TS: R.E.M.'s "Life's Rich Pageant" vs "Document"

They were a little short of material going into both of these albums, weren't they? Resorting to using two of their old songs on LRP and, as you say, the weakness of side two of Document.

And Life's Rich Pageant has "Just a Touch" on it, which rules (despite the Patti Smith homage), so it wins.

Dude, "King of Birds"!!

The proof: I didn't even have to repeat any of the tracks Alfred namechecked. Plus, is that a triangle on "Cuyahoga"?

Document doesn't suck though. I'll big-up "Disturbance At The Heron House" for badassitude, lyrical silliness, a solo that burns bright and brief, great vocal overdubs, and "Fireplace" for spinning millenial menace from Shaker simplicity.

I'd say minor-key leadfooted elegy. Until "So Fast, So Numb," their worst song.

LRP has my all-time favorite REM track - "Fall On Me." Document has my second favorite - "Welcome To The Occupation."

I viscerally hate two songs on LRP - "Hyena" and "These Days." I also hate two songs on Document - "Fireplace" and "Oddfellows Local 151."

But I like the LRP drum sound more, so LRP wins on a technicality.

there is some mythical construction wherein this album is the breaking point for early fans. but i'm not sure if it's true.

No, because Fables was so damn slow and boring. It was good that they started rocking again.

TS: "Rain On The Scarecrow" vs "I Believe"

All that said, it was Lifes that I listened to over and over this year. Although "King of Birds" is awful compelling.

green is the record that broke the spirit of a lot of "older" fans, but it's actually fantastic and they are crazy.

Mitya, Green is my favorite! (xxxpost, ;)

Also, I will fight for "End of the World as We Know It" any day of the week!

I've always loved 'Disturbance At The Heron House' .. and yes.. Oddfellows - something perverse about it.. The album has held up better than I might have expected.. I only have patience for about 12 REM songs anymore, and two or three of them are from Document, which is a pretty good record.

(xposts .. Fables .. I'll save that for another thread...)

No, no, this is totally OTM. It would be even more OTM if you could swap Monster for Out of Time.

And it's LRP 6-4 + whatever credit attaches to Underneath the Bunker. Very gratified to see so much love here for "Just a Touch" -- the one song I'd really have liked to see them play.

LRP and Document were probably my two favorite R.E.M. records in 1991, but "The One I Love" and "End of the World" haven't aged as well as some of the other hitzzzz (though the great ending of EotW sneaks it past Amanita still.) I think Murmur beats both of these.

But with time, I came to see it as what it is: a - may I say this? - tour de force of R.E.M.'s strengths. It's like a showcase of their considerable powers. "Fall on Me" (Michael's favorite, as you may know) is essence of R.E.M., with Mike Mills harmonies and jangling (I'm a rock critic!) guitars. And the rest of the songs already cited showed how R.E.M. could swing from folk to rock and back again.

So yeah, it's an odd little album. It's weird, because its perfection somehow, oddly, makes it forgotten. It seems like it's universally acclaimed, yet rarely discussed. Almost taken for granted.

But that may just be me.

it augurs a rather uneven period from which they didn't emerge until the release of Out of Time

green is better than both of these and out of time.

TS: "Rain On The Scarecrow" vs "I Believe"

"Rain on the Scarecrow" kicks just about any song's ass up, down and sideways.

I might agree with this. Actually, I think Fables WOULD HAVE been their best album if it had been produced better.

So Alfred are you saying it's only almost-great because some of the lyrics are opaque? Might have been full-on great if he'd been saying something more explicit?

I saw them do it live a couple of years ago and he was talking about how he never gets to catch his breath in the song and (goofing) fell down when it was over.

Do it sound to anyone like a different take punched in when he gets to the line "Trust in your calling?"

Lifes Rich Pageant, though I've burned out on bits of it a little, and NEVER liked What If We Give It Away, is just packed with great songs that SOUND great. No contest.

always thought it was "i believe the poles are shifting"

But yes, LRP is pretty much perfect - great songs, lots of variety, stellar lead and backing vox and a really punchy, garagey sound. No duff tracks, in comparison with the wretched 'It's the End Of The World', and the dull Fireplace and Lightnin' Hopkins. I'm not sure about Exhuming McCarthy either. I hated it at first, but now I think it's a half-written curio, perhaps not bad, but sub-standard definitely. I've always loved Welcome To The Occupation - great vocals on that, especially near the end : 'Listen To Meee, LISTEN to MEEE'.

