Why Do Critics Attack Other Critics

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Is there any legitimate reason to go on and on slamming other music critics (SFJ on Nick Hornby; Daddino on DeRogatis & co.; etc.) Is it just ego boosting, wannabe academic exercise, or does it actually serve a useful function?

― spoony G, Thursday, 12 August 2004 20:28 (twenty-one years ago)

because critics "criticize" for a living!

― s1ocki (slutsky), Thursday, 12 August 2004 20:32 (twenty-one years ago)

haha you're basically questioning value of ALL book reviews

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 12 August 2004 20:35 (twenty-one years ago)

haha you're basically questioning the value of ALL book reviews

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 12 August 2004 20:35 (twenty-one years ago)

so you don't think they attack other critics to make themselves feel better, instead of critiquing art in service of the public?

― spoony G, Thursday, 12 August 2004 20:35 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm not questioning the value of it, i'm questioning the spirit and intent of it.

― spoony G, Thursday, 12 August 2004 20:36 (twenty-one years ago)

why don't you give some examples from those reviews of why you assume their intent is questionable.

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 12 August 2004 20:37 (twenty-one years ago)

as opposed to every other review ever

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 12 August 2004 20:38 (twenty-one years ago)

critiquing other people's views on art = critiquing art

― s1ocki (slutsky), Thursday, 12 August 2004 20:38 (twenty-one years ago)

so you think it's perfectly legit to attack other critics for sport?

― spoony G, Thursday, 12 August 2004 20:41 (twenty-one years ago)

for sport

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 12 August 2004 20:41 (twenty-one years ago)

did i say that? (xp)

― s1ocki (slutsky), Thursday, 12 August 2004 20:41 (twenty-one years ago)

it's the height of arrogance. but then again, music critics are the most pretentious lot on the planet, compensating for their fat bodies and lack of love lives.

― spoony G, Thursday, 12 August 2004 20:42 (twenty-one years ago)

NOW who's hunting DeRogatis for sport?

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 12 August 2004 20:43 (twenty-one years ago)

hahahahahahahah me

― spoony G, Thursday, 12 August 2004 20:43 (twenty-one years ago)

why not just call this thread "i don't care for music critics"?

― s1ocki (slutsky), Thursday, 12 August 2004 20:43 (twenty-one years ago)

because i love music critics.

― spoony G, Thursday, 12 August 2004 20:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Armond White to thread (please get hit by a bus en route thx)

― Gear! (Gear!), Thursday, 12 August 2004 20:44 (twenty-one years ago)

because i love music critics

then you should love the height of arrogance

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 12 August 2004 20:45 (twenty-one years ago)

arrogance RULES. nothing better.

― spoony G, Thursday, 12 August 2004 20:46 (twenty-one years ago)

it's useful because it allows ppl to avoid critics that they might dislike, in the same way that negative reviews help ppl avoid music that they dislike. Also, it helps ppl to find new arguments to back up their dislike of a certain critic when discussing them, much as negative reviews help ppl find new arguments to use when discussing music they like.

gear I accidentally own an Armond White book, why is he bad?

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Thursday, 12 August 2004 20:55 (twenty-one years ago)

I was wondering when I was gonna see this thread.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Thursday, 12 August 2004 20:58 (twenty-one years ago)

(wait, is this another thread about the Alex In NYC/VV softball game?)

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Thursday, 12 August 2004 20:58 (twenty-one years ago)

He's just a jerk whose analysis isn't very useful because once he likes a director, he'll defend them to the end (DePalma, Spielberg, Altman, Jonathan Demme, Kevin Costner, Oliver Stone), and once he doesn't like someone, that's it, they're irredeemable (Denzel Washington, Samuel L. Jackson, PT Anderson, Hong Kong cinema, etc).

the fun comes from watching him twist around when one of his pets works with someone/something he hates (Denzel w/Demme, Altman working with DV). He always ends up saying something like "hey usually he/this sucks, but DEMME etc makes it work!"

― Gear! (Gear!), Thursday, 12 August 2004 20:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Daddino, you think very highly of yourself, no?

― spoony G, Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:00 (twenty-one years ago)

Daddino, you think very highly of yourself, no?

The real Spoonie Gee would never find fault in this

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:02 (twenty-one years ago)

I was just reading Nick Hornby today in The Believer. I like his books column. It's funny.

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:02 (twenty-one years ago)

no, spoonie gee would not.

― spoony G, Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:03 (twenty-one years ago)

and now it's time to play Guess Which Kill Your Idols Contributor Is Posting As Spoony G!!!!

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:03 (twenty-one years ago)

SpRo?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:04 (twenty-one years ago)

HAHAHAHAHAHA i have no idols to kill.

― spoony G, Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:04 (twenty-one years ago)

so you're just a bored troll, then?

