Beastie Boys vs. Clint Black FITE

analyze this

Draft the Beasties!

OH MAN i hate them SO much.

IT MIGHT BE A SMART BOMB
THEY FIND STUPID PEOPLE TOO
IF YOU STAND WITH THE LIKES OF SADDAM
ONE JUST MIGHT FIND YOU

thunderous applause

!!!

Shakey = otm

Beastie Boys should just shut up about EVERYTHING. the only thing worse than their lyrics back in the day are their lyrics after they became 'enlightened' enough to become granola-munching buddhists and marry famous feminists. Assholes.

OH MAN i hate them SO much.

Beastie Boys should just shut up about EVERYTHING. the only thing worse than their lyrics back in the day are their lyrics after they became 'enlightened' enough to become granola-munching buddhists and marry famous feminists. Assholes.

Damn, did Yauch run over your dog when you were a kid or something? Wow.

Which people where? Try and honestly answer this question without making any "class distinctions".

"while the Beastie Boys cut mirrors other's thoughts in sentiment only"

Their lyrics read like half the signs at the antiwar protests (joke lines included). I think the distinction you're drawing is false and is predicated on some foolish projection of Black being a "man of the people" which he most definitely is not. He's a rich redneck asshole.

Umm... I still haven't given any class distinctions, Shakes. I don't get the question, "Which people where?" but I'm assuming you are asking me who this song might speak to. My family. My friends who are against the war. Comments I see on message boards. The pro-war ideas that I hear from these people ("these people" = peers, family, friends) are close to Black's song, the first verse in particular.

"Their lyrics read like half the signs at the antiwar protests (joke lines included). I think the distinction you're drawing is false and is predicated on some foolish projection of Black being a "man of the people" which he most definitely is not. He's a rich redneck asshole."

Shakes, your entire basis for these posts seems to be: a) you are anti-war (guess what? so am I!) and b) you dislike Clint Black as a person ("He's a rich redneck asshole"), not on the song itself.

Wrong. Note that I don't think the Beasties' song is good either.

"b) you dislike Clint Black as a person ("He's a rich redneck asshole"), not on the song itself."

Well, it's no mystery that he's rich. However, the song and the sentiments expressed - xenophobia, vaguely repressed violent homoeroticism, parotting of right-wing slogans, self-righteous expressions of strength - lead me to believe that he's a redneck asshole. Song sentiments = redneck asshole sentiments. I do not know Clint Black personally.

That you somehow find one set of lyrics more "authentic" than the other is beyond me.

1) I grew up in a place where hip hop was the law of the land. The earliest memories I have are my buddy Nasa and I bagging groceries all day so we could get $8 each and walk to the Wiz (a mile and a half away) to get the new K Solo album. If we were lucky, we'd have some change left over to have luch, which was usally a 5th Avenue bar or a Twix. Hip hop, to me, was everything. So those who mocked, misappropriated, or just plain blemished it's reputation as a culture / axis, got the gas face.

2) Beginning in high school, I walked the same path as I'm sure many of you have: punk - hardcore - emo - indie rock - psych / 'old' records - krautrock - noise - free jazz - dub - techno - etc etc etc -Black Flag to Vladislav Delay in ten steps. I discovered thru jobs at record stores, radio stations, etc. I read extensively, listened to conversations, and learned so much about music and it's history. All the great things I couldn't imagine my life without now are a result of this.

The Beastie's transgressions relating to BOTH of these things are innumerable. Their music literally make me feel ill. It shoudln't exist, and I sincerely question the taste of anyone who thinks otherwise. I got fired form a job once over a heated debate over the merits of Paul's Boutique.

Hmm, Beastie Boys = inauthentic, 3rd Bass = authentic?

I think my head just exploded.

That siad, I never put 3rd Bass in any kind of "authentic" category in comparison to the BBoys, merely referenced one of their better songs.

But go ahead and hate them, what do I care.

THERE'S NO PRICE TOO HIGH FOR FREEDOM

makes me wanna kill myself.

Clint: "Kids, the war in Iraq is justified."

Kids: "Gee, thanks Clint Black! Now we know!"

Clint: "And knowing is half the battle!

Everyone: "Yo Joe!"

I'm too lazy too go look, but I don't believe the Dust Bros. have writing credits on every track.

I agree completely w/hstencil (surprise).

I think my head just exploded.

-- hstencil

I didn't even use the word until you did. I agree it's a faulty concept, definitely, but since it's on the table, and ONLY becuz it's hip hop we're talking about, I think it may as well be addressed.

