Musicians and/or groups that are so freakin' obviously the product of trustfunded nepotism...

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Starting with the worst first, and then working our way down...

― maria b (maria b), Monday, 12 January 2004 22:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Carly Simon, damn her!

― jody (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 12 January 2004 22:40 (twenty-two years ago)

...The Strokes?

― That famous guy who won a prize (nordicskilla), Monday, 12 January 2004 22:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Hank Jr. (not necessarily Hank III)

― Johnny Fever (johnny fever), Monday, 12 January 2004 22:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Deadsy

― Johnny Fever (johnny fever), Monday, 12 January 2004 22:43 (twenty-two years ago)

i first read maria's directions as:

Starting with the worst fist, and then working our way down...

in other words, ew.

― donut bitch (donut), Monday, 12 January 2004 22:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Osmond boys

― Jim Janse, Monday, 12 January 2004 22:45 (twenty-two years ago)

THE BRAXTONS

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 12 January 2004 22:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Destiny's Child (had to say it)

― donut bitch (donut), Monday, 12 January 2004 22:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Freeway

― That famous guy who won a prize (nordicskilla), Monday, 12 January 2004 22:50 (twenty-two years ago)

WORST RAPPERS PUT ON BY THEIR MAN:

Flipmode Squad
Jacky Jasper
Northstar
Cilvaringz

― Le Coq (DarrenK), Monday, 12 January 2004 22:51 (twenty-two years ago)

kula shakur

― search and delete, Monday, 12 January 2004 22:51 (twenty-two years ago)

elasticaaaaaah

― the surface noise (electricsound), Monday, 12 January 2004 22:51 (twenty-two years ago)

A.R.E. Weapons

― That famous guy who won a prize (nordicskilla), Monday, 12 January 2004 22:52 (twenty-two years ago)

The Wallflowers.

― Gear! (Gear!), Monday, 12 January 2004 22:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Norah Jones

― Nom De Plume (Nom De Plume), Monday, 12 January 2004 23:03 (twenty-two years ago)

It's only a matter of time... Paris Hilton.

― maria b (maria b), Monday, 12 January 2004 23:05 (twenty-two years ago)

that dog

― keith m (keithmcl), Monday, 12 January 2004 23:05 (twenty-two years ago)

All Beatles children.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Monday, 12 January 2004 23:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Hilton Sisters are the new Nelson.

― maria b (maria b), Monday, 12 January 2004 23:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Kim Gordon.

― maria b (maria b), Monday, 12 January 2004 23:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh God, how could I forget....

Rufus Wainwright!

― maria b (maria b), Monday, 12 January 2004 23:08 (twenty-two years ago)

but he's the most talented one in the family

― keith m (keithmcl), Monday, 12 January 2004 23:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Talent or not... he's got that silver spoon-fed puffy custard jowls thing goin' on. Blech!

― maria b (maria b), Monday, 12 January 2004 23:11 (twenty-two years ago)

True, but I still love him. Loudon can't be that loaded, can he?

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Monday, 12 January 2004 23:12 (twenty-two years ago)

longwave

― anthony kyle monday (akmonday), Monday, 12 January 2004 23:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Haha 'custard jowls', that's perfect!

Man, every time I see a pic of Rufus I just want to break his neck. And I don't really mind his music!

― Le Coq (DarrenK), Monday, 12 January 2004 23:15 (twenty-two years ago)

I have no problem with trustfunded nepotism if the music's good, really (which seems to be the case in almost all of these responses, as far as I'm concerned). I've heard plenty of godawful "poor" bands with tons of "street cred."

But I thought I'd chime in with this, if only to make Maria's nightmares come true:

MTV News 8/12/2003

Celebutant Paris Hilton is vying for a career as a pop star. The hotel heiress has been working on recording a dance pop album, which her producer Romeo Antonio describes as a cross between Jessica Simpson and Beyoncé, in terms of voice and style. Hilton has six songs in the can, including a midtempo ballad with the working title "Loneliness." As of yet, she has no label deal. ...

― Ben Boyer (Ben Boyer), Monday, 12 January 2004 23:22 (twenty-two years ago)

A selling point when she's shopping her album to labels should be her proven ability to put together a video on a very low budget.

― Nom De Plume (Nom De Plume), Monday, 12 January 2004 23:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Pete Yorn

― morris pavilion (samjeff), Monday, 12 January 2004 23:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Dino, Desi, and Billy! (Whom I've never heard.)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Monday, 12 January 2004 23:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Brassy.