I also think that Fables might be the best of the lot though.

It's his enunciation that's imprecise.

If you really stretch the idea, "Disturbance at the Heron House" has a subtle political message, though, even if it is (I agree) child-like (but not childish). It's somewhat of a cry against mindlessly obeying authority. And it has a nice opening riff from Peter Buck to coat the messsage.

"You're sharpening stones, walking on coals
To improve your business acumen."

and

"Vested interest united ties, landed gentry rationalize
Look who bought the myth, buy jingo, buy America"

I don't know, I think that's much more clear (and less subtle) than anything on LRP, though I like the song enough, anyway (just the sharp horn-break with the "McCarthy hearings" sound-bite is enough for me to like it).

Put a gun to my head and demand I choose one over the other, I'd probably go with LRP. That being said, Document heads into some interesting sonic territory on side two, once you pass "The One I Love." I'm thinking of "Fireplace," "Lightning Hopkins" and "Oddfellows 151" in particular. The band cooked up some new studio ideas with percussion and guitar for those, leading to a new style for them, kind of a feeback laden, Mission of Burma/Gang of Four-ish style, with maybe even some Sonic Youth moves dropped in (I'm pretty sure Peter Buck was name dropping SY in the press by 1987).

But, recently a friend gave me a dvd of an rem concert on some german show (the same show that wire dvd is from) and it was in support of fables and they played hyena and fall on me (with improvised verses), so they definitely wrote those themselves.

whoa! can anyone else substantiate this?

It's tough.

it was a secret supposedly to the public, but in athens people were like "oh yeah that guy just lives off of rem royalties because he wrote most of lifes rich pageant". and these were mutual friends saying this. i never knew him well enough to hear it from his mouth, but that's what his friends said. i remember thinking at the time it was weird that someone could just live off of songwriting royalties but now that i know more about bizzzzzzzzzzz it makes sense.

i had a friend who went to iu at the time, she told a funny story about stipe showing up at hoosier parties.

interesting. i wonder if that's all it was then.

No, because Fables was so damn slow and boring. It was good that they started rocking again.

LRP, no contest. I remember thinking at the time that, if not as mumbly as Murmur-but how could it be?- it was a bigger and better return to form.

LRP for me. Begin The Begin and These Days make politically conscious arena rock sound like a good idea. Cuyahoga was magnificent when they played it on the Up tour. I Believe is ace and Fall On Me possibly my fave REM song. The goofy stuff is great too. Anyone who doesn't like Superman is a humourless curmudgeon. I remember getting the reissue of Horses with the My Generation cover and had one of those euraka moments with the "I'm so young, I'm so goddam young" bit.

Document's a good album, but the production dates it. Still, some interesting G04 moves on there, as mentioned xpost. I'm a bit bored with The One I Love to be honest, but End Of The World is great fun (again, what sort of humourless curmudgeon do you have to be to hate this?).

LRP has infinitely better cover art too. Bill Berry's monobrow in a lo-fi collage!

So was I, for a long time, until I first listened to the live acoustic version, which was the b-side of the ITEOTWAWKI single. (You can find it on one of the "IRS Vintage Years" reissues as a bonus track - that's where I heard it). It's not radically different, but it has a strong folk-country sound which gives the song a new flavor. In a couple of interviews I've read over the years, Peter Buck as described the song as an Appalachian folk ballad, or something similar. I had no idea what he meant until I heard the b-side version.

Document had "King of Birds" and a really grand set of acoustic B-sides, but not near the record that LRP is.

Nonetheless...

YOU HAVE BEEN VINDICATED

LET'S BEGIN AGAIN

birdie in the hand

As for Docment...the second side is pretty damn weak. Only "Finest Worksong" and "Exhuming McCarthy" on the A rock/swing as much as, say, "Just A Touch."

Oh, that's too harsh. I like Side Two of Document. Fireplace and King Of Birds especially have a weird, hypnotic vibe. And, from Side One, Welcome To The Occupation, Exhuming McCarthy, and Disturbance At The Heron House are pretty powerful political screeds, for a rock band.

Worst thing about Document to me is that it's the first R.E.M. disc that really abandons their Southern Gothic rock sound. That sound wasn't too prominent on Life's Rich Pageant, but it's there. Frankly, to the extent that even small elements of that sound make it onto Document, they do so on Side Two (which is probably why it's the side I prefer on the disc).

