Eminem-My Name Is, slightly dated?

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Heard this last night on EMTV and as much as I liked it back then it struck me just how much better his rapping became by the second album, is it because of how much more caustic and cutting he became that My Name Is now sounds like a quirky pop record? In this sense he outdid himself a bit maybe? Like for example the "ask him if he bought a porno mag to see my ass" diss seems very chirpy and watery when compared to the later disses at his dad.

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 13:18 (twenty-three years ago)

i dunno about "dated" but his voice has changed. it's less squeaky, and more throaty. if that is a word.

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 13:27 (twenty-three years ago)

He's also, by his own account, become a better rapper -- learned how to work with and against the beat, etc. Definitely if you put "My Name Is" up against, say, "Business," you can hear a big difference. Still love "My Name Is," though.

― Jesse Fox (Jesse Fox), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 14:08 (twenty-three years ago)

oh, and also, he sucks.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 14:44 (twenty-three years ago)

What a witty remark, I bet you bring the house down when joking alone.

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 14:57 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeah, I rock, just like Hans Blix/all you wack MCs tryin' to learn to my tricks

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 14:59 (twenty-three years ago)

The only people who think Eminem has skillz are people who hate hip hop. He is to rap what Shania Twain is to country.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 15:04 (twenty-three years ago)

We've lost another one over the board cap'n

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 15:08 (twenty-three years ago)

horace is really rockin the foundations of the critical establishment with these ultra-radical ideas!!

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 15:11 (twenty-three years ago)

right, because the critical establishment really fucking cares about Eminem. He will leave no trace. Talk to me in 8 years.
No rapper, not even LL has been able to seriously sustain a career. Today's thug is tomorrow's Richard Belzer sidekick.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 15:13 (twenty-three years ago)

there he goes again!

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 15:14 (twenty-three years ago)

You want the full meal deal? Buy my books. You want off-the-cuff pithiness (and pissiness), welcome to ILM

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 15:15 (twenty-three years ago)

"welcome"

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 15:16 (twenty-three years ago)

DO NOT FEED THE TROLL.

― Trollwatchers Inc, Tuesday, 28 January 2003 15:20 (twenty-three years ago)

dont blame ILM for you being a humorless twat horace, that's hardly fair, especially when you consider what a humorless twat you are.

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 15:22 (twenty-three years ago)

when it first came out my friend magda and i could not work out what he was saying, we eventually settled on 'slam zany' i think, it was the fremme neppa venette of 1999.
i think chirpy eminem is my favourite kind tho

― minna (minna), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 15:31 (twenty-three years ago)

"Today's thug is tomorrow's Richard Belzer sidekick."
Humorless you say?

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 15:33 (twenty-three years ago)

What books, Horace?

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 15:33 (twenty-three years ago)

"Today's thug is tomorrow's Richard Belzer sidekick."
Ned Beatty was a thug?

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 15:35 (twenty-three years ago)

CHILL OUT!

― Arnie (James Blount), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 15:36 (twenty-three years ago)

I prefer him when he mixes the chirpy with the other, obvious but perhaps too simple analysis being cleaning out my closet era=too dark, Stan era=happy medium, my name is era=slightly too chirpy.

That's my opinion anyway.

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 15:36 (twenty-three years ago)

tom, i can think you can sub in any "classic rock-write books"

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 15:40 (twenty-three years ago)

J-J-Jim DeRogatis? Posting to MY LITTLE BOARD??? It's an honour, Sir!

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 15:43 (twenty-three years ago)

We're gonna need a bigger boat.

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 15:46 (twenty-three years ago)

If only all his songs were "The Mushroom Song"...the pinnacle of his abilities, if'n you ask me.

Which you didn't, but hey, whatevah!

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 15:52 (twenty-three years ago)

he used to rap like a five year old. now he raps like a ten year old. an improvement is an improvement.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 15:56 (twenty-three years ago)

(julio is obv dave tompkins in disguise)

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 15:58 (twenty-three years ago)

and eminem has never, to my knowledge, idiotically equated the selling of britney spears records to 14-year-olds with rape.

― Robbie Turner, Tuesday, 28 January 2003 15:58 (twenty-three years ago)

no, but the super silent six remix on the white label is da shit. word.

― robotman, Tuesday, 28 January 2003 15:59 (twenty-three years ago)

julio did you try listening to him a second time?

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 15:59 (twenty-three years ago)

(doomie that's the exact same joke I made on your wonderwall thread, this teacher says "must try harder")

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 16:00 (twenty-three years ago)

what a remarkable little ten year old.

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 16:00 (twenty-three years ago)

how did you guess jessica?!

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 16:01 (twenty-three years ago)

why are you buggin'. dude just chill out and enjoy some of those irish rays. : - ) word.

― robotman, Tuesday, 28 January 2003 16:02 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeah he certainly whipes the floor with lil bow wow, though I fail to see the similarities stylistically. Julio?