― mike a, Monday, 12 January 2004 23:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Paris Hilton to Father: "But Daddy, I want an Oompa Loompa. I want an Oompa Loompa NOW!"

― maria b (maria b), Monday, 12 January 2004 23:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Carly Simon, Rufus Wainwright and Dhani Harrison. A Concert to Benefit Martha's Vineyard. 2004. And... erm... oh yeah. Directed by Sofia Coppola. :)

― maria b (maria b), Monday, 12 January 2004 23:44 (twenty-two years ago)

i dunno about brassy - they recently gave interviews whining about how they all needed full time jobs just to keep the band going

― the surface noise (electricsound), Monday, 12 January 2004 23:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Paris Hilton to Father: "But Daddy, I want an Oompa Loompa. I want an Oompa Loompa NOW!"

"And I want it to spunk hot jizz into my dirty little whore-maw."

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Monday, 12 January 2004 23:47 (twenty-two years ago)

kelli osbourne
avril lavigne
tim mcgraw

― gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 12 January 2004 23:47 (twenty-two years ago)

"Put that on the next batch of spam, dad."

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Monday, 12 January 2004 23:47 (twenty-two years ago)

A selling point when she's shopping her album to labels should be her proven ability to put together a video on a very low budget.

I smell enhanced CD.

― Leee Majors (Leee), Monday, 12 January 2004 23:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Why Avril?

― morris pavilion (samjeff), Monday, 12 January 2004 23:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Ghostly International

― ruth, Monday, 12 January 2004 23:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Rooney
Phantom Planet
The Wallflowers

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Whatever her name is, Lionel Richie's spawn who pals around with Paris Hilton, probably has a record in the pipeline, so I preemptively nominate her for this rogues' gallery.

Looking even further ahead, note to Elvis Costello and Diana Krall: please don't reproduce. Thanks, the management.

God help us if The Strokes have kids.

― Nom De Plume (Nom De Plume), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

every goddamned band in williamsburg

― , Tuesday, 13 January 2004 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

tim mcgraw

Doubtful, since Tim didn't even meet his father, baseball semi-great Tug McGraw until he was well into his career....apparently he didn't know that was his dad growing up....(I think based on what I remember from an interview...)

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 00:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Dino, Desi, and Billy! (Whom I've never heard.)

My first LP was a Dino, Desi, and Billy one, it made me what I am today!

― nickn (nickn), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 00:05 (twenty-two years ago)

tug mcgraw was a deadbeat dad. tim mcgraw found out when he was nine when he found his birth certificate.

― keith m (keithmcl), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 00:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Jonathan Fire*Eater? I've never heard them, though.

― Sean (Sean), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 00:08 (twenty-two years ago)

I saw Dino, Desi and Billy on the Ed Sullivan show (WNJN saturdays at 6 and 6:30 in the tri-state area) and they were awesome. Didn't Brian Wilson produce or write for them?

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 00:10 (twenty-two years ago)

That Dog featured Anna "Daughter of Lenny" Waronker and both Petra and Rachel "Daughters of Charlie" Haden! But they were really pretty good.

― Aaron A., Tuesday, 13 January 2004 00:15 (twenty-two years ago)

How about that Joey Waronker fellow? Walt Mink was a darn good band... but would a drummer from such a humble trio normally ascend to such heights of session-man stardom? (And now, uh, "Imarobot" fame.)

― morris pavilion (samjeff), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 00:19 (twenty-two years ago)

re: dino, desi, billy. it was lee hazlewood not brian (unless brian did as well at some point)

― gareth (gareth), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 00:22 (twenty-two years ago)

rufus wainwright's live band: famous son rufus plus famous daughter/sister martha wainwright plus famous son teddy thompson plus famous daughter jenni muldaur.

every one of them the offspring of not one but two recording artists.

thing is, they're an amazing live band with delicious harmonies. and while there may well have been some trust funds involved, there isn't any more nepotism there than in any other decent band. it's just a good-lucking guy playing with his buddies, just like almost every other band you can think of.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 00:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Jonathan Fire*Eater? I've never heard them, though.

Sorry, no famous parents.

― jody (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 00:34 (twenty-two years ago)

I know they're preppies and all, but...

― jody (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 00:35 (twenty-two years ago)

that maybe what I was thinking of. Lee and Brian are both faves of mine, and I really loved the song on the Ed Sullivan show, a nice almost twee Searchers kind of jangly thing.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 00:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Bijou Phillips

― Broheems (diamond), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 00:38 (twenty-two years ago)

the push kings were rich kids. all the indiepop kids hated them.

