The National 'Alligator'

Even though that low-quality stream might not give you the best impression, Alligator is very good and worth checking out.

Maybe they got better or something? Or is it still like that?

oh yes. big U2 fans. fer sure.

I don't quite see the U2 thing. To me, the National are a glammed-up version of a Drag City band.

This record is really getting under my skin. Not sure why - weird time signatures, oddball lyrics maybe. I liked their last album fine but thought something was missing. This one feels fuller and more complete. I caught their show on Friday at the Mercury Lounge as well - lots of fun, very enthusiastic crowd. Almost didn't make it as it was sold out by the time I got there, but the lead singer was standing nearby and offered to put me on their list. Got in when they released a few more tickets, but thought that was pretty damn cool!

I think I meant;

like any of the "The" bands grown older.

'cos it sounds vaguely like I'm talking about The The and I'm pretty sure I'm not talking about The The. Don't think I've ever heard The The, well I'm sure everyone's glad that one's cleared up.

Just downloaded one of the old albums and it's pretty good too so far.

OTM.

The first few listens, it bored the hell out of me... a couple tracks are beginning to grow on me, but the lyrics keep bugging me. There's a bunch of great lines ruined by cloying/stupid ones immediately following. But the odd good line is the only thing that grabs me about it. The music's kinda bland, no?

Saw them live a few months ago and that sealed the deal. Great band.

"Karen, put me in a chair, fuck me and make me a drink"

Exactly what I meant.

Is there a thread for the new one?

no, i revived a thread simply called The National a couple of days ago to a sum total of 0 replies

ILM is too busy polling these days to discuss new releases...

THIS IS WHY WE NEED A ROLLING INDIE/INDIEPOP THREAD

I wouldn't go that far.

i would like a place to list swedish indiepop acts.

Fucking start it then, Paul!

This album is OK, and Alligator was OK too, but I can't help but feel that this band get at least half the discussion time they do just because they're a low (or no) concept rock band with decent lyrics, decent tunes, decent arrangements and no overt distracting worthy twee indie signifiers or concepts getting in the way. Or, their unremarkability makes people think they're remarkable.

Agreed, Nick! This is essentially what I've been posting privately.

ouch. on both counts. i wrote for another place along thing about how they were the sound of the failure of the clinton generation. there kinda like the hold steady if they'd never got into drugs but instead killer mortages. it's a sort of defiant hopelessness fueled by nostalgia.

i'm pretty sure Alligator is if not about the 2004 american elections then certainly inspired by them. it has that mixture of wracked defeat and crushing optimism that sums up that period for me. also i read in an interview that this was the case, after i'd theorized this. so win.

That's still not concept, Paul. I don't mean... REM concept. I mean... U2 concept. Zooropa. Zoo station! The National are a default rock band.

yeh but a default rock band with an engaging vocalist and a good story to tell. ok it's not concept in that sense but i know i could sustain a 40 minute interview with stuff i've gleaned from the record. the trouble with stuff like this is, if you feel it yr gonna get it and if you don't i dunno someone may be convinced... whats the point of music writing if there's not some chance of convincing someone else. i think, why i am so loathe to start an indie thread is cos well if i like something of that sort it's sort of raw, if y know what i mean, and when someone lolz or whatever it feels like a dismissal of the yr own relationship with the music. which it isn't but in yr head...

the national fufil a purpose for me in the same way lil wayne and lindstrom serve a purpose for me atm but that purpose is so linked to important things that talking about it feels almost like i'm talking about myself rather than the music. i don't want to do that.

Wow, this post is like an Indie Spelling Style Guide. (x-post)

i have very good hand writing thou.

x-post - that's precisely why you should start that thread, Paul! It's that linkage to important things, that personal connection, and finding the route of that, that's gonna convince people more than likely.

or loads of fucking jpgs and "lol indie" shit.