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 16:06 (twenty-three years ago)

I'd compare him to mozart actually.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 16:07 (twenty-three years ago)

one of either mack daddy or daddy mack are better

― minna (minna), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 16:10 (twenty-three years ago)

(not true)

― minna (minna), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 16:11 (twenty-three years ago)

(y'know, just making sure...)

― minna (minna), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 16:14 (twenty-three years ago)

not dated, because it sounded crappy to me and it sounds crappy now. wonky beat, weak jokes. i'm still amazed that shit launched his career, and that he doesn't get more shit about it (although i will give him credit for saying he hates the track himself).

― Al (sitcom), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 18:53 (twenty-three years ago)

The beat still sounds great I think - there's a few dancehall tracks that use it and it's always thrilling. Eminem's rhymes sound really slow now but I still like the track.

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 18:57 (twenty-three years ago)

I've recently realized my main problem with Em is also my main problem with Zack de la Rocha...all songs are about the same damn thing.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 19:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I'd never even heard Em until I moved to a bigger city recently and they play about six songs off Eminem Show pretty darn frequqently, plus the inescapable L0SE Y0URSELF. Then someone played My Name Is and, it's different. Silly. Sounds like music I would make.

― Fivvy, Tuesday, 28 January 2003 19:02 (twenty-three years ago)

didn't lil bow wow change his name?

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 19:09 (twenty-three years ago)

"The only people who think Eminem has skillz are people
who hate hip hop."

Very unusual statement, and decidedly not true. Eminem has
wide acceptance - from not only critics, but from other
MC's and grassroots hip-hop fans - you know, those
people on the subway with huge headphones.

As for "My Name Is" being dated? Nah, not really.
I listened to it yesterday and it's still one of
my favorite Eminem tracks. Sure, it's goofy, but
Eminem never came up with a better chorus (with
the possible exception of "Criminal"), and
the music is perfect: thudding, twiddly funk
that demands attention.

My overall thoughts on Eminem: he's a good MC, with many
great songs, but overall he's inconsistent. He's best
when trying to be funny or vicious, but his serious
songs tend to bore me.

― Squirlplise, Tuesday, 28 January 2003 19:51 (twenty-three years ago)

And let's keep things in perspective - the song is only 4
years old. It's an eternity for the Internet, true, but
it's not that long for the music biz. Heck, it's not unusual
for major bands to go longer than that long between new albums,
though independant artist's continue to release a new album
every year or so, often of consistent quality.

― Squirlplise, Tuesday, 28 January 2003 19:56 (twenty-three years ago)

"The only people who think Eminem has skillz are people
who hate hip hop."

Yeah, seriously Horace, where did you come up with *this* one?! It's okay to not like him, but don't be an offensive prick!

― Clarke B., Tuesday, 28 January 2003 20:31 (twenty-three years ago)

"No rapper, not even LL has been able to seriously sustain a career."

?????

― Clarke B., Tuesday, 28 January 2003 20:33 (twenty-three years ago)

Okay, I went looking for a fight posting that on IL-Em...but really, what is it about Eminem that makes him any better than say, Kool Keith (who has an extremely similar rhyming style and zero grammys)?

And really, who in rap has been able to sustain a career more than tokenly? Even just take this as a purely poppist question, who in hip hop has been able to consistently chart for more than a few albums?

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 20:36 (twenty-three years ago)

Er. Dre springs immediately to mind.

― mark p (Mark P), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 20:38 (twenty-three years ago)

As a producer, not as a rapper.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 20:39 (twenty-three years ago)

(Also: is anyone more token than Kool Keith?)

― mark p (Mark P), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 20:41 (twenty-three years ago)

Ice Cube hasn't had a meaningful album in years. The only song from Dre's last one that did anything featured Eminem. With all due respect to the Kings of Rock, Run DMC justed sounded sad throughout the 90s. Even Jay-Z knows he's got a best before date stamped on his ass.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 20:42 (twenty-three years ago)

Kool Keith? Token? I'm confused.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 20:42 (twenty-three years ago)

the Beastie Boys

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 20:44 (twenty-three years ago)

And anyway as soon as you start talking about 'charting' then you're not talking about hip-hop per se, more just pop music. So it appears that you're willfully conflating things in order to make some tiresomely r*ckist point...

― mark p (Mark P), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 20:44 (twenty-three years ago)

Nickalicious, I'm (perhaps wrongly) parsing Horace's earlier use of 'tokenly' to mean something parallel to 'gimmicky' or 'schticky'. Which, if correct, makes one wonder why Kool Keith is being positioned as an antidote to all of that.

― mark p (Mark P), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 20:47 (twenty-three years ago)

Ah, gotcha!

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 20:51 (twenty-three years ago)

I think you're reading a lot into pretty clear words. I haven't made any mention of "tokenly" in this thread, and I was pretty specific about why I used KK as an example. If you're not prepared to debate your points then I'll just go back to my original positation:
Eminem sucks y'all.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 20:55 (twenty-three years ago)

And really, who in rap has been able to sustain a career more than tokenly?

