establish himself as an unlikely authority on female sexuality..."

Is that couch behind a bush?

As a side note, he will make a hilarious senile personality in 20 years.

Who could've guessed he was a British comedian!

British people.

Australians.

Americans that wear Soccer shirts.

I still boggle every time I hear people say "oh Hugh Laurie was in BLACKADDER? WHAT?" As if House was the only thing he ever did wtf.

Absolutely, he was in Stuart Little for crying out loud.

i liked the lady in the Observer ("Rosie Boycott, the journalist and feminist" )who said "I'm sure I've done it in parks in my time." like.. surely you'd remember?!

― piscesx, Sunday, 31 October 2010 21:21 (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

maybe she was unsure whether it was more of a park or just a field or playground

House comment otm.

"House was in Blackadder?" etc make me ANGRY.

sidebar: has the popular 'who gives a shit' meme led to the unfortunate sidelining of an enduring classic?

http://www.w3bbo.com/forums/Care-O-Meter.gif

can't choose between anger and boggling going to just angrily boggle iydm

why do any of you care about this

― BIG MUFFIN (gbx), Sunday, 31 October 2010 17:00 (Yesterday)

Quite.

http://i49.tinypic.com/rhuxcp.gif

"House was in Blackadder?" etc make me ANGRY.

― argosgold (AndyTheScot), Monday, November 1, 2010 7:06 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

Sorry, we didn't get that show over here! That's like... getting mad at people for not knowing about Charo's Spanish indie movie acting career, or something.

Charo was in BLACKADDER?

WHAT?

you have already caused these people great offence Princess TamTam and are only making it worse

i saw a youtube of this guy feeding a baby rhino and at the end he said "i've done everything on this planet that is worth doing"

Ugh: http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2010/nov/01/stephen-fry-homosexuality-women-sex

"cuddly face of acceptable bourgeois homosexuality"

"favourite gay uncle"

I have no opinion on Fry himself, but I find this snidey homophobic boilerplate rather upsetting.

He's now replaced his photo on twitter with a piece of wood and put no longer in service.

Surely anyone that took him at his word on that interview is an idiot?

laurie penny is the worst, most shameless rentagob since, oooh, tanya gold at least

He's now replaced his photo on twitter with a piece of wood and put no longer in service.

pls 2 expand 2 entire career, thx

Sorry, we didn't get that show over here!

Wrong.

PBS doesn't count.

It wasn't on PBS, it was on A&E.

And PBS most certainly does count, fwiw.

http://www.brew-wood.co.uk/comedy/youngones/BAMBI.JPG

top row: the young ones
bottom row: ben elton?, emma thompson, stephen fry, hugh laurie

fuck ghostbusters 3, my fondest wish is for this reunion to happen.

(ben elton is correct. The poshness was not ironic, fwiw)

HM, that's the second time you've given Laurie Penny un(der)qualified criticism, so will ask again: why does she bother you? I love her stuff since I saw her speak at a thing at the Houses of Parliament and started following her output. She's very intelligent and has a bit of empathy going on, and I would commission her in a red-hot second.

Would be nice to have a measured and thoughtful answer but if you can't provide anything other than sniping about an op-ed writer, let's just say it won't surprise me.

why does she bother you?

she doesn't bother me, but i don't think she's very intelligent. read the first paragraph of the fry piece. if you can get to the end of it, you win i guess.

Laurie Penny is a bit like Johann Hari, even when her basic point is right, she has this emotional-trowel approach to writing that I find terrible. This blog post is an excellent example of why.

i find johann hari suddenly being cast as someone it's possible to take seriously utterly perplexing - mdc otm about why his writing is infuriating. his style also makes me distrust every statistic he cites to back up his points.

on board with whatever stephen fry backlash may be happening at any point in time though my reaction here was more a pitying o_0 than anger or offence.

Penny's writing in that column is full of stale jargon ("solidarity in the face of a heteronormative patriarchy that oppresses all of us"), ugly constructions ("this wry empathy with an almost universal human imbecility in the face of groinal temptation") and just plain bad prose. And I agree with Chuck_Tatum that "acceptable bourgeois homosexuality" is a snide phrase. I don't think she's up to the kind of day-in-day-out op-ed stuff she does for the New Statesman. But then I wonder who is - that kind of pace encourages kneejerk, poorly researched, outrage-of-the-day punditry.

