This thread is dedicated to Soul Coughing.

Barenaked Ladies? *raises eyebrow*

It's ..to the Mezzanine, though, not through the passing lane, Nick.

Thanks Alex! You RAWQUE!

but really: colossal rhythm section, astounding use of sampler-as-real-time-instrument, and naggingly catchy lyrics. a handful of tracks still really blow my mind: Lazybones, $300, The Bug, Super Bon Bon, Collapse...now that i think of it, i really can't listen to the first album much anymore, even though in many ways it's the best.

unfortunately i think i know a bit too much about certain members of the band, and it may have tainted my memories and feelings about the music some. oh well.

Favorite live experience: M Doughty's solo rendition of the intro to Madonna's "Like A Prayer", seguing perfectly into "Is Chicago, Is Not Chicago".

I saw them live in 1997, and at one point in the show Doughty accidentally dropped his guitar pick into the audience. My brother was in the front row and scooped it up. It was a normal, blue-colored pick, except for the plain white text on one side that read, simply: "Chelsea Clinton."

I felt like El Oso was also kind of a let-down, but the one, um, "So Far I Have Not Found the Science" still will just leap into my head and stay there every couple of days.

I'd never heard that, but it certainly makes sense.

also, yuval gubay had some nice drum work on krust's (of reprazent crew) "coded language" lp.

Yeah, the nonsense lyrics thing is there, but there's some sense on Ruby Vroom (more than their later albums). I've always loved the image of standing on the arms of the Williamsberg bridge crying "Hey man, well this is Babylon." Or of going savage for teenagers with automatic weapons and boundless love. These are cool-ass lyrics.

1. True Dreams of Wichita
2. Uh Zoom Zop
3. Mr. Bitterness
4. Janine
5. Theme from Rachel's Sitcom
6. Buddha Rubarb Butter
7. The Brooklynites
8. Murder of Lawyers
9. White Girl
10. Idiot Kings
11. How Many Cans?
12. Lazybones
13. Lemon Lime
14. Unmarked Helicopters
15. St. Louise Is Listening
16. Maybe I'll Come Down
17. Fully Retractable
18. I Miss the Girl
19. These Are the Reasons
20. 16 Horses
21. Rare Star Ball

None of the singles, obv, because a) I didn't want to include the ones she had already heard and it didn't feel right to, say include Soft Serve but not Screenwriter's Blues, b) I thought she might someday like to check out the Greatest Hits deal and c) I love love love so much of their rarer stuff

Doughty used to walk around stoned much of the time, babbling little phrases (like the causation/correlation bit) and scribbling beat poetry. It was kind of funny to see this turn up in his Soul Coughing lyrics years later. One of the funniest things I've ever seen was him (stoned as usual) with a girl he'd picked up (ditto) sitting at the dining room table trying to divide a phone bill three ways.

Maybe someone should honor his poor forgotten but influential roommate Mr. Dorgon someday.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj9xq7Lch00

One of my favorite bands ever.

Is it possible to start reviving this band's reputation yet? In amidst some goofiness and some poetry-slam yecch there's some moments that just cut through and strike me as better than almost anything else on record in the 90s. I mean, like:

"Leaning up against the wall
I will: lash out dancing like a madman when you're gone
I will spit the blue flame and hurl my glass against the wall
And I will hear your name called out from a boom box
I will hear your name called out from passing cars"

I'll be damned if anyone else has better summarized that feeling he's talking about. I should find the injection of poetry into jazzy sample-hop-rock grating and cheesy but the thing is I think the guy's actually okay at poetry, or at least he can turn a phrase that rolls off the tongue and also paints a picture:

"Well I dreamed a great parade, shooting all the guns in Brooklyn
The man who had a spare held out two and then you took one"

Every so often he gets a little too caught up or prose-y, but I still kinda like it:

"Six hoodlums, dicey,
their faces apostrophied with headphones,
surround you on the corner of Elizabeth and Spring
and disperse in six directions
like electrons used to scream off from the apple of the atom."

I mean, the guy is trying to compose a rap that compares the movements of hoodlums to outmoded atomic models, but he's not really rubbing your face in it, you can just kinda get lost in the fun of the words.

I dunno - I never listen to their CDs straight through anymore but I feel like it's time to stop denying that I love this band.

A couple new Mike Doughty albums have dropped lately

I do think this new direction he's going in is fine, but he has taken the opportunity to trash Soul Coughing so many times that it actually kinda hurts. I understand that he was in a bad place but he needs to accept that the music he made meant a lot to a lot of people and it makes his judgement look bad to try so hard to distance himself from that. A buddy of mine is friends with him on Facebook and got a real bitchy response from him for even bringing it up. In fact I emailed him once and didn't mention SC at all and also got a bitchy response.

What's behind his trashing SC?

xpost -- sounds like somebody to maybe just not communicate with. (I heard a track by chance of SC's the other week in listening to an old comp and it reconfirmed my impression that the band was really kinda insufferable to my ears.)

apparently he had a really big experience in SC, the other band members weren't nice enough to him, and he was battling some addiction demons, etc. etc., so he talks all the time about how terrible that was for him, but that's kinda extended into hating on the fans who want to hear the Soul Coughing songs or those who tell him how much they enjoyed that stuff

Ah, I see. Yeah, I was a big fan of the first two SC records. Never heard the Doughty solo records, but I caught him live in 2001-ish and was disappointed at the direction he'd gone in.

I'll still rep for Ruby Vroom being a great album at the time but I don't really have any desire to revisit it now.

I just remember XRT playing the hell out of that awful "Bustin' Up a Starbucks" song and thinking it'd be safe to write him off.

The first time I saw SC the only song I knew by them was "True Dreams Of Wichita," so I went in expecting some kind of downtempo, Tom Waits-y thing. Tiny club, packed to the rafters, they opened with "Is Chicago...' and the room fucking EXPLODED. That bassline and scratchy guitar riff never fail to get me excited to this day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FX4dQWzll8

yeah, I wonder why he doesn't write songs like that anymore, as he's claimed many times that he was the main creative force behind Soul Coughing...very few of his solo songs hit me like that . for whatever reason he just wants to be Dave Matthews, which is disturbing consdering how well his SC material railed against that kind of sound!

Saw SC on the tour with Jeff Buckley. He and Jeff kept namedropping each other in their songs... I remember Buckley altering "Hallelujah" and it was something like "... I know this room, I've walked this floor / I used to live with Mike Doughty before I knew you."

Doughty's book is out (I felt compelled to get it because I shared a house with him right before SC took off). Drugs, meaningless sex, I gotta be me, and fuck all my old bandmates 'cause they all suck and it was all my idea. That pretty much summarizes it.

I went back and put on the song by SC that I used to like "White Girl" and was struck once again by what a good drummer they had.