― mark p (Mark P), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 21:00 (twenty-three years ago)

fuck man, that wasn't me, learn to read

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 21:02 (twenty-three years ago)

I started reading all the posts on this thread, and simply got bored, so excuse me if I repeat something already stated.

Eminem seems to now take himself *EXTREMELY* seriously, whereas upon his debut -- love'im or hate'im -- he was considerably more fun. How does anyone stay interested?

I agree with Horatio, though....he'll be a footnote before too long.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 21:04 (twenty-three years ago)

Em is pop. Pop is disposable. That's why we like it. Because we know it will go away when we're done with it.

― jill.k, Tuesday, 28 January 2003 21:07 (twenty-three years ago)

Em = no fun, running 1st person non-fiction commentary on every aspect of his life like we give two flying fucks and never anything else, voice thin and nasally, has never rhymed the word "dirigible", became well-known while working with uberproducer Dre, has beat out The Roots for a Grammy

Keith = way fun, alternates between total cartoony fantasy freak and detailing his exploits in the game of pornography, voice beefy and throaty, one of only 3 MCs I know of to rhyme the word "dirigible" (along with Del and myself), became well-known while working with uberproducer Dan the Automator, has never even been nominated for a Grammy

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 21:10 (twenty-three years ago)

Off the top of my head...

KRS-1
Public Enemy
LL Cool J
Wu-Tang Clan + offshoots
Gang Starr
Kool Keith
De La Soul

All have been going at least 10 years... in varying states of critical and popular acclaim, but if you want to make charting and putting out good music criteria for sustaining a long career, you won't find too many artists outside of hip-hop who are up to snuff either... maybe KRS is just in his Lost Years heheh

― Ben Williams, Tuesday, 28 January 2003 21:13 (twenty-three years ago)

The Roots have been going 10+ years, and every album they release does far better than the last.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 21:15 (twenty-three years ago)

I just think Eminem severely needs to pull a new rabbit (ho ho ho ho!) out of his hat next time, as who really needs YET ANOTHER album decrying his shitty family situation and how much people hate him?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 21:34 (twenty-three years ago)

fuck man, that wasn't me, learn to read

Horace are you drunk or just a particularly uninspired troll?

― mark p (Mark P), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 21:58 (twenty-three years ago)

I was going to say, The Roots, Outkast, LL (who most certainly DOES count, seeing as he has two current top 40 hits at the moment), Will Smith, P. Diddy (sadly), and Tupac (even though he's been DEAD for seven years) all come to mind.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 22:17 (twenty-three years ago)

Eminem is pretty disposable, I don't think twice about him. I hear his singles and I think, "eh, that was mildly entertaining" - but having a large impact on hip-hop, sustainable career, etc?? Puh-leeze, only the greats pull that off (and most of them have already been mentioned). But seriously, stack Em up against Outkast (4 albums, all great, all commercial and critical successes and no signs of stopping), the guy's a fucking joke.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 28 January 2003 22:23 (twenty-three years ago)

but his talent is immense. for a 10 year old at least. Mozart took what, until 14 to do as much for music as eminem. quite an achievement sez I.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 22:25 (twenty-three years ago)

But Shakey, Eminem has already released three albums to great critical acclaim and is currently rolling out artists on his own label like D12 (not a huge success) and 50 Cent (looks good so far). If anything, Eminem and Outkast are following very similar trajectories.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 22:26 (twenty-three years ago)

Except that Outkast are fun and funky.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 22:28 (twenty-three years ago)

D12/50 Cent vs. the Dungeon Family = no contest.

Em's got novelty ("ooh! he's white! and angry!") and "offensiveness" (he doesn't offend me, but that's what everyone seems to focus on) as his key selling points. Outkast have sonic unpredictability and the whole "Southern"/"Space" thing as theirs. Again, no contest.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 28 January 2003 22:29 (twenty-three years ago)

And Eminem's career trajectory is distinctly different from Outkast because he's white. There's no denying it. This is the main focus of almost all the press I see, it's the key ingredient in the story for 8 Mile ("the white man - making it in a black man's world!"), it's a constant reference for him - it provides him with something to struggle with (oddly), conveying this bullshit "underdog" mythology.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 28 January 2003 22:31 (twenty-three years ago)

sorry. I still love any song that starts "Hi kids, do you like Violence (or even better, Primus!)? Wanna watch me stick nine inch nails through each one of my eyelids?"

Totally kicks "Lose Yourself"'s ass. Still my favorite of his "prancing around MTV, flipping the bird to everybody else" songs.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 23:25 (twenty-three years ago)

i don't think it's a throwaway thing to make chartpop out of emotional complexity and ugly intensity — he's not the only person doing it, but he does it well, and there isn't enough of it

another thing i really like about him is the completeness of his trust in hiphop, like it was just the most obvious and immediate vehicle and centre of expression for everyone

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 28 January 2003 23:27 (twenty-three years ago)

Shakey, the fact that you like Outkast more than Eminem does not invalidate the similarity of their career paths. Hell, I like Outkast et al more than Eminem and his crew, and I can see the parallel course.