― keith m (keithmcl), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 00:40 (twenty-two years ago)

i thought it was because they suck ass?

― the surface noise (electricsound), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 00:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Were they the ones from Boston, on Sealed Fate? I don't know how rich they were, but I saw them open for someone once, and they (and their gaggle of fans upfront) were incredibly irritating.

(x-post)

― morris pavilion (samjeff), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 00:43 (twenty-two years ago)

wilson phillips
marky mark & the funky bunch
latoya jackson

― gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 00:44 (twenty-two years ago)

okay i win:

lisa marie presley

― gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 00:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Dido
Jeff Buckley?

― Stupid (Stupid), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 00:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Joey Waronker I'm sure benefited from is dad's connections, but he is about as technically perfect a drummer as you'll see.

Gygax wins.

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 00:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Whatever happened to The Funky Bunch?

― That famous guy who won a prize (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 00:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Ummm, Nancy Sinatra?

― dlp9001, Tuesday, 13 January 2004 01:19 (twenty-two years ago)

The Shaggs

― Gas Coin, Tuesday, 13 January 2004 01:21 (twenty-two years ago)

the Upper Crust. and the Fresh Prince of Bel Air.

and Fuck the Majesticons.

― autovac (autovac), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 08:57 (twenty-two years ago)

This is kinda two different threads, though, right? I mean on the one hand you have the "rock star royalty" kids like Jeff Buckley and Julian Lennon, and then you have the trustfunders (trustafarians, har har har) who simply have rich-though-not-necessarily-famous parents like the Strokes and, possibly, Jonathan Fire*Eater/Walkmen (I say possibly there as the only evidence I have is that they come across as somewhat shamelessly preppy Upper East Side refugees).

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 12:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Has anyone said Kula Shaker? If so, let's say it again. And often.

― mark grout (mark grout), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 12:55 (twenty-two years ago)

"Cyntha veda veda Tatttva, man!"

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 13:04 (twenty-two years ago)

And not "Ginger Baker's glorious Tat's man"

― mark grout (mark grout), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 13:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Hank Jr. didn't grow up "trustfunded", unless you call being put out on the road to play shows when you are a kid to put money on the table for your family because your dad is dead and there is no other means of support.

He may be a freak, but the guy had to do some hard living when he was young.

― earlnash, Tuesday, 13 January 2004 13:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Hank Jr. also fell off a mountain and lived. Hank Jr. is also criminally underrated.

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 15:45 (twenty-two years ago)

LENNY FUCKING KRAVITZ

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 15:49 (twenty-two years ago)

What's his background then?

― mark grout (mark grout), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 15:51 (twenty-two years ago)

His mom was on the Jeffersons.

― Luigi Vampa (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 15:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Um, what is that, exactly?

― mark grout (mark grout), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 15:53 (twenty-two years ago)

It's a 70s sitcom (and musical on ice).

― BrianB (BrianB), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 16:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Rockwell - the son or nephew of Barry Gordy an thus got Michael Jackson to sing the chorus of his hit "Somebody's Watching Me"?

― BrianB (BrianB), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 16:13 (twenty-two years ago)

And Mordecai Richler wrote a novel about his brother.
(really! Duddy's brother is Leonard!)

― Luigi Vampa (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 16:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Son of Sam

― Luigi Vampa (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 16:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Jesus

― Luigi Vampa (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 16:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Okay... just to be preemptive... how about the Bjork/Matthew Barney kid? What's it's name? Siddhartha or something?

― maria b (maria b), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 18:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Rockwell - the son or nephew of Barry Gordy an thus got Michael Jackson to sing the chorus of his hit "Somebody's Watching Me"?

I thought this was a myth and that wasn't actually Jackson, just an impersonation.

Who is Dido descended from?

― anthony kyle monday (akmonday), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 18:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Fido Dido

― Luigi Vampa (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 18:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Kravitz's Dad was a music industry bigwig as well. Therefore, we have been tortured by this no talent hack for 10 years.

― Speedy Gonzalas (Speedy Gonzalas), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 18:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Ummm, hello? The friggin' dixie chicks.

― Felcher (Felcher), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 18:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Does Lloyd have THAT much clout in mainstream N'ville?
And weren't they around for a while before his daughter joined (though they didn't get really successful until then)?

― Luigi Vampa (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 18:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Jonathan Fire*Eater/Walkmen (I say possibly there as the only evidence I have is that they come across as somewhat shamelessly preppy Upper East Side refugees).

you can omit the "possibly." they're minted.