Book is "The Book of Drugs." Soul Coughing fans looking for anything other than bile are likely to be disappointed...

i still really like the first two SC albums. i wanted to read doughty's book; sorry to hear it's so bitter.

dlp's on the money with this, but I will contend that it was a decent read regardless, though you probably shouldn't expect too much narrative out of it. it jumps around a LOT and seems to leave out a lot of details. but essentially, most of the book is dedicated to how much he hates the other three Soul Coughing guys (AND his record label, AND all his friends, AND the whole New York music scene, AND of course, his fans)

I feel like it's Doughty's intention to make people who became fans of his through Soul Coughing (which is like, 75% of his fanbase) feel bad about liking them, which is just a shitty thing to do all around. He does imply many times that he was the genius of the band, but also that their records all sucked, and that his Dave Matthews-aping solo career is where he *really* got good, even though that career is basically him rewriting "St. Louise", "Soft Serve", and "Janine" over and over again, and that people liked SC for reasons other than himself, which is to say the rhythm section and use of the sampler were in fact the big draws!

yeah it's sad but kind of hilarious that dude who was by his own admission a junkie for most of the band's lifespan is still REALLY REALLY convinced that everyone around him at the time was an asshole, has to write a book about how uncomfortable he is with the whole reason people know who he is and pay his rent.

Sebastian Steinberg made a record under the name Homesick Orchestra a few years ago that's really grown on me, great low key stuff.

I blasted "Casiotone Nation" at a very high volume in the car yesterday and, yeah, they were about so much more than Doughty. The fact that they didn't get along is probably the reason why the albums are so good! (see also: The Shape of Punk to Come)

Doughty's solo work is decent, but I do get the feeling that he really wants to show his old audience, "this is what SC should have sounded like". I like the acoustic, "small rock" Doughty, Skittish really is a pretty great album, and the songs on Haughty Melodic are plenty good even if they're smashed with overproduction. His last couple were pretty good but I can't imagine anyone hearing them on the radio and thinking, "yeah, I got to buy that!"

He did have that one out-of-nowhere semi-hit though, right? Looking Out From The Bottom of a Well, something like that? It showed up a lot in the satellite radio feed at the last restaurant job I had.

But yeah - never been the slightest bit interested in the Doughty solo stuff later than "Never Gonna Come Back Down." Good for him if he likes it, but I dug and still dig Soul Coughing as outlined above. Some of the tics may not have aged well but generally some really strong material.

MD trashing SC is the first thing I've ever liked about him.

God, remember when that superbonbonbon song was unavoidable?

xp: I've heard a few of his songs on the radio - "27 Jennifers", "Busting Up a Starbucks", and "Na Na Nothing", all at restaurants (as it turns out)

there are parts in his book where he says things like "I would sometimes play Soul Coughing songs at my shows, but if I heard just one single yell of approval, it would feel like a dagger twisting in my heart", where it's like, dude, even if I HATED Soul Coughing, this would still make me cringe

first post itt is "deep like a baby seal"

you guys really read the fuck out of M Douty's book huh

i think i will too i guess

this thread kinda makes me want to, and that's an accomplishment

I do give it credit for being brutally honest. If anything is whitewashed, it sure as hell doesn't show. Obviously he's really hard on his bandmates but he doesn't really try to make himself come off as any better than them. Definitely very "readable" (as in, you'll probably want to read it all in one sitting)

definitely won't read the book, although he is a decent writer -- the music column he used to do as 'dirty sanchez' for the ny press was pretty funny

definitely won't read the book

we found the one piece of pop culture some dude is too good for

i will take the ribbing about being a loser shut-in who consumes an absurd amount of entertainment from a lot of people, but not the fucking 1000 Times Yes guy

a) I can listen and do listen to records outside of my house; b) giving a fuck about shit like Type Records and NNA Tapes is kind of world away from an adult man tweeting about what happened on Regis and Kelly.

i download Live With Kelly to my ipod and watch outside in the woods fyi

if you can't take an ironic zing from whiney you can't take whiney

i'm certainly not taking him to the forest for my daytime talk party

most of the book is dedicated to how much he hates the other three Soul Coughing guys (AND his record label, AND all his friends, AND the whole New York music scene, AND of course, his fans)

book is the snipiest thing i've ever read in my life. i read it in like two sittings because I couldn't put it down

dying laffing at roger adultery of all ppl having a problem w/ soul coughing way up top becuz of 'overt whiteness'!

WGW that was my impression exactly, it was definitely a very compelling read, you just wind up hating everyone in the book. I mean I get that the band was probably very dickish to Doughty but on the other hand it's clear that Doughty wanted complete control of the band plus the most money, and was pretty unreliable as a whole. It sounds like he's got a serious attitude like "if I don't get things exactly my way, then fuck you, I don't care about the result". Every time I listen to SC my impression is that the band is amazing and the songwriting is mediocre, but I like Doughty's innate ability to recognize a hook and I think he's a good frontman. But anyone could write a song like "Blue-eyed Devil".

Steinberg also spent some time in Marc Ribot's Shrek. Yo! I Killed Your God is a great record and is worth seeking out.

I remember seeing them once with Pavement, Sloan, and Beck which might be one of the 90s-est shows ever.

I actually listened to the three records again and still really like them, nostalgia or not. The drums, bass, and samples make it so much more interesting than any of the solo Doughty stuff that I've heard, which just reminds me why I could never stand Cake, King Missle, or other jokey / nerdy / whatever type bands of that era.

so does anyone prefer irrestible bliss to ruby vroom? i think i do now, probably didn't at the time.

interesting that people think his solo career is aping dave matthews, i remember when matthews realeased too much i thought it was a soul coughing rip.

so does anyone prefer irrestible bliss to ruby vroom? i think i do now, probably didn't at the time.

yes, totally. heard IB first and loved it, then for a while it was my least favorite of the 3, now i think it's their best.

all three albums run pretty similar to me; each has like 8-9 really great songs, then maybe 1 or 2 I could do without; I would imagine that Ruby Vroom is going to be the one they'll always be known for.

maybe the Dave comparison isn't the best, it's not like I can remember more than 5-6 songs by the guy. but his first solo records Haughty Melodic and Golden Delicious seemed to impersonate that "maximalist jam band" feel, which doesn't work for him because his songs are all very simple - as I mentioned earlier you can trace probably 80% of his songs back to the same 3-4 Soul Coughing tunes. His early acoustic sets (like Smofe + Smang) portray this in a striking way - he's alternating between SC stuff and his solo stuff, and yet every song has the same chords, the same mood, the same everything - it's still a great set, but it's obvious that Doughty alone isn't what made "Lazybones" such an emotional powerhouse on record.

it was pretty funny when Dave Matthews' label had David Gray and Mike Doughty on it, like guys, you ALL have a certain shared singing style and goofy way of swinging your head around when you sing, this is starting to get weird

new Doughty album that's all covers just came out - the jam band-styled take on "Take Me Home, Country Roads" is pretty lame but there's a track where he's rapping over John Denver's Sunshine. if you like Doughty's style but are getting a little sick of him rewriting the same songs over and over this is for you.

feel like all he wants is for people not to listen to his new stuff and say it's not as good as Soul Coughing and that i'm willing to comply with that

I think that everything I need to know about Doughty was covered on his WTF episode.

I can see that, it was a little hard to listen to. Just the constant paranoia and "why is this happening to me?" gets on my nerves and leaves me glad that he never got that level of control from Soul Coughing, if there's one thing his book nails it's that he was definitely the least talented member of that group (songwriting aside)

just posted on Facebook that he's looking to "revisit" his SC work but done his way, complete with a bunch of "DO NOT TELL ME TO..." statements, this fuckin' guy, trying to have your Cake and eat it too

he's revisiting Cake songs too huh

I really want to imagine an alternate universe where Doughty wound up in Cake and John McCrea in Soul Coughing. I know "chaos theory" and all but I wonder how much really changes.

