how was vanilla ice portrayed by the media?

This is all the view of a middle class Englishman dabbling in hiphop, so may be totally off base.

No, he wasn't. MC Hammer was, though. Elsewhere, the two were often mentioned in the same breath.

Not initially, I don't think. Not until the full magnitude of the Vanilla Ice persona was revealed. I thought Ice Ice Baby was a hot record, for a minute.

Not until the full magnitude of the Vanilla Ice persona was revealed.
my main question is, did he ever slang dust in the m.i., or even weed, or was he a malibu's most wanted-style suburban cultural disaster?

Chuck D has said that he and the Bomb Squad wanted to work with him prior to his getting a record contract.

well it did become one of the fastest-selling singles of all time or something like that, didn't it?

Eh... he was managed by "Suge" Knight I believe.

i believe he was actually from the dallas suburbs or something.

He didn't produce it, I can't remember what the name of the guy was who did it but he was someone who DJed where he used to breakdance i think.

I wonder how much the backlash against the pop success of breakdance heavy acts like Vannila Ice and MC Hammer had to do with the abandoning of the whole elements thing in mainstream Hip-Hop.

i.e. "he's not even hip-hop" = stay in your place.

I think this is otm.

I dunno though, the actual hiphop community seemed to be kind of free of the idea of 'sell out' in those days - if you made it, you made it.

I don't think this is true. The accusations were certainly made. Interestingly, it was Chuck D. (who I think would have been held up as a model of not selling out) who more than once defended artists accused of selling. I think I even saw him do this in person once (at a free panel discussion with Chuck D., Harry Allen, and I forget who else) in reference to that guy whose name escapes my memory right now, but you know who I mean. His not so clever (but realistic enough) line was: well, if you've got a bunch of CDs you made sitting on the shevles, you better sell them out.

Am I imagining it, or was Vanilla Ice actually listed in one of those long lists of big ups on the inner sleeve of 'Nation Of Millions' or 'Fear of a Black Planet?

It's not impossible. I remember Public Enemy's liner notes (at least by that point) going out of their way to argue for a very inclusive idea of hip-hop.

This is all the view of a middle class Englishman dabbling in hiphop, so may be totally off base.

This is all the view of a middle class white American, though I was following things semi-seriously at the time.

That's the guy whose name I couldn't remember.

am I mistaken or didn't he initially DENY that he had sampled Under Pressure?

yay! I get to share one of my favorite quotes for the 80th time on ILX.

"see their song goes dee-dee-dee-diggy-dee-dee dee-dee-dee-diggy-dee-dee. Ours goes dee-dee-dee-diggy-diggy-dee-dee DEE-dee-dee-dee-diggy-dee-dee. It's totally different."

"yo, KAT! words o' wisdom...drop that zero and get with the HERO!"

what bside single did v blow up on?

impt question -- how much of the "he's not even hip-hop" thing came from people who *don't like hip-hop*? i've noted that the first to denounce "sellouts" are often the least familiar, and often the most concerned with hip-hop incursion onto their own territory -- in this case "white ppl. music". yeah

I wonder how much the backlash against the pop success of breakdance heavy acts like Vannila Ice and MC Hammer had to do with the abandoning of the whole elements thing in mainstream Hip-Hop.
the question is would you rather see breakdancers or women vibratin? in living color bridged the gap, but now we're almost there w/beyonce & video girls. lloyd banks is a bastard, and 50 manipulates his image and salability so well.

The kids on my bus knew every goddamn word immediately.

I see what yr getting at here but I'm fairly certain most hip-hop fans weren't feeling him. They may have liked the single, at least when it first came out, but there was probably some resentment at this wack, lying white boy coming out of nowhere and making more money than any black rapper up to this time, except for maybe hammer.

I think we all know who schooled him in that department:

http://www.ninjaturtles.com/oozepix/ooze26.jpg

-- s1ocki (slytus...), September 12th, 2004.
it was called "ice by ice".

Lyrics, fill in the gap -- Drop that bass and get the NINJA RAP
Feel it, if you know what I mean -- Give it up for those heroes in green
Just flowin, smooth with the power -- Kickin’ it up, hour after hour
Cause in this life there’s only one winner -- You better aim good so you can hit the center
In it to win it, with a team of four -- Ninja Turtles that you gotta adore it’s the:

Ninja, Ninja, RAP! Ninja, Ninja, RAP!
GO GO GO
Go Ninja, Go Ninja, GO; Go Ninja, Go ninja, GO!
Go Ninja, Go Ninja. GO; Go Ninja, Go ninja, GO!
GO GO GO GO

So you get the Gas Face.

