TS: GRIME vs JUNGLE/DRUM N BASS

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xpost - I guess so yeah um. I think I associated it with playing more Urban stuff in general. Not just a 'black' channel. Which is good!

God, I hate to use that word (Urban) I'm just trying to explain how it struck me as not so much a UK equivalent of MTV Base, and more just playing things (obviously wide of the indie/rock/pop radar) that were unlikely to trouble the charts just yet, but were still becoming popular. I wish there were more channels like it right now!

― fandango (fandango), Wednesday, 27 June 2001 02:53 (twenty-four years ago)

oh man...this is like asking me if i want aids or cancer.

i guess i choose grime cause it's easier to say.

― That One Guy (That One Guy), Wednesday, 27 June 2001 02:59 (twenty-four years ago)

four years pass...

to make it fair we can make it grime so far (i.e. 3 years old) vs jungle/drum n bass as it stood 3 years down the line. thats still prob not fair as different genres alter and grow at different rates but never mind. i say jungle wins. by a long way.

― lethalfizzle, Monday, 18 July 2005 11:12 (twenty years ago)

care to say why?

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Monday, 18 July 2005 11:14 (twenty years ago)

what are you, some kinda smartass?

― strng hlkngtn, Monday, 18 July 2005 11:25 (twenty years ago)

gadda no respec!

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Monday, 18 July 2005 11:29 (twenty years ago)

oh vienna

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Monday, 18 July 2005 11:31 (twenty years ago)

Also define jungle's year zero.

― Chewshabadoo (Chewshabadoo), Monday, 18 July 2005 11:38 (twenty years ago)

Jungle, by a considerable margin.

I would never pretend to know anything like as much about grime as I do about jungle/DnB, but I have never heard a grime track that hits me the same way that Mystic Stepper or Renegade Snares or The Dark Stranger or Open Your Mind did.

Maybe I just don't "get" grime, but it doesn't seem to have the same scope that jungle offered during its crazily eclectic and propulsive first few years, where the ruffest ragga cut-up tracks were played next to more melody-driven stuff. And grime just doesn't feel as funky, to these ears at least.

But I'm coming from a very junglist standpoint on this. If any of the grimeheads on ILM can recommend something to change my mind, then please do.

For me, jungle year dot, where the real crossover from hardcore to the more dubby jungle stuff was taking place = 1992.

― Bill A (Bill A), Monday, 18 July 2005 11:42 (twenty years ago)

What Bill said.

― dog latin (dog latin), Monday, 18 July 2005 11:54 (twenty years ago)

I'm gonna be biased towards Jungle due to age and attitude.

But unlike Grime, Jungle was so much more obviously distant from hip-hop and operated in quite a different way from it. For one thing you didn't get a barrage of different MCs on one track and you'd only get two or three at a night freestyling or whatever over the beats.

This isn't necess. a bad thing (for Grime) of course, but may explain why some would prefer Jungle - it felt like more of a deviation, as opposed to an emulation.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Monday, 18 July 2005 11:54 (twenty years ago)

roll deep on popworld yesterday doing heartache avenue

*pause*

jungle by a country mile

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Monday, 18 July 2005 11:55 (twenty years ago)

It could also be argued that Grime hasn't really infiltated the mainstream any more successfully than Jungle did, all in all.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Monday, 18 July 2005 11:56 (twenty years ago)

except it started at the top (number ones for so solid/oxide & neutrino) and then made its way down. unique trajectory in pop history?

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Monday, 18 July 2005 11:57 (twenty years ago)

or are we counting that as garage, i.e. doesn't really count?

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Monday, 18 July 2005 11:58 (twenty years ago)

Yeah I think of them as victories for 2-Step rather than Grime.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Monday, 18 July 2005 12:02 (twenty years ago)

I mean you might argue that '21 Seconds' is to Grime what 'Let Me Be Your Fantasy' is to Jungle. But the lineage from 2 Step to Grime seems even more blurry.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Monday, 18 July 2005 12:04 (twenty years ago)

As an aside, does grime REALLY have the deep-rooted, popular support that was there for the early rave / hardcore / jungle / dnb and through to garage / 2-step? Is this reflected in its relative failure to set the charts alight?

I know it's probably more London-centric than even UK garage was, but are the pirate stations down there as deeply into it as they were for its predecessors? It has always felt like the scene is of a limited size compared to, say, UK garage. It seems to have only a pretty minimal representation on the pirates round M/cr, although I listen to them a lot less these days...getting old and that.

― Bill A (Bill A), Monday, 18 July 2005 12:47 (twenty years ago)

You never hear any grime in Streatham. South of the river R&B pretty much rules the car stereos of the land.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Monday, 18 July 2005 12:49 (twenty years ago)

i've never seen grime discussed by my peers (including work colleagues ect) outside of ilm. trudat jungle never charted the way rave did, but there were shitloads of compilations by 1995.

― N_RQ, Monday, 18 July 2005 12:54 (twenty years ago)

I was walking between Bethnal Green and Mile End last Friday evening and I finally heard some grime from someone's bedroom window, heh

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Monday, 18 July 2005 12:59 (twenty years ago)

It's a similar story up here, Marcello - the bass tubes still reverberate predominantly to garage and R&B. I'm more likely to hear oldskool hardcore coming from a lowered Nova GTE than to hear grime, which suggests that it's probably a less widespread scene than the volume of press on it would suggest.

(x-post)

― Bill A (Bill A), Monday, 18 July 2005 12:59 (twenty years ago)

well, i dont really hear much grime in east london cars either, to be honest.

i would say grime does have 'grassroots' popularity in london, especially east london, and its mostly amongst kids or teenagers. then again, i dont know how popular it is, cos i havent done a census in the london area. but consider that a grime dvd like lord of the decks, which is meant to the flagship title in that market, sells about 3000-4000, and thats considered a big success. i think 12"s sell even less. 12"s seem to be pressed in quantities of about 500-1000 max i believe.

as far as emulation, yeah, grime is a lot closer to american hip hop now, despite the obvious diffs. it does have a sound of its own yeah, but its nowhere near as different as say, early so solid and more fire crew and pay as u go were to US hip hop. theres much more similarity. maybe thats why it hasnt taken off, cos uk hip hop, or british rap, in general just doesnt seem to get that much love from people in london/england in general. so solid and more fire were still totally garage-rooted so they had a sound that you couldnt say emulated the american hip hop artists at all, really. as MCs they didnt sound like hip hop MCs, same for the beats (which might be why they sold so much first time round, and why they bombed when they went hip hoppy 2nd time round).

anyway, despite jungle being based around hip hop breakbeats, and producers being hip hop inspired, it did something totally different from it. thats why it was so brilliant. grime artists seem to want to move towards being more 'hip hop' in general. maybe if it was more instrumental, that wouldnt be the case. its good on pirate radio though, just shit on records, mostly.