So I'm downloading this motherfucker right about now. Is it good? fuckin' pitchfork liked it, BUT IS ANYTHING ON IT AS GOOD AS 'KAREN' COZ THAT'S PROBABLY THE BEST SONG OF THEIR'S I'VE HEARD I RECTION.

i wrote for another place along thing about how they were the sound of the failure of the clinton generation. there kinda like the hold steady if they'd never got into drugs but instead killer mortages. it's a sort of defiant hopelessness fueled by nostalgia.

I am not saying 'lol indie' or anything, but I admit this sounds incredibly off-putting on all fronts. But you were meaning it as positive...?

"boxer" is a great album. ned, i could see you maybe liking these guys, but i could be wrong.

Well I admit the Hold Steady aren't the best reference point for me (heresy in some corners I know, but I hold no hatred, merely a studied indifference). The Pulp comparison is more agreeable, admittedly, but 'defiant hopelessness fueled by nostalgia' is something that doesn't appeal emotionally, if you catch my drift. It's more than a little alien, especially if the whole idea is that this is a fairly lyrically driven group (then again I'm listening to Patrick Pulsinger's Dogmatic Sequences and riding waves of good beats and no words so I'm kinda biased). I'll hear something by them at some point and decide then, doubtless.

When will "Real Rock and Roll" finally croak?

the national doesn't sound anything like the hold steady, i think that's a horrible reference point. and while i think matt writes good lyrics that are pretty poignant, i think they're more interesting from a music standpoint. i think the playing and the arrangements on "boxer" are incredibly strong, and the lyrics (and matt's vocals) are just a nice add-on as they fit the moodiness. but hey, what do i know?

i'm not sure what they have to do with "real rock n' roll," either. they are a good rock band i guess, but i don't hear much similarity to anything you'd hear on the radio in the us. when i first heard "alligator," i thought they were british, not ohio dudes living in brooklyn.

I can't help but feel that this band get at least half the discussion time they do just because they're a low (or no) concept rock band with decent lyrics, decent tunes, decent arrangements and no overt distracting worthy twee indie signifiers or concepts getting in the way

you mean they're without the ordinary indie pretensions?

i think they're more interesting from a music standpoint. i think the playing and the arrangements on "boxer" are incredibly strong, and the lyrics (and matt's vocals) are just a nice add-on as they fit the moodiness. but hey, what do i know?

8080, and i liked them more when they had the chick singer, but i'll bet the vocals/lyrics are a big deal for many of the fans

that's not really the same band. no scott, no matt, no justice, no peace.

Never heard the band, but I like the idea of a National Alligator.

The Hod Steady or Pulp references are really weird. If anything, I'd compare them to a tighter, less barqoque tindersticks or from the opposite angle to a lusher Interpol.

If anyone wants to make his/her own opinion, the lp is streaming here: http://3voor12.vpro.nl/luisterpaal/

i ref'd the hold steady not cos they sound anything much like them, they don't, but that i get a similar feel from certain songs. engagingly verbose american men from small towns is all i'm getting at really.

The Pulp comparison is more agreeable, admittedly, but 'defiant hopelessness fueled by nostalgia' is something that doesn't appeal emotionally,

i would say that "defiant hopelessness" is one of, noted ned faves, disco inferno's key characteristics. though again i'm not saying they sound alike. that would be silly.

i would say it's an emo thing. you either let the dudes take you along on the emotional ride or dismiss them as slightly refined indie rock.

this band sounds like louis jagger and jon arbuckle started a band.

Review of the year?

i just like this lp because it reminds me of old American Music Club records. i have no idea what he's singing about.

if I made an album it would be the antithesis of nostalgic

not if you were workin with the arbuck

engagingly verbose american men from small towns

Waitaminnit now. Mpls/St. Paul is by no measure a "small town".

(Living in nyc four years is making me defensive...)

i dunno whan i saw them live one of the only thing the lead singer said to the audience was; "this is for all of you who grew up in the suburbs".

if I made an album it would be the antithesis of nostalgic

-- Just got offed, Tuesday, May 22, 2007 7:15 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Link

lol thatcher kid. you can be progressive and nostalgic, louis.

erm, but it wouldn't be 'progressive' in the traditional sense either. nor would it be nostalgic. i ain't no iain anderson.