Shakey, you should read Phil Dellio's mathematical proof of Milli Vanilli being better than Bob Dylan. It's better than anything I could write about them. (Though I do think they were okay. I confused them with Bobby Brown at first. And Frank Farian was a genius; he had already proved that with Boney M.)

I eagerly await your critical contortions.

"Rico Suave" did not blow me away, though.

I'd MUCH rather hear 3rd Bass than "Ice Ice Baby," and part of it is an issue of exposure, but it's also the fact that 3rd Bass released some great fucking music - fucking triple layers of darkness and the Gas face. I'm not arguing Ice was wack cuz he was popular, I'm arguing that the song just plain isn't that great.

xpost Shakey OTM

Uh, wha? Chuck said that he heard it on a rap station and that it sounded a bit like N.W.A. to him; neither of these points give Vannila Ice "legitimate hip-hop credentials", and nowhere does he state that they do.

I disagree with this idea myself, whether or not its what Chuck intended....I think that the hip-hop world, (and I don't mean "heads," I mean "the people" who listened predominantly to hip-hop,) largely resented him for blowing up, especially since he sold SO MANY copies, another example of whites benifiting from black musical developments etc.

-- manthony m1cc1o (anthonyisrigh...), September 12th, 2004.

aw, man! i totally wanted to post that!

Indeed?

This post is EXACTLY WHAT I MEAN!

In your opinion, 3rd Bass sucks more than Vanilla Ice because they accused V-Ice or Hammer of stealing a record and then looping it while doing the same thing themselves. This is apparently a legitimate criticism of 3rd Bass.

But if I come on here and accuse Vanilla Ice of being "mind-bogglingly stupid" for lying about his background, fronting like he was "street" or other such "authenticity issues" then I'm being rockist.

You can't have it both ways. You want to critique 3rd Bass, talk about their music, not some stupid "they don't like this pop song and said something rockist, therefore are awful!" shit. I think it's entirely natural for them to hate on Vanilla Ice. I wouldn't want a rock critic to take the position of authenticity, because as a critic he should be engaging with music at all levels. Look at it this way; I love R&B, but when Ice Cube says "fuck R&B" it makes me happy because its what I would EXPECT him to say, it's what I WANT to hear him say. He's no critic; he doesn't have to engage with it. He can front on it all he wants, because that's his cultural reality.

I think the Cactus Album is wonderful, not flawless but certainly a great album - production is terrific, it introduced the world to Zev Love X, and the songs are infinitely more listenable than anything on Vanilla Ice's first album (not to mention his subsequent "attempts.") I would consider "Ice Ice Baby" to be an average-to-decent song if it weren't for the fact that I'm entirely exhausted with hearing it spouted ironically by my peers, or requested by sorority sisters at parties. Because really, its an obnoxious song on the whole with not much to recommend it.

I also put on "Triple Stage Darkness" by 3rd Bass. No way does IIB beat this - the beats are catchier and funkier, the sounds more engaging and atmospheric in their layering, the sampled riffs more memorable.

It's all about the hair.

It isn't. There's a small laundry list of things that bug me about this song:

1) Ice sounds like somebody's kid brother rhyming along to a Big Daddy Kane record.

2) You can hear him almost trip up in spots where he tries to cram too many words into one line - he gets short of breath and races to catch up.

3) Every time the beat drops out for the "if there was a problem / yo, I'll solve it" prechorus, Ice's timing goes out the window. The vocal track in general has a very rough-take shakiness to it, like the producer couldn't coax out a better performance out of Ice.

4) The beat programming has dated VERY badly - it sounds like a chain-store Casio keyboard set to "Rock", and not in a good way.

5) The gangsta posturing in the lyrics, which has been better critiqued upthread.

6) There's no cutting or scratching anywhere on the record, so why the repeated references to a DJ?

If you can find it, grab a copy of "Rok One's Crazy", in which Rok One manages to both spoof and eulogize "Ice Ice Baby" - tighter delivery, better beats, better use of the Queen / Bowie sample. It's like the record Ice wanted to make all along.

I also put on "Triple Stage Darkness" by 3rd Bass. No way does IIB beat this - the beats are catchier and funkier, the sounds more engaging and atmospheric in their layering, the sampled riffs more memorable.

Yeah, 3rd Bass, no contest. I still bust out "Derelicts Of Dialect" on occasion.