It will be interesting to speak to my friend P who actually did the original interview with Fry, just to get a measure of what happened, but I won't see him until Thursday.

Hmm, one person's jargon is another's 'wow, here's a great word to describe why a group of men are being dicks' - and some phrases are *intended* to be snide. BTW I didn't like Johann Hari for a few years but he's improved since the election. I don't mind an emotive style if it's in aid of a group or topic that deserves a bit of sympathy and isn't otherwise getting any, which is why I laughed a la gallows when I read the LP blog MDC just linked, but having conversed with LP, she is really of shockingly high intelligence and is motivated to do more/better work than that. She's just 24! I know people twice her age, working regularly, who will never have her skills!

95 per cent of comment is free is totally shit, let's be honest.

sorry let me climb down a little.....the factual/political stuff is the strongest part, at least there are actual points to be made. the cultural stuff is terrible.

It's also full of simplistic judgements and unexamined assumptions:

"Our sudden distaste for bankers' bonuses is not grounded on antipathy for extreme wealth but on simple annoyance that financiers are being rewarded for getting it wrong".

Oh come on. Does anyone really think it's that straightforward?

"The emotional logic of our society is now one of ceaseless neoliberal striving, a tyranny of aspiration."

Whose emotional logic?

Most of us would far rather believe that the poor are lazy and stupid than countenance the notion that the rich and powerful are steering us gleefully over an economic precipice.

"Most of us"? Her heart is probably in the right place but this complete lack of nuance, coupled with an obvious contempt for much of the country (many of whom are working class, on low wages and probably quite interested in the X-Factor).

yah penny's stuff is just standard student paper fare, don't get why people are so excited on either side, it's not like any of us really believe in 'quality' journalism eh

The national treasure's utter indifference to female experience is particularly chilling because he embodies a certain strand of cosy, unthreatening, upper-middle-class homosexuality within whose ranks misogyny routinely goes unchallenged.

Is there any substance to this at all?

stephen fry is pretty non-threatening. like if he was at mcdonald's i feel like i could go up and steal a few fries off him and he'd be all, "oh dear!"
i feel if i tried that with hugh laurie, there'd be blood on the fries, goofy comedy persona notwithstanding.

xpost I think so, but my job gives me lots of opportunities to meet this sort of man. Have you ever been party to a group of posh, gay men being homosocial?

As this seems to have devolved into 'mansplaining' I'm off to dream up opportunities for Laurie Penny to contribute to ESM, just to annoy the menz.

he embodies a certain strand of cosy, unthreatening, upper-middle-class homosexuality within whose ranks misogyny routinely goes unchallenged

i would only take issue with the "upper-middle-class" limiting qualifier

i guess speaking more to your point, i suspect non-threatening people in general tend to get away with more stuff in public, but isn't that as it should be? they're harmless.
best to save up the ammo of furor against actually threatening people.

As this seems to have devolved into 'mansplaining' I'm off to dream up opportunities for Laurie Penny to contribute to ESM, just to annoy the menz.

Suzy this sort of handwave is lame, given that most of the criticism of Penny on this thread has nothing to do with the fact that she happens to be female. I took pains to compare her to a male columnist.

Thanks for policing my responses, Matt - really appreciate it.

Well "mansplaining" is a very aggravating retort to criticisms which focus on her prose and her arguments and don't make an issue of her gender.

Re: misogyny among upper-class homosexuals, the only examples I've come across were very far from cosy and unthreatening.

i still don't get what "mansplaining" is - explaining done by men? cuz if it's "patronising explanation of something you already knew which avoids your actual point" (nb i don't think anyone in the last few posts has been guilty of this) - soooo not limited to men, indeed one of the biggest traffickers of that kind of mansplaining on the internet is prob sady doyle.

Wasn't Mansplaining an '80s electro artist

Maybe I have read the criticisms and I just don't agree? Maybe I think my criticism has validity because a bunch of men are slagging off a woman and calling her unintelligent, while no woman has offered criticism of this writer for those reasons?

I freely admit I don't usually go hunting around for op-ed people to accuse of suckage because it's futile: editors choose Marmitey contributors on purpose and some of them are...us.

But then I wonder who is - that kind of pace encourages kneejerk, poorly researched, outrage-of-the-day punditry.

― The baby boomers have defined everything once and for all (Dorianlynskey), Monday, November 1, 2010 4:58 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

yeah this. when i say im 'not bothered', this is what i mean. it's the format, the need to go to press on sub-trivia like stephen fry comparing the stereotypes, not the content, though lp's content sucks too, everyone else otm.