Mpls/St. Paul is by no measure a "small town".

nor is columbus

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i'm interested on how "boxer" sounds to people who have listened it both on headphones and speakers.
i've only listened to it on headphones and it sounds so dense and overstuffed to me.
anybody?

It is pretty dense and overstuffed but not criminally so. I'd be the first to hammer them for that. Over-ambitious without, quite, the necessary control, sonically.

Interpol crossed with Tindersticks is about right, in terms of the music.

with the last two interpol records though they sounded like they could have been recorded in rather expansive studios.
"boxer" sounds like it was recorded in a cupboard or something.

nick i have yet to hear "boxer". "not criminally" sounds ok. does it have that nasty ring that nearly all modern rock cds have. 'cos i've been opening lots of songs in audacity recently and wow you have almost been down-playing how bad this problem is.

"Fake Empire" sounds like a faded Iron and Wine.

how?

This might be my album of the year.

nick i have yet to hear "boxer". "not criminally" sounds ok. does it have that nasty ring that nearly all modern rock cds have. 'cos i've been opening lots of songs in audacity recently and wow you have almost been down-playing how bad this problem is.

Haha, only just seen this! I've not listened to this record in a couple of weeks and I've only got a weirdly-savaged promo anyway, so I'm not fully up on 'nasty ringing'.

As for the Audacity thing, yes, I am kind of downplaying it simply because it's SO ubiquitous that if one tried to meet it fully you'd go totally spare and hang yourself in the face of an impossible task. A lot of the time, because there's so much of it, you end up over-praising stuff that's just NOT AS BAD AS KEANE (and that last Keane album fucking hell, what a hideous, hideous mess) because it's a relief, rather than because it's done really, really well.

Like, I listened to New Adventures In Hi-Fi by REM yesterday afternoon and that's flat, very flat compared to something like the Guillemots or Electrelane or 65dos, but next to Keane or U2 it's amazing. You know, Dark Side Of The Moon's pretty fucking flat and boring and even (from memory, not listened in years), it's just not corrupted sonically in terms of the sounds being destroyed. I seem to remember a Mark S thread about DSOTM being sonically boring, actually.

And I very, very rarely go off looking at waveforms (partly cos aside from Garageband, which I don't know how to use, I've got nothing that'd do it for me), just trusting my ears, really.

ha i was thinking of starting a thread about it after i spent about half an hour shocking myself with waveforms, the difference between a pavement track form 1992 and a hold steady one from last year was amazing. pavement had all sort of wobbles even though the song itself was kinda droney whilst the hold steady song which seems quite dynamic was basically just an oblong shape.

Compression can be used to make things SEEM dynamic, but the key is SEEMING; on a different, better stereo it may corrupt horribly, for instance. The main thing that's lost is space, to my mind, and a lot of people don't know how to 'hear' space in a modern context. With The Hold Steady that's not so bad, because the aesthetic is dodgy bar band in a cramped venue playing live and loud, but if the Rufus Wainwright album did that it'd be horrendous, because the aesthetic is huge orchestral swells.

Stuff without space gets close to headache territory for me often these days because even with an illusion of dyanmic there is no actual respite. But basically as long as there's some space, some dynamic, and instruments aren't totally squished and corrupted, I can deal with it to an extent (New Adventures, for example). I'd much prefer it not to be there, though.

Also I think a lot of people genuinely misunderstand 'dynamic' and think it does just mean 'full'; not the same.

Dynamic has fuckall to do w recording/treatments ever. You could prob make a good chart of how the industry's slowly worked this out and stopped bothering; it's gotten to rock now. Eased in by poppunk from whoever it was in 95 or so onwards prob. Happened to pop ages ago, but it needed a lot less actual dynamics to work well (and there was shitloads of it already, who cares). Rock, and ROCKING, y'know, it's vital. For some. Men. Homer nodding his head to imagined Grand Funk; did he know how far it'd yet to fall?