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:05 (twenty-one years ago)

oh man, I got hash and a reload button fer this thread, my night is DONE!

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:06 (twenty-one years ago)

i agree. i like hornby's writing. the marah piece was gay, but i don't need to elevate myself by lengthily stepping on it in public.

― spoony G, Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:06 (twenty-one years ago)

that's because your critiques lack a modicum of insight

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:07 (twenty-one years ago)

nah, i just like calling arrogant rock critics out on their bullshit self-aggrandizing ways

― spoony G, Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:07 (twenty-one years ago)

sorry, that's why no one asked you to.

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:07 (twenty-one years ago)

(x-post)

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:07 (twenty-one years ago)

My god, this is great for curing my insomnia, thanks SpRo!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:08 (twenty-one years ago)

the real CeCe Peniston would never find fault with that.

― spoony G, Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:08 (twenty-one years ago)

CeCe is a critic who hates being called out.

― spoony G, Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:08 (twenty-one years ago)

i hate you, CeCe Peniston.

― spoony G, Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:09 (twenty-one years ago)

you haven't called me out yet, dawg (btw I recommend dropping the names of two bands I like, breaks my heart every time)

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:10 (twenty-one years ago)

i didn't say *I* did; you just don't like it in general.

you've been watching too much american idol, dawg.

― spoony G, Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:11 (twenty-one years ago)

i disagree, dawg

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:11 (twenty-one years ago)

CeCe walks the fucking walk and talks the fucking talk, motherfucker! With his REAL name in lights!

That's it! The only ism I want to come out of your mouths is jism. Overacademic Bullshit Must Die.

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:12 (twenty-one years ago)

i liked your vines review though -- WELL DONE, SPORT!

― spoony G, Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:13 (twenty-one years ago)

I sometimes wonder if that thread is when the terrorists started to win on ILX (I'm not that proud, aside from the fact that I used my real anme).

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:13 (twenty-one years ago)

you know i love you, miccio

― spoony G, Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:14 (twenty-one years ago)

I like that thread, Anthony. It's a hoot!

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:14 (twenty-one years ago)

it is funny, but in a lot of ways I regret that I got what I asked for

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:15 (twenty-one years ago)

i want to be you. how?

― spoony G, Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:18 (twenty-one years ago)

sorry, you have to be damned to this existence.

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Believe me, I almost wish my review was done simply "out of sport," that there was nothing riding on what I said other than reputation or ego or spite. Because, quite simply, the book is a hound from hell. It's bad in a way I can't just shrug off. Some of it is awe-inspiring in an entirely negative way, like the paragraph about synthesizers in Nordstedt's Pet Sounds essay (it's on page 27) that could take hours of patient explaining to untangle its wrongness. (Rejected sentence from the essay: I don't think I could ever write sentences that bald, not even in jest -- couldn't even think them, such are the limits of my imagination, hence the awe.) Other times, it's the horror of self-recognition: when I noticed all the ways DeRo (and some of his charges) telegraphs the punchlines to his jokes (italics, overemphatic punctuation, placement at the end of paragraphs) in his Sgt. Pepper essay, I thought, gawww, how lame, how desperate for the approval of the reader he's being...and then I thought holy crap, do I do that? I probably do! Am I that desperate? I...I...oy.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Michael, you are to anxious to dignify the hataz.

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:26 (twenty-one years ago)

i greatly respect that reply.

― spoony G, Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:27 (twenty-one years ago)

too anxious. Wait for Jimmy D himself to chastise you!

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:27 (twenty-one years ago)

We attack other people's views, whether this is pointless or not, because somebody's taste in music (or movies or whatever) tells us something about their wider philosophy. I don't dislike critics who like different bands to me, I dislike critics who provide incoherent or banal reasons for their opinions.

Like yourself, spoony.

― noodle vague (noodle vague), Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:27 (twenty-one years ago)

miccio, you are a hack. daddino, i respect you.

― spoony G, Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:28 (twenty-one years ago)

noodle, that's just plain silly. liking music by celine dion or the boredoms doesn't necessarily speak to a wider philosophy ... maybe they're just good songs.

― spoony G, Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Liking something because it's a good song is a philosophy, just like liking something because it's authentic or knowing or intelligent or dumb or...you get the idea. Somebody who likes Celine Dion and makes an interesting case, that's one thing. Somebody who likes Celine Dion because she's like, a diva, who's sold, like, squillions of albums, that's another. If you see what I mean.

― noodle vague (noodle vague), Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:33 (twenty-one years ago)

there's no reason or need to "make an interesting case" about music -- if you like it, you like it, and you don't need to justify it to anyone else.

― spoony G, Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:35 (twenty-one years ago)

spoony, DO YOU LIKE POPTONES????

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:40 (twenty-one years ago)

there's no reason or need to "make an interesting case" about music -- if you like it, you like it, and you don't need to justify it to anyone else.