Your "Outkast has sonic inventiveness" point is completely off because, just as you can hear the first five seconds of an Outkast backing track and know it's them, you can hear the first five seconds of any Eminem backing track and know it's him.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 03:28 (twenty-three years ago)

another thing i really like about him is the completeness of his trust in hiphop, like it was just the most obvious and immediate vehicle and centre of expression for everyone

v. interesting observation, tho i don't immediately recognize it.

Em's significance transcends hiphop or even pop music. He's a cultural figure, a pundit, a performance artist. And yes, his being white has something to do with it - his choice of medium is a statement (which, come to think of it, is maybe like what you were saying mark?).

I don't have ears that are educated enough to really evaluate mc skills, but his are undeniable no? He blows Jigga away on Renegade and not just on the writing, right? (Please tell me why I'm wrong if so - I'm still interested in that response to Greil Marcus about leading the beat). And if his 'technique' is what's dated about "My Name Is," well, clearly he wasn't showing it off on that one? The whole point of that song was hello-look-at-me-I'm-going-to-speak-really-slowly-and-deliberately-so-you-non-hiphop-people-can-catch-up-and-pay-attention (see also Stan)?

Outkast is sorta significant too (and I listen to them much more than Em), but moreso on a musical level. Their lyrics boil down to: 1) make money and get over without hurting other people (Wu Tang), 2) you can do the hiphop thing and still be a freak and sensitive (De La) [wait, they just combined my two favorite hiphop groups]. Em is beyond that. What I really want to know is whether the intelligence he displays is un-self-consciously apparent or cautiously revealed.

n.b. I don't deny that he has been at various times self-involved to put it mildly, reckless, and homophobic.

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 03:42 (twenty-three years ago)

call me one uptight honky, but I like it when I can tell what rappers are saying. Whether by slowing down or turning down the bass, I appreciate when they make that possible.

Which isn't to say I want everybody ape Kurtis Blow (ok, I want Ja Rule to start aping Kurtis Blow - I'd love it if that game-show-announcer old-school voice came out of his mouth instead of the usual constipated groan). Outkast enunciate plenty for a non-hip-hop person like myself.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 03:52 (twenty-three years ago)

Y'know what, this is exactly the same thing people were saying about Trent Reznor 8 yrs ago. Now he's selling portable fans out of the back of his mama's station wagon. Marshall Mathers III should be so lucky.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 03:59 (twenty-three years ago)

yeah, but Trent only made one song you could dance to. Plus his lyrics were distinctly UNimpressive.

Unless you could really relate when he said "my blood wants to say hello to you."

Actually, "I Am Whatever You Say I Am (Popeye's Lament)" and "Lose Yourself (Eye Of The Whiny Tiger)" are pretty close to NIN-rap (if only power chords showed up on the choruses!). That's not a good sign. I pray you're wrong, Horace. I pray that you are wrong.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 04:08 (twenty-three years ago)

(if only power chords showed up on the choruses!).

well if that's what you're after, search/download the Jacknife Lee remix of Em's "Cleaning Out My Closet" - hair metal guitars all the fuck over it, amazing, sounds like Van Halen or something...

― Charlie (Charlie), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 04:31 (twenty-three years ago)

sweet! Thanks for the tip, Charlie.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 04:33 (twenty-three years ago)

what is? there's no "complexity" in Trent fricking Reznor, who has contributed exactly zero to the culture at large. he's opera buffa, the male Tori. [none of this is to say i don't like him]

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 04:33 (twenty-three years ago)

and it really brings out the fact that if pushed, Em can actually probably sing as well! is there no end to his talent...

― Charlie (Charlie), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 04:34 (twenty-three years ago)

AND!!! oh my god I've just had the hugest moment of clarity...

Any of you mash-up kids fancy splicing "Cleaning Out My Closet" with Denim's "It Fell Off The Back Of A Lorry"? That would work so well...

― Charlie (Charlie), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 04:37 (twenty-three years ago)

Plus his lyrics were distinctly UNimpressive.

You were listening for the lyrics? Okay, I'll stop...FOR NOW. ;-)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 04:40 (twenty-three years ago)

Go listen to your Zwan, Ned. Shoo!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 04:43 (twenty-three years ago)

So you're saying you like it? ;-)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 04:44 (twenty-three years ago)

Wait? Trent is nothing? Man he predicted the whole nu-rock sound years ago and could probably make a killing producing these groups and as far as I know he's still got a career and The Fragile did pretty okay and he's getting all auteur-obsessive over his next album RIGHT NOW.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 06:17 (twenty-three years ago)

one could do worse than conjure up Eminem Reznor bootlegs considering how that "Victory" remix turned out

― Honda (Honda), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 06:19 (twenty-three years ago)

Trent is nothing? Man he predicted the whole nu-rock sound years ago

But you repeat yourself

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 06:34 (twenty-three years ago)

Moose.... Indian....

― Dan I., Wednesday, 29 January 2003 08:07 (twenty-three years ago)

I love the way "he'll be a footnote in a few years" is like a terribly harsh criticism for various clowns on this thread, I mean jesus guys just because you like the stamp collecting vintage train side of consuming music don't expect anyone else to!