I'd identify 1994 and Definitely Maybe over poppunk in 95 (I assume you mean Green Day). The difference between Giant Steps by The Boo Radleys in 1993 and Definitely Maybe by Oasis in 1994 is startling; same label, same 'genre'. Definitely Maybe is a fulcrum. WTSMG is a peak, perhaps, a tipping point that sends the fulcrum over, but DM is the fulcrum.

xxx, I don't know that I *mean* that comparison in anyway besides that it's how it occurs to me. I could try to describe it better - both have a wistful, tired sound. "Fake Empire" sounds faded in that it doesn't sound like you're hearing the authentic performance - but rather the performance as though it's been... faded. But I really meant the comparison in that it's how the song occurs to me.

'Boxer' is still may album of the year. I never thought I'd love an indie record so much again.

Tho I'm thinking they might be the American Arab Strap.

Okay, wait a minute, wait a minute, why is it that we can't have a thread dedicated to Boxer again? Because a noob started it? Oh the horror! Lock thread! How dare that noob!

Where is the thread?

Okay, so original poster should have named the thread Boxer, but wtf is up with this shit?

The National: C or C?

This might be the most unremarkable album of the year.

Jeez, the murder of the thread starter on the link a few posts above is unsettling. It's so...efficient.
]

So, I'm finally giving a listen to the National. I was just about to say something about how weird it is that 90% of the posts above are regarding The National's lyrics (and compression of music in general, for some reason), when to me, most of the appeal comes from the arrangements and the character and melodic value of the voice itself.

Then "What are you for, now that I have hardcore?" arrived in "Cold War Fever". So as far as lyrics go, I'd say at worst they're just unnoticeable, certainly not New Order levels of cringeworthiness, and at their best, he has a talent for crafting one liners that stick in your head.

Darin, the album's like 2 years old bruv.

Also I still think Karen is an irresistible song.

Sorry - meant to say most unremarkable band of the year. Every time a band comes on Soma FM with a lead singer who sounds totally bored with himself, 9 times out of 10 it's The National.

'yawn' is certainly not applicable to the national. so the fact that 'alligator' is mostly quiet and restrained for all the right reasons makes it boring, right? very very far from it. extremely well crafted songs, much more interesting lyrically than most else coming from ny, and just very poised and solid. great collection of songs. and 'boxer' is equally good. really looking forward to seeing these guys live for the first time in, i think, january.

Darin, I know...I like my lead singers to do lots of scissor kicks and be super enthusiastic. Being thoughtful is waaay over-rated.

'Karen' is the best thing The National ever done.

still rate this higher than 'boxer', but they're sort of like companion pieces really. this one's just got the stronger songs overall.

boxer is more slickly produced but I agree with you, alligator seems just a tad tighter and better written

I don't get this, to me Boxer is infinintely superior to Alligator (which I find a bit lacking in tunes)

really? i think that alligator is better written (as akm mentioned) and also has more depth and character. it also seems better paced to my ears with some cracking songs towards the end. though i do think the splendid middle trio of 'baby, we'll be fine', 'friend of mine' and 'val jester' is where the true heart of the album lies.

I'm sorry but i feel really cheated that i live in a time where the national isn't the biggest band in the world right now.

This may change; they have a DVD in the works (making of Boxer, etc.) and are playing a boat load of festivals this summer (Glastonbury among them).

As for the better of the two "breaking them" LPs: Boxer was my gateway drug to The National, but I'd rate Alligator better, if only for the lyric, "I got two sets of headphones, I miss you like hell."

(So, Mr. Howard, the splendid middle trio of Alligator? "Friend of Mine" is my favorite/go-to The National track. Sincerity's fingerprints are all over that track.)

haha yeah, if i skip 'karen' and 'daughter of the soho rights' (two of the better cuts at the beginning) i'll head right to one of those three tracks. and 'friend of mine' is the one i've actually indulged in the most according to i-tunes.