I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt w/r/t "The Book of Drugs" and his attitude of "do NOT ever mention my former (and much more popular) band to me; BUT if you MUST know you can buy 300 pages of me rambling on about it for $19.99", but if he's going to try to do Soul Coughing songs again after everything he's said, he truly is a prick

there are guys whose ex-bandmates stole their wife or screwed them out of tens of millions of dollars who don't whine year after year after year like this dude. what is the worst thing he even alleges in his book? they consider instrumental composition worthy of songwriting credit? they were mean to him on the tourbus?

Yeah, I've really been struck by the sheer amount of dick from this guy, as if what he brought, let alone melodies/lyrics, was somehow responsible for what little success the band had. SC rhythm section was awesome, sample guy inspired. Doughty ... just the dude rambling. Wouldn't have been SC without him, but his belated, obnoxious credits grab (not to mention his unreliable narrator status as a full-blown drug fiend at the time) is unseemly.

xp - a lot of it is that the band wanted full credit on everything songwriting-wise and for the money to be a 4-way split, while Doughty thought that as songwriter and singer that it should be split 5-ways, with him getting two parts. on Ruby Vroom Doughty actually did get a bigger cut, by the way. as for the rest of them, they didn't want to just be Doughty's backing band and apparently didn't think much of him as a songwriter. there's a lot of space given to individual incidents like De Gli Antoni breaking his headphones, but it's framed to make it look like this is just something he randomly did to be mean, apropos of nothing. he compares it to an abusive marriage, and he writes about it like a dude detailing every single fight he's had in his marriage for the last five years, but only the mean stuff the wife said or did, not what led up to it. he disliked Gabay because he wouldn't play the same drumbeat twice, or something. Steinburg apparently was cheap and shady in his own way. Meanwhile it seems like Doughty was barely a functional person for upwards of two years, not showing up to recording sessions, snapping at everyone, etc. But he does claim that the other guys "ruined" all of the SC records, that they weren't anything like he wanted them to be, so maybe this is what he's talking about now, doing the songs "his" way.

"his" way.

Which is to say, likely shitty.

What's up with De Gli Antoni or Gabay? Steinberg, of course, is an awesome session guy in LA who's done great work with Neil Finn, Jon Brion, Fiona Apple, etc.

my friend who's pals w/ members of the band has kept up with those guys, i remember Mark toured with David Byrne a while back and seems to keep busy, not sure what Yuval's been doing

there's a lot of space given to individual incidents like De Gli Antoni breaking his headphones

wow can't believe he survived those days, sounds like a late period black flag

story.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-to1AFvC86h8/TocWaPG01QI/AAAAAAAABT4/MXIC37oc-Mw/s400/d5kz5wicho9bdbkh.jpg

"Guess Brian won't be breaking me 'eadphones again, ay mate?"

Yeah, I've really been struck by the sheer amount of dick from this guy, as if what he brought, let alone melodies/lyrics, was somehow responsible for what little success the band had. SC rhythm section was awesome, sample guy inspired. Doughty ... just the dude rambling.

Mike's Dubious Luxury album (which I downloaded) really confirmed this for me; that's his electro/experimental album, no vocals, just a bunch of odd quirky stuff, feels like it was put out to prove that it was him, not De Gli Antoni, who was responsible for "that" side of Soul Coughing. And it's awful, just a bunch of canned drum loops and vocal samples, like something a 15-year old kid would bang out over a weekend to try to impress his friends. Like, maybe there's a reason why it's 2013 and he's still rewriting "Lazybones" over and over.

And then when you thought you could escape him

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2013/01/beyonce_lip_syncing_at_the_inauguration_musician_mike_doughty_says_she_was.html

i like how he casually mentions he was high during clinton's inauguration... we get it dude u used to do DRUGS

his memoir was original titled The Book of Clinton Administration Drugs

mmmmm BACON and DRUGS

I guess he was totally wrong about that, oops

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaojG98ESfw

Doughty and hip-hop producer Good Goose have paired up to redo some Soul Coughing songs. The first single off the new album, Circles Super Bon Bon…, is the track “The Idiot Kings.” The track “The Idiot Kings” includes Catherine Popper, of Jack White’s band on the upright bass. In a recent interview with Billboard, Doughty commented on recreating Soul Coughing music, ”When I wrote this, at age 24, I was hoping for a pop single, and it never quite turned out that way. Now, with the hip-hop producer Good Goose — who’s actually a stealth pop guy — I think I made the song what it wanted to be.”

Sounds...weird. Not bad, though, actually. If I didn't already have the Soul Coughing version imprinted on my brain I'd probably be well taken by this. The strengths are still largely the same ones as the older recording.

kind of wack/ridiculous for him to claim that these versions are "as I meant them to be, when I wrote them, in the '90s"

I think we (well, I) discussed this on another thread. "Idiot Kings" is really the only track on the album that works at all for me.

yeah this thread has been active lately: M. Doughty - Classic or Dud?

the drum machine sounds on this album are so incredibly dated and cheesy that it almost kinda does lend some fidelity to the "this is how they sounded in my head in the 90s" claim at least

oops, didn't see that - thought I had that one bookmarked!

I'm reading Mike Doughty's memoir right now. I came across it quite by accident as I was browsing my local library's list of eBooks, and didn't realize that this was a music memoir. Somehow I thought, based on the title, that it would be more about addiction than it seems to be. Anyway, I wasn't the least bit familiar with Soul Coughing before, but I played it off Spotify as I read the book. I have 2 comments on this experience:

1) Mike Doughty seems like a complete tool. I don't think I've read a memoir with a less likable narrator since I read Bob Mould's book, which seems to have the same problem of the narrator setting himself up to be the one earnest and upstanding person in the narrative, and everyone else being a complete asshole shithead fuckwad. This guy can't even bring himself to use the names of the people he was in a band with for 8 years because, apparently, that would be giving them too much dignity.

1) Soul Coughing's music... well, it doesn't really sound like anything else I can think of, so points for originality, I guess. But that doesn't mean it's good. In fact, it's quite terrible in this overly clever way that I find instantly irritating. From what I've been reading about this band, people seem to like to like to use the word "white" in describing this band. I'm not usually one to use that word pejoratively, but I instantly get what people mean by that.

I can't help but wonder if not using their names is also a convenient way to dodge the legal liability of slinging all that mud.

Well obviously I have a lot to say about the book, but for now I just really dislike how it's presented in the beginning as "I was on drugs through a lot of this and I acted like a prick sometimes, I'm not interested in making myself look good", and then he writes the whole thing in just about the snipiest, most biased way possible. It's frustrating because he seems to have an awful lot of self-awareness in general but absolutely zero when it comes to his old band. He writes about the other members as though they are not even human beings, with nary a thought given to how much it must have sucked for them to be saddled with a barely functional drug addict who apparently was regularly blowing off recording sessions.