Also it's probably not true anyway.

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 13:14 (twenty-three years ago)

"various clowns" eh?

Up yours, Ronan. Time will tell & truth will out!

In the interim, this THREAD is slightly dated.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 14:04 (twenty-three years ago)

Sorry, you'll always be my favourite clown Alex, if it's any consolation.

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 14:09 (twenty-three years ago)

I appreciate that, Ronan, you fatuous cheese monkey.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 14:11 (twenty-three years ago)

The whole 'sustainable career' thing brings up something Pete and I were talking about the other week - which new acts in *any genre* has been able to sustain an albums-based career since MTV started (which is also about the time hip-hop started charting)? U2 for sure, Radiohead, REM perhaps (dont know how well theyve been selling since Monster)... the lack of career sustain is something endemic to modern pop, not just to hip-hop.

― Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 14:34 (twenty-three years ago)

The whole "Trent Reznor is a footnote in musical history" criticism makes me laugh because EVERYONE is a footnote in musical history.

Oh, and Tom? Madonna and Janet Jackson are conspicuously absent from your list.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 14:36 (twenty-three years ago)

Trent Reznor has become a footnote, inarguably......as will Eminem. `Tis part of the cyle. The question of whether that artist can continue to produce music of quality and distinction despite no longer being in the limelight (i.e. despite having become a footnote) is the real meat of the matter.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 14:52 (twenty-three years ago)

It's also something that you will NEVER get everyone to agree on. I mean, centuries after the fact you still have people who hate Palestrina, Monteverdi, Beethoven, Mozart, Brahms, Bach, Tallis, Byrd, Schuetz, and so on, and these are composers whose output form the backbone of the European classical canon. What hope do you think we'll have of agreeing on the merits of Trent Reznor a mere thirteen years after his national debut?

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 15:24 (twenty-three years ago)

Indeed - sorry Madonna and JJ. To be fair when Pete and I thought of the question we were thinking about rock bands.

― Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 15:25 (twenty-three years ago)

Can't people become footnotes and then get resurrected again or become subject to a massive reappraisal or whatever. Wasn't someone like Nick Drake consigned to footnote status for a while? I'm surprised people still say "noone will like this in ten years", I mean maybe they're right but why not tell us what people will like in ten years, what few acts from now? Very difficult.

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 15:30 (twenty-three years ago)

Peter Noone is always a decade behind the times (ha ha).

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 15:31 (twenty-three years ago)

Nick Drake was *ALWAYS* a footnote, though, even when he was alive and kicking, no? It took a Volkswagon ad two decades after his demise to give his career a jump-start.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 15:32 (twenty-three years ago)

(This is giving even more creedence to my position that everyone is a footnote. Yay!)

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 15:34 (twenty-three years ago)

"everyone is a footnote"

Is Madonna?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 15:36 (twenty-three years ago)

Madonna has had more impact on the fashion industry than the music industry.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 15:38 (twenty-three years ago)

Sure, but is she a footnote? I'm of the mindset that she has graduated -- like Elvis & the Beatles -- into an impenetrable pantheon wherein she is incapable of being rendered a footnote.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 15:40 (twenty-three years ago)

Like Bowie; they're both footwear notes

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 15:40 (twenty-three years ago)

More hip-hop 10+ year careers...

Nas
Scarface
Ice-T
Snoop
Redman

And actually, I think producers do count. Saying they don't is like saying the only person who matters in a rock band is the singer. So at the least you have (must be more here)...

Prince Paul
Dre
Premier

― Ben Williams, Wednesday, 29 January 2003 15:44 (twenty-three years ago)

If you talk in terms of music rather than artists, then everyone is a footnote. If you talk in terms of artists rather than music, then the people who aren't footnotes depend entirely on the angle you ar focusing on.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 15:46 (twenty-three years ago)

Alex, that's exactly my point, what is and isn't a footnote is completely random anyway. I don't disagree with Dan I suppose.

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 15:47 (twenty-three years ago)

(and not just cos I fear the sodomizing bee stick)

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 15:47 (twenty-three years ago)

(although it is good that you do *bzzzzzzzzzz*)

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 15:48 (twenty-three years ago)

*dim cries*

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 15:49 (twenty-three years ago)

okeydokey, so, the people who have sustained careers (as performers, let's call it, because producing, really has a lot more to do with the bizness side of things) are people who have had middling success (come ON, Ice T??? does he deserve to be on that list?). (Sure Redman has made crap movies and deodorant commercials, but your dad doesn't know who he is.)
Here's what's really at the heart of what I'm getting at regarding hip hop not being a sustainable career: It eats its stars. So does most other forms of pop music, but hip hop is especially bad at it, largely because there's such a chasm between those who write the checks and those that cashes 'em.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 15:54 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeah, just keep qualifying what counts as a sustainable career...