― fizzle, Monday, 18 July 2005 13:01 (twenty years ago)

the other problem with grime is that so many of the tunes arent mastered well and therefore sound shit unless you play them on pirate radio where somehow, between the station and your radio, they sound better and rawer and less sterile and less demo-like... so if you play them in a car or club, they will sound like shit!

― fizzle, Monday, 18 July 2005 13:13 (twenty years ago)

grime is a lot closer to american hip hop now, despite the obvious diffs.

To be honest the similarity lies as much in the culture of violence surrounding it as the methods employed in production terms (including the MC relay thing, presumably popularised by US hip-hop via '21 Seconds'). For example, Dizzee getting stabbed and the Lethal B/Wiley beef. That sort of thing just didn't seem half as common in the Jungle scene, tho it was just as urban and just as powerful and fanatical a response and cultural engagement for those involved.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Monday, 18 July 2005 13:32 (twenty years ago)

One of these genres only has one song!

― Adam In Real Life (nordicskilla), Monday, 18 July 2005 14:16 (twenty years ago)

*trolling*

― Adam In Real Life (nordicskilla), Monday, 18 July 2005 14:16 (twenty years ago)

the best thing about grime though is the dramatic, hilarious, often highly whimsical over intellectualisation of everything about it, even the shittest moments the genre has ever come up with. its fantastic. everyone tripping over themselves to be more ornate and romantic then the next man about it. love it.

― lethalfizzle, Monday, 18 July 2005 14:54 (twenty years ago)

Jungle is better than almost everything ever.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 18 July 2005 14:56 (twenty years ago)

dizzee, wiley, kano and most grime MCs over jungle is brilliant also.

― fizzle, Monday, 18 July 2005 14:57 (twenty years ago)

Grime seems popular enough to have it's own (satellite) TV Channel (Channel U), ok that's not all they play, and probably only the commercial end of it but still...

I'm waiting for Breakcore and Microhouse representation! Surely there must be numbers unallocated somewhere between Babestation and Man United TV??

― fandango (fandango), Monday, 18 July 2005 16:33 (twenty years ago)

If jungle had a face, who would it look like?

― Adam In Real Life (nordicskilla), Monday, 18 July 2005 16:36 (twenty years ago)

"Grime seems popular enough to have it's own (satellite) TV Channel (Channel U), ok that's not all they play, and probably only the commercial end of it but still..."

they play any black british music, really. grimes just what people associate with it now, cos channel u has been instrumental in many grime artists' success.

― um, Monday, 18 July 2005 16:38 (twenty years ago)

"If jungle had a face, who would it look like?"

General Levy haha.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 18 July 2005 16:45 (twenty years ago)

THE FACE OF JUNGLE

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40961000/jpg/_40961945_faceofboe300.jpg

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Monday, 18 July 2005 21:49 (twenty years ago)

Channel U is cool, except for the incessant ringtone adverts. It's helped that they're able to put together so many videos for the grime, rap and Urban tracks - this was something that couldn't really be done with Jungle. Even by 1996 the number of videos for jungle/dnb tracks was only around 30 by my estimate (poss. exaggerated for effect). But thanks to Channel U it seems, a lot of these grime tracks have a clip, for all the good it does them (1000 sold? but not sold in enough major outlets to enter the top 75?).

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Monday, 18 July 2005 21:52 (twenty years ago)

"the best thing about grime though is the dramatic, hilarious, often highly whimsical over intellectualisation of everything about it, even the shittest moments the genre has ever come up with. its fantastic. everyone tripping over themselves to be more ornate and romantic then the next man about it. love it."

This is off-base, not because it's not true but because most of the people who "over-intellectualise" grime (including myself) did the same for jungle, 2-step etc.

I'm resistant to the line of thinking that says some genres in particular simply don't require or merit in-depth discussion/analysis/etc. Either intellecualising is bad across the board or its not. The really painful examples of this in relation to grime would be painful no matter what music they were applied to I suspect.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Monday, 18 July 2005 22:19 (twenty years ago)

"Channel U is cool, except for the incessant ringtone adverts. It's helped that they're able to put together so many videos for the grime, rap and Urban tracks - this was something that couldn't really be done with Jungle. Even by 1996 the number of videos for jungle/dnb tracks was only around 30 by my estimate (poss. exaggerated for effect). But thanks to Channel U it seems, a lot of these grime tracks have a clip, for all the good it does them (1000 sold? but not sold in enough major outlets to enter the top 75?)."

but are any of these vids any good?! nope!

― emmeyeaye, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 10:43 (twenty years ago)

nothing wrong with in depth discussion or even over intellectualisation i dont think, except when it turns into overtly romantic fawning. grime seems an odd genre to be whimiscal and ornate and romantic about.

― fizzle, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 10:45 (twenty years ago)

indeed, they're all made for two bob and done in an afternoon (or evening, if they want that Canary Wharf at night shot, which most of them do). i'm regularly shocked by the abysmal if not complete absence of production values, but it's still cool that people are able to put videos to tracks now in order to get them heard/seen more - even if they end up selling just a couple of thousand or less.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 10:47 (twenty years ago)

grime seems an odd genre to be whimiscal and ornate and romantic about.

you may be right but why so?

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 10:48 (twenty years ago)

seems to me that grime could do with being a great deal more whimsical and ornate and romantic!

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 10:50 (twenty years ago)

i used to feel slightly bad about being more excited about shitty nu-ragga tracks made by white canadians than most grime, but now i feel it's the right impulse.

grime can be tremendously exciting, but it's complete lack of ambition is a real downer. the american press (me included) has a real way of making it seem far more happening than it is.

― strng hlkngtn, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 10:50 (twenty years ago)

also i think there are more grime fans around the world than in london. which doesn't seem right somehow.

― strng hlkngtn, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 10:51 (twenty years ago)

jungle vs UKG (from armand's "digital" remix all the way to the "run the road" comp) would be a fair and exciting fight - actually didn't we do that last week?

― vahid (vahid), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 10:54 (twenty years ago)

ha ha i still think jungle would win. (even the "underground"/"leftfield" dnb records sell as much or more than grime.)

― strng hlkngtn, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 10:55 (twenty years ago)

seems to me that grime could do with being a great deal more whimsical and ornate and romantic!

is it not fundamentally incapable of that without becoming something else or being labelled as something else? when artists renowned for being Grime lynchpins do this it's suddenly no longer Grime it seems (see the last So Solid Crew album, Dizzee and the current Rolldeep and Kano ones for the obv. examples).