Their music definitely isn't everyone's bag, but I think it holds together a lot better than similar 90's stuff does. I know I won't win any ILX-points for this but I feel like they're most similar to Can, in that they're a very talented group with some rather unique skills that just seemed to be made for each other (funny how Doughty apparently was the only one who didn't hear it). Also like Can I don't feel any of these guys have done anything remotely as good outside of the group (I admit I haven't listened to all the famous Czukay albums, but in general I've learned to stay away from Can solo albums). I disagree with the "whiteness" complaint...I see where it's coming from but the whole idea that SC was like a white hip-hop band is kind of absurd. They took in a ton of different influences and as far as I can see Doughty really only tries to rap on parts of a couple of tracks, namely "True Dreams of Wichita" and "Moon Sammy".

I can't help but wonder if not using their names is also a convenient way to dodge the legal liability of slinging all that mud.

Surely libel law doesn't simply rest on the person using someone's name explicitly, does it?

i'm just trying to figure out why someone who's never listened to soul coughing's memoir would read dude's book?

i mean music. haha.

because it is called A Book of Drugs.

I did explain that above.

I can't help but wonder if not using their names is also a convenient way to dodge the legal liability of slinging all that mud.

Surely libel law doesn't simply rest on the person using someone's name explicitly, does it?

― Poliopolice, Monday, January 27, 2014 1:30 PM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i dunno, can you imagine anyone winning a libel case in which no names were used (or only pseudonyms were used)? nobody's ever gotten sued over a thinly veiled 'blind item,' have they?

I don't think I've read a memoir with a less likable narrator since I read Bob Mould's book, which seems to have the same problem of the narrator setting himself up to be the one earnest and upstanding person in the narrative, and everyone else being a complete asshole shithead fuckwad.

you just nailed why the book is awesome!

one of the best things about Motley Crue's The Dirt is every band member gets to share their version of events and you get to choose your own adventure with who to believe. wish more tell-alls took that approach.

the book probably reads a lot better to someone who thought Soul Coughing was too unfocused and wild but does dig Doughty's solo work. as it is it's kind of maddening to hear him go on and on about how much better SC's music *could* have been, especially now when we can hear the results of him trying to re-do all those songs

you just nailed why the book is awesome!

did you like the Mould book? I found it incredibly unpleasant to read. I could see how, in theory, someone's curmudgeonly megalomania might be amusing, but in practice I have not yet found this to be the case.

Both Mould and Doughty's memoirs made me appreciate Dean Wareham choosing to end his far superior one with the break-up of Luna, rather than throw in another anticlimactic chapter or two about how he's spent his time since.

He correctly deduced that no one cares.

well this book is supposed to be about his struggle with drugs, in which case I think it ends at an appropriate point

did you like the Mould book? I found it incredibly unpleasant to read. I could see how, in theory, someone's curmudgeonly megalomania might be amusing, but in practice I have not yet found this to be the case.

― Poliopolice, Tuesday, January 28, 2014 11:51 AM (59 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I did like it, yes! Curmudgeon bios (see also Al Jourgansen) are way more sincere than, like, "Thanks to everyone who helped me on my way" for 300 pages

the best part of mould's book was the chapter about his time w/ WCW and roiding out and shit

I did like it, yes! Curmudgeon bios (see also Al Jourgansen) are way more sincere than, like, "Thanks to everyone who helped me on my way" for 300 pages

Well, yeah, but I don't see why it has to be at one extreme or the other. Real people who aren't mentally ill tend to be somewhere in the middle.

Despite the wrongness I thought Doughty's book was an interesting read, the dickishness felt more like a case of 'whatever you think of me after reading this it pales compared to how I feel about myself, so let's just cut to the chase'

I definitely didn't see him trying to be the "one earnest and upstanding person in the narrative", he comes across as a prick throughout most of it. It's the way he phrases things in hindsight that's frustrating, there's no moment of clarity like "wow I hated pretty much everyone I came into contact with for nearly a decade, maybe some of this is on me"

Maybe he doesn't make himself the earnest, upstanding guy in all scenarios, but it seems like he does for every situation involving his band.

Consider the line from Justified: "You run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. You run into assholes all day, you’re the asshole.”

xp well he is pretty adament as to what the music *should've* sounded like and for that matter I guess it's all a matter of taste. like he literally seems to not understand what any of the other members were doing for the band and to this day feels like they only held him back. the section where he rags on Yuval because he wouldn't play the drumbeat he wanted is particularly odd considering how lifeless all of Doughty's more dance-oriented material is and how incredible Gabay's drumming was on all 3 SC albums.

thought this revive would be about this: http://pitchfork.com/news/53748-elliott-smith-goes-edm-as-mike-doughty-shares-unreleased-collaborations/

Yeah, that...huh.

DARE YOU TO LISTEN TO IT

(i'm not gonna)

Oh fuck no, you fall on that grenade.

You know what probably sounds great? A capella Elliott Smith demos. You know what probably sounds horrible? This dude adding beats at shit.

it's funny, he even manages to delete Soul Coughing from the narrative of the Elliott Smith story -- there's a whole section of his El Oso recording diary about how ES came into the studio where they were making the album and used Tchad Blake's binaural mic. Mark De Gli Antoni used the same vocal track as "Burn" for "They Wave" on his solo album, it's a weird track but not quite so awkward as the Doughty productions.

Here you go!

https://soundcloud.com/hellouul

I actually gave the Dubious Luxury album a full spin so I fully expected this to be terrible, but whoa

Thought I was pretty much done with this guy but I did like the covers disc enough to pledge for his new album with a live disc of SC tunes. Didn't expect much but it's actually quite good!!

The live Soul Coughing disc is obviously not up to the originals, but most of the issues with the "re-imagined" disc are gone...bass is much louder, drummer is a live human, songs are more energetic and not as click-tracky. There's a really awful "Super Bon Bon" remix but I thought most of the rest worked out okay, it's way better than the disc he put out last year of these songs.

New album is quite interesting - unlike any other disc in his catalogue, half of it is straight up hip-hop with plenty of guest singers, the rest is also upbeat and weird. I feel like he gave up the reigns with respect to the production and arrangements a bit, instead focusing on the songwriting and the lyrical parts, and as a result the mix sounds a lot better than any of his albums that aren't primarily acoustic guitar. Some bits are super irritating but several of the tunes strike me as among his very best, just way more overall fun than his other albums. Like I always thought Doughty worked well in a hip-hop/electronic context so long as Doughty himself isn't in charge of the hip-hop/electronic elements. I think that proves true here.

very very 1998 graphic design

https://http2.mlstatic.com/cd-soul-coughing-el-oso-100-original-D_NQ_NP_15662-MCO20106909867_062014-F.jpg

whoa otm

I just assumed this revive would be about Doughty's Truu Stowray podcast with Dave Holmes where they talk a little bit about the first season of The Real World amid recollections of the early 90s in general.

I was worried the bump was bad news about Doughty.

guess he doesn't hate the old stuff anymore

https://www.jambase.com/article/mike-doughty-ruby-vroom-25th-anniversary-tour

kinda torn about whether or not I wanna go see this

just found out that he's playing here tonight and am having similar reservations because a) i wanna preserve the memories of the insane sold-out shows at first ave (four nights in a row!) b) it might just be straight up snooze-y and c) i'm really tired and old!!!!

go see Doughty!

well he's doing the straight play-through of ruby vroom, with a cellist bassist and guitar player, and while that has the benefit of being familiar as well as probably only an hour long, i DID almost fall asleep on the drive home today because i only got 2-3hrs last night and even the most optimistic scenario is that he's done by 1030

16yo me is very torn about this

dunno if it was commented on in other threads (by eg jjjusten or djp) but soul coughing enjoyed unusual popularity for a band of their stature at our small-ish town rural mn high school. and even wilder popularity in the twin cities in general. largely (almost entirely) due to a short-lived independent radio station, rev105, but it was enough for them to consistently sell out shows (as noted above)

gbx I always heard that. There's a full First Ave show of theirs on youtube thats just nuts, you can really tell that they had a connection there.