I think Alligator has more immediately catchy tracks, and for me it was the gateway drug, but Boxer feels like a better album as a whole, though there aren't as many good singles on it ("Abel","Mr. November","Karen",etc.). Boxer's less fun, but if I feel like listening to a whole record I'd pick that one over Alligator, usually.

To have to decide between listening to a great standalone album of part-of-the-sum songs (Boxer) and a great album of standalone sum-of-the-parts songs (Alligator) - nice problem to have, innit?

Sometimes, I think that the s/t debut might be their best

I don't really think it's worth going back beyond those 2 albums. Well, the e.p. is quite good, but they're one of those bands where you can hear them go from pretty average to pretty spectaular with each release.

So the first two albums aren't really worth checking out?

Not in my opinion. They lack tunes and just sound really...generic indie with a touch of alt-country.

So the first two albums aren't really worth checking out?

I wouldn't go that far. Although I have yet to reach as far back as their debut long-player, Sad Songs For Dirty Lovers (as well as the above-mentioned Cherry Tree EP - featuring a slightly different version of "All The Wine") are quality releases that fit in well, lyrically, musically, with their later work.

Although I agree that SSFDL is more alt-country than anything since, I still wouldn't discard it if you're curious to compare The National '07 with The National '03; there are elements on it/then that make sense today, while others are gone that won't be missed all that much.

since this seems to be the National thread on ILM:

The National - The Virginia EP

"This is a documentary about The National by French filmmaker Vincent Moon, who followed the group during the creation of their acclaimed 2007 release, “Boxer”. It’s an insightful and beautiful glimpse into the band’s creative process. The DVD is packaged with a separate disc, “The Virginia EP”, which contains twelve tracks of demos, a cover, live versions, a radio session, and b-sides."

1) YOU’VE DONE IT AGAIN, VIRGINIA* (previously unreleased)

2) SANTA CLARA† (UK B-side)

3) BLANK SLATE (Uk B-side)

4) TALL SAINT (demo)
*with Sufjan Stevens / †with Marla Hansen | recorded + mixed By Peter Katis
at Tarquin Studios, Bridgeport Ct | vocals recorded by Brandon Reid in Brooklyn NY | piano recorded by Bennett Paster at Benny’s Wash ‘N Dry, Brooklyn NY

5) WITHOUT PERMISSION (unreleased cover)
Written by Caroline Martin (Copyright Control)
recorded + mixed by Oliver Straus at Mission Sound Recording, Brooklyn NY

6) FOREVER AFTER DAYS (demo)
Home recording by Aaron + Bryce Dessner, Brooklyn, NY

7) REST OF YEARS (demo)
recorded + mixed by Peter Katis at Tarquin Studios, Bridgeport, Ct
Vocals: Matt Berninger + Carin Besser | recorded at home, Brooklyn NY

8) SLOW SHOW (demo)
home recording by Aaron Dessner, Brooklyn, NY

9) LUCKY YOU (daytrotter session)
the complete session can be found at www.daytrotter.com

10) MANSION ON THE HILL (live cover)
written by Bruce Springsteen (Ascap) | recorded live at the winter garden, NYC by Ed Haber at the opening of The New York Guitar Festival, January 14, 2006

11) FAKE EMPIRE (live)

12) ABOUT TODAY (live)
recorded November 12, 2007 by Stef Van Alsenoy at Ancienne Belgique, Brussels, Belgium for Studio Brussel Radio | www.abconcerts.be
with: Marc Meeuwissen: trombone / Tom Verschooren: trombone / Jon Birdsong: cornet

Credit: Bolachas

d/l now :-)

I saw them for the first time tonight and while I've always liked them well enough they were fantastic, I mean really fantastic, live. Wow.

I kept reading these stories a few years ago about how The Nat'l were such a dynamite live band, but people would start flooding out of the venues after their opening act -- the then much buzzed-about CYHSY -- finished their set. So I'm glad they're getting the attention now, even if I thought their last album was a bit over-praised.