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 10:55 (twenty years ago)

even the "underground"/"leftfield" dnb records sell as much or more than grime

Dillinja was almost getting into the top 40 as recently as eighteen months ago! Crazy.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 10:57 (twenty years ago)

Tho of course that's 65 lower sales generally and 35 dnb persistence and resurgence

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 10:57 (twenty years ago)

after reinvestigating for the last 18 months, nothing makes me more embarassed on ilm than to go back and witness the anti-post98 dnb spiels i would reel off inna sub-reynolds stylee. this is like a rock critic trying to escape the shadow of bangs, isn't it?

― strng hlkngtn, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 10:57 (twenty years ago)

xpost: yes but that's in a gimmick-mad country where a CGI frog is topping the charts. i would be shocked if the builder of the valve soundsystem didn't make the top 40.

― vahid (vahid), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 10:59 (twenty years ago)

well a lot of these records (dizzee excepted) consist not of grime at all but straightforward brit hip hop/r&b (the kano album is what? - 5 grime tracks out of 16, 3 of them oldies?) as if record companies don't trust grime in itself to sell (again, see "showtime," the only one of these records to go top ten, and arguably the "grimiest" of the lot).

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 10:59 (twenty years ago)

Dillinja was almost getting into the top 40 as recently as eighteen months ago! Crazy.

there was a d-bridge interview in knowledge recently where he said he had gone back into hmv and they had re-racked the drum & bass section after a long absence and my first thought was "oh dear, does grime even have a section?"

― strng hlkngtn, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 11:00 (twenty years ago)

though speaking from the standpoint of someone who works at a not-quite-indie/not-quite-mainstream US record store, we stick the handful of grime records in the rap section and probably stock about 8 dnb records total, all due to my ordering. (i dont think any of them have sold, btw, grime or dnb.)

― strng hlkngtn, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 11:03 (twenty years ago)

haha get this, at my local shop:

dizzee rascal - stocked in rap (doesn't seem like it's selling)

streets, wiley, so solid, etc - stocked in dance (also aren't selling, except the streets, which is selling so well that even the hip highschoolers who work at the coffeshop are down with it)

on the stereo when i last walked in the shop: the new dj fresh mix (dnb still selling strong in the land of xtreme sports!)

― vahid (vahid), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 11:07 (twenty years ago)

haha i wish we got to play dj fresh instead of embrace :(

― strng hlkngtn, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 11:08 (twenty years ago)

I need a Rough Guide to post 98 dnb

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 11:09 (twenty years ago)

mainstream or indie?

― strng hlkngtn, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 11:10 (twenty years ago)

one of each please ;)

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 11:13 (twenty years ago)

lemme think on it at work today and get back to you. (unless someone else gets there first.)

― strng hlkngtn, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 11:19 (twenty years ago)

"seems to me that grime could do with being a great deal more whimsical and ornate and romantic!
is it not fundamentally incapable of that without becoming something else or being labelled as something else? when artists renowned for being Grime lynchpins do this it's suddenly no longer Grime it seems (see the last So Solid Crew album, Dizzee and the current Rolldeep and Kano ones for the obv. examples)."

dizee had some lyrically whimisical tracks on his first album, and they were still grime(y). when grime artists like roll deep or kano try to do romantic songs, it comes off as vapid sugary slush - so no thank you.

― fizzle, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 11:23 (twenty years ago)

thanks strng that'd be absolutely chief egg luv

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 11:25 (twenty years ago)

"grime seems an odd genre to be whimiscal and ornate and romantic about.
you may be right but why so?"

because the genre isnt about those qualities at all. when i read bloggers talking about how some stupid kid in a dvd had 'the saddest expression in the world' and geting all dewey eyed about some pirate session where the MCs were talking about 'reaching for the tool' or whatever, it just sounds paradoxically wrong, and more than a little bit silly if i may be honest. its like liberal art critics seeing the cruddiest shit and waxing embarasingly poetic about every tiny little crevice of beauty in its every millimetre. it sounds a tad cringey.

the thing about channel u vids, well most of them, is that theyre just like grime records - no production values, abysmal quality, but full of energy and some 'raw' talent lurking in there. theyre like the vid equivalent of demo-mp3s. not sure if this is a good thing.

― fizzle, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 11:28 (twenty years ago)

mainstream

ed rush & optical - funktion
dom & roland - can't punish me
hive - ultrasonic sound (dillinja remix)
stakka & skynets - side effects VIP
bad company - planet dust
moving fusion - thunderball
danny c - the mexican
dj marky & xrs - LK remix
high contrast - return to forever
hold tight - 925
peshay - got me burning
j majik vs hatiras - spaced invader
decorum - weapon (contrax remix)
john b - blue eyeshadow
total science - nosher (baron remix)
pendulum - trail of sevens
dj fresh - temple of doom
optimus prime - amen slag
dillinja - grimey
mampi swift - rebirth

i could go on for a while ... i'm missing a nu-photek track (prob a special forces track would be best, or maybe "we got heat") ... missing other stuff too, like more vocal tracks ...

― vahid (vahid), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 11:38 (twenty years ago)

Funktion is pre 98 isn't it? it's one of the tiny few i know from that list - i know the Peshay but don't think I liked anything he did after the album (which I ended up re-discovering and liking after initial dismissal, esp. electro track 'Robotics'). Love most John B, Fresh's 'Shinobi' and a few other things...but I'm not that into the ultra harsh-step beat which just seemed to take over.

I suddenly really want to hear a clownstep remix of Medicine 8's 'Mystery Murdered'.

I don't suppose anybody makes tracks like 'Babylon' by Splash anymore do they?

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 11:45 (twenty years ago)

Andy C's essential mix from May probably doesn't make a good rough guide b/c every other track is a dub or white label, but if this is what dnb sounds like now...it's pretty good. http://www.smartshanghai.com/en/community/forumthread.php?board_id=3237

― W i l l (common_person), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 12:45 (twenty years ago)

i have SIX, yes SIX discs i have "compiled" that i will post when i get home.