― Ben Williams, Wednesday, 29 January 2003 15:55 (twenty-three years ago)

(Another thing to note is how many hip-hop stars have transitioned to a different career: acting. I mean really, you can't go to the movies these days without seeing some rapper on screen. Someone like Ice Cube doesn't make records any more cos he's too busy starring in films)

― Ben Williams, Wednesday, 29 January 2003 15:59 (twenty-three years ago)

No, I'm conceding you a point here fuckwad.
I'm saying that the people who last longest in the music bizz tend to be those who walk a middle path (of course there are exceptions), not those who shoot up to no. one out of nowhere.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 16:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I can't wait to see Kool Keith in the movies. Maybe as a plastic-wigged nemesis to Neo in Matrix 4?

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 16:07 (twenty-three years ago)

on the creedence thread we — = I — talked a bit abt rock hitting a IDENTITY REQUIRES SENSE-OF-OWN-HISTORY MOMENT (what i didn't say wz that this wz a mid-life crisis called punk, and it happened sorta kinda 20-25 years into rock-and-roll's history)

from the outset hiphop has had a KINDA sense-of-own-history built into its identity, being quite argumentatively critically mediated from much earlier, relatively speaking, than rock'n'roll was, but — possibly bcz it wasn't marketed quite so intensively in terms of generation gaps and hope-i-die-b4-i-get-old — i don't believe it's had to start panicking abt careering into its own mid-life crisis

(note: i am not suggesting this mid-life crisis will be a recognisable analogue of punk, cz i doubt it will be)

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 16:07 (twenty-three years ago)

so yeah, that means rock has established a second-ring circuit (listeners as well as playas)

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 16:09 (twenty-three years ago)

You know what my favourite Dilbert strip is? It's the one where
Dilbert goes into the boss's office, and goes "We've finally finished that report you wanted. It took seven weeks, and input from 53 division, but we've finished it".

Boss: Was that the one about why our decision making process is flawed?

Dilbert: It originally started as that, but it morphed into more of a discussion on squirrel mating habits.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 16:17 (twenty-three years ago)

You're not conceding the point very gracefully, Horace. First you dismiss Redman cos your dad hasn't heard of him (ie, he's not a star). Then you say that what you really mean is that those who last longest in the music business are those that walk a middle path. Aren't Redman (and Ice-T) examples of that middle path? Neither of them were ever massive commercially; Ice-T had one controversial moment in the sun, but it didn't generate big hits. Another example on these lines: Too Short.

I think the thing is that the hip-hop audience always wants the fresh sound. That's built into the music's competitive, battle aesthetic. It's important to name-check your forebears in hip-hop, but you better not sound like them. So I wouldn't blame the "chasm between those who write the checks and those that cashes 'em" for hip-hop's star turnover (which I do agree is more extreme than other musics); it's central to the music itself. At the same time, stars don't just go away, and it's possible for second-tier rappers to hang around.

― Ben Williams, Wednesday, 29 January 2003 16:19 (twenty-three years ago)

This I don't agree with. I think this is a pop impulse (which its fair enough to discuss when we're talking about Eminem), rather than a hip-hop one. If this was true, Jurassic 5 (and Blackalicious and People Under The Stairs and etc) wouldn't sell any records. The "latest! greatest! up to datest!" movement seems to be the principal driving factor behind mainstream chart music at the moment (it may have always been so, I'm not too sure about this).

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 16:22 (twenty-three years ago)

Maybe as a plastic-wigged nemesis to Neo in Matrix 4?

I am quite down with the idea of Kool Keith killing Keanu Reeves. On or offscreen.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 16:22 (twenty-three years ago)

"First you dismiss Redman cos your dad hasn't heard of him (ie, he's not a star)."

I don't think that was a dismissal so much as an observation that Redman has yet to achieve a level of success/greatness/prominece comparable to, once again, Bowie or Madonna (who I'd reckon everyone's Dad has heard of).

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 16:23 (twenty-three years ago)

My dad owns Outkast albums. Of course, my dad's as weird as I am.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 16:25 (twenty-three years ago)

I meant he was dismissing Redman's place on a list of hip-hoppers with sustained careers, nitpicker...

― Ben Williams, Wednesday, 29 January 2003 16:25 (twenty-three years ago)

Assuming that everyone's dad has heard of David Bowie is a pretty huge leap, IMO. What one person finds ubiquitous and over-arching is almost guaranteed to not even register as a blip on SOMEONE'S radar (and I'm talking about people who live in the expected demographic, not someone living a hermit's life on top of a remote mountain).

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 16:26 (twenty-three years ago)

Do Blackalicious and People Under The Stairs sound like old hip-hop? Haven't really listened to 'em much; what I've heard of Blackalicious doesn't sound particularly retro.

Jurassic 5 are the obvious name to haul out when you're talking about retro--ie, the exception the proves the rule (and even there, I liked what Harry Allen wrote about them recently, where he said they were finding out "What's possible when you have the manpower equivalent of two Run-D.M.C.s onstage at once?")