(Though this might be an example of the left's horror of populism)

I avoided this thread for 38 posts cos I was confusing Clint Black with Clint BOON!

You wrote "So those who mocked, misappropriated, or just plain blemished it's reputation as a culture / axis, got the gas face."

I suppose I can ask you why you think the Beastie Boys "mocked, misappropriated, or just plain blemished [hip hop's] reputation as a culture / axis," but I just plain don't have any stake in it (I don't really care about them OR hip hop all that much), plus it's probably a much bigger subject designed for a different thread. I will say that I found your assertation pretty bizarre, and as it was related to your personal experience with grocery-bagger poverty, pretty about what's "authentic" in hip hop and what isn't.

I haven't heard either song, but they both seem pretty lousy, but I'd give the Beastie Boys a little more benefit of the doubt than what I've seen on this thread so far.

Why they don't get Vanilla Ice status I'll never know.

That you somehow find one set of lyrics more "authentic" than the other is beyond me.

Where did I ever use the word "authentic?" Is it the same place that I placed class distinctions on these two songs (i.e. nowhere)? You are right about all of those sentiments that are expressed in these lyrics, and I am simply stating that those sentiments are also expressed by many people who consider an invasion into Iraq justified, hence it's not preachy so much as reflecting ideas that are held by many people (however wrong they might be). You are moralizing this song. I'm not. I'm looking at it as objectively as I can.

By the way, I just love the pro-war = "redneck asshole" idea. You're so considerate!

This comment from Tom: But *as sloganeering* they are better constructed than the Beasties' is all that I've been saying.

All of their other work aside, for simply releasing The In Sound From Way Out, they are completely inelligible for "Vanilla Ice status".

So, let me get this straight: because you grew up buying bad K-Solo records (I know, I bought "Tell the World My Name" too), you are more authentic than the Beasties, who actively sought out hip-hop in the early '80s when it wasn't "the law" for white dudes to do so, and then helped bring the music to a much wider audience (including to your sorry ass, most likely, whether you acknowledge it or not)?

And what about your own musical path? You're true school enough to attack the BB's, but it's okay for you to get into krautrock? I'd say you're both "products of your environment" (pun intended)

And no matter what you say, "Derelicts of Dialect" sucks big donkey dick.

I guess Tom just said it better. You've implied that Black is speaking for people and that the Beasties are not, which I think is a groundless assertion and is pretty independent from Tom's point.

The grounds of my assertion is a personal one: in the thread on the Beastie Boys song no one (that I can remember) could say anything positive about its lyrics (other than it was anti-war), while I have heard close approximations of Black's lyrics from people that I know, not to mention that Darryl Worley's similarly themed song is currently barrelling up the country charts. The real test will be which song -- Beasties or Black -- gets more airplay. It'll be Black by a landslide, I predict. But of course I say this because I hate all blue collar rednecks and I think they're stupid and they'll fall for anything. That's what you've been reading all along, right?

In a world gone mad it’s hard to think right
So much violence hate and spite
Murder going on all day and night
Due time we fight the non-violent fight

Mirrors, smokescreens and lies
It’s not the politicians but their actions I despise
You and Saddam should kick it like back in the day
With the cocaine and Courvoisier
But you build more bombs as you get more bold
As your mid-life crisis war unfolds
All you want to do is take control
Now put that axis of evil bullshit on hold
Citizen rule number 2080
Politicians are shady
So people watch your back 'cause I think they smoke crack
I don’t doubt it look at how they act

In a world gone mad it’s hard to think right
So much violence hate and spite
Murder going on all day and night
Due time we fight the non-violent fight

First the ‘War On Terror’ now war on Iraq
We’re reaching a point where we can’t turn back
Let’s lose the guns and let’s lose the bombs
And stop the corporate contributions that their built upon
Well I’ll be sleeping on your speeches ‘til I start to snore
‘Cause I won’t carry guns for an oil war
As-Salamu alaikum, wa alaikum assalam
Peace to the Middle East peace to Islam
Now don’t get us wrong ‘cause we love America
But that’s no reason to get hysterica
They’re layin’ on the syrup thick
We ain’t waffles we ain’t havin’ it

In a world gone mad it’s hard to think right
So much violence hate and spite
Murder going on all day and night
Due time we fight the non-violent fight

Now how many people must get killed?
For oil families pockets to get filled?
How many oil families get killed?
Not a damn one so what’s the deal?