― strng hlkngtn, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 15:35 (twenty years ago)

still working on the neo-ragga one, but:

Jump Up/"Darkside"

01. Ludacris - "Roll Out (Dylan Remix)"
02. Rawhill Cru - "Mo' Fire (BC UK Remix)"
03. Dillinja feat. MC Skibadee - "Twist 'Em Out"
04. DJ Fresh - "Dead Man Walking"
05. Distorted Minds - "The Warriors"
06. Ram Trilogy - "Screamer"
07. BC UK - "Snowcat"
08. Pendulum - "Vault"
09. Tech Itch feat. MC Jakes - "The Rising"
10. Mason feat. MC Armani Reign - "Ruff, Rugged, & Raw"
11. Manix - "Hardcore Junglism (Total Science Remix)"
12. Origin Unknown feat. Dynamite MC - "Hotness"

Liquid/Jazz/Samba Magical

01. DJ Marky & XRS feat. Stamina MC - "LK (Carolina Carol Bela)"
02. DJ Die - "Autumn (Commix Remix)"
03. Shy FX & T-Power - "Shake Ur Body"
04. Peshay - "Jammin"
05. DJ Fresh - "All That Jazz"
06. High Contrast - "Lovesick"
07. Funk & Flex - "Walk By Faith"
08. D-Brige - "China Blue"
09. London Elektricity feat. Robert Owens - "In My Dreams (Total Science Remix)"
10. Seba & Lenk feat. Robert Manos - "Every Man For Himself"
11. Addiction & Carilito - "Supergrass"
12. Jahiem - "Put That Woman First (Calibre Remix)"

Dub & Bass

01. Digital - "Champion Bubbler"
02. Calibre & High Contrast - "Mr. Majestik"
03. Amit - "Gatecrasher"
04. Breakage - "So Mars"
05. Digital - "Ras 78"
06. Visionary - "No. 9 Dub"
07. Equinox - "Ital Tuff Lion Head"
08. Digital - "Gateman"
09. Amit - "Motherland"
10. Juju - "Thunder"
11. Breakage - "Bring Back (Remix)"
12. Calibre - "Can't Stop This Fire"

Edits/Drumfunk

01. Fracture & Neptune - "Colemanism"
02. John B - "Broken Language (Exile Mix)"
03. Southstar & Miracle - "Omega Amen"
04. Paradox - "A Certain Sound"
05. Senses - "Darker Self"
06. Klute - "Perceptron (Fanu Remix)"
07. Fracture & Neptune - "Worm Science"
08. Seba & Paradox - "You Didn't See It, Did You?"
09. Miraculous - "Can't Hold Back"
10. Intext Systems - "Drum Track 2"
11. Equinox - "Acid Rain (Breakage Remix)"
12. 0=0 - "Soul Hunter Testifies

Weirdbeat

01. Sileni - "Twitchy Droid Leg"
02. Exile - "Cut By Plastic"
03. Squarepusher - "Venus No. 17"
04. Paradox - "I Get A Kickback"
05. Ed Rush & Optical - "Funktion"
06. Hidden Agenda - "Fish Eggs"
07. Eight Miles High - ""Flowchart
08. Something Else - "Ploosh (Morgan Packard Remix)"
09. Tundra - "Sprouts (Omni Trio Remix)"
10. Ezekiel Honig - "Love Sessions (Graphic Remix)"
11. Actual Proof - "Maybe We'll Stay (Sileni Remix)"

― strng hlkngtn, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 22:04 (twenty years ago)

jungle has aged badly. i used to love it. bought loads of it. now i can hardly bear to listen to most of it. it really is not sensible to build a genre around a single hyper-complex drum break.

whereas it surprises me how much very good grime i've accumulated solely through mp3s by now. i just feel like the vocals give it an extra key dimension. with jungle you are mostly listening to instrumentals at the end of the day. instrumentals with variations on the same drum break.

2-step was probably better than both grime and jungle though. more interesting, sexy, compelling both rhythmically and vocally.

of course i am probably an old man.

― bugged out, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 23:51 (twenty years ago)

ps intellectualizing vs. not-intellectualizing is a convenient (for both sides, depending) but misleading dichotomy. its the quality of the intellectualization. and yes, the grime intellectualizers have been doing it for years. that's the problem. i tune out of those tedious, interminable dissensus threads about two sentences into every post. heard variations on the same themes for about 10 years now.

of course i am probably an old man.

― bugged out, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 23:55 (twenty years ago)

My favourite post-98 D&B not on Jess's list:

Lexis - Criminal Elements (but heaps of other stuff too; search Branch of Knowledge, which is my favourite post-98 d&b artist album)
Teebee - Black Rain
E-Z Rollers - RS 2000 (Vocal Mix)
Cyba Space - Life (Dom & Roland Mix)
Hatiras v J. Majik - Spaced Invader
Total Science - It's Not Over
Dom & Roland - Can't Punish Me
J. Majik - Solarize (basically a chip off the "Spaced Invader" block)
Fresh & Vegus - Otto's Way (this was either late 98 or early 99 I think)
Klute - Leo 9
High Contrast - Return of Forever
Dillinja - Thugged Out Bitch
Kosheen - Hide U (you may laugh, but this was a massive massive scene tune when it was released in its original dub form (subsequently called the Decoder & Substance remix I think) and would send everyone absolutely crazy at d&b nights. Obviously overplayed to death now...)
That awesome D&B bootleg of Mel B's "I Want You Back" whose origin is unknown to me and which is now probably lost forever - I want it so badly!

I'll defer to Jess on the Inperspective/Breakage etc. stuff, but I will say that I absolutely adore the DJ Clever Troubled Waters mix (which is actually halfway between Inperspective stuff and Lexis, although funnily enough Lexis himself seems to have disappeared in the last four years or so) - it would have been in my top ten for last year had I heard it in time.

Vahid you have that J Majik 7 mix don't you? "Amen Slag" is good yeah...

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 01:27 (twenty years ago)

j. majik has just completely gone off the boil in the last couple years. (i blame that "wickaman" character he's been loafing about with.) really l.c.d. clownstep without the production nous of fresh.

― strng hlkngtn, Wednesday, 20 July 2005 01:35 (twenty years ago)

i'd probably swap out "dead man walking" for "submarines" btw.

― strng hlkngtn, Wednesday, 20 July 2005 01:36 (twenty years ago)

Nu-Ragga Jungle:

1) 45 Thieves "Release (Victor Paul Mix)"
2) Debaser "Clash Night"
3) DJ C Feat Shinehead "Billy Jungle"
4) DJ K "Kill Or Be Killed"
5) Soundmurderer "Call Da Police"
6) Capleton "Conscience a Heng Dem (Aaron Spectre Remix)"
7) 0=0 "Soda 411"
8) Demolition Man "The Children (Debaser Mix)"
9) Congo Natty Feat Michael Prophet "Your Love"
10) Jacky Murda & R Cola "Jungle Teng (Pecos Version)"

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 01:38 (twenty years ago)

"j. majik has just completely gone off the boil in the last couple years. (i blame that "wickaman" character he's been loafing about with.) really l.c.d. clownstep without the production nous of fresh."