I've embarrassed myself elsewhere on ILM repping for side 2 of Document and won't reprise that here. But I'll take side 2 over side 1 of it, and even over side 2 of LRP. The songs on side 2 of Document are still so mysterious to me, and I think their lack of straightforwardness confounds the standard account that REM was "selling out" at that time. Those songs are just as murky as those on Murmur.

billboard's preview of the new album mentions '...pageant' as a reference point. it's less than 35 minutes long too!

I've been let down by those comparisons before ("New Adventures in Hi-Fi is a throwback to the early R.E.M. sound!"). I ain't hopeful.

(And mind you, I like New Adventures a lot, but there's no comparison to their early stuff. . . .).

shorter, faster and louder is all well and good, but I dunno if recent songs would suddenly become great if they were shorter faster and louder.

i have both these albums on one CD-R now! I used to own them on cassette. Still probably would go with Document.

The second side of Document really feels "of a piece" to me in a way that no other sections of these records do (unless you count "Begin the Begin" and "These Days" as a section.)

"The insurgency began and we missed it" EERILY PROPHETIC SHOCKAH.

Have any of the songs from the new record been heard, e.g. live or leaked?

I think one is streaming on R.E.M.'s Home Page.

there was some song that someone put the youtube link on ilx it had a riff worthy of side two of New Adventures and Michael was standing sideways, reading the lyrics from a laptop. I stopped the video when I saw him visibly scrolling down.

Does he have a memory disorder? Is there a reason he's incapable of memorizing songs he's written?

He's distracted.

I began listening to live versions of a couple of the new songs on Hype Machine. Couldn't even get through them. Again, I'm not hopeful for the new disc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRVxOmu87MA

THERE it is, that desperate thing.

It's been a bad decade, please don't take a youtube.

there was a better one shot close-up where stipey looks very very clearly like he'd just got off the old white train before taking the stage but it appears to have been taken down wouldn't ya know it.

I think "Superman" is their absolute high-water mark. So Life's Rich Pageant it is.

I've been let down by those comparisons before ("New Adventures in Hi-Fi is a throwback to the early R.E.M. sound!").

Congratulations to REM on reaching the Best Album Since Blood On The Tracks stage of their career (aka winning at rock'n'roll).

Yes! Let their Dylan-esqe late stage career revival begin now.

YIKES, that new song is truly awful.

Congratulations to REM on reaching the Best Album Since Blood On The Tracks stage of their career (aka winning at rock'n'roll).

I say they've reached their "Shaquelle O'Neal 2008" stage of their career (aka anything decent we get from them at this point is a bonus).

That was true until Fables of the Mumble-Mumble; then it became clear that Mr Stipe needed either speech lessons or emergency surgery to remove the giant kudzu stuck in his throat.

It was the label. IRS figured the only thing keeping R.E.M. from mainstream success was Stipe's mumbling, so they insisted he start enunciating.

major label correct non-shockah

S'gotta be LRP - classic mid-early-late vintage material! The one thing i can add about the Document-era releases is that they finally starting putting out those live acoustic versions of tunes like "The One I Love" that exposes the seething underbellied truth of an otherwise sing-songy Top 40 hit. These proto-Unplugged tracks might reference the Dylan-esque penchant for reinterpretation, but my hindsight sees a crew running out of spunk.

Daniel Esq notes the loss of the "Southern Gothic rock sound" and while i don't necessarily identify with the terminology, the Farmer's Almanac brand of black magic that they wielded became only a waning influence after they began mainlining their sound & image. Moving to the city (if only in sprit) was certainly a measure of it's time and maybe even a fashionable construct - nonetheless, it was most certainly a world away from the backwoods shacks and headlight-lit two-tracks that inspired their inception. Too bad, tracks like "King of Birds" packs the full weight of their skill and hints at something that could have been a truly foreboding and ominous (if not completely inaccessible) force.

For whatever reason, Document is the one I listened to least of everything through Monster. I mostly know it from it just playing in the background at parties in college (I wish I had gone to better parties), even though I've had it for a long time. So Lifes Rich by a long ways.

They played something from Document on the radio today and I just kinda rolled my eyes "oh man they were so past their prime by then". Lifes Rich Pageant is still a fantastic album, but I admit the production hasn't aged very well.

I'm sure there's a couple of decent tunes on Document, at least that's the way I recall it, but I really feel like to sit through that entire record again would be a waste of my time.

I say they've reached their "Shaquelle O'Neal 2008" stage of their career (aka anything decent we get from them at this point is a bonus).

AND WE'RE TRADING O'NEAL! If only R.E.M. could be traded for something more vital, as well.