Maybe I think my criticism has validity because a bunch of men are slagging off a woman and calling her unintelligent, while no woman has offered criticism of this writer for those reasons?

The issue is that this is disingenous. I don't see you throwing around accusations of "mansplaining" whenever everyone jumps over some mentalist Melanie Phillips screed.

i think my record on slagging off male writers is pretty solid

but i mean really

Nigeria's urban renewal is trying to bulldoze human rights
Celestine Akpobari: The clearing of more than 200,000 people who live on the waterfronts of Port Harcourt will wreck businesses and lives
13 comments

Laurie Penny
Stephen Fry, how could you?
501 comments

don't get me wrong, im part of it

editors choose Marmitey contributors on purpose and some of them are...us

internet has made this pretty awful tho...comment bait is everywhere.

The other issue is that "he embodies a certain strand of cosy, unthreatening, upper-middle-class homosexuality within whose ranks misogyny routinely goes unchallenged" is a very odd sort of unconsidered prejudicial thing to say, especially when you are making a point of countering a similarly unconsidered, prejudicial thing coming from Stephen Fry. That's not an issue of femininity or feminism or youth or anything else, it's just plain bad journalism.

"editors choose Marmitey contributors on purpose"

Is this marmite the weird toast spread? please explain -- the only reference points i have is being on the precipice of eating it but being pulled back by the smelling of it first.

marketing slogan is you either love it or hate it.

i really like when advertising slogans become engrained rhetorical vehicles...it must be amazing if you're the ad man that created one of these.

That marketing slogan has played its part in bringing the best known face of British fascism to the brink of bankruptcy.

Marmite analogy suggests delusions of grandeur in most contexts now. Certain celebrities and pundits like to think they're passionately loved or hated when the truth is that most people, if they know who they are, can't be arsed either way.

i really like when advertising slogans become engrained rhetorical vehicles...it must be amazing if you're the ad man that created one of these

Whoever thought up the slogan for Ronseal Quick Drying Woodstain, aka the most boring consumer product imaginable, is a bona fide genius IMO.

oh, that's a really good shorthand then! I don't think we could have an equivalent expression in the US. "editors choose ketchup-on-eggsy contributors"?

that's exactly the one i had in mind! amazing. describes an entire aesthetic and worldview. it's surprisingly (depressingly!?) common to see "does exactly what it says on the tin" in techno reviews.

x-post

Back to Fry - one unflattering news piece ("misquoted" is celebrity-speak for "accurately quoted re: something I now regret") and he storms off Twitter, the very outlet he's always praising as a direct-to-the-fans alternative to the wicked mainstream media? There are public figures who get more shit from the press in a day than he gets in a year. Admittedly, not of all of them are bipolar but still.

He's always storming off Twitter though.

to be fair to him the amount of vituperative shite he must get must be astronomical even when he's not in the middle of a feminist shitstorm.

and not to cast aspersions or prejudge him because of previous health issues but i could see him being a fairly sensitive sort.

LOL, I was just questioning HM's status as self-styled Intelligence Arbiter (an unsubstantiated 'she's not very bright' is always edifying coming from ILX Man). I'm finding the only knees being jerked here are not being jerked by writers in the Guardian! I also know that the whole fucking world could say I was wrong about something that was actually opinion-based and I'd just ignore them or hope my intransigence drove them mad. Right/wrong as a value judgement requires facts to measure and most of what I'm reading is personal opinions and there's no measuring those as right/wrong.

Maybe we should deal with this ---> I know LP has been thinking about gay male misogyny/gynophobia as a subject for some time (we talked about it in the context of the fashion world, where there is a lot of ironic 'ism'-ing going on behind the scenes that becomes less ironically meant as it goes unchallenged) and I told her to view it as part of a larger bullying cycle and not specifically about woman-hating - there is an idea that bullied groups get a free pass to be snide about other people who might also be part of a still-more-bullied group which I've totally seen play out at work. If you don't share the joke or try to make it stop, you're marked out as either a) an '80s PC throwback or b) 'worthy' - something I notice NEVER EVER happens on threads where we find ourselves debating the quality of female columnists' work.

suzy, nobody itt is calling LP worthy or a throwback or any other loaded phrases like shrill and humourless. People are saying that her prose is lumpy and her arguments simplistic and/or incoherent. It's pretty disingenuous to start implying this counts as bullying.