He was always only ever accidentally great anyway, I think. "Your Sound" was ace but I can't think of any other really awesome early tunes he did, and then that later miniature rennaissance of intense french d&b seemed to be more about catching the right wave.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 01:41 (twenty years ago)

haha grime isn't looking too good all of a sudden

x-post: he talked about his earlier records being "headphone" dnb in a recent interview and i just wanted to slap him

― strng hlkngtn, Wednesday, 20 July 2005 01:44 (twenty years ago)

does digital have a full-length album? his tracks are fucking dope

― Ô¿Ô (eman), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 02:13 (twenty years ago)

http://www.discogs.com/release/73688

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 02:20 (twenty years ago)

Dub & Bass

so, is this the same style as digital's knowledge mix?

i see names i recognize ... amit, breakage, calibre, equinox, digital ... but i'm not used to seeing them together! i know what old digital sounds like (bassy, shadowy and subtle), amit is sort of source direct-ish? calibre is like nu-soul snappiness and breakage and equinox obv represent the inperspective sound.

what is the intersection of these crews all about?? is it like the ressurection of the classic steely certificate 18 sound??

― vahid (vahid), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 05:57 (twenty years ago)

Vahid I suspect Digital meets Inperspective at the other end of their sound - not steely Certificate 18 so much as a rain of breakbeats and dub feedback so thick and dense that rhythm qua rhythm is barely discernible.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 06:06 (twenty years ago)

this is probably much softer than the reality of digital's dub+bass style, but now i am imagining a strand of dnb built on the foundation of that magical two minutes of the original "logical progression" mix by LTJ bukem ... the last breaks of seba + lotek's "so long" are echoed into this single huge cosmic pulse, sounds like a thunderclap or something, except huge and soft and pillowy, like a giant falling into a cloudbank, and then photek's "rings around saturn" starts to come in, just that one super-delicate jazz breakbeat, but mastered so hazy and layered so thick that it just sizzles, and with the birdcall in the background the breaks sound like the beginning of the monsoon.

― vahid (vahid), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 06:20 (twenty years ago)

haha about 3/4ths of that is ripped off directly from a list in a recent issue of knowledge, yes. from what i can tell the connect between the tracks seems to be a.) dub basslines (though still more pulse/riff-based than actual dub) and b.) dub affects (heavy echo, reverbed voice and horn samples, trad dub sound FX). it's a very surface interpretation of "dub" (only the equinox track actually approaches any kind of disorientation/psychedelic feeling). amit always gets called "half-speed" though it's obviously running at the same speed as all other dnb; he's emphasizing different beats in each bar so it sounds like it's running at 85 as well as 170bpm. everyone is shitting themselves over it because it represents a way of dealing with the "speed issue" (distorted minds/twisted individual/wickaman/gabba'n'bass/et al) without actually dealing with the speed issue at all.

― strng hlkngtn, Wednesday, 20 July 2005 08:14 (twenty years ago)

Grime!!

Cos it's still obscure and underground where I live (NZ), whereas most people here know about jungle.

I don't actually analyse music by how much I enjoy it, just by how pretentiously underground it can make me.

― Bn1, Wednesday, 20 July 2005 08:49 (twenty years ago)

cheers strng and others for the recs - now ah'ma track 'em down...

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 09:28 (twenty years ago)

"I don't actually analyse music by how much I enjoy it, just by how pretentiously underground it can make me."

OTM!

also, bugged out it OTM above except for saying jungle has aged badly (i dont think it has, its been made less special though cos its been co-opted by everything and is everywhere in TV music, soundtracks, whatever - sadly the d&b artists didnt reinvent themselves enough which is why i dont really care for much D&B from the last five years or so).

― fizzle, Wednesday, 20 July 2005 10:05 (twenty years ago)

i wrote up some new jungle/dnb 12"s here

http://www.stylusmagazine.com/feature.php?ID=1752

― ryan kuo (ryan kuo), Thursday, 21 July 2005 18:57 (twenty years ago)

"Most ragga junglists these days are pretty content to drop a Jamaican guy over an amen cut into a thousand pieces (it doesn't seem to matter how) and call it a day."

I would actually dispute this. I mean sure some neo-ragga jungle is like that (hell plenty of 94-95 ragga jungle was like that too!), but their are plenty of original vocals and non-Amen based riddims galore on Jungle Royale, Mashit, Chopstick Dubplate and their ilk these days.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 21 July 2005 19:32 (twenty years ago)

> (hell plenty of 94-95 ragga jungle was like that too!)

Amen to that!

― Ian Christe (Ian Christe), Thursday, 21 July 2005 19:45 (twenty years ago)

their are plenty of original vocals and non-Amen based riddims galore on Jungle Royale, Mashit, Chopstick Dubplate and their ilk these days.

i'm familiar with those labels (that blurb was for a Mashit record!) but there seem to be a lot of generic tunes that hardly play with the groove (a chopped amen, some token subs, a straight vocal running thru the tune w/o any cool vocal science, timestretch etc). i feel like it has something to do with them all being like 175+ bpm. even the generic records from 94-95 had some space in them! or maybe i just haven't heard any really mediocre ones because they haven't survived.

― ryan kuo (ryan kuo), Thursday, 21 July 2005 23:14 (twenty years ago)

Most of the stuff on those labels isn't that fast (a lot of Chopstick stuff is almost languid for jungle--much closer to early-dancehall tempo) or uber-packed sounding. Give it another listen.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 21 July 2005 23:37 (twenty years ago)

I will agree they don't play much with the vocals though, but since mostof the best tracks use live vocalists it isn't too surprising.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 21 July 2005 23:39 (twenty years ago)

i should've been clear that i like those labels - Debaser's early stuff on Press Up was what got me excited about the movement (not trying to get down on ragga at all, when it's done well it's my favorite music anybody's making now)! but for every good record those labels put out, there are like two more on others that seem to fetishize the ragga-ness of the genre w/o doing much with it.

― ryan kuo (ryan kuo), Friday, 22 July 2005 00:06 (twenty years ago)

sorry - should've been clearer

― ryan kuo (ryan kuo), Friday, 22 July 2005 00:09 (twenty years ago)

ryan, i'd appreciate yr input on this thread

― vahid (vahid), Friday, 22 July 2005 00:17 (twenty years ago)

Well like I said that was what everyone complained about the first go round too (generic ragga licks, over-use of the amen, uncreative sampling, etc, haha.) It's such a simple formula that it's not surprising that a lot stuff stays with the tried and true elements esp. when those elements have such obvious pleasures to them. I was really just complaining about the "most ragga junglists" tag actually, as I think there is a pretty good ratio of creative stuff to generic stuff or whatever (or at least as much as there is any 2nd wave genre like this.)