― Ben Williams, Wednesday, 29 January 2003 16:30 (twenty-three years ago)

"Assuming that everyone's dad has heard of David Bowie is a pretty huge leap, IMO"

I'm not suggesting that the average Dad could debate the sonic nuances rife within the remastered version of DIAMOND DOGS, but simply that they're likely to have at the very least *HEARD HIS NAME* before.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 16:33 (twenty-three years ago)

I repeat: "Assuming that everyone's dad has heard of David Bowie is a pretty huge leap, IMO".

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 16:36 (twenty-three years ago)

And I repeat back: I'm not suggesting that the average Dad could debate the sonic nuances rife within the remastered version of DIAMOND DOGS, but simply that they're likely to have at the very least *HEARD HIS NAME* before.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 16:38 (twenty-three years ago)

It's a fucking Moebius loop of a thread! "There is a theory..."

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 16:42 (twenty-three years ago)

There are huge swaths of America where it wouldn't surprise me at all if they'd never heard of David Bowie (I grew up in a town like this).

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 16:43 (twenty-three years ago)

That's why he's afraid of America.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 16:44 (twenty-three years ago)

Changin' gears...

I see Eminem quickly becoming like Lenny Bruce in LB's final performing days when he would just go onstage and read the transcripts from his obscenity trials. Eminem seems to really buy into his own cult of personality and believe that "his public" cares about every little detail of his nonspectacular life. "Cleaning Out My Closet"??? Come on! What's next, a rap about how math was hard for him?

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 16:47 (twenty-three years ago)

horace and alex's rock-write sincerity is inspiring

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 16:49 (twenty-three years ago)

"stan" is the best song abt the artist-audience relationship i've ever come across

what's wrong with a song abt why maths wz hard for him? if it works, it works

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 16:59 (twenty-three years ago)

"stan" is the best song abt the artist-audience relationship i've ever come across

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH.

Sorry. No need to repeat my full feelings about Eminem here, but this is my candidate for the most overrated song of the last five years...

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 17:06 (twenty-three years ago)

the song is abt you and me ned, how can u deny this?

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 17:13 (twenty-three years ago)

PS On the thread topic, I don't really have an opinion on Eminem, but I liked Kelefa Sanneh's New Yorker review of his last album last year, in which Sanneh talked about how Eminem's old stuff seemed so representative of the excess of the late 90s boom era, and asked whether it was too soon to be nostalgic for it yet...

― Ben Williams, Wednesday, 29 January 2003 17:20 (twenty-three years ago)

the song is abt you and me ned, how can u deny this?

Your fan letters to me were far more coherent.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 17:20 (twenty-three years ago)

"What's next, a rap about how math was hard for him?"

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHahahahahahahahahaha.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 17:21 (twenty-three years ago)

But David Bowie pranced around in Pepsi ads. Before they'd let just anybody do it!

Back on track:

artistically, but not commercially

Slim Shady LP=Dirty Mind (in which we truly introduce the new freek of the week)

Marshall Mathers LP=Controversy (where the story gets further fucked, and celebrity status comes into play)

Eminem Show=1999 (lyrically becoming a bit redundant, but the beats growing in idiosyncratic power)

8 Mile=Puprle Rain (moviewise, if IMO, not album quality-wise. I'll say "Lose Yourself" is his "When Doves Cry" in that both songs represented the artist's cry for Sympathy as opposed to the artist just thrusting their perversity at us. But in no way do I prefer the music of "Lose Yourself")

If this trend continues then Eminem's Around The World In A Day is right around the corner. Yow!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 17:21 (twenty-three years ago)

'stan' really works!

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 17:23 (twenty-three years ago)

If this trend continues then Eminem's Around The World In A Day is right around the corner. Yow!

I'd prefer his Jobriath move. Not necessarily separated at birth, but if you squint...

http://championstudios.net/jobriath/cover.jpg

http://zavarka.com/picture/eminem/1.jpg

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 17:36 (twenty-three years ago)

Come on Alex you don't actually find that funny do you? I mean that's a pretty poor joke by any standards.

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 17:36 (twenty-three years ago)

Well, it struck me a funny, sorry Mr.Po-face. I also think there's some truth behind the statement. If Eminem doesn't try something new/different on his next track (beyond how the world is out to get him and how shitty his private life is), I anticipate a nation yawning at him.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 17:39 (twenty-three years ago)

Anthony, are you intentionally ignoring the two Prince albums before _Dirty Mind_?

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 18:26 (twenty-three years ago)

sorta. Prince qua Prince (ooh, I sound like Christgau) isn't really as evident on those albums. Also the analogy doesn't work as well then.

For the hell of it, let's say the first two albums are Eminem's indie stuff. Before Eminem as we know him and Prince as we know him were truly defined.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 18:31 (twenty-three years ago)

the slim shady ep = just about the same em we know now!