Document was always my least favorite of the classik R.E.M. albums -- it's the only one I never even bothered to buy on CD, even at the height of my high-school fandom (I just made do with the cassette) -- but I've found myself compelled to listen to it lately. It sounds oddly good to me now, fsr. (I still think there are some whiffs on side 2; I'm not into R.E.M. gettin' funk-ay, etc.)

I like it better now than I did at the peak of my R.E.M. fandom. Sure, it's frontloaded and drops in quality a bit after 'The One I Love', but I'll take things like 'Fireplace' over lesser tracks from the post-Berry albums.

I'd take any other 80s R.E.M. album over Life's Rich Pageant. Easily the "worst" of their classic run.

Yeah I don't think "LRP" has aged particularly well... Neither has "Fables," IMO (though it has a few key trax).

Fables is my go-to R.E.M. album. Far and away the best thing they ever did.

!

I've went in the other direction with Lifes Rich Pageant in that I don't feel the need to listen to it these days, but that's because I've played the shit out of it. Lifes Rich Pageant is frontloaded too, but manages to not make the drop-off as obvious. The only track that I don't have much time for on it is 'What If We Give It Away?' ('Underneath the Bunker' doesn't count!) ...

New Adventures in Hi-Fi is the best album they ever made!

While it is a very good album, no.

Yes.

IRS run

"chronic town"
fables
murmur
pageant
reckoning
document

Reckoning near the bottom? Interesting - that's probably my favourite of all the IRS albums. Chronic Town still sounds incredibly fresh to my ears too.

Surprised you guys rate Fables so highly... It sounds really uneven to me now.

30+ years later I suppose it doesn't matter so much, but I distinctly remember there being a half-baked feel at the time with 2 key tracks (Hyena and Just a Touch) regularly appearing in setlists, an instrumental, cover, etc.
doesn't really matter much now, the album coheres in a way that didn't seem as evident upon release.

probably worth noting to the comment above about how much LRP gave way to the sellout chorus: Dead Letter Office was widely loved at the time and I think part of that may have been the self-deprecating tone.

still, I'm in the vocal minority of fans that thinks Side 2 of Document is one of the weirdest, best and most pure (last?) distillations of the IRS-era band.

xp (I do think "Life and How to Live" it is one of their greatest/underappreciated tracks)

Surprised you guys rate Fables so highly... It sounds really uneven to me now.

― i’m still stanning (morrisp)

Their worst of the first decade, i.e. mushiest and least distinguished

I like Fables... a lot, but it's nowhere near my Top 5 R.E.M. albums overall.

No album that leads off with 'Feeling Gravity's Pull' can justifiably be classified as the "least distinguished" of a band's output.

still, I'm in the vocal minority of fans that thinks Side 2 of Document is one of the weirdest, best and most pure (last?) distillations of the IRS-era band

i respect what you're saying but to me green (major label debut notwithstanding) is the last stand of that band, with callbacks and everything ("i can turn you inside out" <-- "finest worksong"), and "strange" is one of my least favorite of their covers (except for the "michael's nervous and the lights are bright" update)

No album that leads off with 'Feeling Gravity's Pull' can justifiably be classified as the "least distinguished" of a band's output.

― (V) (°,,,,°) (V) (Austin)

Depends what you think of a man who sings "It's a Man Ray kind of sky" srsly

The opening line of that song is v good, tho

Depends what you think of a man who sings "It's a Man Ray kind of sky" srsly

And yet, you remembered it.

I can't remember any of the lyrics from Life's Rich Pageant.

but I'll take things like 'Fireplace' over lesser tracks

lol i will definitely be belting out "fireplace!" from here on out when listening to this album in the car.

And yet, you remembered it.

So? I remember Dubya speeches and the names of old boyfriends too.

but I'll take things like 'Fireplace' over lesser tracks

lol i will definitely be belting out "fireplace!" from here on out when listening to this album in the car.

my memory failed me and turns out i'm not funny at all and am totally wrong. i'm turning in my True Distiple card and bowing out.

Austin, gah. Fall on Me, Swan Swan Hummingbird, Superman... and nothing memorable in there, lyrically speaking? Okay.

Personally I love all these records like children; I'm not gonna be tempted to take any sides any time soon. Document, Fables, Pageant, Murmur, Reckoning: all of a piece for me and all necessary. Then a transitional mid-period. not sure whether Green or Out of Time is the correct hinge point, but Automatic is definitely mid. Then what I would classify as their late career (Up and beyond) when I lose the plot and mostly stop caring.