― lauren (laurenp), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 18:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, i know that the reason they first charted was because lloyd had enough pull to convince the label to purchase 1,000,000 copies of the album in order for people to take notice of the "hot new act." sounds like nepotism to me.

― Felcher (Felcher), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 18:38 (twenty-two years ago)

hmmm, didn't know that (not that I would've taken note had I heard it before).
Whatever, he's produced some of my favourite records (Bad Livers, Wayne Hancock) so he gets a free ride from me.

― Luigi Vampa (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 18:46 (twenty-two years ago)

I also heard that shit band Eve 6 got their record deal when they were in high school and that one of the stipulations of the contract was that they fire their drummer and hire the record executive's son.

― Felcher (Felcher), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 18:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Bjork and Matthew Barney have a kid? O.O;;; i knew about Sindri, but...

― janni (janni), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 18:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I think the more interesting question is: isn't this becoming more the norm now than anything else, slowly but surely? (the nepotism that is). Or more generally, the amount of "popular" musicians that are new are coming for classes slightly more affluent than the previous each following year (with exceptions, obviously)

― donut bitch (donut), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 19:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Name a band at the time rock and roll was being invented that wasn't working class.

― , Tuesday, 13 January 2004 19:24 (twenty-two years ago)

depends on how you define "the time rock and roll was being invented"
but didn't Jagger and Richards meet in art school?

― Felcher (Felcher), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 19:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Actually, I think they met in grammar school, but when they started playing together Jagger was studying economics???

― Luigi Vampa (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 19:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Keith invented the working class. Mick was middle class but I always though it was Brian and Keith's band

― , Tuesday, 13 January 2004 19:28 (twenty-two years ago)

I will say, though, that the middle class kids that started bands back then delved much more deeply or more authentically admired the working class than bands today.

― , Tuesday, 13 January 2004 19:31 (twenty-two years ago)

It was Dick Taylor and Ian Stewart's band.

― Broheems (diamond), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 19:32 (twenty-two years ago)

that's cuz working class folk can't buy no $150 concert tix

― Luigi Vampa (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 19:33 (twenty-two years ago)

what's so great about the working class?

― america's first municipal lunatic asylum (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 19:33 (twenty-two years ago)

they suffer

― Luigi Vampa (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 19:34 (twenty-two years ago)

*quickly closes centuries-old can of worms*

― america's first municipal lunatic asylum (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 19:34 (twenty-two years ago)

and have leathery hands that make my pampered flesh scream with burning passion

― Luigi Vampa (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 19:35 (twenty-two years ago)

now yer talkin

― america's first municipal lunatic asylum (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 19:35 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, they have to work like hard, icky jobs and stuff and raise families-- they suck. i bet they dont even go to starbucks everyday to buy cool cds or listen to NPR or own a Volvo.

― jack cole (jackcole), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 19:36 (twenty-two years ago)

zzzzzzzz

― america's first municipal lunatic asylum (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 19:36 (twenty-two years ago)

haven't you heard? the hummer is the new strawman.

― america's first municipal lunatic asylum (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 19:37 (twenty-two years ago)

okay let's look at the facts. were bands better back then when Real Working Men started them or now when Fake Working Men start them.

― , Tuesday, 13 January 2004 19:40 (twenty-two years ago)

I was looking up Leif Garrett to see if he was - but apparently, he worked for his fame - so forget that .. But did you know that Debralee Scott was his sister? (Sweathog, Rosalie "Hotzie" Totzie)

― dave225 (Dave225), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 19:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Mark Smith's pretty much holding down the fort.

― , Tuesday, 13 January 2004 19:45 (twenty-two years ago)

neither the fake nor the real working man is better than the other -- its a matter of what either creates that counts.

― jack cole (jackcole), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 19:46 (twenty-two years ago)

being a midlevel touring musician is pretty working class. except with no foreman.

― Luigi Vampa (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 19:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Who is Dido descended from?

Boho posh parents, it would seem. Does that make Faithless trustfunded nepotists too?

― ailsa (ailsa), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 19:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, and surely Elastica?

― ailsa (ailsa), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 19:48 (twenty-two years ago)

I know they're highly respected musicians in most circles, but THE MARSALIS BROTHERS. Especially that WYNTON cockgoblin. LAMEST JAZZ MUSICIAN EVAR.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 19:49 (twenty-two years ago)

(I have just realised that what I said are not examples of nepotism, just trustfundedness and I apologise before going straight back to sleep)

― ailsa (ailsa), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 19:50 (twenty-two years ago)

I'll take nepotism over trust funds any day. Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan

― , Tuesday, 13 January 2004 19:51 (twenty-two years ago)

you know, when i have a kid, i want it to grow up REALLY POOR, no matter how much money i make. i want to ensure that it's not provided for at all.