I was a huge fan of SC in the day and followed solo Doughty for a period, but his bizarre delusional self-aggrandizing assholishness re:Soul Coughing in the leadup to his book and afterward turned me off to the point where its honestly hard for me to hear the old SC stuff without getting annoyed and bummed out. I once saw him go off at a reading/acoustic performance about how Yuval was one of the worst drummers he'd ever seen and how Doughty had to coach him through every show, and a crowd of mostly younger fans eagerly laughing at all his jokes about how dumb and talentless the other members were, just really gross obnoxious stuff. Sad to say it but the whole thing just left such a sour taste in my mouth that hearing "Screenwriter's Blues" or "Mr. Bitterness" now just reminds me of what a fucking hateful dick he acted like.

And seeing him do the covers album and now the nostalgia tour thing after tweeting things at fans like "DONT BOTHER ME WITH SOUL COUGHING SHIT" for years is just... no thanks.

a weird drama girl who was my first friend in high school loved ruby vroom - this was utah. the end.

I checked out after el oso and never really thought of them again unless as a nostalgic walk, never really knew about all the drama/fallout

nb I am not going to the show. green chile stew and a movie instead 😎

His comments re: the other members' abilities makes a bit more sense when you listen to his solo stuff. If you can imagine Doughty's solo career coming first, you'd never see him joining a band like Soul Coughing in a million years. It's especially evident if you hear his SC covers album, which in his words was Soul Coughing as he always pictured it, where Steinberg was turned way down in the mix, De Gli Antoni was stuck with a $20 Casio, and Gabay was actually just a drum machine. It's really quite bad and there's no chance in hell his version of the band would've gotten a contract, but it does reveal Doughty's musical tastes and inclinations, and how as square they really are. I hate to say this but it seems evident that the more 'interesting' side of the man that garnered him fame was perhaps brought on by all the drugs he took. When he rags on the other band members for *not being able to play* it really makes you wonder about the other side of the story - three great musicians being saddled with a marginally talented guitar player who wrote the same four songs over and over again and (by his own admission) showed up hours late for recording sessions and rehearsals.

that said, I do like a chunk of his solo career, and as bad as that SC covers disc was, he did another one a year later that was actually fairly good. not as good as the originals but a lot groovier and more energetic than his first attempt. I was kinda interested in this show b/c Ruby Vroom was such a big deal for me, but I don't exactly regret missing it. I'll probably pick up the inevitable live recording though.

interesting

https://www.stereogum.com/2096276/mike-doughty-soul-coughing-ghost-of-vroom-2-interview/franchises/interview/tracking-down/

STEREOGUM: So how did Ghost Of Vroom — the band, that is — actually come together?

DOUGHTY: The short version of the story is, I started writing Soul Coughing music again. I called up Soul Coughing and said, “Do you want to do this?” I got back a hot plate of crazy.

wonder if writing an entire book trashing those guys has anything to do with it

Yeah, he always seemed like a disingenuous asshole who took too many drugs and tried to take credit from these absolutely crazy talented dudes he was playing with. It takes some Soul Cojones to call them up again for a cash-in, when it seems like he needs/wants them more than they want him.

So weird how he wound up in a band where literally everyone else was the problem. So weird!

Imagine crowdfunding an album of re-recorded Soul Coughing songs where all the music is replaced by metronome drum beats from garageband and dinky one-finger keyboard lines, giving a bunch of interviews saying this is how you always wanted those songs to sound, and then calling those guys up later and saying "hey do you want to record some parts for my new album?" Hilarious.

lol yeah I trusted the guy enough to think that re-recorded album would at least provide an interesting take on the stuff and spent most of the time wondering if it was some kind of elaborate joke - when laid bare like that it's incredibly obvious that the dude just wrote the same 2-3 songs over and over again

funnily enough i've been on an SC kick this week for the first time in years. digging in on headphones, El Oso in particular sounded amazingly more interesting and rich than i gave it credit for. love the sound this group of people came up with. also love doughty's lyrics/delivery but it's so much an ingredient in that mix.

It's kind of (along with Latin Playboys) the ideal outlet for Mitchell Froom and Tchad Blake.

yea I re-listened to all three a couple months ago, think they've all held up quite well. maybe the boosted bass dates it a little - the CDs sound like they're optimized for tiny cars with subwoofers - but they're still quite good. even though Doughty didn't get along with the other guys I think it was sort of a perfect pairing - had the songs been more complex & varied I don't think they would've been able to pull off the crazy sound they did. I do hear the Beastie Boys connection, both groups just seemed to have a great ear for sound

anyway here's a track from his new band. I think it's okay, definitely better he's doing this than trying to re-write his old Soul Coughing songs for the 5th time. It's a lot closer to that sound than the covers album he did, but like a lot of MD's solo stuff you can kinda hear him going "okay lets do something crazy! wait no turn that part down, it's in the way!" Soul Coughing never did that which is why their stuff sounded so cool

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vMxfSVDh14

full length LP is out. its pretty nice, better than most of Doughty's solo stuff. a million miles ahead of the SC covers album he did, though I imagine getting Mario Caldato (of Beastie Boys fame) to produce & mix it made a big difference.

Doughty's more recent book (his second memoir) is pretty outstanding.

Funny (relative) timing, I just came here to say the same thing.

I have a complicated fan relationship with this guy. I did like (but did not obsesses) over Soul Coughing. I interviewed Doughty once not too long after the breakup, and I'm pretty sure he was just stringing me along with half-truths about what went down. Of course, turns out he was apparently diving head first into drugs and general hard living, so that explains some of it, but even then, reading his first book, "Book of Drugs," didn't exactly clarify anything. The bad blood between him and the other Soul Coughing guys is huge, so it's hard to know the truth. He has nothing but bad things to say about them and their behavior, but when he tries to claim credit for Soul Coughing, I take that with a grain of salt, especially since the guy did not seem to be in good enough shape to steward a band; he was a drug addict, flake and general fuck-up with undiagnosed mental health issues, and given that a lot of the book is about him pursuing a life of totally selfish, hedonistic waste and self-destructive sex n drugs indulgence, who knows what is true or not, or how much he can be trusted. Or whether it matters or not, really; he doesn't come off particularly well, but that probably ultimately works in the first book's favor. It's not bad, and in its defense, iirc he basically starts by saying if you've read any sex and drug addict memoir you already know what you're going to get.