Yeah they're all quite rad in their own ways though I think the sonic chemistry of the Easter/Dixon records they did at Reflection (Murmur and Reckoning) was stratospheric.

I like Man Ray kind of sky Alfred...

That song was one of the ones where you knew that even if the production on their records was changing, they were still growing and getting better. They were like completely different on that tour!

turning in my True Distiple card

lol Andrew

Document" is my least fsvorite and "Pageant" my most favorite of the IRS years. But in reality my most played REM over the last decade or so is "Dead Letter Office"! Such fun, that one...

Fables is my favorite REM LP too.

"Man Ray kind of sky" may be corny, but it just sounds good and Stipe seemed to value that over anything

still, I'm in the vocal minority of fans that thinks Side 2 of Document is one of the weirdest, best and most pure (last?) distillations of the IRS-era band

idk about best/pure, but i like it a lot and it is indeed pretty weird

With hindsight I dont really understand why they needed to release an album every year?

Capitalising on momentum is one thing but not quite the same when you're short of original material

the custody battle over these albums is going to be complicated. a lot of claims out there.

i love LRP. there are plenty of lyrical moments that grab me on it, and plenty to beguile, as well. within the first few seconds of the album, he's already referencing the apostrophe-less title of the album, sort of, and cole porter's 'begin the beguine'

Austin, gah. Fall on Me, Swan Swan Hummingbird, Superman... and nothing memorable in there, lyrically speaking? Okay.

fuckin "cuyahoga" and "these days" too

when you're short of original material

not seeing it

It is remarkable how they released all those classic albums, one per year, from ‘83 – ‘88.

Sax solo on “Fireplace” is so good.

Document is a slight dip on the preceding 4 for me, and Fables is probly still my default favourite, but on the whole i think they're all great records that have a couple of duff tracks each maybe but people can't agree on which tracks those are

Murmur will always be my favourite R.E.M. album, hearing it after only knowing Automatic + Monster + various hits was such a revelation to me but LRP is a close second and probably the one I listen to the most. Lyric-wise it's definitely one of their most memorable for me (caveat: I'm not a huge lyrics person), lines like "I believe in coyotes and time as an abstract" pop into my head a lot. But yeah really none of the IRS records are less than great.

a mean idea to call my own
a hundred million birds fly away

a meager thing, recognition

I miss the days when there were so many R.E.M. threads we were bored of them.

fly to carry each his burden

that's great, it starts with

happy throngs, take this joy wherever
wherever the tax returns are

Offering the educated
Primitive and loyal

Our father's father's father tried
Erased the parts he didn't like

What the heck is going on at the beginning of “Superman”?

The scratchy spoken intro is attributed to a Japanese pull-string Godzilla doll.[3] Translated loosely from the Japanese, it says, "This is a special news report. Godzilla has been sighted in Tokyo Bay. The attack on it by the Self-Defense Force has been useless. He is heading towards the city. Aaaaaaaaagh...."

Oh yeah, I do hear the word “Gojira” now

I think 'Disturbance At The Heron House' might be one of his finest vocal melodies, I often wonder if it was difficult to replicate in a live setting because he always used a slightly lower, less vaulting melody.

Not my favourite R.E.M. era. Picking "Life's Right Pageant" because "Fall On Me".

Life's Rich Pageant is gorgeous, but I dunno it was a more vulnerable time for me and I can't listen to it. At the time I liked it more, but now that I'm a mean crusty old fart, I prefer Document 'cos it's louder and darker.

Fables > LRP > Document

I think. I love it all but Document seems a little... icy?

Icy? It's literally the one they told you to "File Under Fire"!

document has a hell of a side two cf. "fireplace". i prob prefer it to both fables and lrp at this point, it's so endearingly odd and transitional

I was actually just listening to Document straight through for the first time in a couple of years and "fire" is the right word for it. "Finest Worksong" sounds to me like a band that's just absolutely GOING for it, straining to throw every possible sound at the problem.

also forever thankful to r.e.m. for introducing me to wire. great cover too

That cover is probably the best representation in their official recorded output of the insanely great house party band they were in 1980-81

good point! you can hear a twisted version of that party on "Lightnin' Hopkins" too.

side 2 of Document is brittle spooky forest music, like let's rub ourselves in mud and run through the jungle, way past the Heron House

OTM Brad. I think side 2 of Document is a career highlight. If LRP was a tentative exploration of how they could pursue a more direct sound and remain eccentric, Document is a band fully at home in it's new sound, finding out it's still a pretty weird place anyway.