But that's a music (or any other kind of) critic's JOB!

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:40 (twenty-one years ago)

But the act of justifying one's love of a piece of music, a performer, a genre, a stance, is one of the most satisfying and fun things about being a social rock fan. It's how things get pushed forward!

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:41 (twenty-one years ago)

wait, I think this revelation means Jim D IS Spoony G

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:43 (twenty-one years ago)

What M@tt & Michael said. Once you put your opinion in the public domain, it's there to be criticised. If you find that unbearable, I don't think being a critic is a good career choice.

― noodle vague (noodle vague), Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Rock Criticism of the Future:

The Only One
Special View
Epic Records
by M@tt Helgeson

I like this record, and I don't have to justify it to you or anyone else!

5/5

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:45 (twenty-one years ago)

it's funny, the difference in tone between a-hole/hack miccio and the more thoughtful/articulate daddino.

but i suppose the greater point is that the existence of the critic is a silly, useless thing.

― spoony G, Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:47 (twenty-one years ago)

exactly. rock criticism is useless. it's one person's opinion. big deal. you get PAID for that? what a scam.

― spoony G, Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:48 (twenty-one years ago)

exactly. rock criticism is useless. it's one person's opinion. big deal. you get PAID for that? what a scam.

it seems like the whole thread up to this point was just your way of getting around to saying this....

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:50 (twenty-one years ago)

more or less.

― spoony G, Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:52 (twenty-one years ago)

actually, ADRESS THE ISSUE!!!

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:53 (twenty-one years ago)

what, poptones? never heard of 'em.

anyways, i just like riling you fat geeks up, it's entertaining. i know that deep down you hate yourselves anyways.

bye!

― spoony G, Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:54 (twenty-one years ago)

HAHAHAH, YOU LIKE POPTONES!!!!!

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:56 (twenty-one years ago)

ILM needs more entertaining trolls. Or better regulars dressed as trolls anyway.

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:58 (twenty-one years ago)

SPOONY, DO YOU LIKE CLASSIC MUSICAL ON THE TOWN, STARRING FRANK SINATRA, GENE KELLY AND JULES MUNSHIN???

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Thursday, 12 August 2004 21:59 (twenty-one years ago)

scott seward = fat hack

― spoony G, Thursday, 12 August 2004 22:00 (twenty-one years ago)

gene kelly sure could dance.

that is all.

― spoony G, Thursday, 12 August 2004 22:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Man, you have no idea. I just ate 4 slices of pizza and i am feeling mighty bloated.

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 12 August 2004 22:01 (twenty-one years ago)

I just hope I left enough room for a bottle of wine!

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 12 August 2004 22:02 (twenty-one years ago)

I've got a Jack's frozen pizza for when I get home! I'm going to rent Kill Bill Vol 2 tonight! GO PIZZA!

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 12 August 2004 22:02 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm sure your rectum can accomodate it.

― spoony G, Thursday, 12 August 2004 22:03 (twenty-one years ago)

wrt my rectum: Kill Bill DVD or the pizza?

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 12 August 2004 22:05 (twenty-one years ago)

But what about Jules Munshin?? It was his biggest part, you know, in an illustrious career highlighted by such tv appearences as "Maybe Love Will Save My Apartment House" and the unforgettable part of Monsieur Piastillio in the 1967 smash "Monkeys, Go Home"!!!

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Thursday, 12 August 2004 22:06 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm having pizza while watching Kill Bill vol. 2 later tonight myself!

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 12 August 2004 22:09 (twenty-one years ago)

not you, m@tt -- seward. you are nothing.

― spoony G, Thursday, 12 August 2004 22:11 (twenty-one years ago)

ok i have to go shoot up. see you assclowns later.

― spoony G, Thursday, 12 August 2004 22:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Hey, wait, come back I've got something else...zzzzzzzz

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 12 August 2004 22:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Please God let him be Nick Hornby.

― noodle vague (noodle vague), Thursday, 12 August 2004 22:13 (twenty-one years ago)

I think I'n gonna watch Ginger Snaps 2 tonight. I hope it is at least half as good as Ginger Snaps.

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 12 August 2004 22:14 (twenty-one years ago)

noodle vague's prayer seconded

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 12 August 2004 22:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Let's assume it's him. Who/how would that hurt?

― Masked Gazza, Thursday, 12 August 2004 22:55 (twenty-one years ago)

for the record: this spoony g character is not related to any other occasional ILM poster who uses an old school rapper's name as a tag.

― jimmie spicer, Thursday, 12 August 2004 23:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh, I'd like to believe that.

― Naomi Peterson (epicharmus), Thursday, 12 August 2004 23:14 (twenty-one years ago)

(Sorry, lame joke, that.)