haven't read most of this and whilst i'd usually be the first to decry sf's preciousness and the sickly hivemind consensuality of ~national treasures~....

u gotta say when it comes down to it there's good and evil

and he's not evil (even considering the cc fraud stuff)

oh i c he has been challoping egregiously

still, not evil in the gnostic sense

Dorian, you've conflated a few things here! I've seen crits of a writer and discussed that, and then I talked about the way oppressed groups bully one another in my workplace because I was discussing it with the writer in question just last week and then voila, an opinion opportunity on something vaguely related came up as watercooler news of the day. We can agree, though, that people - often female people - who tell the 'ironic' sexist or racist to check themselves often have to put up with loaded reactions.

Ah OK, I must have misread your point.

some ideas for the fucher of this thread

- crit theory meta-analysis of intra-subaltern bigotry, victimhood oneupmanship
- some ws innuendo wrt lp itt, possibly to initiate a more traditional fugue of sb's and heartbreak
- email lp and hm to see if we can arrange some sort of iq contest, antique paddington bear soaked with stephen fry's tears to the victor

LOL, I was just questioning HM's status as self-styled Intelligence Arbiter (an unsubstantiated 'she's not very bright' is always edifying coming from ILX Man).

but YOU'RE arbiting her intelligence JUST AS MUCH by saying that she IS intelligent, ILX WOMAN!!!11!

yeah i mean we can do a preliminary round hm vs suzy

ITT

the loser gets to petition larry summers w/ their ideas about iq and gender, but be warned, his putdowns will be ~withering~

it's surprisingly (depressingly!?) common to see "does exactly what it says on the tin" in techno reviews.

there must be a DJ called Ron Seal (and a thread about these monumental slogans)

LOL HM, I have no real beef with you but plz, you are playing the virtual reality game 'apples v. oranges' - regularly turning up to offer a limp 'ehh, not bright' about some grrrl writer is not quite the on the same level as the few occasions where I involve myself in these discussions to say a writer is intelligent or critic may be missing the point. I do think writers suck or miss the point in their columns - one recent example I can think of concerns Hitchcock - but I know enough of them not to comment negatively lest my own critics call out a backstory of some kind, favourable or not.

Laurie P's writing makes me cringe, and some of my best friends are women!

lol^

LOL.

u gotta say when it comes down to it there's good and evil

and he's not evil (even considering the cc fraud stuff)

― Terminal Boredoms (nakhchivan), Monday, November 1, 2010 7:55 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

hahaha

I like Fry btw and more than anything else I think this statement is a function of his age and the kind of world he grew up in.

is he ten years older than you?

twitter still dead, keep it up steve

how does Fry's 10-15 years of public chastity while proclaiming that sex (& relationships) was too messy and yucky and a hassle to bother with* tie in here?

(*which he freely flipped to "nah it's ace" when he hooked up with a wee toyboy")

Laurie Penny was halcyon days...Now the Daily Mail weighs in with a threesome of Rosie Boycott, Charlotte Metcalf and Yasmin Alibhai-Brown

Oops

The Rosie Boycott piece is fine actually, mostly because it doesn't start from a standpoint of 'OMG gays'.

Yes, Rosie is pretty good really. I lost touch with her columns when she produced that organic gardening book (and something about food policy advisor to Boris?)

His Highness hates hacks (better to go into sewage clearance, he has said) and this one is triply blighted by being of low birth, heterosexual and a woman.

got a pretty vivid image of YAB sitting at her desk for like 15 minutes thinking about how she might also be able to call him a racist in that sentence and get it past the subs

Some thoughts:

I am sure Stephen Fry didn’t mean any malice in his comments but he was being naïve. I would note in passing that the male idealisation of women as pure/noble/Better Than Us is quite often simply the reverse side of the misogyny coin but Stephen’s hardly being a Taliban spokesman here (or anywhere else). Certainly I wouldn’t have stormed off Twitter but I’ve stormed off ILx and other places enough times to understand the acute sensitivity involved. I’m sure he’ll be back.

I hear what Suzy’s saying and having read Laurie Penny’s Guardian and Statesman pieces can only say that in the former there are some interesting thoughts which haven’t fully been thought through (presumably because of journalistic time constraints and the need to scribble something quickly but she’ll learn more about how to work with these as she gets more experience). The X-Factor analogy piece is strained and doesn’t really come off.