I understand you think he fails splendidly, that his so called "technical shortcomings" are part of its appeal, but to me they are just a large part of what contributes to the song's dull, grating sound. Plus as someone pointed it, it's far too long.

Actually screw that they didn't sound quirky they had a lot more dimensions to their sound - you can't nail it down with one term because "The Cactus Album" is a diverse effort that goes from the Aretha sampling goofiness and racial politix of "Gas Fas" the aggressive funk of triple stage darkness.

Yes, exactly - thank you. There ARE songs that I love despite / because of technical shortcomings (Trax Records' entire back catalog to thread), but "Ice Ice Baby" isn't one of them.

But in Vanilla Ice's case, his shortcomings give the whole record the obnoxious mood of a cipher attempting to be down and failing, not splendidly, but miserably.

OTfreakin'M.

Vanilla's only legacy is that he got a bunch of white kids interested in rap, many of whom did get move on to the more "legit" (quotations intentional) stuff. I was 16 when "Ice, Ice Baby" hit, and was already well into Rakim, KRS-One, Paris, etc. by that time, so Vanilla Ice just didn't do a thing for me.

>no real lyrical hook<

>the only real hook in it is taken straight off a much better Queen/Bowie song

And "everyone else" obviously includes the millions of people who bought the damn thing, right?

I've written about the song plenty in my second book, and elsewhere. There's a lot to love about it.

No, what I'm saying is that Vanilla Ice's ability to bring rap to the mainstream in a way that hadn't been done at that time is the only thing about him that I personally find interesting. I found him laughable in his day and damn near unlistenable now.

um, Run DMC/Aerosmith, and the Beastie Boys would like a word with you...

Or rather, I found him laughable in his day and I FIND HIM damn near unlistenable now.

SCREAMING! SCREAMING FOR A PREVIEW BUTTON!!!

I think there's a problem in separating and isolating the two things here. I think "Ice Ice Baby" fails to be catchy because it lacks skills - the rap doesn't flow, the beats are too straight, there is little going on sonically to catch you aside from the bassline, which is catchy but which is taken straight off another song that had a lot more going for it. And I think "Triple Stage Darkness" is more catchy or affecting because it flows more rhythmically, both in the voice and beats and because there's more going on with the samples and how they're put together. That looped sax melody near the end is great. Maybe I should say "affecting" rather than "catchy" but I don't like virtuosity just for it's own sake - I like it as a tool that achieves something affective. I'm not an expert on rap technique so lots of people probably disagree with me (well they would even if I were an expert) - enough people liked IIB at the time! - but that's how it sounds to me.

Oh, without question!

I'm referring specifically to places like the horrible backwater town in which I grew up, which is why I said "in a way that hadn't been done before". I understand that most of Western civilization had heard at least some rap music by Vanilla Ice's inception. In places like my home town, though, rap, even in 1991 was still this somewhat new-fangled invention by them there "colored" folk.

(And I'm not exaggerating - growing up I heard "colored" as much as I heard the n-word. Canucks who love to trumpet our country's supposed lack of racism have no idea of what they're talking about.)

as usual, this is 100% grade-A balonium. Rap during Vanilla Ice's day was not dominated by humorless, "complex" artists, especially not on the charts and radio - see MC Hammer, Digital Underground, Fresh Prince, Salt n Pepa, Tone Loc, Young MC, ad nauseam.

People love Rakim because of his personality, not his "skillz". His skills INFORM his personality - his character was all about talking about how badass a rhymer he was, and he backed it up w/ techincal ability.

Shakey's list of fun rappers aside, I don't see hip-hop of this time as being "humorless and self-important" "quiet storm adult contemporary" at ALL and I think the accusation is baseless and ludicrous.

I also don't understand why you feel the need to tear down the old "hip-hop canon" (a canon that has been underappreciated by the mainstream of critical thought as it is) in order to prop up this joke of a song that - while I certainly understand why some ppl like it - is not somehow INHERENTLY better than 3rd Bass just because it embraces a fun party aesthetic, ESPECIALLY because there were much better fun party songs going on at the time (see Shakey's list).

By the way Chuck I bought yr book ("accidental evolution"...) a few days ago and just got it in the mail and am very interested in reading it.

who posted that a while back?