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 22 July 2005 00:17 (twenty years ago)

Whatever happened to HUNTA-D anyway. That guy was great.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 22 July 2005 00:23 (twenty years ago)

The Rough & hastily compiled Guide to Whimsical, Ornate, Romantic Grime (album tracks excluded)

1. Dizzee - I Luv U (remix)
2. Jammer - Mystic
3. Jammer - Vice Versa
4. Roll Deep - mystery tune (I love girls, I love sex...)
5. Ruff Sqwad - Forwardish
6. XTC - Functions on the Low
7. Ruff Sqwad - Josh
8. Ruff Sqwad - We're Not Watching Dem
9. Ruff Sqwad - Your Love Feels
10. Ruff Sqwad - Gone
11. Tinchy Strider - It's Real
12. Wiley - Problems
13. Sharkie - So Many Days (This Ain't a Game)
14. Terror ft Shola Ama & Kano - So Sure
15. Wiley ft Dom P - Be Yourself
16. Dream - Get it Done
17. Dogzilla - Neverending Story
18. Breeze - Be Like This
19. Riko ft Breeze - Don't Want You Back
20. Terror Danjah ft Shola Ama - With You
21. Wiley - Baby
22. Riko - Chosen One
23. Roll Deep ft Tinchy Strider - You Were Always
24. Wiley, Breeze, Riko, J2K - Pick Yourself Up (Target remix)
25. 2pac - run da streetz (dizzee remix)
26. Ruff Sqwad - Lethal Injection
27. Wiley - lyrics from Doorway over beat from Take Time (from Creeper mixtape)

― Keith McD, Monday, 25 July 2005 05:02 (twenty years ago)

I believe that #4 was confirmed by Mr. Clark as being Dizzee Rascal Ft Jamakabi & Breeze "Win" so I don't think it is a mystery no more.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 25 July 2005 05:15 (twenty years ago)

25. 2pac - run da streetz (dizzee remix)

This is THE SHIT. Thank you for mentioning it.

― Adam In Real Life (nordicskilla), Monday, 25 July 2005 05:22 (twenty years ago)

keith fucking mcd! fer fucks sakes!

― mullygrubbr (bulbs), Monday, 25 July 2005 07:10 (twenty years ago)

the answer is jungle btw.

― mullygrubbr (bulbs), Monday, 25 July 2005 07:10 (twenty years ago)

so, yeah, as i was saying grime just doesnt really do ornate, whimsy and romanticisism all that well. i mean, the MCs are best when they keep it nice and simple, when they try and expose their feelings it all just gets a bit clumsy and yucky. same thing with that 'soul bearing' track on the new lethal b album. save it mate. stick with 'do you want it with the fire camp?!?!? NO!!!!!!' please. k, thanx.

btw, this post prompted man like silverdollarcircle to respond to it on his blog. he responded in classically silvery, ornate, romantic, emo-ish, whimsical style. (j/k!)

― fizzle, Monday, 25 July 2005 08:31 (twenty years ago)

"Your Sound" was ace but I can't think of any other really awesome early tunes he did

Needlepoint Majik! Always had a soft spot for that one. Also Organized Crime/Mermaids. He did do some serious sub-bass but he was always too much with the sci-fi FX

haha grime isn't looking too good all of a sudden

No offense, but this is one of the many syndromes I've grown to hate about dance music writing... watching genres like they're stocks

That Simon Silverdollar seems like a very nice man. It's just when he starts going on about the "nobility" of some MC or other that I recoil

― bugged out, Monday, 25 July 2005 10:42 (twenty years ago)

when they try and expose their feelings it all just gets a bit clumsy and yucky

Got some issues with emotional intimacy, then?

― bugged out, Monday, 25 July 2005 10:47 (twenty years ago)

only when it comes from the mouths of men that are as articulate and imaginative when rapping about their feelings as maxwell from big brother.

maybe people watch dance music genres like theyre stocks cos theyre all about the 'here and now' and thats what makes them exciting, the fact they dont trudge on for decades on end in the name of bollocksian tradition like rock when all the real energy and life and ambition has been sucked out of it

i mean, compare drum n bass of 2005 to 1995, theres no contest

― fizzle, Monday, 25 July 2005 11:15 (twenty years ago)

Yo Keith!!

Good list but I must admit that I dislike "Neverending Story" and Dogzilla generally.

But I love Donae'o's "Bark" - score one for whimsical!

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Monday, 25 July 2005 11:45 (twenty years ago)

only when it comes from the mouths of men that are as articulate and imaginative when rapping about their feelings as maxwell from big brother.

Ah, but inarticularcy (if that's even a word) can be so affecting. Some of the greatest grime tunes ever are on that list.

Another very tired trope! Dance music vs. rock music.

This illusion is central to dance music, but really that's all it is. Dance music as we conceive it today--ie, as a descendant of disco--is a 30-year-old tradition that really hasn't thrown up anything radical formally in at least 10 (jungle you could argue was a last gasp whose failings/eventual tedium lie in the fact that it's self-conscious radicalism made it over-invested in itself as genre).

And who cares! The Zeitgeist has little to do with what makes music good/affecting. It's not a particularly interesting/useful framework for analysis, and neither is some vague idea of the "future" in music.

― bugged out, Monday, 25 July 2005 12:06 (twenty years ago)

uk garage wasnt anything new? grime isnt/wasnt anything new? they dont sound anything like disco. anyway 'dance' isnt a genre in itself, its just a huge banner for various genres that lie under it. of course you could argue the same for rock, as im sure you will.... as for that list of grime whimsy ranking as some of the genres best, that depends on who you ask. i doubt the kids who buy grime and form its main audience will be running those tunes into the ground the same way as tracks like fwd riddim. those tracks are blips on the grime radar.

― fizzle, Monday, 25 July 2005 12:33 (twenty years ago)

"The Zeitgeist has little to do with what makes music good/affecting. It's not a particularly interesting/useful framework for analysis, and neither is some vague idea of the "future" in music."

actually, both these things are what endear grime to hipsters so dearly.

― fizzle, Monday, 25 July 2005 12:40 (twenty years ago)

Oh come on Fizzle - Roll Deep/Ruff Squad/etc. etc. regularly make these sorts of tunes, are you saying these guys don't represent "real" grime, that if it's not Lethal B shouting it's not the genuine article? This is pointlessly reductive - the choice is not between "Pow" and false hip hop and nothing in between.

x-post ha ha now you want to have it both ways!

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Monday, 25 July 2005 12:42 (twenty years ago)

Am I the only one who thinks 'Pow' is rubbish incidentally?

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Monday, 25 July 2005 12:47 (twenty years ago)

no social, you are not the only one. you may be the only one willing to admit it though!