The second book, "I Die Each Time I Hear The Sound," which is better, I think further complicates my feelings about the dude. It's told in a much more fragmented style, very self-aware and even more rife with insecurity, a tell-all in the truest sense in that it sometimes teeters on the brink of too much, however brief each fragment may be. And yet, there are enough occasional allusions to fabulism or compressed anecdotes or shaky memories (even the first book included accusations that he was making up his drug addiction or mental illness), that it did sometimes make me wonder if everything in the book was on the up and up. Not that I have any real reason to believe any of it is made up at all, which is part of its appeal. It's almost like this compressed epic time-bending dream that he scribbled down when he woke up and later polished and refined into excellent prose, which is maybe why it works. Sometimes it's poetic and affecting, sometimes even beautiful, often it's funny, more often it's melancholy, but mostly it all kind of spills out in such a relentlessly detail-strewn "did this really happen?" way that I've got to assume it really does capture the surprises and craziness and unexpected turns of his strange career and life. I especially love how it repeatedly shows how our experiences, big and small (in particular through hearing music, but not just that), can instantly change the way we see the world around us, forever. It's something we don't always think about.

that was my main problem with the first book as well, he paints himself as such a terrible and unreliable bandmate but can't seem to figure out why the others in the group had this resentment towards him. it's really easy to see things from the other side - during the El Oso sessions he mentions waking up late and taking 2 hours just to shamble to the ATM so he can buy enough heroin to get through the day, meaning he would show up to the studio hours late or just not at all. now imagine having your career tied to this guy, especially being the one (Mark?) who had a newborn at the time. now to his credit he does say many times in the book he's just recounting his own memory and it shouldn't be accepted as fact, and I guess expecting the world to accept your bullshit while simultaneously believing you deserve much more is a pretty human thing. and there are some pretty revealing and vulnerable passages in there. I've read a lot of addiction memoirs but I think this is the first where the author doesn't have any sort of come to Jesus moment, instead he just kicks the habit because the drugs weren't working for him anymore. kinda rare to hear someone just admit it like that.

I've started in on the second book and you're right it's much better so far. I do really dig how it's just kind of a series of disparate and unrelated memories, since that's basically how our brains process our own lives. there's no real narrative to it but I think there's a lot of honestly in that somehow. I really don't think he's making things up, in fact a lot of what I've read so far (and some of his first book) revolves around him trying to reconcile the fact that in reconnecting with all these people from his past he realizes that he remembers a totally different series of events than they do. that's something I've been feeling a lot lately, especially now that I've been on Facebook a while, and sometimes a picture of you from 12 years ago will pop up on someone else's feed, some event or party you completely forgot going to, but someone else has a very vivid memory of something you did there.

I picked up the Lust in Phase RSD vinyl release recently, amazingly it was only $19.99 for a double LP. I still dig the music but was kind of stunned how much I'd associated it with certain people in my life, many of whom I just don't see anymore. reminds me a lot of the person I used to be and in that sense I actually kinda get why Doughty feels this sort of embarrassment and anxiety whenever he hears those recordings. I still think he's nuts to say the re-recorded stuff he did is anywhere near the quality of those albums but if it lets him hear it without all the baggage, I guess that's cool. At least the Ghost of Vroom stuff is good.

something seems to be up??

https://www.soulcoughingband.com/

it's a tour! never thought I'd see the day, happy those guys worked it out.

yeah you'd think that bridge would be burned forever but if you read between the lines of what Doughty's been saying and doing over the last decade-plus you can tell he's been itching to give it another go. kind of amusing that they will (presumably) be playing the arrangements of these tunes which Doughty himself said were awful. wonder if they're gonna do any of the "Ghost of Vroom" stuff, I think Soul Coughing would sound quite good on that

Yeah I was under the impression the other guys couldn't stand him but I guess plenty of other touring bands have that dynamic so

kind of amusing that they will (presumably) be playing the arrangements of these tunes which Doughty himself said were awful

Lol yeah i’m curious if the merch table will have copies of the book where Doughty says they were all terrible musicians and he had to teach them everything they knew. Truly flabbergasting that they can get beyond that stuff to make this happen, I’m utterly floored

especially since he didn't just go scorched earth on the other band members but also the fans and the music itself, that said he does kinda admit that book was mostly him trying to exorcise some personal demons, in fact one of the first things he says in it is "this is just how I remember it, I'm sure other accounts will be different and likely closer to the truth"

Aaaaaaaand the 9:30 show sold out before I could get a ticket.

Minneapolis show had three phases of ticket sales, all sold in like a minute, show was moved from 1,500 capacity club to a 2,300 capacity theater and then those extra tickets sold out in a minute, secondary market going from GA at 125 to close to 600

what on earth is going on

i mean i respect frogbs' love for him (*ish) but doughty is a 54yo guy who doesn't seem to have put out anything in years

who are these people snapping up tickets to see super bon bon performed live

I will say Minneapolis was always a strangely huge market for Soul Coughing, they used to say like 30% of their records sold were in the Twin Cities area

REV105, so much to answer for

(jk, it was good)

I know I'm nostalgic for my favorite 90s bands (the Afghan Whigs came through DC last weekend), and I and plenty of my peers are able to spend $45 + Ticketmaster fees to see our favorites again. I can't blame these bands for making a cash grab in the current market.

what's the best use of "Super Bon Bon" in a TV series?

Homicide: Life On The Street
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rckgqd-RcN0

The Last Dance
(scene not on YouTube but it's on Netflix, episode 8)

Reacher
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fagLjawRXM

honestly I'm surprised by it too, I mean sure they were great but they weren't exactly huge and neither of their big hits are cultural touchstones anymore the way a lot of 90s stuff is. but I dunno there are a lot of 40-somethings out there for whom this band really did mean a lot back in the day so why not? I mean Cake still sells a ton of tickets and they've only made one album since 2004 (which was not particularly good), so who knows. at least Doughty has been fairly active - yes his last solo album was in 2016 but he has done two albums and an EP under the "Ghost of Vroom" name since, and even though these do not appear to have sold well at all I think they're pretty good

[

REV105, so much to answer for

(jk, it was good)

I don't like Bon Bon but know every word on the first LP. Snagged tickets for Chicago and am looking forward to it. Read the first bio which was very sour and dour as mentioned, haven't read the second yet.

I definitely know folks for whom the Soul Coughing fan mailing list was a really important community, and they're planning a reunion for the shows etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGvxrVObKbY

Sounds less than enthusiastic about reaching that first chorus

Or any part of the song at all imo. Something really empty and momentum-free about the mix. But some of that might be down to bands always sounding horrible on talk show experiences.

I saw a few videos from this tour and couldn’t help but notice Doughty’s weird low-affect and apparent lack of enthusiasm, singing standing still, arms at sides… like, wtf, wasn’t this whole thing your idea in the first place dude, why be pissy?

Then I was googling around I found an interview with him on some random therapy podcast from a couple months ago where he talks about being hospitalized multiple times in the last year for depression & suicidal ideation, really harrowing stuff. He had that kind of careful, deliberate, shellshocked vibe of someone coming through the other side of something like that, putting their identity back together bit by bit, and I guess that was part of the inspiration for doing the reunion. It was really sad but also put the whole thing in a context, like he’s not so much being a brat but more just in a post-breakdown state of trying to keep it together. Definitely cast things in a different light for me re:him & the band.

came here to complain about Doughty's lack of energy onstage Saturday night and now I feel like a dick

noticed the same thing watching those clips, kind of a bummer since the way Doughty flips the switch is a big component of what makes the band work, especially on Super Bon Bon

the band still seems really tight though. surprised to see Steinberg come out looking like Rick Rubin

yeah its sort of an awkward situation to be in as a fan (although obviously happy that he's doing ok & getting help). lukas, how was the show otherwise, was it a weird vibe or still fun?