― america's first municipal lunatic asylum (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 20:02 (twenty-two years ago)

"sorry kid, i'm shipping you off to boarding school in the mississippi delta."

― america's first municipal lunatic asylum (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 20:06 (twenty-two years ago)

maybe we should start a thread where we list the progeny/relations/acquaintances of famous folk who have failed in their bid to set the charts on fire

― Luigi Vampa (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 20:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Jonathan Fire*Eater/Walkmen (I say possibly there as the only evidence I have is that they come across as somewhat shamelessly preppy Upper East Side refugees).

Close; the JF*E guys met at a posh NW DC school.

Didn't Anthony Kiedis' father own some famous/notorious LA nightclub?

― j.lu (j.lu), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 20:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Isn't this basically just a thread where we bash on people we already hate only our reasoning is "because they're rich and/or have connections"?

Anyway, add Heather Nova.

― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 20:20 (twenty-two years ago)

my point is that there is nothing wrong with being working class, not that people shouldn't strive to do economically better for themselves, if that's what they want. being rich or upper middle class or whatever isnt a superior position. money doesnt make one better person or add value to them as a person (and that isnt to say because someone is rich or whatever they are necessarily a bad person either -- bad people are in every class).

― jack cole (jackcole), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 20:21 (twenty-two years ago)

okay but are there any good original musicians in the middle class?

― , Tuesday, 13 January 2004 20:24 (twenty-two years ago)

"What in the FUCK do you guys have to be pissed off about?
Spoon-fed upper middle class white guys, playing in your garage
singing songs about how pissed off you are..
..
what's your fucking problem? Are you pissed off that you have nothing to be pissed off about?
..
Put a three piece suit on motherfuckers
..
" (or summat)

-New Rob Robbies, -Scoop Related-

― dave225 (Dave225), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 20:26 (twenty-two years ago)

i guess my whole problem with this thread or whatever is that good musicians have come from all classes. class is irrelevant.

― jack cole (jackcole), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 20:27 (twenty-two years ago)

also, for musicians from the middle class, see Miles Davis.

― jack cole (jackcole), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 20:28 (twenty-two years ago)

define "middle class".

(and no matter what your definition is I'm sure the answer is "yes", because quantitative things like money have no causal relationship with qualitative things like originality and musicianship).

umm, what jack cole said.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 13 January 2004 20:29 (twenty-two years ago)

jack cole, OTM as usual.

― dave225 (Dave225), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 20:33 (twenty-two years ago)

.. But still, fun to point out that Liza Minelli is crap...

― dave225 (Dave225), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 20:33 (twenty-two years ago)

what rich white coddled kid has ever started a good band?

― , Tuesday, 13 January 2004 20:34 (twenty-two years ago)

"what rich white coddled kid has ever started a good band?"

Is this a joke? Give it up already. Do you only listen to music performed by poor black people or something? Do you insist that all your records come with well-documented bios illustrating how much the artist has suffered economically?

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 13 January 2004 20:40 (twenty-two years ago)

The Walkmen and their brethren are bland, re-hashed bands because that is exactly how the monied classes create art, i.e. their affectless music has a direct causal relationship to the fact that their money has shielded them from finding things out for themselves. They take something out of the context from which it organically sprang and reify it, smoothe the edges and their parents pat them on the head.

― , Tuesday, 13 January 2004 20:41 (twenty-two years ago)

this is all projection and hypothesis on your part. You don't know these people and you have no first-hand knowledge of their creative processes.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 13 January 2004 20:42 (twenty-two years ago)

yes I do and yes I do

― , Tuesday, 13 January 2004 20:43 (twenty-two years ago)

That is such bullshit. It may or may not be the case with the Walkmen, I dunno - but as a generalization, fuck it.

― dave225 (Dave225), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 20:44 (twenty-two years ago)

we rabble do manage to peek in from the servant's quarters and derive some insight stealthy like

― , Tuesday, 13 January 2004 20:45 (twenty-two years ago)

their money has shielded them from finding things out for themselves

This is perhaps the biggest load of horseshit I have read for some time (apart from C-man's defence of himself as a decent guy).

Plenty of people have pushy parents without having money, also plenty people have money but no parental love. Fuck, I can't even be bothered explaining in how many ways that statement sucked.