Yeah they were great. I enjoyed it so much more than I thought I would.

awesome drummer, btw

Karen is an amazing song still!!

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Saw this show back in May, but just came across this clip. Great song, really looking forward to the next album.

ack...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7kS87Ao3mA

I am Jesse, a newly-made fan of The National. Ask me anything.

Do you approve of this album cover for the Alligator 3xCD reissue due out later this year?

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/d0468d30b6.jpg

I approve of the concept.

Amazing what seeing a band curate and play at an ATP can do for your opinion of them. Love therm after this weekend.

http://sickmouthy.com/2012/12/12/national-motorways/

Whoa, this record is pretty good. I avoided The National like the plague for a long time, but then I heard "Pink Rabbits." Incredible song...nothing as moving as that on Alligator, but this record makes me want to dig deeper.

all the wine is a v good song imo

Recently revisited this for the first time in years. Always liked it, but it was so much more incredible than I remember it being. It's really held up.

yeah this is the good one

I like Trouble Will Find Me better... it's got better songs on it and it conjures more interesting moods. But they're two different things in my mind

The Lonesome Crowded West and The Moon & Antarctica

Perfect From Now On and Keep It Like A Secret

Mass Romantic and Electric Version

Alligator and Boxer

i'm not familiar with any of their albums really... have they made anything that comes close to "Pink Rabbits"?

"start a war" and "gospel" on boxer might qualify

i really love all of their last four records

pink rabbits is a tasty drink, I'll admit

Bloodbuzz, Ohio is more sanguine but right up there.

alligator is a fantastic record, my favorite of theirs

Bloodbuzz, Ohio is more sanguine but right up there.

― ledge

it has gin and Cointeau?

Classic band. I would put Vanderlyle Crybaby Cry up there with Pink Rabbits, maybe also Conversation 16, Slow Show, and like ten other songs. My favorite National song of all is Humiliation. Something about the time signature I think, sounds off balance in a way the album needs at that point

Pink Rabbits is indeed a standout on Trouble, great emo punches:

You didn't see me I was falling apart
I was a television version of a person with a broken heart

Closest thing melodically is perhaps Vanderlyle Crybaby Geeks but not as good a song. Demons closer lyrically.

Most of their songs are going for the same emotional effect, honestly, but regret is so universal and they do it so well it doesn't matter

these men only work one song at a time; after a whole album of murmured thirtysomething plaints I want gin and juice.

well that's why i thought cherry tree was their best release for the longest time

weirdly trouble will find me is their longest record and my favorite. could stand to lose 2-3 songs still

Yeah their music goes better with a cocktail, better yet for drinking late at night when the bar's empty and you have to wake up for work the next morning. The Mad Men Season 7 of bands

once when i was watching them live i called them "bespoke indie rock"

"hirstute melancholy"

they are incredible live, too, if it hasn't been said. drummer's a beast, Dessners do their thing, and the frontman's got just enough of the crazy in him

i'm glad it's cool to like the national again

xp yeah, much better live. recorded version of 'terrible love' is still maybe my least favorite song ever

I used to always like Alligator the best because of the twinkling guitar lines. The guitar approach mostly devolved into thumb strumming across the board by High Violet.
Not that the guitar technique is a huge thing, but it was part of my draw to them when Alligator first came out.

That being said, Boxer remains my favorite.

weirdly trouble will find me is their longest record and my favorite. could stand to lose 2-3 songs still

"Slipped" and "Fireproof" are the obvious deficients to me, like to love the rest though

"Slipped" is key imo; it marks a lighter turn that carries through most of that final stretch (it's a beautifully sequenced album).

"Fireproof" is probably the only one I could do without.