At least he's not doing that thing with his hands anymore

The Chicago show was superb. No crowd interaction and not a lot of movement but holy cow they are as tight as any 4-piece I have ever seen. Sound was stellar, crowd roar after every song, every detail of every song spot on. Setlist was ideal for me (lots of Vroom and few other standouts). I am very grateful to them for sewing things up and coming out for us one more time regardless of what happened in the past.

Did I mention they sounded like a million bucks? Don't know how much they rehearsed but it was near flawless from my vantage.

how was Doughty? would love it if he got more amped as the tour went on

yeah its sort of an awkward situation to be in as a fan (although obviously happy that he's doing ok & getting help). lukas, how was the show otherwise, was it a weird vibe or still fun?

other than that it was awesome. it helps that they don't really have any bad songs, and the rhythm section hits, and De Gli Antoni does his thing, which no one else does ...

Last show of the tour.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_QXfYuG_Bo

still bummed I couldn't make the Chicago show but I listened to the live album and yeah, they still sound super tight. alas idk if I ever have the need to listen again, they sound *so much* like the studio versions, which I feel like wasn't really the case on those 96-99 bootlegs that came out

they're currently doing another run of shows throughout all of April, so I guess things are going well. who knows what that means for the future, would be awesome if they recorded again or at least started retooling some of the tunes. I mean they don't exactly have a deep catalogue, idk how many tours they can really get out of this

Saw them in Birmingham, AL last night and it killed. I'm a very casual fan but was interested to see how they would pull it off live. Just incredible. Perfect mix, steallar drumming, and Mike seemed moved by all the enthusiasm. One of the best shows I've seen all year.

the new live album recorded last year sounds pretty good. it's probably partly in my mind because i know the baggage but i feel like it doesn't have the vibe that their 90s shows had, like Doughty eventually gets a rapport going with the audience but never with the rest of the band. but it's fine, nice to hear that Yuval is still an absolutely amazing drummer.

my buddy who's close to the band got access to a treasure trove of studio outtakes that were never released or leaked and there's a whole lost album or two of great soul coughing songs out there. not really clear if the band or any label will care enough to release that stuff, though, hopefully i can hear some of this stuff next time i hang out with him.

I mean they like money enough to tour ...

I do wonder how much exactly that factored into the decision to do this, I mean Doughty has been pretty open about how much of a struggle it can be to make ends meet as a touring musician, and after Haughty Melodic I don't think any of his solo records have sold particularly well. I mean I'm sure there's a part of him that really does want to reconcile with the past but lets face it, this is the thing people will pay for.

After reading that book, I would wager the tour was 100% based on money.

love this mark richardson p4k sunday review of ruby vroom, especially all of the context around gen x and spoken word (poetry slams, beat revival, etc.):
https://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/soul-coughing-ruby-vroom/

I look forward to reading that. How often does Mark still write for Pitchfork?

Yeah, that ruled. I posted this to Twitter bcuz ILX wasn't poppin off.

I loved so much "funky white boy" music in high school (Soul Coughing, eels, Fun Lovin Criminals, G Love, 311, Sugar Ray, Sublime) but only Beck & JSBX managed to make the journey with me to adulthood. Do I need 2 revisit Ruby Vroom?

At the least it sounds pretty cool! For some reason I thought it was another Mitchell Froom/Tchad Blake joint, but it's just Blake on this one.

well it's named after froom's daughter at any rate

I loved so much "funky white boy" music in high school (Soul Coughing, eels, Fun Lovin Criminals, G Love, 311, Sugar Ray, Sublime)

lol this reminds me of long-ago ilm poster nickalicious

boy i disliked most of whiney’s similars at the time— a lot— tho i get the grouping. soul coughing seemed very much more original to me. like people who’d been locked in a terrible prison/laboratory that dumped american postwar cultural history onto them, and into them, until finally they corroded and burst and oozed out this magnificent rhythmic living thing. i doubt i ever even heard their other stuff. the first felt complete to me as a statement. life in a pressure cooker of 20th century american media got you trapped just— there.

I still miss nickalicious. Revisited Fun Loving Criminals (as looking for something to play with my 8yo son - didn’t realise there were so many explicits in their songs). Pretty cheesy, all revolving around a 15 yo’s idea of cool but the music and production still sound very good

that richardson piece is solid, thanks for sharing!

(i do think he sells the latter two albums a little short, but that's his prerogative, and makes sense if what drew you in was the very specific fusion revealed on Ruby Vroom.)

Yeah I really liked that piece too. It does a great job of outlining what I loved about them.

fwiw I don’t think of them with “funky white boy music” exactly, I more hear the oddball eclecticism of Cake and Cibo Matto and Money Mark.

Yeah, I never thought of them like those others. They were just a weird mishmash of stuff.

Cake is funky white boy music too tbh

Cake were always the closest comparison to me, in that both bands were just a collection of dudes with a sound built around their talents, plus I think Doughty has way more in common with John McCrea than Nick Hexum or Mark McGrath. main difference is Cake did streamline their sound after a couple of albums whereas Soul Coughing made an effort to get even further out there, maybe because Doughty never really had control of the band - in his book he expresses a lot of frustration with the other guys not playing the way he wants them to, especially Gabay who either didn't understand what Doughty was telling him or just didn't care. either way it's a good thing he didn't listen!

He's such a dick in his (first) book. One of those jerks that thinks they're always right, and no one listens to them, and he is the brains, and those other guys can't play, he wrote all the songs, etc. And sure, he was on hard drugs the entire time, but he still knew best. Then he goes solo and there's not much going on there so he reunites the band because they are actually good at all the things he thought he was the best at.

Anyway, a big difference between Soul Coughing and Cake and a lot of those other acts is that SC and Cake are a bunch of dorks/nerds/dweebs, and those other bands are, like, beach-bros. Soul Coughing would have to be coaxed into taking off their shirts, Sugar Way or Sublime probably had to be tricked into putting shirts on.

fwiw I don’t think of them with “funky white boy music” exactly, I more hear the oddball eclecticism of Cake and Cibo Matto and Money Mark.

Yeah, this is where they sit for me, too. Ruby Vroom, Odelay, and Viva La Woman were all landmark albums for me in high school, with a similar blend of eclectic samples and dadaist lyrics.

I don't think Fun Lovin' Criminals or eels would take off their shirts. You guys are splitting hairs to justify liking funky white boy music. It's OK if you do!

To be fair, the only thing I know about Fun Lovin' Criminals is that I sold a lot of their promo CDs without listening to them.

311, beach-bros from the famous beaches of Omaha, Nebraska

Beach bros in spirit!

White boy funk descended from Red Hot Chili Peppers, Ruby Vroom and Odelay influenced more by sample-heavy stuff like Paul’s Boutique is how I break it down.

I just relistened to Ruby Vroom for probably the first time this century. It’s never really funky. It’s surrealist sound collage with good beats.

Yeah, to put it through a Whiney filter, think of Faith No More. Do they share some elements in common with Korn or Limp Bizkit? Sure. Is that where I would slot them? Nope. And it's sure not how the band thinks of itself.