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Thursday, 12 August 2004 23:15 (twenty-one years ago)

I think I'n gonna watch Ginger Snaps 2 tonight. I hope it is at least half as good as Ginger Snaps.

There's a sequel? Is it about menopause?

― savetherobot, Thursday, 12 August 2004 23:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Yes, there is a sequel. And I heard that there is a 3rd on the way.

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 12 August 2004 23:29 (twenty-one years ago)

The life of a wit is a warfare on earth.

― Alexander Pope, Friday, 13 August 2004 00:14 (twenty-one years ago)

The Dunciad was written about critics like Nick Hornby.
If Pope was alive today he would flay him alive

― de, Friday, 13 August 2004 00:34 (twenty-one years ago)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think I'n gonna watch Ginger Snaps 2 tonight. I hope it is at least half as good as Ginger Snaps.

-- scott seward (skotro...) (webmail), August 12th, 2004 6:14 PM. (scott seward) (later) (link)

it has a "2" after it right? so it must be twice as good!

― |a|m|t|r|s|t| (amateurist), Friday, 13 August 2004 00:39 (twenty-one years ago)

I actually ended up watching this kinda bad catherine keener/james legros/dermot mulroney/jake gyllenhal(sp?) movie on HBO for some reason. It's still on but it's putting me to sleep. I did get to see Screech and Horshack duke it out on celebrity boxing though! Screech was making mincemeat out of the sweathog. But the sweathog is almost 50 and a lot smaller. It was kinda sad. Horshack had dyed blond hair.

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 13 August 2004 00:53 (twenty-one years ago)

jesus, I thought Spoony had a pretty valid question/point, but you guys had to go and stonewall him until everyone got catty.

― Al (sitcom), Friday, 13 August 2004 01:11 (twenty-one years ago)

The answer to his question is so simple: rock critics attack other rock critics because most rock critics are sloppy and stupid and they need to be attacked. And because critics of all shades and stripes have been attacking each other's ideas since the dawn of time. it's healthy. And for the most part, hypothetical. Not a lot of blood is drawn. Anymore anyway, cuz most people write in a vaccuum and a world away from their peers. Plus, its fun.

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 13 August 2004 01:35 (twenty-one years ago)

But then I don't really have too many problems with any rock critic. If they suck I just don't read them.

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 13 August 2004 01:37 (twenty-one years ago)

that boxing match sounds more promising than listening to records by the band Sweathog.

― Monetizing Eyeballs (diamond), Friday, 13 August 2004 01:38 (twenty-one years ago)

I've never heard Sweathog.

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 13 August 2004 01:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh, and for the record, I don't count Hornby as a rock critic. He's a novelist who writes crit. And I like reading him when he's talking about books, but I not only think that his music writing is awful, I think it is actually DAMAGING and doesn't deserve the wide audience that it gets cuz it perpetuates too many moldy stereotypes for me to list on this thread. Can't wait for the High Fidelity musical to hit Broadway though.

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 13 August 2004 01:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh yeah, reason #5 or #6, critics attack other critics cuz if it came down to a physical altercation it might be the one fight they could actually win.

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 13 August 2004 01:46 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah if you're lucky enough to be the fat bitter one, and the other guy is the scrawny, emaciated malcontent. unless the latter has a gun.

― Gear! (Gear!), Friday, 13 August 2004 01:48 (twenty-one years ago)

But the fat guy will get tired real fast and a need a nutterbutter to keep up.

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 13 August 2004 01:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Plus, you should never underestimate a skinny malcontent's rage.

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 13 August 2004 01:50 (twenty-one years ago)

those skinny fuckers get tired just kneading dough, imagine if the dough was 6ft tall and started punching back. I think it would be a draw.

― Gear! (Gear!), Friday, 13 August 2004 01:55 (twenty-one years ago)

You might have a point. Have you ever seen Rob Sheffield? He's like 8 feet tall.

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 13 August 2004 01:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Plus, Chuck Eddy was in the army. He knows how to use a bayonet!

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 13 August 2004 01:58 (twenty-one years ago)

http://users.rcn.com/rschrade/chuck.jpg

― Monetizing Eyeballs (diamond), Friday, 13 August 2004 02:00 (twenty-one years ago)

See, he's a wild man!

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 13 August 2004 02:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Is that a poetry slam?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 13 August 2004 02:03 (twenty-one years ago)

It's his blank verse L'Trimm elegy.

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 13 August 2004 02:11 (twenty-one years ago)

1. i'm back

2. seward, you are a pompous fool -- you really should count yourself among the critics who are sloppy and stupid. i bet you hate frat guys, but you happily consider yourself in the upper echelon of the (c)rock-crit greek system. where's your paddle?