This band has suffered a little bit from at least the artificial beginnings of a backlash, but unlike Arcade Fire (who deserves it, for being insufferable and falling off, despite still being good live), the National continue to kill it, imo, both live and on records. If it's too much of a good thing, well, I suppose one can levy that as a criticism, but I've never thought any of their albums slogged or sagged. Each album has been really well crafted and pretty light on if not totally bereft of outright clunkers.

i remember liking a few songs from the record before this one too but all i can recall now is '90 mile water wall' which is nice

imo one of the few bands whose music is enhanced by a hangover

yes

This band has suffered a little bit from at least the artificial beginnings of a backlash

A few critics I respect were ripping them, but it always seemed more like they were ripping the band's image ("boring" NPR white guys) than the actual band. There weren't a lot of big, consensus indie records in 2013, so The National became the proxy for those same sentiments we see every year.

I don't think the band is infallible or anything, but for my money they seem like they closest thing indie has to a Smiths/1980s R.E.M. going right now, in terms of consistency of albums and songwriting quality. Of all the big mid-'00s indie bands, they've held up the best imo.

Honestly one of my biggest pet peeves is seeing albums that aren't actually boring dismissed as boring, just b/c they're boring to read about or whatever

Nah, Matt Berninger isn't a quarter of the front man Morrissey was. He's afraid to be as weird and offensive. There's no comparison.

imo one of the few bands whose music is enhanced by a hangover

Also drunkenness.

re: Berninger, I feel like he's getting slightly odder and more idiosyncratic with time, though it'll take another 6 LPs or so to get him to Moz levels

Berninger is a lot more introverted than Moz, probably more depressed too - at least his writing is more about depression as boredom/anxiety, Moz more using sarcasm and flamboyance in dealing with spleen.

Saw National play 2nd smallest stage at Roskilde Festival '06, fantastic show - when they returned for 2nd biggest stage (17000 capacity) in '10 I was afraid all intimacy would be lost, but it worked out great. When they played the Orange Stage (60-70000 capacity) outdoors in broad daylight in '13 I was certain they would fail. But they nailed it, won a lot of new fans.

Thought High Violet was a marked drop in quality at the time (as mentioned above the studio version of Terrible Love is... terrible) but it's grown on me, and Trouble Will Find Me was a return to great songwriting imo. There was a wildness to Matt's vocals on Sad Songs and the strumming and especially drumming on Alligator/Boxer that's not really there on the last few albs, but it makes sense that they've grown more comfortable with understatement. Very good band.

As already said, difficult to spot any real duds in their work but it might be one of these bands where I feel owning 3-4 albums is enough, no mater how good the latest one is.

I used to always like Alligator the best because of the twinkling guitar lines. The guitar approach mostly devolved into thumb strumming across the board by High Violet.

At least three twinkly guitar tracks on TWFM (Fireproof, I Need My Girl, Hard to Find), plus some twinkly piano...

I do think they stuff their albums over full of identical maudlin tracks. I forget about them for ages, then remember and get all excited to listen to an album, I enjoy the highlights but by the end I'm facepalming and ready to forget about them for another year.

I do like that they've clearly spent a ton of time arranging their songs. That could be why some find them sort of ... airless? Because the songs are pretty air-tight. As propulsive as they can be, they're practically as hermetically sealed as bugs trapped in amber.

High Violet was the one that felt fussy to me. I thought TWFM really breathed, though; it's a big, comfy chair of an album.

oh there's some duds in their work. those 'conversation 16' lyrics. so terrible.
Trouble Will Find Me to me is pretty mediocre, though it was nice to hear Berninger exploring his range a little more.
a part of me wonders if they have hit the 'Welcome To Wherever You Are' stage of their career; too talented to make anything really bad, too checked out to really swing for the fences.

the American Radiohead

I mean they definitely are the US equivalent to Radiohead - distinctive singer, distinct lyrical tone, critical fawning, persistent popularity level, relatively consistent output in terms f perceived quality, and they've even got their own Jonny in Bryce Dessner. They're much less restless, of course.

they are not very much like radiohead, though.

A friend's son just turned 14 and his voice really dropped, so she quizzed me on deeper-voiced singers he might be interested in. I recommended the usuals like Cohen and Cave, but I also recommended Alligator as something more recent. Then I realized he was only 3 when it came out, so to a 14 year old it's not exactly recent. lol