I never said they were a funk band, I said they were "funky white boy music," which describes lots of '90s alternative bands even if they kept their shirts on

Lol I’m bowing out of this, I’m starting to feel like I’m Geir with his set in stone opinions as facts. Funk on, funkateers!

You guys are splitting hairs to justify liking funky white boy music. It's OK if you do!

what if we like both groups of music being discussed but want to make distinctions within that. is that ok

He's such a dick in his (first) book. One of those jerks that thinks they're always right, and no one listens to them, and he is the brains, and those other guys can't play, he wrote all the songs, etc. And sure, he was on hard drugs the entire time, but he still knew best.

look I'll give him some credit here, he did put his money where his mouth was on this by recording his own versions of Soul Coughing songs around the time the book was written. unfortunately they were awful, seemingly designed specifically for that cross section of bands who like Doughty's solo material but can't stand Soul Coughing, a cross section which I think may be limited to Doughty himself.

Steinberg once claimed that Doughty had some form of aphasia that made him unable to hear what anyone else was doing. or maybe he's just a dick who thinks he's the only one who can come up with anything good. fwiw I think he's kind of gotten over that mental block with his second disc of SC covers and the "Ghost of Vroom" stuff, which I think is pretty decent

I liked Ruby Vroom so sue me

the impersonations he does of his bandmates in his book are so savage

Half an hour late, the bass player and the drummer arrived with bagels and coffee. I stood there with my guitar plugged in, gawking at them, as they joked and ate their breakfasts.

Can we play? My money’s running out, I said.

They laughed at me. A half hour later, they had finished their bagels.

“Yo, G,” said the drummer, who spoke a thickly Hebrew accented, broken Brooklynish, “it is time to pump. It is time that we must pump now.”
I was floored from the jump. I had tried to explain to other rhythm sections how to do the grooves I wanted. With these two, it was just there. That huge sound.

I started one tune by explaining I wanted the rhythm to be something like James Brown’s “Funky Drummer.”

“Yo, G,” said the drummer, “nobody want to play that there beat. Everybody done that beat already.”

We blasted through a bunch of songs in an hour. I was half elated, half panicked. Suddenly the sampler player walked in.
Where’s your sampler? I said.

“I brought this,” he said. He held up a video camera. “I’m going to record audio and practice to it later.”

To promote a gig, I’d call 200 people; basically, everybody I’d ever met in New York. I sat down at 3 PM, with a notebook with names and numbers anarchically scribbled in it, and made calls until 11. Every third person asked to be on the guest list.

Seventeen people came. One rehearsal wasn’t enough to really know the tunes, so transitions were sketchy, but I was dumbstruck. The bass player and the drummer seemed not to give a fuck that I was standing there, but they filled the room with an extraordinary rumble.

The sampler player didn’t start playing until about the last verse of each tune; it took him that long to load his hard drive. He clearly hadn’t listened to his videotape, but I loved his sounds. Peals from space and spectral voices.

There wasn’t much, but I divided the money four ways.

“Yo, G,” said the drummer. “This is not right. This isn’t enough. You pay for my cab. That’s how it’s done, G.”

After paying for cabs, I had lost the precious (for me) sum of $25. But I was sold: if I could hold on to them, this was my band.

Doughty is the epitome of an unreliable narrator. Constantly fucked up, and constantly fucking up, but somehow able to reconstruct all these events from memory. But the proof is how it all played out. He breaks up "his" band, tries to go solo for a while, then eventually realizes he needs those other guys and/or money.

would be interesting to hear the other band members' accounts of working with Doughty, his book comes across like a kid detailing all the ways someone was mean to him at school where you just know there's another side to the story. actually it kind of comes across like when Kevin Smith was talking about how rude Bruce Willis was when he directed a movie he was in and when asked about it Bruce Willis was like "I couldn't believe how bad he was at his job, of course I was frustrated with him". given what some of Mike's solo stuff sounds like I can only imagine what a drugged out and much less experienced Doughty was telling these guys

Do I need 2 revisit Ruby Vroom?

yes, I think it's SC's best album and it's def better than the other stuff you mentioned.

listenin to it now and yeah it definitely holds up, I'd almost forgotten how well it evokes this sort of urban chaos, like a combo of crazy talented street musicians all trying to get your attention at the same time. its also arty in a way that appeals to me, just doin' stuff for the sake of it. I like the idea that you don't have to write around real world shit, it can be just fragments of thought that appeal to a different part of the brain

album does feel kinda frontloaded to me, album might work better if you cut out the stuff from Supra Genius to Down to This, granted City of Motors really did grow on me

City of Motors not my fave, but album kinda needs it - or at least, I like that they tried to do that kind of a song. Feels very much like an "indie neo-noir" of the same period, if not an especially compelling one. But yeah... "Supra Genius" I'd gladly drop, and maybe "Uh, Zoom, Zip," both on the "done better elsewhere on this album" principle.

"urban chaos" otm, its always been a very New York album to me, in a way that the other two arent

Doughtys books has always been a nonstarter for me bc I remember the days of the old Soul Coughing website where he would post little essays about each song, a huge percentage of which were variations of "the band worked up this finished instrumental track and presented me with it, and i improvised some nonsense phrases in about 5 minutes to sing overtop of it." which isnt to diminish his contributions on those tracks, but its an awful long way to go from that to "i am the sole author of every soul coughing song and these guys couldnt tie their shoes without me."

Screenwriter’s Blues is my pick from the album. kinda apocalyptic. or an apotheosis of their schtick, whichever

in the book he does talk about his bandmates chiding him for writing the same song over and over, and if you hear his covers album it's pretty apparent this is basically true. there's a certain chord progression he uses a bunch, even on his solo albums. but that was what made SC tick, they were able to do so much with relatively simple tunes, again I think they were sorta similar to Can in that way

The second book was pretty good, iirc. First one was infuriating and dumb, down there with the Moby memoir.

Screenwriter's Blues is an amazing recording, apocalyptic for sure, and a great example of how much the samples and rhythm section are doing to add undefinable atmosphere, tone, etc. The way the second and third layers of samples come in on the chorus to add all this mania - that's NOT there in the song "on paper" but it totally makes it as a listening experience. And if it has a fault, it's as a composition - I always think of the climax, but it could maybe use an actual "ending."

"Never Gonna Come Back Down" by BT came on shuffle today, pretty amazing piece of late 90s ephemera there, BT's vocal treatments are genuinely hilarious. of course I thought this was the coolest song I ever heard in my life when I was 13

I've always liked it. It's silly cheese, and you have to buy into Doughty as a Cool Guy able to pull off "king stinger, the dope beat slinger, sucka DJs they get stopped by a single finger," but I basically can. I was 18 at the time, and have a distinct memory of hearing it on the radio, while driving home from hanging out with a girl I had a crush on... It was my first experience of how driving could feel good with a song there to pump you up. I wonder what it's status would be, had Gone In 60 Seconds had become what The Fast and the Furious became.

I completely forgot Doughty put out a 3rd Ghost of Vroom album (well, one was an EP) a few years ago...listening now and it's actually pretty good? First Doughty album since Skittish where I don't feel I have to talk myself into it. I haven't been totally convinced by any of his post-SC work but this one actually has a deserved swagger to it, idk what to say other than he's just got a lot better at what he's been trying to do for the last 15 years or so