I adore Document.

you're not yet young
there's time to teach

Swan Swan H < King of Birds (close)

I no longer thing this is close, King of Birds by a wide margin (but both are great)

I've always been and remain a Lifes Rich Pageant fan, I think it's their best album. But I also think I've undervalued Document, it's really pretty good. Listening to it now. It's another one of their murkier albums, like Fables. But was also their actual commercial breakout, their first platinum album and first top 10 album and single.

Aside from the hits, Document is a pretty weird album. It's good, but LRP was the album that pulled me into REM. Swan Swan H and Superman being on the same tape blew me away.

Document came out my freshman year of college, I'm sure I bought it the day it was released. That tour was the first time I saw them, which was great. I was at the time kind of disappointed in the album, it definitely didn't grab me like LRP had. But on its own merits, it has a lot of good songs and also yeah just a generally weird and kind of dark vibe.

despite one or two shiny pop hits each most of their middle period albums have weird and dark vibes!

Speaking of weird dark vibes, I never understood the lack of enthusiasm for Fables. Sometimes it’s my favorite.

I don’t like the mix or guitar parts on Fables, me. Murmur and Reckoning and Pageant are my big ones— but I never “got” Green or Out Of Time— then on Automatic and Hi-Fi, Stipe started REALLY singing and I love it. Special shout to the second half of Accelerate, a ray of light in their long sundown

LRP blows Document out of the water. I have tried so many times with Document but it never clicks. The songs are fine but I feel like it’s the first album where the production got so airy and clear that it demands a different style of songwriting, which doesn’t really start to kick in until parts of Green and then fully on OOT.

I do like King of Birds a lot though

fgti i think we’re are similar REM fans, at least i agree with just about everything you just wrote although I rate Fables a bit more

god I love Fireplace

Great song, I’d probably love it if it were produced like either the era before or after this one

fgti perfectly otm on this topic

Finest Worksong is a fucking jam

I was too young for the early stuff. My brother, who was seven years older, was obsessed with them, but all the singles from that era kind of annoyed me.

I started digging through the early recently and made an “early REM” playlist and “Country Geedback” was probably the biggest revelation.

AFTP came out when I was in middle school and I loved it. It was my only REM album. I later ate at Weaver D’s once a week for like 2 years straight and got to hear “automatic!” every time my food was ready.

Feedback

It's interesting how much my taste was affected by economics (my tape-buying budget) as well as happenstance.

In those days I could afford a collection (Eponymous for example) but jot necessarily every previous record that fed it. Owning every full album was out of the question; one had to choose.

In those instances you would miss out on album tracks that had not been chosen for the collection, giving a distorted lens.

(This is also shaped by what was available in stores and also what one could copy from friends.)

Long way of saying I had Fables, LRP, Greeen, and some other odds and ends* But a full listening of Document didn't reach my ears until later. And Murmur and DLO still later.

* "Losing my Religion" was a muthaflippin CASSINGLE, yo.

oh yeah, that resonates. i had Out of Time on cassette, then Automatic as one of the first 20 or 30 CDs I ever bought. Somewhere around there I went back and got Eponymous but didn't actually hear the full IRS albums until years later.

My cassette of Automatic had some kind of tape issue, and it had this soft thump every few seconds - although strangely it always kept in time with the songs. Obviously it wasn't meant to be there, but pre-interent I kept wondering "is this deliberate?!?"

Now when I hear it on streaming I miss the thump.

I like Document a lot, although it's very metallic and oppressive! Their most "indie" record? In my head it kind of slots into Warehouse: Songs and Stories and Candy Apple Grey.

*pre-internet

I love Document and think it’s one of their very best albums.

Re: Document, I noticed a lot of later reissues really boost the upper frequencies which brings out a metallic (and I would add harsh, clangy and bright) sound, but I always preferred the original releases, including CD, which mastered it pretty well - you get that metallic quality without going too overboard with it, and it's more about muscle that the ear-bleeding highs.

I love both of these albums myself, though I love all of their I.R.S. albums. LRP I'm guessing was a surprising turn - getting John Mellencamp's producer was probably an unexpected choice, and it turned out brilliant.

(And IIRC Mills and/or Buck said they got Gehman specifically because they loved the sound he got on Mellencamp's records.)

I don’t like the mix or guitar parts on Fables

I love the PARTS, but they went from great guitar and amp sounds on the early records to who knows what in the London studio with Boyd.