― ailsa (ailsa), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 20:45 (twenty-two years ago)

how come you didn't answer my questions? Do you only listen to music performed by poor black people? Do you run background checks on musicians before you listen to anything? Do you actually like music, or are you just in it for the rebel posturing?

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 13 January 2004 20:47 (twenty-two years ago)

SO WHAT'S AN EXAMPLE OF A RICH WHITE KID WHO HAD AN ORIGINAL MUSICAL IDEA?

― , Tuesday, 13 January 2004 20:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Bob Weir

― Broheems (diamond), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 20:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Velvet Underground
the Beatles
the Beach Boys
Led Zeppelin
My Bloody Valentine
Pavement
the Clash
Captain Beefheart
ad infinitum

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 13 January 2004 20:49 (twenty-two years ago)

gary numan

― america's first municipal lunatic asylum (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 20:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Neil Young
Mogwai
the Zombies
Sonic Youth
Pink Floyd
the Butthole Surfers
Phil Spector
Blondie
Kraftwerk
T. Rex
Tears for Fears
Pussy Galore/Royal Trux/JSBX
Georgio Moroder

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 13 January 2004 20:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Lou Reed is a really bad example, IMO. Yes, let's send rock and roll to college - it will be so much better that way.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 20:58 (twenty-two years ago)

well, it happened, kerry, you can't take it back.

― Luigi Vampa (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 21:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Talking Heads
And isn't Eno from some kind of poshness?

― nickn (nickn), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 21:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Emo is SOOOO priviledged.

― Luigi Vampa (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 21:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, well, did it have to be Syracuse?

Talking Heads - yes. Because the Rhode Island School of Design is much better.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 21:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Brian Eno is the "son of a postman and a Belgian immigrant".

John Cale was a poor Welsh boy and all VU originality is attributable to him.

Next.

― , Tuesday, 13 January 2004 21:20 (twenty-two years ago)

also, another case where i might be direly wrong, but didn't lightning bolt meet in art school? (i apologize for my lack of information)

― Felcher (Felcher), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 21:22 (twenty-two years ago)

The occasions that the Talking Heads were good were due to Eno

― , Tuesday, 13 January 2004 21:22 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm betting on Chippendale

― , Tuesday, 13 January 2004 21:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Albert Brooks and his brother Super Dave Osbourne would have never gotten anywhere without the help of their father Parkyakarkus. Oh wait, they don't sing.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 21:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Art school is good. Useless major at posh liberal arts college is good. But if you majored in psychology at Ball State, you should stick to the church choir.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 21:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Carly Simon, damn her!

Apparently she and James Taylor have a son who went into music. Can you imagine the nepotistic (nepotal?) connection that kid must have?

― j.lu (j.lu), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 21:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Ben Taylor. He's a hunk.

― scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 21:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Dieter Meier of Yello comes from old Swiss money. That motherfucker created some original music.

― Dave Segal (Da ve Segal), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 22:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Brian Eno's real name is Brian Peter George St John le Baptiste de la Salle.

― LondonLee (LondonLee), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 22:24 (twenty-two years ago)

"Brian Eno is the "son of a postman and a Belgian immigrant".
John Cale was a poor Welsh boy and all VU originality is attributable to him.

Next.

-- (bi...), January 13th, 2004."

mm - how about those other dozen or so bands I listed? Or do they all suck because they're all rich white people?

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 13 January 2004 22:42 (twenty-two years ago)

All of them are either not rich or not original. Mostly the former.

― , Tuesday, 13 January 2004 22:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Jandek's a contender

― , Tuesday, 13 January 2004 22:55 (twenty-two years ago)

define "original".

I mean, c'mon, the BEATLES are not original?!? KRAFTWERK was not original? Phil Spector?? Methinks you are clinging to some seriously outdated concepts and standards...

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 13 January 2004 23:09 (twenty-two years ago)

the Beatles weren't rich kids.

Kraftwerk's innovations weren't musical as much as conceptual.

Phil Spector was an orchestrator.

― , Tuesday, 13 January 2004 23:17 (twenty-two years ago)

compared to some hapless Cambodian peasant the Beatles certainly were rich kids. Certainly none of them were poor. Where are you placing "rich" on the scale here? Because anyone in the western world who's making a living is definitely rich compared to the poor of the rest of the world (or does the rest of the world only count when they're making "original" music for your consumption?) Nice dodge with Kraftwerk - how does one separate their concepts from their music, exactly? Seeing as how their music was the sole illustration/realization of their concepts? And Spector - being an orchestrator is somehow different from being in a band? Was he not responsible for the music? The guiding force behind it, writing it, directing it, voicing it, telling the performers what to do...? Do you admit that he was at least a) a rich white kid, who was b) directly responsible for creating "original" music?