And I found Young MC, Tone Loc, etc, (and even more so Real Roxanne, Roxanne Shante, L'Trimm, EPMD, etc.) (and later Kris Kross, House of Pain, etc.) refreshing as well. I never said "Ice Ice Baby" was the only rap record I liked at the time. But it still wasn't too hard to notice the full-of-itself/anti-dance direction rap was heading back then (and sorry, but stuff like KRS-One and the first Tribe Called Quest album *did* feel like adult contemporary quiet storm -- the latter's fun seemed as labored to me as an indie rock band. And the whole "look at us we're sampling Lou Reed and jazz and stuff" shtick *was* about proving how complex their music was. But I've said this a zillion times already; probably no need to say it again.) Anyway:

Technique in Rap and Rock

I like this about current hip-hop (and early hip-hop) too! What I didn't like in the '90s is how much the "serious" stuff took over.

Since then - the mid 90s period on I suppose - the crate-digging thing became very much about the obscurity of the sample, a navel-gazing excersize that choked creativity and shunned the dancefloor (and subsequently lost its long-term critical cachet). But at the time, crate digging wasn't this cultish, elitist thing, it was very much about finding new sounds, producing in fresh ways, and taking advantage of new technology.

It shouldn't, and it never was, not even in 1981. In fact, I've been saying just the opposite (incl. in my description of "Ice Ice Baby.)

But Scott has a point -- if I had been listening to more Bobby Jimmy and Critters and Maggotron albums, I wouldn't have been complaining!

And Chuck, when you say you hate Rakim's legacy, what are you referring to? (Not trolling or flaming, just curious...)

Technique in Rap and Rock

Basically, I think Rakim (intentionally or uninentionally -- again, i do like his early music) helped instigate in rap a virtuosity fetish that helped ensure people arguing over "which rapper has the best skills" would wind up boring and ulitimately deadening as your average guitar magazine. and this really hurt the music a lot.

When? In 86? or in 91? and how?

At least by the time of the second BDP album (the one after Scott La-Rock.) And yeah, being a schoolmarm blowhard whose attempts at reggae managed less energy than the Fat Boys' had a lot to do with it.

As usual, Shakey ignored about 90 percent of what I wrote above. (And he should do himself a favor and look up the word "increasingly.")

xpost

Biggie though...probably one of my favorite MCs ever. Ready To Die is probably my favorite album.

And Chuck I disagree that 1. Rakim caused a focus on virtuosity and that 2. virtuosity ever dominated the dialogue for hip-hop!

I'd argue that what happened after the old-school period was a POSITIVE thing: a development of the MC as artist, not in terms of technique or some other esoteric thing, but on charisma and personality, character, style...Rakim signified the fetishism of the MC, not the fetishism of technique. There aren't columns in the source talking about how TECHNICALLY amazing a rapper is...its about who's "running things," about who's got "hip-hop on lock," which is a lot more vague and covers a lot more terrain than technical virtuosity. The most popular MC of the 90s was probably 2pac, and he's hardly the most virtuosic MC. Twista only had a hit in the hip-hop world when he worked with some interesting production from Kanye, and although his gimmick is appealling, its not what makes songs like "Overnight Celebrity."

Of course this is all discussed in the "technique in rap and rock" thread...but come on Chuck, who other than the standard ILM enemy of undie strawman dork-rap cares about rapping technique and "complexity"?!

(And incidently, El-P is a white rapper w/ virtually no rapping "technique" that I adore so my Vanilla Ice hate is entirely based on the lack of quality, not some more esoteric points)

Tantrum - what town was that!? I grew up in smalltown whitey Ontario myself and NEVER did I hear that.

Oops, no I don't think I ever got the very first Beatnuts album.

And I love Rakim with all my heart.

Okay, I think that's all i had to say.

Well, yes and no, Chuck. It hurt hip-hop only in the sense that a lot of folks stopped paying attention to the actual music, which may explain the rise of 2Pac -- fantastic writer, master of clever cadances, terrible music. But what you did get from the Rakim/KRS-One insurgence was a sensational game of "top this," which at its best gives us Wu-Tang, OutKast and Biggie (I'm beginning to think "Ready to Die" is the best hip-hop album ever) and at its worst gives us still-interesting folks like Mystikal and Bone Thugs N Harmony. So without Rakim, you don't get the best hip-hop in the canon.

That said, I love the Dirty South, too --precisely because it is so damn simple lyrically. Why fuck up an amazing backing track?

Drivel 2: Electric Boogaloo
On Sale at local bookstores Sept 24! Reserve Your Copy Today

Conversely, I daresay that Rakim had a high degree of virtuosity.

But then who's the virtuoso of the mic today? Busta? Luda?

maybe i'm not hearing you right tho. why is pac not a virtuoso? is rakim? why?

I grew up in Newfoundland, where things are still not quite in sync with the rest of the world...