Factors common to both pieces which should be journalistically addressed include the following:

1) Ungrounded emotionalism. I rather enjoy what Matt calls the “emotional trowel” approach as it tends to succeed (as in, affecting its readers) more than the nuanced, emotionally suppressed (some might say constipated) English approach to which readers are more used. But it has to have a strong basis in quantifiable fact. A string of assertions dressed up as facts will not persuade the reader to change their mind and indeed may irritate those readers who essentially agree with what the writer is trying to say. It isn’t journalistic form to preface every sentence with the words “I believe” but that should be made clearer than it is in these pieces (equally, however, an unrelieved string of statistics, however accurate, is usually going to send even the most sympathetic reader to sleep, or at least to the crossword). Otherwise you’re going to end up in rent-a-rant land, however well that pays.

2) Avoid jargon (“heteronormative patriarchy”) and obscure vocabulary aiming to impress (“mucine” doesn’t quite mean what she thinks it does). And I speak as someone who not only uses obscure vocabulary aiming to impress, but also invents vocabulary when necessary (fine by me; I’m just doing what Shakespeare did). But then I’m not writing for a mass readership, and doing that is different from writing a blog or an academic paper.

3) Don’t presume. Criticising The Apprentice, X-Factor etc. is easy in theory (again, I’ve done it enough times in the past) but in practice looks like you’re sneering down your nose at those who some still call “plain people.” People (including us if we're honest, and we should be honest) having to work their socks out all week, or wear themselves out trying to find work or pay the mortgage/rent – aren’t they/we entitled to a bit of fluffy telly escapism? A little entertainment to take their minds off “life”? It doesn’t mean they’re detached, or being detached, from life, or that fascism is on the way.

^^^ mansplaining

Marcello's post encapsulates my thoughts quite nicely, third point in particular. The issues around aspiration, the working class, wage inequality, the media and governments are more complex than articles like that are willing to admit and it's a bit of a blind spot for many left-wing columnists. Avoiding the sneer is the hardest part. Simon Cowell may well be a vile right-wing piece of shit but you'd never catch him chav-bashing.

Didn't Prince Philip say something very similar to Stephen Fry's original 'quote', which made people go "wot, you calling your wife/the Queen a prostitute?"

Avoiding the sneer is the hardest part.

ahem.

oh i mean 'amen'

Marcello's OTM third point - and Matt's response - reminds me that the Laurie Penny NS blog which first got my back up was an immensely condescending anti-football piece during the World Cup. Awful student journalism packed with terrible non-jokes and dubious assertions. It's a classic pitfall of left-wing columnists - celebrate a platonic ideal of the working class while sneering at the real thing. And it's a classic pitfall of online journalism - a writer who has some intelligence and flair but no apparent editorial intervention to quash her bad habits and encourage her good ones.

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/laurie-penny/2010/06/world-cup-football-england

Good god that's appalling. Can't wait for her sensational column next month about crass consumerism and Christianity having hijacked a pagan festival.

no she's right, we should abandon all forms of leisure activity until we've fixed the financial crisis. but wait, SHOULDN'T WE START WITH THIRD WORLD POVERTY???

Ohh, they're talking about this on Loose Women next.

http://www.metapedia.com/wiki/images/Krugeruntitled1981.jpg

Oxford is part of the prissy aesthetic of British education peddled by the Potterverse, all fiddly buildings, flapping robes and elitism. When I arrived there six years ago, it already bore a worrying resemblance to the quivering traditionalism of Hogwarts, but there was at least some pretence towards a fair admissions policy. If Cable's proposals come in, muggles like me will stand no chance.

As the plebs prepare to be priced out of the new "competitive" universities, the Harry Potter brand exports a nostalgic and mostly imaginary Great British Past of lofty public schools, hearty puddings and blood feuds. The entire premise of the stories fetishises heredity and aristocracy: the wizards are a glittering ubermensch, and those lucky enough to be born into their ranks are destined for a life more resplendent and exciting than anything ordinary non-magical folk can hope for.

I know this is deteriorating into a pile-on but I can't resist this one. I can't help but feel the new generation of left-wing columnists should be throwing up someone a little less open to ridicule than someone who manages to misread the class politics of Harry bleeding Potter.

slight problem there being that harry potter is the most magical generational wonderment for huge volumes of kids from all backgrounds, take it from someone who knows!