It’s time to lead the way and de-escalate
Lose the weapons of mass destruction and the hate
Say ooh ah what’s the White House doin’?
Oh no! Say, what in tarnation have they got brewing??!!!!???!!
Well I’m not pro Bush and I’m not pro Saddam
We need these fools to remain calm
George Bush you’re looking like Zoolander
Trying to play tough for the camera
What am I on crazy pills? We’ve got to stop it
Get your hand out my grandma’s pocket
We need health care more than going to war
You think it’s democracy they’re fighting for?

In a world gone mad it’s hard to think right
So much violence hate and spite
Murder going on all day and night
Due time we fight the non-violent fight

hmm, so airplay is predicated upon what songs are popular? Are songs popular because they're inherently so, or because they're played on radio?

tocuhe

), you are more authentic than the Beasties, who actively sought out hip-hop in the early '80s when it wasn't "the law" for white dudes to do so, and then helped bring the music to a much wider audience (including to your sorry ass, most likely, whether you acknowledge it or not)?

wrong, in a big, big way. Beastie shad nothing to do with me discovering hip-hop - NOTHING! I actually saw Video Music Box onc when I wasvery young, and was hooked ever since.

And what about your own musical path? You're true school enough to attack the BB's, but it's okay for you to get into krautrock? I'd say you're both "products of your environment" (pun intended)

not really. None of us popped out of the womb with Liquid Liquid records in our hands. I 'discovered' Krautrock almost nine years ago, and, being fifteen, I think that's a pretty early introduction to it.

And no matter what you say, "Derelicts of Dialect" sucks big donkey dick.

nah - there are some good moments - if only for pop goes the weasel, and portrait of an artist as a hood.

i'd still take Poor Righteous Teachers over either, though

At the risk of repeating myself (something that seems necessary a lot on ILM): The Beastie Boys lyrics read like half the signs at the antiwar protests, joke lines included. Just because no one *here* voices such one-dimensional expressions, doesn't mean there aren't those out there who *do* (like, say, my mother - since you're fond of personal anecdotal evidence). And while no one here claimed the Beasties' were speaking for them, no one has really agreed w/Clint Black's lyrics either - dunno why you would disqualify the Beasties song on those grounds. If we're going on personal anecdotal evidence, I have mine that counters yours and we're back to square 1. Tom's analysis has to do with his own personal reaction to the song and how that reflects how the songs work, I think that's more valid.

the Beasties helped create the context that made it socially acceptable for you, a white guy, to get into hip-hop -- they helped make it "the law," as you say, where you grew up. and they made some great records along the way.

I'd say you're both "products of your environment" (pun intended)

my point here is that you take the Beasties to task for not being authentic hip-hop, and then you rattle off a laundry list of different music that your dilletante ass has gotten into ("punk - hardcore - emo - indie rock - psych / 'old' records - krautrock - noise - free jazz - dub - techno"). but you can righteously dismiss them because you watched Video Music Box once?

Which is the more "authentic" food, steak frites, french fries, or freedom fries?

Which is the more "authentic" GI Joe toy, the Star Wars-sized action figures, or the big dolls with the fuzzy hair?

Yes. Not to mention skills with drums, guitars, basses, keyboards (although big thanks go to Money Mark in that dept.!), samples, loops, echos, etc, etc. Not to mention Ad Rock was great in that biker movie he starred in with John Doe from X.

I knew plenty who did - mostly Jews (and we were not fratboys or jocks, I assure you) and the few black kids I knew. I won "Paul Revere" and "The King of Rock" 45s at this one bar mitzvah... "memorieeeeeees"...

"do you truly believe, in your heart, that ANY of the Beastie Boys possess an iota of skill on the mic?"

Sorry, I do believe this. They have three amazing and groundbreaking records that I know every word to.

and you actually, like, sing along? Do you think that the use of a bullhorn to cover up piss poor lyrics and mic skills is a cool idea? Do you agree it's good to have girls around to do the dishes, but that the disrespect of them has "got to be through?"

i guess, then, that the whole first two albums were a "joke" - the "lotta beer, lotta girls and a lot of cursing" was all, supposed to be, umm, ironic, right? yeah, now I get it. they're geniuses, clearly.

Now that I'm no longer in high school, and thus not invested in S.E. Hinton-style youth subculture rumbles, this revelation seems a bit less vital, but I still try to remember that an album shouldn't be judged by the people who buy it.

maybe you ought to take the hint

Andrew WK to thread!!!

Oh I don't really know at all, I was kinda joking. Just seemed to me like a lot of the anti-Andrew WK stuff had to do with people hating his perceived audience - whether or not that was *actually* his audience is obviously open to question.