― lethalfizzle, Monday, 25 July 2005 12:59 (twenty years ago)

"Oh come on Fizzle - Roll Deep/Ruff Squad/etc. etc. regularly make these sorts of tunes, are you saying these guys don't represent "real" grime, that if it's not Lethal B shouting it's not the genuine article?"

no no, just that like many current hip hop artists, when grime MCs try to peer inside their navels, it ends up as gushy, insipid, and altogether contrived as when someone like beanie sigel or jay-z makes something like 'song cry'. its totally false, and appears to be an insight into their vulnerability, yet really, theyre not letting any of their guard down, and its all just a ruse. theyre usually shirking all responsibilty inside these tracks, and if they are actually admiting some flaws, its worded so dully and adolescently that its like theyre reading a page from their teenage diaries. i have no use for a grime alanis morrisette or worse, meredith brookes!

― lethalfizzle, Monday, 25 July 2005 13:02 (twenty years ago)

How to respond to such mentalism?

"Song Cry" is great!

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Monday, 25 July 2005 13:20 (twenty years ago)

Grime Alanis Morissette = Lady Fury

― The Lex (The Lex), Monday, 25 July 2005 13:41 (twenty years ago)

uk garage wasnt anything new? grime isnt/wasnt anything new?

Sure, they were/are fun variants on a bunch of pre-existing forms, but no, not anything particularly novel.

actually, both these things are what endear grime to hipsters so dearly.

I know that, fuhl. That's what makes the discourse around it so annoying sometimes.

― bugged out, Monday, 25 July 2005 13:46 (twenty years ago)

not to get all schneider-ish (RIP?) but i preferred grime when it was more garagey and everyone wasnt trying to sound ridiculously stiff, dark, gloomy and the MCs werent so desperate to sound all HAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRDDDDDDDDDDD. its gone a bit stupid on that end. i prefer listening to that pay as u go 2cd set wiley and gods gift did then say, run the road. its often like cruddy amateurism taken to the max, actually no, its not even cruddy enough (sonically), its just amateurish most of the time. i dont think theyre even conscious of being amateurish so its hard to say thats its virtue, cos its just amateurish by default, which makes all the deification of these values even more LOL-worthy. grime has NO production values, or any sort of standards, really far as i can tell. its a free for all, which has its benefits, but many drawbacks. funnily enough, its here that some of the punk parallells rock crits like to pull out make the most sense. it just makes me wonder if grime will produce it's own 'post punk'. haha, oh the thought of it.

xxxpost - finney, no dis, but you love a lot of sugary pop-rap tripe, so im not surprised you like song cry. its the hip hop equivalent of a bette middler or celine dion record. its rubbish man!

anyway, im off to listen to my fave youngstar and dj wonder beats and dream of a genre where everything is as great or interesting as 'what' or 'revival'.

― fizzle, Monday, 25 July 2005 13:55 (twenty years ago)

I think you have a point about amateurism re the clumsiness of vocals by some MCs on a lot of currently popular tracks e.g. 'Countdown' - I like the novelty of that track but it's still too many cooks, too much a case of lyrics fitting around the beat too awkwardly.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Monday, 25 July 2005 14:02 (twenty years ago)

lethalfizzle i am glad you exist!

― strng hlkngtn, Monday, 25 July 2005 14:08 (twenty years ago)

grime pirate radio sessions with MCs (chopped into four minute neat sections if necessary to make this fairer)>>>>>>>>>>>>>95% of grime vocal tracks. it helps somehow that the beats are murkier on radio (they sound dirtier and not so crystal clear - odd that for a genre named grime, so many of the beats are clean as anything) and that it seems as though the MCs arent trying to make something of permanence. when they do try and make something that will 'last' (actual songs), its usually quite woeful to my ears. bizarrely this wasnt a problem for early garage rap groups like more fire and so solid for the most part. not sure why that is. its like grime favours complete and utter amateurism over the vaguest of professionalism.

― lethalfizzle, Monday, 25 July 2005 14:10 (twenty years ago)

you'll be telling us they make beats on their playstations next!

― scg, Monday, 25 July 2005 14:15 (twenty years ago)

i have been thinking about my position regarding grime MCs (as if anyone gives a fuck), and their place in the hardcore continuum (C) man like reynolds, and have to conclude that just as back in the good ol jungle and D&B days, even the MCs themselves would admit that well, while they served a strong purpose in the context they were used - as hypemen more or less, most MCs were well, kinda crappy. in this regard, with a few exceptions, im not sure much has changed. yes, grime MCs rap more hip hop-like, with full lines and dont just rap about rocking parties and what have you and exalting the DJ and trying to hype the crowd. but most of them still rap about absolutely nothing really, it all just goes in one ear and right out the other. which is cool actually, i like it, but its still totally effervescent. theyre mostly still style over substance, except they seem desperate to prove they do have substance to which i say 'why bother?!!?' stick with style if you have it, cos its kinda embarassing when youre trying to show you have more in your arsenal but you actually dont, and a shame when youre not trying to show off more of your brilliant hotwire style.

theres more space for personality now (although if you can tell half the guys doing it now apart from one another, youre a cleverer man than i), but most of these guys are still best as pirate/rave MCs, and not much else. if grime had more of a live outlet, and more of a following, this wouldnt be a prob, but as theyre trying to make it like hip hop and follow dizzee's lead into being an 'artist', it looks like its going to lead to some frustration. not everyone here IS an artist, i dont think even wiley is, truth be told. hes just a genius producer and great radio MC.

hold on, what do you mean they make beats on their playstations? is that why they sound like that? OMG WTF?!?!!! i wish this board had an edit facility.

― lethalfizzlethefizzleisback, Monday, 25 July 2005 14:24 (twenty years ago)

ha, i made someone recoil!
sorry about that...

oh, and i'm not a very nice man btw. i'm fucking horrible, ask anyone.

― simon h (simian), Monday, 25 July 2005 16:13 (twenty years ago)

http://www.humandeath.de/Repka_Megadeth_nomore.jpg

― lethalfizzle, Monday, 25 July 2005 17:35 (twenty years ago)

Am I the only one who thinks 'Pow' is rubbish incidentally?

I think it is hugely overrated.

― Adam In Real Life (nordicskilla), Monday, 25 July 2005 19:19 (twenty years ago)

Not rubbish, though.

― Adam In Real Life (nordicskilla), Monday, 25 July 2005 19:20 (twenty years ago)

Yo Tim & Gaz! How's things?

Seriously, aren't 3 quarters of Ruff Sqwad's tracks, and ALL of Target's tracks, ornate and romantic? And what's not romantic about passionate desire for fame, wealth and glory? Reynolds even called the Hot Boys Romantics, but I guess with a capital R it's a different deal, an -ism.