― spoony G, Friday, 13 August 2004 03:00 (twenty-one years ago)

We attack other people's views, whether this is pointless or not, because somebody's taste in music (or movies or whatever) tells us something about their wider philosophy.

This is true. More broadly, I'd say critics attack critics like physicists attack physicists and supermodels attack supermodels (I'm guessing on that one, I don't know any supermodels) -- we're all gunslingers at heart. Even the nicest, most easygoing among us have egos, and a built-in human awareness of hierarchies and status, and we test each other (each other's ideas, or physical strength, or ability to down consecutive shots of tequila) by fighting and competition. Competition between music critics seems pathetic, I guess, if you're someone who likes music criticism itself is pathetic. But if you like music criticism, or value criticism in general, then competition among critics is as worthwhile a pursuit as competition among basketball players or novelists or software engineers -- it helps separate the shit from the shine and brings new or interesting ideas to the fore.

― spittle (spittle), Friday, 13 August 2004 03:03 (twenty-one years ago)

("somone who thinks music criticism itself is pathetic", that should say)

― spittle (spittle), Friday, 13 August 2004 03:04 (twenty-one years ago)

"you really should count yourself among the critics who are sloppy and stupid."

Oh, but I do! And then some. And I'm only part-time. Not a lifer or anything like a lifer. I try really hard and I know how hard it is to get it right/write.

"i bet you hate frat guys"

I kinda do hate frat guys, except when they get drunk and sing louie louie and "teenagewasteland" really loud.

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 13 August 2004 03:20 (twenty-one years ago)

But really spoony, you should be thanking me for keeping this boring-ass sub-troll-action thread alive for you to come back to. It was dying fast.

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 13 August 2004 03:22 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.toothpastefordinner.com/031603/fat-hamster.gif

― Gear! (Gear!), Friday, 13 August 2004 03:28 (twenty-one years ago)

i don't think rock critics attacked each other nearly so much before blogging took off. i think the blurring of the line between professional and informal criticism (with many critics participating in both) has something to do with this.

i am tired of ad hominem attacks on nick hornby or whoever. it always seems as if there is often an inverse relationship between the amount of personal invective and the quality of the critique.

― |a|m|t|r|s|t| (amateurist), Friday, 13 August 2004 04:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Why does a dog lick its own balls?

― David Allen (David Allen), Friday, 13 August 2004 05:22 (twenty-one years ago)

exactly. rock criticism is useless. it's one person's opinion. big deal. you get PAID for that? what a scam.

actually, i'd argue that the art of rock criticism is to express that opinion in a way that makes people want to read your stuff, not toss the paper in the junk because the writer has no revelatory opinions and his arguments are expressed via boring, unremarkable cliches the author seems only too pleased with himself to deliver. that's why i'd rather read any of the posters on this thread over yourself, Spoony Gee.

― stevie (stevie), Friday, 13 August 2004 07:25 (twenty-one years ago)

A rock critic attacking other rock critics, back before blogging.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Friday, 13 August 2004 09:15 (twenty-one years ago)

No I think you'll find that's Jim DeRogatis attacking other rock critics.

Anyone who uses "pretentious" as a perjorative should have their hands smashed.

― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 13 August 2004 09:23 (twenty-one years ago)

iS THiS Thread WoRtH R3@D1nG??

― Jimmybommy JimmyK'KANG (Nick Southall), Friday, 13 August 2004 09:29 (twenty-one years ago)

I think using "pretentious" as a perjorative can be OK as a way to describe intellectual achievement reached for but not achieved, but it's all too often a dishonest way to police the imaginary boundaries between those who properly perform rock & roll and all those carpetbagger intellectuals who seek to ruin it with their rotten, contaminating ideas. It's certainly over-used, I think.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Friday, 13 August 2004 09:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Amst -- I'm not sure what you mean by "personal attacks." Hornby, in his writing, often offers up the facts of his personal life (he's an adult now, with people to take care of) as a way to criticize the concerns and interests of lots of musics he doesn't like (adults don't have time for this), so I'm not sure how anyone can critique what he says without bringing those pesonal facts into account. In fact, come to think of it, it's possible he uses them as a bulwark against serious criticism of his own ideas...I'd have to re-read his stuff again to make sure.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Friday, 13 August 2004 09:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Or, more likely, he uses his personal life as an excuse to hit people over the head with How Great Music Used To Be, i.e. When I Was 19, as opposed to How Crap Music Is Now, i.e. Now I Am 47 And Radiohead Don't Have Any Tunes Or Anything Not Like Squeeze!

Then when people rightly have a go at him for doing so, he/his apologists can indulge in predictable emotional blackmail, i.e. how can you say this don't you know he's got an autistic kid you're just jealous 'cos he earns millions and you don't etczzzzzzzz.

The challenge is when you realise you might be turning into Nick Hornby and try to fight against it. Which is the way I approach my writing.

― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 13 August 2004 10:08 (twenty-one years ago)

The anger between one critic and another is nothing, absolutely nothing compared to the rage between artist and the critic who does fuck all research. By research I mean actually reading the press release that comes with the CD. Or anything. Anything would do.

I'm involved in two acts, both of which are solo artists. One especially has been referred to as a band more times than not. Photo's of people not even in the band have been used in the press.

What irks me is a review I've seen of my EP. It refers to me being a 3-piece band. True, the live sets are done as a 3-piece band, but it clearly states several times on the press release that I am a Mr. Solopants. The photo on the inner sleeve is of ONE GUY.

July 2004 sees Valentine Records’ first new releases in twelve months. “The Complete Guide To Spacefolk” is writer/artist/producer/musician Porl Henty’s debut release for the label and comes in the form of a twenty-three minute introduction to the strange and wonderful world of his future imperfect alter ego Lynskey.

IS IT THAT HARD? So basically this fuckwump has tossed the press release into his bin and gone on the recollection of a gig from a while back. Pulitzertastic, St. Germain.

At least "Lynsky 0/10 fuckin atrocious" wroted by a Subliminal Crusher fan on a messageboard is well researched.

― Gribowitz (Lynskey), Friday, 13 August 2004 10:40 (twenty-one years ago)

"Why can't monsters/get along with other monsters?"

― Raymond Cummings (Raymond Cummings), Friday, 13 August 2004 10:41 (twenty-one years ago)

You know, it's so easy to hate. It's so easy to attack someone's personality rather than their ideas, so easy to tear someone down. I guess that's why I like doing these things, because they're easy and I'm a lazy bastard.

― Mark (MarkR), Friday, 13 August 2004 11:34 (twenty-one years ago)

You know, it's so easy to hate.

It's so easy to laugh too.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 13 August 2004 11:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Yes Mark, it takes strenght to be gentle and kind

xpost CURSE YOU RAGGETT!!!

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Friday, 13 August 2004 12:00 (twenty-one years ago)

Reminds me of an old Bill Hicks line: "Guy comes up to me and says, 'Y'know it uses up more energy to frown than it takes to smile?' I said to him, 'Yeah? Well it used up more energy for you to tell me that than it took for you to shut up and mind your own fucken business!'"

― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 13 August 2004 12:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Rock music is this thing where the boundaries between how one's presents oneself to the public and the ideas you put across are very fuzzy, often intentionally so: we get stars whose personality is their great idea (or one of them), and this applies to Meltzer, Bangs and Tosches (and by extension DeRo, as he sees himself springing from the noiseboys tradition) just as much as it does Madonna, Rotten and Dylan. So to um uh ENGAGE a rockperson's ideas often means engaging their personality in some way as well.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Friday, 13 August 2004 12:31 (twenty-one years ago)

critics attack other critics cuz it's a fucking locker room (also, no girls allowed) and everyone's jockeying for the same 75-word capsules in the same 15 glossy pages each month. the rock crit world can be a very depressing place for this very reason, and you'll find that the least bitter older critics are those who avoided playing the favoritism/ass-kissing/socializing game and either: a) started their own publications to say what they wanted to or b) were so fucking good that people came to them. tearing down another critic is a way to make a name for yourself, and it's a way to give yourself the illusion of having more value, thereby earning the "respect" of other critics and more glossy bylines.

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Friday, 13 August 2004 12:36 (twenty-one years ago)

and i forgot to mention the most obvious thing: critic a reads random glossy mag and sees a lackluster piece by critic b. critic a has not yet broken into random glossy's pages, and he (it's always a he) KNOWS that he can write a better piece than critic b. one option: publically criticize critic b to: a) make yourself feel better or b) try to get some critic b's bylines!

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Friday, 13 August 2004 12:41 (twenty-one years ago)

This whole thread has been a long drawn-out version of "DeRo rulez, U R all Gay".

Spoony should have been more succint.

― Leon Czolgosz (Nicole), Friday, 13 August 2004 12:41 (twenty-one years ago)

and i'm realizing that a lot of this may read like a critique of michael or sasha but it isn't at all. though sasha, i'll take yr new yorker column if you don't mind...

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Friday, 13 August 2004 12:42 (twenty-one years ago)

(xpost to Yanc3y)

Yeah but what if crit a actually IS a better writer than crit b? No point being modest about it if you want to earn a living out of it, which is, IIRC, the point of the whole exercise. It's the same in any walk of life. Young buck strides in, announces he can do better than all the rest of youse timeservers, and if he's lucky and able is given the chance to prove it.

Just because critic a says he's better than critic b doesn't mean that de facto he isn't.

― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 13 August 2004 12:44 (twenty-one years ago)

oh i agree, marcello. i absolutely do. i just find the public (if we want to call blogs public) chastizing to be a bit tasteless. and i'm not necessarily condemning these actions, i'm just trying to suss out some of the motivations behind them.

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Friday, 13 August 2004 12:47 (twenty-one years ago)

I was wondering why the heck Yancey would think any of this comes from jealousy.

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 August 2004 12:47 (twenty-one years ago)

(x-post to previous Yancey post)

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 August 2004 12:47 (twenty-one years ago)

ILX is also jealous of Carrot Top

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 August 2004 12:50 (twenty-one years ago)

anthony, where do you see jealousy in what i wrote? certainly there's jealousy if a writer who you feel is inferior is more successful than you are, and i hardly see why you should get so defensive about that.

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Friday, 13 August 2004 12:51 (twenty-one years ago)

certainly there's jealousy if a writer who you feel is inferior is more successful than you are

if your goal is to be the most successful, yes

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 August 2004 12:54 (twenty-one years ago)

yancey, did you read all the posts above that discuss the numerous reasons one could want to express dissastifaction with the works of others aside from THAT SHOULD BE ME! You don't have to think your shit smells like flowers to be offended by dog turds.

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 August 2004 12:58 (twenty-one years ago)

THIS IS SUCK A FUCKING GODAWFUL BORING THREAD. THANK YOU ~~JIM REROGATIS~~ UR SPOONY FOR PROVIDING VERBAL NYTOL.

EVEN A "WHY DO BANDS ATTACK OTHER BANDS?" THREAD WOULD BE FAR MORE EXCITING AND ACTUALLY REVELATORY.

BOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRIIIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!

― VYVYAN WYSTWYYD, Friday, 13 August 2004 12:59 (twenty-one years ago)

of course you don't have to think that. i don't disagree. but there is often much more behind criticism than a simple "i don't like it" or "i don't think this is good."

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Friday, 13 August 2004 13:01 (twenty-one years ago)

And it was so boring that you read it all the way through! Word for word! Fantastic! The tedium must have been intolerable!

(xpost)

― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 13 August 2004 13:02 (twenty-one years ago)

(xpost)

But if a writer doesn't show all of his motivations, either liminally or subliminally, how can we even begin to talk about them?

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Friday, 13 August 2004 13:04 (twenty-one years ago)

HAHA I HAD TO START SKIMMING ONCE SPOONY GOT EVEN MORE ARROGANT AND SNOTTY... BUT WAIT THATS WHAT HES CRITIZIING OTHER PEOPLE FOR! GASP I TELL YOU.. GASP. SO YEAH THIS IS A BIT TROLLING OH FUCING WELL. NEXT AMAZING DISCUSSION: POLICITIANS USE POLITICS AS MEANS TO GET BY AND FOR PROFESSIONAL SPORT. PEOPLE REWARD FRIENDS INSTEAD OF PEOPLE WHO "RILLY DIZERVE THE CREDIT, MAAAAAAAAAAAAN" AND SHOULD BE LEFT ALONE. YEAH, FUCKING GREAT EXCITING WORLD THAT IS. WOOHOO. THE WAY THE DROOL OF MY MOUTH IS HITTING THE DESK IS IN WAYS THAT THE LATEST WHITE STRIPES RECORD HAS CHANGED MY LIFE!

― VYVYAN WYSTWYYD, Friday, 13 August 2004 13:05 (twenty-one years ago)

We all have our own ways of getting through this thing called life.

― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 13 August 2004 13:09 (twenty-one years ago)

AND THE WORD LIFE MEANS FOREVER AND THATS A MIGHTY LONG TIME...

BUT..........

(SEE? LETS GET BACK TO REFERENCING GREAT POP SONGS OF OUR TIME. THATS WHAT ILM IS FOR!!! :) :) :) ME HAPPY AND NOT AS NEARLY TERMINALLY BORED NOW. EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE)

― THE IRRESISTIBLE BEVERLY HILLS SHRINK BITCH, Friday, 13 August 2004 13:12 (twenty-one years ago)

No that's not a great pop song. Worst track on the album. Like DeBarge gone epileptic.

― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 13 August 2004 13:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Critics attack critics because people fight hardest when the stakes are low.

― shookout (shookout), Friday, 13 August 2004 13:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Critics attack critics because people fight hardest when the stakes are low.

This statement may or may not be self-negating.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:00 (twenty-one years ago)

This is not a post about a pipe.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Of all critics, however, jazz writers are the most petty and bitter. It must be tough to care so much about music with an exponentially shrinking audience.

― shookout (shookout), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:07 (twenty-one years ago)

I read that as "an exponentially shrieking audience". A Boyband Writer perhaps?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:10 (twenty-one years ago)

GOOD CHARLOTTE!

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 August 2004 14:29 (twenty-one years ago)

critics enjoy pissing contests and what yancey said.