And I'd say as far as current guys w/ technique, Ludacris and twista come to mind.

wtf pumpkin tattoo

h8u4lyfe

lol sub-Durst

Uh.

lolz Special Ed cover

Like all the greats-- Madonna, Bowie, Cher-- he's constantly reinventing himself and pushing his limits.

wtf at this thing

who's seen the super-excruciating arsenio hall interview? he comes across as even thicker than you'd expect:

uh

unfairly!

http://funmeme.com/images/funmeme_com/WindowsLiveWriter/FunnyWATCHFORsign_5DBB/wath-f-vanilla-ice_3.jpg

oh that is too funny.

Arsenio Hall is the one who looks like an asshole in that interview. Vanilla Ice seems like a nice guy.

the laws of physics: yo that shit is wack. Quite possibly the best movie scene of all time:

what the hell is that crap?

cut the zero get with the hero

One of many, many fine moments in Ice's feature film, Cool as Ice.

xpost

http://i34.tinypic.com/2vt8aqf.jpg

did u go?

i tested my will on the vanilla ice luge

and lost :(

Arsenio Hall is the one who looks like an asshole in that interview. Vanilla Ice seems like a nice guy.

― Pantheism F. Mohair (res), Monday, 10 November 2008 19:39 (1 month ago)

a nice, stupid guy.

his autobiography (or memoirs) was called "to the extreme" right?
― s1ocki (slutsky), Sunday, September 12, 2004 1:08 PM (4 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Not "To The Extreme Right"?
― Alba (Alba), Sunday, September 12, 2004 1:10 PM (4 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

"Magnetized by the mic while I hit my juice" is a dope-ass line. But MAJOR PROPS to "Having a Roni". The pinnacle of his career!

I'm upset that Hammer gets lumped in with him where Hammer is actually far more awesome and talented.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lm_-ilEO3g4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuaWV4kWCVU&NR=1

the "Extremely Live" album is actually quite entertaining, if you can find it. in retrospect it's kind of funny how people who weren't even born by 1991 can recite Ice Ice Baby word-for-word, given all the flack it's gotten

I

wtf pumpkin tattoo
--am0n

He was born oct 31 iirc

Not since Bryan Ferry was on that one plane that was hijacked.

So I just landed from Dubai and now there is like tons of ambulances and fire trucks and police all over the place pic.twitter.com/i9QLh6WyJW

— Vanilla Ice (@vanillaice) September 5, 2018

plane was SICK

police on the scene, u know wut I mean

Best response: "Stop. Contaminate and listen."

Second best: "Hope you were able to get word to your mother."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckNuJuO_N2w

Thought this was the hottest shit ever when I was too young to know better.

probably listened to that CD 100 times as a kid and had no idea who "Rob Van Winkle" was. I thought that was just some stupid name the Bloodhound Gang made up

Same. And I don't remember the back of the album crediting him at all, let alone as Vanilla Ice.

BLOODHOUND GANG AND ROB VAN WINKLE...TOGETHER ON THIS TRACK

oh boy, havent heard that in a v long time... they really tried to ride the beastie boys sabotage train w that one.

Good read!
https://www.theringer.com/music/2020/10/6/21494291/vanilla-ice-to-the-extreme-ice-ice-baby-history-30th-anniversary

I think that if the internet had been around to the extent it is today back in 1990, then Vanilla Ice might not have come off so badly. The entire media story, at lease in the UK, was that he was a fool, poser, etc.. But now there'd be Twitter stans (lol thanks Eminem), and he himself would be engaging much more directly with the public at large through social media. On the other hand, if Soundcloud and other music platforms been around back then, would he still have taken the compromised path to fame that he did.
He did pave the way for other white rappers in a sense, because he was so totally criticised that anyone following after him had a) a model of what not to do, and b) a very low bar to get over (don't be a complete fool like this Vanilla guy).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvp9ELDix5I

The Art Of 'Cool As Ice'

The Art Of 'Cool As Ice'🕸

W.T.F. (Wisdom, Tenacity and Focus), also known as W.T.F. or just WTF, is the sixth and, to date, most recent studio album by American rapper Robert Van Winkle, known as Vanilla Ice. Originally scheduled for a 2009 release, it was officially released as a digital download on August 30, 2011, through Radium Records, executive produced by Vanilla Ice, Nick DeTomaso and Mark Mehwald.

he could have been bob van winkle. but instead, he became vanilla ice

“yo, Bloodhound Gang and Rob Van Winkle, together on this track”

"Rob Van Winkle in the conference room!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuxNq_FIvgQ