Simple rule: if it's fun and popular, she's agin it.

between this and cuddly kafir-hater mehdi hasan i can see no reason not to subscribe to britain's leading left-wing weekly

Elite notes: saw that bit on Oxford, guessed Wadham, seem to be right from googling around. Glad it still produces classic student-left types.

suspicious of oxbridge class warriors in general tbf

is he ten years older than you?

Almost exactly, I think.

Need to be careful what I say cos I do some stuff for the NS, but the main thing I get from LP - both good and bad - is that she is so young and so angry. Would like to read her on something she actually likes rather than constant rage at the Pope, football and Fry. I also struggle to take political advice from somebody who doesn't have children, but that's a different matter.
Also, everything Marcello says is pretty spot on.

I also struggle to take political advice from somebody who doesn't have children

um...what? why?

(Me, I struggle to take political advice from somebody who effectively DISENFRANCHISES those who don't have children, but that's a different matter.)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/nov/02/stephen-fry-mistaken-women-sexual-nature-complex

this guy throws some oil on the fire.

Women need to trust a sexual partner before going home with them. That process takes several hours. I'd put it at about six, although this varies wildly.

wtf??? my average is 3.716 however if it's after a major sports victory or a sunny day at a festival i've heard tell of women's prospective sexual partners clocking a 2.3456

psychotic!

"Ian Dunt"

that sentence is the weirdest and creepiest thing i've ever seen on comment is free

And now Robbie Savage has quite twitter as well. Gutted.

Oh the humanity!

Maybe twitter could quit twitter too, that wd be a result.

Women need to trust a sexual partner before going home with them. That process takes several hours. I'd put it at about six, although this varies wildly.

That six-hour film about Carlos the Jackal must be his ideal date movie.

(Me, I struggle to take political advice from somebody who effectively DISENFRANCHISES those who don't have children, but that's a different matter.)

Yeah, I probably shouldn't have said that, but don't worry I'm not going to offer anybody political advice either.

xpost Indiscriminate rage cancels itself out after a while if you're furious with Tory cuts AND the Iraq War AND football AND something Stephen Fry said AND some movie that's just come out AND AND AND

That six-hour film about Carlos the Jackal must be his ideal date movie.

many is the woman he has bedded after a "double braveheart"

Ian Dunt is political editor of the Erotic Review, editor of politics.co.uk and a political
analyst for Yahoo UK

why does erotic review have a political editor?

http://blogs.cisco.com/news_img/captain-kirk.jpg

Women's sexual nature is complex. For a woman to express equal interest in sex, she must be used to having her arousal and satisfaction treated as importantly as the man's is. That's a task many men are too lazy or egocentric to accomplish

http://www.pollsb.com/photos/o/26148-captain_kirk.jpg

Yeah, I probably shouldn't have said that, but don't worry I'm not going to offer anybody political advice either.

"probably shouldn't have said that" as in you don't actually believe it, or that you do? because...if you do believe it i'd love to know how you can justify that.

Stephen Fry is a rambling old man and he'll just talk about whatever crap to whoever will listen. I'm starting to see why Hugh Laurie was the more successful member of the duo.

what? define 'successful'.

gets laid in cemeteries more often

"woman's sexual nature is complex"

http://angrywhitedude.com/wp-content/uploads2/2009/07/smoove-b.jpg

"probably shouldn't have said that" as in you don't actually believe it, or that you do? because...if you do believe it i'd love to know how you can justify that.

Hmmm. I do and don't believe it and it's not justifiable so I won't try. It's an unanalysed half-thought.

Perhaps I should have said that I (and this is 'I' not 'you' or 'one') can't take political advice from anybody under 30, although that's no less patronising and also not quite right.

But it stems from the fact that nothing has challenged and compromised my political views more than having a kid. This doesn't mean I've veered from left to right or vice versa, it just means I'm a lot less judgmental/dogmatic (unless you are under 30/childfree).

what? define 'successful'.

In pure success terms, House pretty much outstrips anything Fry's done.

In pure success terms

i left my successometer at home so can't verify this.

Okay, one is the star of a massive US TV show with an international following, the other was a middle-ranking UK TV personality and host of QI until he set up a Twitter account and became all-powerful.