― doomie x, Friday, 13 August 2004 14:35 (twenty-one years ago)

I think critics attack other critics out of (subconscious?)feelings of insecurity about their own work. It's a way of deflecting attention from the matters at hand. Back around 94/95 this trope about other critics started appearing in rock reviews: "well, all the other critics say x about Nirvana/Pearl Jam/Hootie whoever, but I say y..."
Of course, blogs are a completely different sphere.
The corrective to all this is to write something (like a book) that gets reviewed. Having your work criticized (not ad hominem attacked) will completely re-order a critic's perceptions about the act (art?) of criticism.

― luvbug MC, Friday, 13 August 2004 14:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Why does a dog lick its own balls?
-- David Allen (Davidalle...), August 13th, 2004.

My dog doesn't do this, but then again I don't actually own a dog.

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Friday, 13 August 2004 15:58 (twenty-one years ago)

BTW, that is the most magnificent statement that I (or any human being for that matter) have ever penned.

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Friday, 13 August 2004 16:13 (twenty-one years ago)

so this thread was spawned because a critic criticized a book written by critics ostensibly doing a bad job at criticizing canonical albums in the book, according to the former critic?

you know, sometimes athletes talk shit about athletes too. how about that? the nerve.

even more shocka, sometimes people in GENERAL talk shit about other people in GENERAL, too. if there's any implied coda amongst any culture critics that make criticizing other critics taboo, quote the taboo and keep us posted please k bye.

― KILL YR CRITICKZ, Friday, 13 August 2004 16:38 (twenty-one years ago)

or maybe people should take criticism of their work for what it is and not assume its part of some nefarious bile filled impulse, perhaps maybe possibly?

― KILL YR CRITICKZ, Friday, 13 August 2004 17:00 (twenty-one years ago)

Q: How many ILMers does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A: Remain In Light is overrated!

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 13 August 2004 17:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Because those who can, do. Those who can't, beome critics.

― 57 7th (calstars), Friday, 13 August 2004 17:23 (twenty-one years ago)

zzzzz

― geeta (geeta), Friday, 13 August 2004 17:37 (twenty-one years ago)

you're just jealous of D. Keenan.

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 August 2004 19:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Critics attack because they're jealous of our freedoms.

― Gear! (Gear!), Friday, 13 August 2004 19:33 (twenty-one years ago)

"Hey, wait, come back I've got something else...zzzzzzzz"
"VERBAL NYTOL"
"zzzzz"

Sleepiest Thread Ever!!

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 13 August 2004 19:54 (twenty-one years ago)

"why do people read ilm?"

― jess, Friday, 13 August 2004 20:16 (twenty-one years ago)

i mean, did no one else draw this "parallel" for the last 666 posts?

― jess, Friday, 13 August 2004 20:17 (twenty-one years ago)

The Number of the Critic

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 13 August 2004 20:18 (twenty-one years ago)

p.s. once a year we all get together for a game of touch football, and work out our aggressions. if you really must know.

― jess, Friday, 13 August 2004 20:18 (twenty-one years ago)

hey ned, unlock the stanger/s.weekly thread, i wanted to piss on charles mau'dib or whatever his name is for a while.

― jess, Friday, 13 August 2004 20:19 (twenty-one years ago)

jess's sentiment seconded. I wanted to ask if they've really been sleeping on mix-a-lot.

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 August 2004 20:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Hi, Jess!

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 13 August 2004 20:20 (twenty-one years ago)

plus who died and made Ned Graham? Blount is one censored muhfuh

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 August 2004 20:21 (twenty-one years ago)

hi scott! i thought of you today while reading at work.

― jess, Friday, 13 August 2004 20:21 (twenty-one years ago)

We could have used Jess and Blount on this thread, then Ned coulda put it out of its misery.

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 13 August 2004 20:21 (twenty-one years ago)

separating two dogs from fucking does not equal "putting them out of their misery"

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 August 2004 20:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Depends on the phrasing and position.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 13 August 2004 20:23 (twenty-one years ago)

That's cool, Jess. I understand why you and matos and others aren't on ILM like before, but I miss some of that orneriness. Seeya, gotta go buy booze!

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 13 August 2004 20:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Anyway, I DID say I would unlock it soon and I will here in a minute, patience. It was not meant to be permanent and I posted about it on the mod board as well, comments can be made there.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 13 August 2004 20:25 (twenty-one years ago)

why aren't they on ILM like before?

― Gear! (Gear!), Friday, 13 August 2004 20:27 (twenty-one years ago)

I like my monkey knife fights.

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 August 2004 20:28 (twenty-one years ago)

http://oc4free.scalded.net/monkey_knife.jpg

― Gear! (Gear!), Friday, 13 August 2004 20:30 (twenty-one years ago)

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