Still waiting for your definition of "original", btw.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 13 January 2004 23:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Spector's dad was a steelworker. He grew up in the Bronx.

― , Tuesday, 13 January 2004 23:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Also I think it's rather half-assed to defend grand sweeping generalizations by making hair-splitting delineations (eg, "___ not REALLY rich" or "___ not REALLY a band" or what have you). Sort of puts the lie to your assertions, in that you've constructed an argument that you can't defend on its own terms, instead you've got to get into these tiny details to make it even seem valid...

I've read Spector's bio "He's a Rebel". He hardly grew up in poverty.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 13 January 2004 23:29 (twenty-two years ago)

I like how blue-collar professions are automatically seen as "poor" regardless of how much money the person actually makes (my sister-in-law works for the auto industry and knows of at least two janitors who pull in $100K).

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 23:31 (twenty-two years ago)

well, bi's class delineations are largely arbitary and meaningless, since they don't seem to have anything to do with actual amounts of money/income, nor do they hew to the classical Marxist definitions of anybody who has to work for a living vs. the idle rich.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 13 January 2004 23:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Shakey - it's called "trolling."

― schwantz, Tuesday, 13 January 2004 23:36 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm definitely talking about working class, not necessarily poor.

― , Tuesday, 13 January 2004 23:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Who wants to buy Grand Royal?

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 23:39 (twenty-two years ago)

what's trolling exactly? Am I doing that? I apologize if I am

― , Tuesday, 13 January 2004 23:41 (twenty-two years ago)

alright then.

how many people who own the means of production have had an original musical idea?

― , Tuesday, 13 January 2004 23:44 (twenty-two years ago)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

― schwantz, Tuesday, 13 January 2004 23:49 (twenty-two years ago)

whatever, I give up. Live with your stupid boundaries already, it just means there will be that much less music for you to enjoy.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 13 January 2004 23:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Terry Melcher (producer of Paul Revere & the Raiders, also son of Dinah Shore)

― Joseph McCombs, Tuesday, 13 January 2004 23:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Terry Melcher (producer of Paul Revere & the Raiders, also son of Dinah Shore)

Doris Day is Melcher's mother. (and Melcher is probably more famous these days for being the producer of The Byrds and the Beach Boys)

― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Wednesday, 14 January 2004 00:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Elvis- you're right, I'm a ditz. Thanks.

― Joseph McCombs, Wednesday, 14 January 2004 00:08 (twenty-two years ago)

my this thread has gone places. as for the comment about all that is good about VU being Cale alone -- nice try, but no cigar. the VU, at least when Cale was in the band, is all about the friction between rock/pop and the avant-garde. Pickawick crashes into LaMonte Young (sic cuz im too lazy right now to look up the actually spelling).

― jack cole (jackcole), Wednesday, 14 January 2004 00:21 (twenty-two years ago)

It seems by that definition that the gist of trolling is to make indefensible arguments or slander people gratuitously. Say I'm wrong but don't say I'm being disingenuous. I couldn't feel more strongly that music is in the hands of the wrong people today. And however tedious the finer details are I'm still making a worthy overall critique and yes, I believe I'm winning the argument! That was a joke. We're all winners.

Again, Terry Melcher was more of a conduit than an inventor of new things.

― , Wednesday, 14 January 2004 00:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah the VU is completely about friction. And that friction came from Cale. Who's more "original", Pickawick Records or LaMonte Young?

― , Wednesday, 14 January 2004 00:32 (twenty-two years ago)

friction requires TWO OBJECTS. not just one (ie, Cale).

Also, originality is a red herring. Just like "influence". It's a meaningless concept.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 14 January 2004 00:38 (twenty-two years ago)

it should also be note that i intentionally chose extreme examples of each of their pre-VU work to illustrate my point.

besides, "the ostrich" rocks.

― jack cole (jackcole), Wednesday, 14 January 2004 00:42 (twenty-two years ago)

on another note, it may be kind of late to point this out, but "rich, coddled white kids" =/ "people who own the means of production", so yr "argument" has been altered rather significantly.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 14 January 2004 00:42 (twenty-two years ago)

But without Cale it woulda just been Pickwick records. Without Reed it woulda been, uh, LaMonte Youngish.