The slightly sad thing about Fry is that he's got a giant brain and he's dabbled in so many things but he's currently best known for QI, Twitter and banging on about Apple products. I wonder if that's where the insecurity comes from - the fact that he might have been a great actor/director/novelist and instead he's been a jack of all trades. I don't mean that in a snide way - if I achieved a fraction of that I'd be a happy man - but I get the impression that he thinks he should have done something more substantial with his intellect and opportunities. Clive James admits to exactly this feeling. And because so much of his success rests on being a well-loved national treasure - the public's favourite clever clogs - he's very sensitive to any possibility of a backlash.

xxp wikipedia claims

In 2008, House was distributed in a total of 66 countries. With an audience of over 81.8 million worldwide, it was the most watched television show on the globe

think that might be a few more viewers than fry's wagner prog but you never know eh

hmm. ok didn't imagine it was quite that large. still, i think to call laurie 'more successful' as though fry is some kind of also-ran is pretty misleading.

Bobby Hale is more successful than Dave Pace iirc

all that aside though the sentence "I'm starting to see why Hugh Laurie was the more successful member of the duo" is basically meaningless here xps

maybe if he didn't keep making so many unwise generalisations about human sexuality he'd've hit that magical 81.8 m viewer mark and become a real TV star

Laurie became a megastar thru playing loveable cuddly rogue Geoff House

I get the impression that he thinks he should have done something more substantial with his intellect and opportunities. Clive James admits to exactly this feeling.

Sounds plausible, but they're fooling themselves a bit I'd say. James's limits + talents are pretty clear: I think he's close to completely fulfilling his Clive James-ness. He's written good books and very good criticism; his novels and poems are good but wanting: it doesn't seem like he would have written the great Anglo-Australian novel if he hadn't been chuckling at Endurance. Fry's comparable; he's very bright, and has made brilliant things, but his major creative endeavours – the films, the novels – even when enjoyable don't suggest that the cheers of the vulgar mob have drawn away a major artist.

isn't house rubbish and Pete W mental

dLynks: I resisted, but here goesz/

My mother was telling me about how Hugh Laurie had all these feelings of depression for much the same reasons you just described (saves me from typing it all).. "How can he? He was in Stuart Little Two!!!"

Also in 'Sense and Sensibility'

House is great!

(it was the "two" that cracked me up at the time)

Now I remember why I usually stick to the football threads.

I haven't watched House in ages but I will bear witness to Laurie's amazing talent as a physical actor.

xpost. Interesting, woof. Maybe what really burns them up is the suspicion deep down that they don't have what it takes. But whether it's the feeling of having missed certain opportunities or the fear of not being up to snuff (the former possibly an alibi for the latter) I get the sense that there's a shard of self-loathing in Fry when he sits down to host QI or arrives on the set of Kingdom. (Possibly this is bullshit armchair psychology but I'm running with it.)

I get the sense that there's a shard of self-loathing in Fry when he sits down to host QI or arrives on the set of Kingdom.

Dunno. The dude wrote Me and My Girl when he was in his 20s. He's always been happy to, for want of a better phrase, slum it.

Yes, but there was a period between Wilde (1997) and Bright Young Things (2003) - after Fry & Laurie but before QI - when it seemed like he was trying to step things up.

Fry has done a bit better in films than Laurie e.g. Wilde vs Maybe Baby.

Laurie was in the superb Street Kings!

I get the sense that there's a shard of self-loathing in Fry when he sits down to host QI ...

Did Bamber Gascoigne feel the same way when he chaired University Challenge?

Doesn't everyone doing something "creative" secretly feel that what they do is worthless? On a minuscule level of this, I used to present/co-present a couple of shows a week on Talk Radio/TalkSport, and used to get very down thinking: "Is this really what it boils down to? Talking about football to phone callers on Saturdays and Sundays." It was my mum - who fundamentally believes any work other than public service is morally indefensible - who said the programmes brought some people pleasure, and that's more reward than most people ever get, so I should just stop moaning.

anyone who has any job secretly feels what they do is worthless

apart from tories

George Osbourne?

ha xp

haha

Sometimes I secretly feel that posting on ILX is worthless

Seems probable that there's some disappointment there - Fry (or James) couldn't be prone to basic cultural snobbery – TV/fame/success are vulgar, wrong – but they are well-read in an old-school kind of way that slaps a lot of intimidating cultural achievements in front of you - probably gets worse as you get older? Doors closing, no longer time to turn yourself into an Eliot (George, TS, w/e) of the age; 'I am entertaining millions' not the palliative it was in youth?

x-post NO!