[it's all coming back can you feel it?]*

**hint: lyrics.

Oh, I can think of a number of people off-hand who thought that his record was aimed at the "worst violent sexist fratjock element of American society" (I'm paraphrasing here) and summarily denounced it.

Of course, those people hate fun you know.

also, I didn't like the record very much myself--got too overbearing, y'know? still, individual songs are fun

"Party At Ground Zero"

Shakey, meet nickalicious.
nickalicious, meet Shakey.

from "i get wet":

You're making wars,
You're breaking doors,
And now you're on the floor.
I really don't care,
I really don't care.
I know you're tryin' to get somewhere.
You watch what I say,
(Watch what I say),
Watch what I do.
Because I really don't care,
I really don't care,
You're never gonna go nowhere.

i think he's saying that he doesn't care, but warns that "you" (bush, the usa, warriors at large) aren't gonna go nowhere (avoiding analysis of what double negative may suggest).

(i am totally not an expert on CB or his audience, and wd probbly like never to become one, i think: but the distinction — if this is one being made — that CB has *no* self-reflexive sociopolitical awareness bcz he's mainstream and reactionary and blah blah blah, compared to the beasties and their over-reflexive arty-liberal new york yadda yadda, seems a bit of a mistake)

(also: can you entirely tell how good/bad songwords are by reading them only?)

Mark, you may be right about Black's motives, especially considering how huge "patriotic" tunes have been on country radio (Worley, Toby Keith, Alan Jackson, Charlie Daniels). It could simply be opportunism...

he may well be writing the song entirely insincerely, or indeed putting the argument the best way he knows, in which case the contempt is not (nec3essarily) present

You do realize that these two things (Middle Eastern geopolitics and "paying the bills") are very very closely related, don't you? Would you like me to quote you the current average price of gasoline in the US? Or remind you that automobile sales make up a full *20%* of consumer spending in this country?

hah! Most Americans can't even handle doing either of those! I hear your point about not expecting everyone to hold a PhD in geopolitics, but I can't defend willful ignorance, and I don't think there's another country in the world that has a more deliberately uninformed populace than the US. Encouraging that myopia (a la Clint Black or Alan Jackson or whoever) is not a good thing.

As for the news story link, the Dixie Chicks handled that rather admirably, I think.

Hey, so far I think the only people who are coming out looking good are the Dixie Chicks! And maybe Steve Earle and Mr. Lif. The Beasties song is bad, mainstream hip-hop had its political balls severed a long time ago, pop hasn't addressed any real issues directly since maybe the early 80s... I'm not defending these other genres. You're right that Country at least acknowledges the issue, albeit in its traditionally reactionary, "proud to be dumb" way. I'm not sure if that's better than not addressing it at all. Maybe it is. At least it ignites debate, which is always good.

(3/26/03, 6 p.m. ET) -- Darryl Worley joined Toby Keith to perform for the President of the United States and military families at MacDill Air Force Base in Tampa, Florida Wednesday morning (March 26).

Have You Forgotten
Darryl Worley
Written by Darryl Worley and Wynn Varble
-----------------------------------------------------

I hear people saying we don't need this war
I say there's some things worth fighting for
What about our freedom and this piece of ground?
We didn't get to keep 'em by backing down
They say we don't realize the mess we're getting in
Before you start preaching
Let me ask you this my friend

CHORUS 1
Have you forgotten how it felt that day
To see your homeland under fire
And her people blown away?
Have you forgotten when those towers fell?
We had neighbors still inside
Going through a living hell
And you say we shouldn't worry 'bout Bin Laden
Have you forgotten?

They took all the footage off my T.V.
Said it's too disturbing for you and me
It'll just breed anger that's what the experts say
If it was up to me I'd show it every day
Some say this country's just out looking for a fight
After 9/11 man I'd have to say that's right

CHORUS 1
Have you forgotten how it felt that day
To see your homeland under fire
And her people blown away?
Have you forgotten when those towers fell?
We had neighbors still inside
Going through a living hell
And we vowed to get the ones behind Bin Laden
Have you forgotten?

I've been there with the soldiers
Who've gone away to war
And you can bet that they remember
Just what they're fighting for

CHORUS 2
Have you forgotten all the people killed?
Yes, some went down like heroes in that Pennsylvania field
Have you forgotten about our Pentagon?
All the loved ones that we lost
And those left to carry on
Don't you tell me not to worry 'bout Bin Laden
Have you forgotten?

Have you forgotten?
Have you forgotten?

C 2003 EMI April Music Inc./Pittsburg Landing Songs (ASCAP)