I don't care about influence at all. But originality always characterizes good music, although just because something is original doesn't mean it's good.

― , Wednesday, 14 January 2004 00:47 (twenty-two years ago)

But would you have loved the VU as much if everything had been Ostrich caliber?

And, Shakey, do we really need to talk about exactly what percentage of the owners of the means of production are rich white people?

― , Wednesday, 14 January 2004 00:50 (twenty-two years ago)

middle-class rockers who somehow managed to get at least somewhat avant-garde: lou reed, frank zappa, captain beefheart, (our own beloved) nick currie.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Wednesday, 14 January 2004 00:52 (twenty-two years ago)

dood, take a logic 101 class. Owners of means of production are all rich white people, but not all rich white people own the means of production.

You cannot separate originality from influence, they're both complementary and equally useless. For example, if someone's been influenced by something than they're taking ideas from it - therefore they aren't being entirely original. You can't consider anyone original unless you free them from the web of influence, which is impossible since *everything* and *every artist* has precursors, influences, predecessors, etc. Nothing is cut from whole cloth.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 14 January 2004 01:01 (twenty-two years ago)

the saddest thing is that now im the side of defending pop in these shenanigans -- oh the irony.

― jack cole (jackcole), Wednesday, 14 January 2004 01:06 (twenty-two years ago)

I always knew you were a closet pop freak.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 14 January 2004 01:10 (twenty-two years ago)

ha ha ha, my point being --> "pop" (as in melody, structure, etc -- not chartpop) being just as good as the experimental, avant garde. i wouldnt want to exclusively listen to either.

― jack cole (jackcole), Wednesday, 14 January 2004 01:12 (twenty-two years ago)

why worry about pop vs. avant-garde when you can just decide to exclusively listen to records made by people who earned less than $_____ last year?

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 14 January 2004 01:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Jesus

Okay, Shakey, do we really need to talk about exactly what percentage of rich white people are the owners of the means of production?

I'm talking about gauging an artist's worth by how SUBSEQUENTLY influential they are--that's a bogus barometer that holds no interest for me.

GAUGING THEIR WORTH by how original they are is also bogus. But there will be some element of originality in all good music.

― , Wednesday, 14 January 2004 01:19 (twenty-two years ago)

it's odd that I'm the one accused of being incendiary in this argument.

― , Wednesday, 14 January 2004 01:22 (twenty-two years ago)

b-b-but what IS originality then? It must have something to do with influences, since your position is that "rich coddled white kids" influences are somehow illegitimate - after all they were "bought for them" so that they could "take them out of context". Clearly you think there must be some CORRECT way to absorb and process your influences - but if that's the case then you have to reject your stupid and completely nebulous concept of "originality".

Likewise bullshit is your assertion that rich white people are all capitalists the means of production. What about the janitor making $50K in America? Technically that guy's a rich white bazillionaire compared to some hapless Jamaican sweatshop worker. Oh, but he's still considered "working class" (why?) Again, all these terms you're throwing around, the scale of comparison that you use, they don't MEAN ANYTHING.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 14 January 2004 01:28 (twenty-two years ago)

god that post was a mess, my apologies, must... acquire... better...editing... skills...

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 14 January 2004 01:29 (twenty-two years ago)

but he's still considered "working class" (why?)

A little thing called "context"

― LondonLee (LondonLee), Wednesday, 14 January 2004 01:42 (twenty-two years ago)

meaning what, that next to the Walkmen the janitor is working class? Doesn't that seem a little arbitrary?

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 14 January 2004 01:48 (twenty-two years ago)

200 posts later--the push kings were great! not the last album though.

― keith m (keithmcl), Wednesday, 14 January 2004 03:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I wonder if when Bijou Phillips farts... does it smell like cinnamon rolls?

― maria b (maria b), Wednesday, 14 January 2004 04:23 (twenty-two years ago)

So musical creativity is as innate as farts?

― , Wednesday, 14 January 2004 04:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Kula Shaker

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 14 January 2004 12:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Pere Ubu, Devo. Rich kids with nothing else to do but experiment with musical instruments.

― dave225 (Dave225), Wednesday, 14 January 2004 12:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Erm... probably not. Farts are pretty darn innate.

― maria b (maria b), Wednesday, 14 January 2004 16:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Indie Rock

― Ian Christe (Ian Christe), Wednesday, 14 January 2004 17:51 (twenty-two years ago)

four months pass...

Townes Van Zandt and Gram Parsons both came from BIG money.

― shookout (shookout), Sunday, 13 June 2004 00:06 (twenty-two years ago)

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