Four Quartets is better than Clive James Laughs at Japanese People tbf

where does David Mitchell fit into this? he's like favourite clever clogs who will never do anything good again...

isn't house rubbish and Pete W mental

he might've been mental if he'd come back with 'if you had kids you'd understand why i want paedos strung up', which would've surprised me a lot had it happened

dunno about House but i did hate HL's Friends cameo

Mitchell may actually have gone mental

xpost Fry's such an extreme example because he's always held up as "clever" so any sense of being a fraud or disappointment would be intensified a hundredfold - it's the gulf between perception and achievement. Most of us don't have enough of a public profile to worry about perception.

xpost II Is that a rhetorical question or a genuine one, Mark G? I don't know much about Gascoigne's career.

xpost III There was an interesting discussion on the Slate podcast a while back about the myth of the "young" novelist - the idea that you can be 35 and still think that some classic is waiting to burst out of you - when most of the great novelists (or poets, or playwrights) were already well on their way by that age. Fitzgerald and Melville are well-known egs but I was surprised to discover that Faulkner had written As I Lay Dying and The Sound and the Fury before he was 35. The really sad thing about doors closing is the realisation that they were never really open. *kills self*

x-post

Hey, I'm running with it.

Fry has done a bit better in films than Laurie e.g. Wilde vs Maybe Baby.

Plus he wrote (adapted) and directed 'Bright Young Things'.

II: me neither. Believe he presented some 'wandering history' type progs...

Fry (and James, again) have likely felt a bit closer to BIG cultural achievement than most, too: didn't The Liar get terrific reviews when it came out? Probably could have thought he was on his way to being, idk, a Beerbohm at least.

I was surprised to discover that Faulkner had written As I Lay Dying and The Sound and the Fury before he was 35

ppl got things done quicker, neither masturbation nor warcraft had been invented iirc

people died younger too...more pressure

I have no hesitation in blaming ILX for my failure to write the 21st century's answer to The Sound and the Fury. I coulda been a contender.

I intend to publish a Christmas collection of my posts.

did mark s ever finish that book he was always writing?

But it stems from the fact that nothing has challenged and compromised my political views more than having a kid

you could substitute any number of life-changing experiences for "having a kid". would you take political advice from someone who, say, has been wrongly imprisoned and fled an oppressive regime just because they didn't have a kid? have their political views not been challenged enough? your own experience isn't enough to claim on behalf of others that breeding is the most politically challenging experience one can have in life. i'm sure you can think of any number of non-parents you'd gladly accept as a political authority before any given parent.

There was an interesting discussion on the Slate podcast a while back about the myth of the "young" novelist - the idea that you can be 35 and still think that some classic is waiting to burst out of you - when most of the great novelists (or poets, or playwrights) were already well on their way by that age. Fitzgerald and Melville are well-known egs but I was surprised to discover that Faulkner had written As I Lay Dying and The Sound and the Fury before he was 35. The really sad thing about doors closing is the realisation that they were never really open. *kills self*

off topic but here's something erika villani wrote on this topic, w/r/t lily allen's "22", which i'm not posting for any reason other than that it's a really great piece of writing (in a comments thread i really enjoyed participating in) that rings v true.

And now Robbie Savage has quite twitter as well. Gutted.

― on the cusp of eligibility (Ned Trifle II), Tuesday, November 2, 2010 3:28 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

Sav is back! Result! back of the net!

http://twitter.com/#!/RobbieSavage8/status/29487973274

Love that guy.

Love him or hate him - Robbie Savage is football's Mr Marmite.

thread comes full circle

can someone provide a link to the slate podcast referenced up there?

http://www.slate.com/id/2259789/

Inspired by this NY Times essay:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/20/books/review/Tanenhaus-t.html?_r=2&scp=2&sq=sam%20tanenhaus&st=cse

truth-bomb from a comment type on that Guardian piece:

"Women need to trust a sexual partner before going home with them. That process takes several hours. I'd put it at about six, although this varies wildly."

That first sentence makes sense, but the third sentence is weird. "About six" is strangely precise, while "this varies wildly" contradicts the "about six". I mean, is it about six or isn't it, and how can you know?

Lex, it was a rash indefensible statement that I would work up into some sort of troll-bait op-ed if I was so inclined and didn't have to put the nipper in the bath.

Lord_Sugar Lord Sugar
Sorry but why does every one love Fry so much let me know so I can undo my charisma bypass
8 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

^ still butthurt that Fry never repped for the Amstrad CPC