― Keith McD, Tuesday, 26 July 2005 02:46 (twenty years ago)

"Trim gash, big fine gash, I like that
I only bang gash, I love hitting from the back...
I hit gash hard, I like to see that batty clap"

aw, so sweet of you to say, darling!

― just kidding but y'know (kit brash), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 03:13 (twenty years ago)

"xxxpost - finney, no dis, but you love a lot of sugary pop-rap tripe, so im not surprised you like song cry. its the hip hop equivalent of a bette middler or celine dion record. its rubbish man! "

Fizzle don't undermine yourself!

Look I sympathise with a lot of what you're saying - there's a reason I tend to love all the tracks that sound like garage throwbacks (eg. the original "Hype Hype") and I still love the old MC stuff like Gods Gift on "Mic Tribute" etc. etc. And I don't really want to see grime go hip hop either. But I think it's massively mistaken to assume that it's one or the other, either proto-grime shouting over "Pow" beats or slick US hip hop homages.

Funny that Keith brought up Target here - who alongside Dizzy helped invent romantic grime with stuff like the remix of "Pick Yourself Up" (which I've now not heard for over two years tragically) - 'cos the thing that makes Aim High 2 so special to me is how it escapes that either/or trap so easily. Everything is well-produced but not slick and anonymous and the MCs are at the top of their game - meaningful but hyperactice and vibey all at once. I mentioned Donae'o's "Bark" upthread partly because it is kinda whimsical, but also because it seems to capture that secrete history of uptempo ravey grime that includes stuff like "Course Bruv" and "Dem Lots Ere Now" and "R.U.F.F.", stretching right through to stuff like "When I'm Ere".

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 11:54 (twenty years ago)

tim, what are the best grime tracks doing it for you right this minute? put me onto whats hot in grime, plz.

i agree that when its not hyper and speedy, it doesnt have to mean its hiphop, but it can still pass for uk hip hop when its like that, often. i mean, i heard that slew dem crew love song they played on logans show the other month/week, and what was great about it was that before playing it, they said its not a blatant sell out love tune, then they played it and it was some typical sappy r&b-hip hop ballad!

xxxxxxpost, when i say amateur, i dont necessarily mean amateurish sonic quality, i mean the actual musical content, the 'i have never ever ever played a keyboard in my life before this tune' feel. then again, with a tune like ruff squads anna, if i hear the instrumental, i find it kinda interesting, even in spite of this, but when its got vocals on it, i find it faintly ridiculous. maybe i was a bit hard on the idea of grime not being good at 'songs' - i mean, whats a 'song'? just cos i think half of them are crap, doesnt mean theyre not songs does it? something just seems to get lost often in the case of grime MCs between a pirate studio and a recording studio. its like that 'electricity' isnt there or something. and then even when it is, the lyrics seem like they were better as ephemeral material.

anyway, countdown riddim is hilarious.

― fizzliciousislethal, Tuesday, 26 July 2005 21:15 (twenty years ago)

I agree about "Anna" - great tune but in retrospect there was no way the MCs would be able to reign it in.

I don't tend to like many of the attempts at sappy r&b hip hop ballads either actually, mainly 'cos I do like the US ones and these sound like really subpar versions of them. Actually I'd happy to live without grime freestyling over US hip hop beats almost entirely.

In terms of new tunes I'm probably way behind a lot of other people around here cos I don't have good access to radio or mixtapes. I mean apart from Aim High 2 where I love every track except Godzilla's (which actually does slot into the actual bad stereotype of sensitive reflective grime you've constructed) probably most of the stuff I've been listening to is from last year - the Newham Generals singles, Bruza's Terra Danjah-produced singles, Fire Camp, JME, Skepta's "Private Caller 2"... I'm hoping to correct this by ordering some more mixtapes - which site do non-UK people find works well?

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 22:10 (twenty years ago)

Get Street Anthems 2. It comes with the fantastic Essentials Heating Vol 2 free.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 22:12 (twenty years ago)

im not non-uk, but ukrecordshop has really good service. independance is pricier, but ultra fast ive found too.

― fizzle, Wednesday, 27 July 2005 08:09 (twenty years ago)

Its probably worth pointing out that most of the current grime MC's started out in jungle back in day. I've seen footage of Wiley mc'ing with Skibadee in like 94 or something. But jungle beats grime anyday. I like the grime sound, but the songs aren't about anything and they're completely un-raveable and just really fucking aggressive. Listen to some of the new ragga-jungle coming in from america and canada and you'll get what im saying. Jungle's started again out their and their are some amazing new producers like 16 Armed Jack (the Jimi Hendrix Of jungle!) coming out and they've got that whole reggae soundclash dubplate culture going on. Check www.ragga-jungle.com 's download section for some new ill jungle.

― Dr. Colossus, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 14:17 (twenty years ago)

16 Armed Jack (the Jimi Hendrix Of jungle!)

does he trigger Amen loops in Reason using his teeth?

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 14:22 (twenty years ago)

ill check out that link but if those tracks just sound like ragga jungle of 94, im not sure how interested i will be.

xpost - also, does armed jack wank off his sp1200 at raves?

― fizzle, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 14:23 (twenty years ago)

What a weird comment. I like Sixteenarmedjack though ("Bust Outta Dis", "See You Smile", etc) but he's definitely not as great as Debaser or Jacky Murda IMO.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 16:20 (twenty years ago)

seven years pass...

who rembembers grime

― Hungry4Ass, Tuesday, 28 August 2012 21:18 (thirteen years ago)

dizzee rascal

― Jandek at the Disco (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 28 August 2012 21:23 (thirteen years ago)

The first two posts aren't really from 2001, are they?

― Tim F, Tuesday, 28 August 2012 21:24 (thirteen years ago)

I still listen to grime, like 2002/2003 grime. It's amazing

― Aceveda (admrl), Tuesday, 28 August 2012 23:18 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.beatport.com/track/kingmob-vip-original-mix/3470534

― the late great, Tuesday, 28 August 2012 23:27 (thirteen years ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDCtqk3nRic

― the late great, Tuesday, 28 August 2012 23:28 (thirteen years ago)

Given that the Rinse.fm livestream is essentially the only thing in my itunes right now, yes, I do remember grime. Living in the UK has acclimatised me to it a bit, and now I kind of regret sleeping on it as much as I have. Why the other night I had a dream where I was DJing and playing all this amazing grime, and then after waking up in the dream started complaining about why I can't find grime that sounds that good in waking life.

― formerly EDB (ed.b), Wednesday, 29 August 2012 08:00 (thirteen years ago)

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