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 18:32 (twenty-three years ago)

Someone could probably argue that for the "Prince" album too. Leave my analogy alone, you fiends! Yer just jealous!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 18:45 (twenty-three years ago)

If Eminem does an Under the Cherry Moon style thing featuring him in the south of France filmed in black and white with a trembling sexually ambiguous persona *and* releases a single as mighty as "Kiss" to go along with it, then you will clearly rule.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 18:47 (twenty-three years ago)

you may have to settle for his 8-Mile follow-up being merely a blatantly insane and indulgent piece of puffery (With a kickass single, that we can only PRAY samples the beat from "Kiss" - Jesus, Eminem rapping over that beat...ahhhhhhhh). But we can't expect the analogy to fit as tightly as your undeniably valid desire.

And where the fuck IS Jerome Benton these days? I miss him. I can't believe Kristin Scott-Thomas's career survived Cherry Moon and Benton's didn't.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 18:53 (twenty-three years ago)

we can only PRAY samples the beat from "Kiss" - Jesus, Eminem rapping over that beat...ahhhhhhhh

Bootleggers, on your marks!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 19:24 (twenty-three years ago)

Eminem doesn't deal very well with syncopation.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 19:25 (twenty-three years ago)

(In his beats, that is; his delivery is already syncopated to the point that putting a syncopated beat under him wouldn't work.)

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 19:25 (twenty-three years ago)

yeah, lately his beats have like no syncopation, they're like glum marches for him to tangle his words around with steadily rising minor chord strings and pianos. sort of like a hollywood RZA getting off the treadmill to climb a mountain if that makes any sense at all.

― Honda (Honda), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 20:17 (twenty-three years ago)

syncopawha? I want Eminem rappin' over "Kiss!" I WANNIT! I WANNIT! *tears at bib, slams plate against table, gets psghetti all over the place*

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 20:21 (twenty-three years ago)

*points, laughs* Immature wittle BABY. *adjusts bib and eats zwieback*

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 29 January 2003 21:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I agree that Eminem is terribly self-involved, but the question we really should be asking is whether he'll just be a footnote to my career, or whether he'll turn out to be central to it.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Saturday, 1 February 2003 20:23 (twenty-three years ago)

here's his take, transcribed from his latest online-only track:

"who the fuck is this bitch called Kogan?
ridin' Em's jock must be his slogan!
don't got a clue so I'll give you one
you look like the guy from the Scorpions!
he thinks I'm a prude just tryin to be rude
with my punk attitude...I didn't ask ya dude!
say what you say but gay is gay
and he's from San Francisco so hey hey hey!
Village Voice critics always up in my grill
I'm father of the year (nerd voice: but he says he's gonna kill!)
I just might in the middle of the night
thanks to Mutherfuck Eddy, you boho suburbanite!
But between all this porn it's hard to read the text!
they're lucky...or else this Christgau'd be next!
Give me an A-minus...my shit's an a-plus!
I'll put my foot in your ass. Now please: discuss!
Pazz'n'jop...I love you. ha ha."

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 1 February 2003 21:04 (twenty-three years ago)

You need to be his songwriter.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 1 February 2003 22:13 (twenty-three years ago)

(I can't believe I missed a chance to defend Trent.) (Also: is there anybody around who isn't a footnote next to Em right now?) (Did we have a 50 cent thread?)

― bnw (bnw), Saturday, 1 February 2003 23:08 (twenty-three years ago)

On a side not, don't you think Trent should cover "Cry Me a River"? C'mon, beefed up a bit, that track would make a fine addition to the NIN canon. Can't you just hear him slaughtering the "DAMAGE IS DONE, SO I GUESS I'LL BE LEAVIN'" bit? I can.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 1 February 2003 23:16 (twenty-three years ago)

just spent the evening with my best lesb pal l., whose partner d = unexpectedly devoted em fan

l. said how much — not much thinking she wd — she LOVED 8 mile, not least cz of how GAY it wz: i said, you mean like it's basically a judy garland plot and she said NO SHE HADN'T EVEN THOUGHT OF THAT BUT THAT'S TRUE TOO, and reeled off abt ten grebt gay things abt it

so anyway the north london queer massive, aged punkah division, say reprazent, i guess

(later on she called van morrison "a stinking black hole of negative energy")

― mark s (mark s), Sunday, 2 February 2003 01:58 (twenty-three years ago)

I'm with the Morrison comment there.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 2 February 2003 02:31 (twenty-three years ago)

I think I only listen to dated music. The other stuff is too indistinctive.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Sunday, 2 February 2003 04:44 (twenty-three years ago)

"One Chord Wonders" is WAY better than "Stan," Mark.

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Sunday, 2 February 2003 06:37 (twenty-three years ago)

I think Trent's come awful close to making "cry me a river" already. Unfortunately he chickens out and goes for the Big Black guitar attack or his goth poetry chapbook.

― bnw (bnw), Sunday, 2 February 2003 06:44 (twenty-three years ago)

And that's a problem?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 2 February 2003 08:20 (twenty-three years ago)

ok i dont know if anybody is still reading this thread but ronan its only '...porno mag to see my ass' in the mtv/radio version, the actual rhyme is 'tell him that i slit his throat in this dream i had'!!

― xx, Sunday, 2 February 2003 19:05 (twenty-three years ago)

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