TS: Double Nickels on the Dime vs. Zen Arcade

http://67.19.222.106/business/graphics/dime.jpg

easily

I probably play Zen Arcade more, if that makes any sense.

Zen Arcade is great, but not as great as New Day Rising, or Flip Your Wig.

Note: I did not grow up to be a Steely Dan fan. Also, I think Double Nickels gets really fucking boring after a while.

Double Nickels: 10
Zen Arcade: 8

Which surprises me because the Zen Arcade fans have been more vocal for sure. I totally agree about Double Nickels being overwhelming, but I don't think I've gotten through either record in one sitting. Don't know what kind of fan that makes me, but I'd be lying if I said the Minutemen have a lot of extramusical factors on their side (more likable members, better mythology, more concrete and appealling things they're "about"). Maybe this isn't fair, but I can't help the fact that simply the idea of the Minutemen has changed a lot of things for me.

xpost, I guess the tally stands the same with Pleasant's 6-month split.

dub nix

me too. and i did grow up to be a steely dan fan.

I almost sorta never wanna revisit Zen Arcade again.

for me Zen Arcade is hands down the best album of the 80's...the fact that all but 2 songs were recorded in one take floors me

maybe if tour spiel was on nickels I'd like it more than i do

Minutemen had 2 lyricists, too.

the Minutemen were one of those bands who I respect for all kinds of reasons that don't actually add up to enjoying their music, but the Husker Du sound is just undeniable.

the tougher fight for me would be zen arcade vs. let it be -- st. paul vs. minneapolis, expanding hardcore vs. laughing at it, folk-rock hart vs. tin-pan-alley westerberg, bad recording technique vs. wrong guitar notes.

both unbelievably classic, i'd probably pick double nickel today but it's been a while.........

I read them incessantly, and I remember them also containing ads, if not articles, on the whole SST thing, DRI, etc. I was about 12 at the time, so it was just words. I was way more into rap at the time. But I remember reading about these bands, and the bike riders who loved them. Anyone else?

Also, a troof acked: the version of 'Ain't Talkin' Bout Love' on The Blasting Concept II absolutely kills the one on Double Nickels(am I right in thinking that the CD doesn't even have it on it anyway?)

'Tache of Norton, hair of Hurley (eye of newt)

Well, "Nickels" was SST 027 while "Zen Arcade" was SST 028, so that would suggest that the 'men got there first. (Doesn't GUARANTEE it, of course.) I remember David Fricke reviewing them together in Rolling Stone - in fact, it was the concurrent rave reviews (Fricke, Xgau, Joe Fernbacher in CREEM) which intrigued me enough to spend 8-9 months seeking out Zen Arcade; and that was my first exposure to indie. I'd never even encountered the term "hardcore" as a genre until Fernbacher's review. (And I never rode a BMX, Justin!)

I never quite figured out whether or not those were supposed to be locked grooves at the end of each side on Double Nickels or whether it was just that the return on my record played was bolloxed. Does it have all the engine noises on the CD version?
Also, a troof acked: the version of 'Ain't Talkin' Bout Love' on The Blasting Concept II absolutely kills the one on Double Nickels (am I right in thinking that the CD doesn't even have it on it anyway?)

-- NickB

Yes, those were locked grooves. And the CD indeed lacks "Ain't Talkin' Bout Love" and all but two of the "Car Jams", retaining only the ones at the beginning and end.

Double Nickels for me every time.

haven't listened to either in like forever tho. the idea of SST on CD doesnn't quite make sense, sonically speaking....

Also, xpost to Justin: While I don't think my exposure to punk/hardcore came from BMX specifically, it was certainly concurrent with it in some ways. So there's that.

Isn't clear to me if it is possible to get CD sources for everything and reconstruct it or not. I mean, the version of "Mr. Robot's Holy Orders" on Ballot Result isn't the same as the Double Nickels version is it?
I mean, I'm willing to buy up whatever CDs I need to reconstruct it, but I can't tell if it is actually feasible.

Maybe I should wander over to the YSI thread...

xxxpost to Edward: You've found some good sites. You might also want to check out Mike Watt's hootpage over at http://www.hootpage.com/. It's a good one. Also, I used the version of "Little Man" that I found over at eMusic at the end of Buzz or Howl Under the Influence of Heat. eMusic has added a lot of SST stuff which is really great, and whether we can digitally reconstruct an approximation of the original Double Nickels or not, those other albums and EPs are worth it just to hear the TONS of other great Minutemen songs. A personal favorite of mine is "Futurism Restated" from the Bean Spill EP.

also, i would way rather have a beer and rock out with mike watt than drink herbal tea and listen to new-age electronica with bob mould.

I know it's a typo, but it would be funny if you liked the performers of the "I finally found the love of a lifetime" song more than the Minutemen.

I also like fIREHOSE more than the Minutemen, probably because I heard them first. The 1989 Santa Cruz skate video Streets Of Fire had Natas Kaupaus skating to firehose's "Brave Captain" and was a huge, significant moment in my 14-year-old life. The Minutemen sounded so disjointed and sloppy and D.Boon's voice and just didn't do it for me like Ed Crawford's did. Thrasher magazine, the occaisional 3rd generation dubbed tape and random skate videos were the only source I had for non-mainstream music when I was a kid.

I listen to the Minutemen a lot, hoping that everything will click and I'll suddenly get it, but it hasn't happened. I don't dislike them, but I keep thinking they should blow my mind. So, I'm voting Zen Arcade.

The Minutemen are a band I admire in a mostly thinking-about-it kind of way. But turn up "Something I Learned Today" and I'll leave the volume up for the rest of the album. YAAAAARRRRR.

The tracklistings are correct.

Yeah, that bit struck me as unlikely, as well.

"exactly" is part of the joke. Sammy couldn't drive 55, but they'll do it exactly "on the dime".

Double Nickels on the Dime, and not just because I saw We Jam Econo last night at AS220 (any other Providential ILMers go?).

When the albums came out I'd have probably voted for Zen Arcade, it was so sonically overwhelming and dense, but by '87 I found myself listening to DNOTD more and more and ZA not so much. Since then DNOTD has proven the more rewarding, it just keeps on giving. I still like ZA, but associate it with a lot of adolescent emotional garbage I've grown out of, whereas The Minutemen's stuff still seems necessary and urgent. Plus, I'm a cynical atheist who doesn't believe in shit yet The Minutemen manage to strike some idealist chord in me.

We Jam Econo is highly recommended by the way, especially for those who are struggling to "get" The Minutemen.

-- geeta (geet...), Yesterday 11:44 AM. (geeta)

:-(

The first song I played on my college radio station was "Turn On The News"... that said, I've listened to Double Nickels way more in my life.

Maybe a better Beatles/Elvis comparison would be, like someone said upthread, HD v. the Replacements.

And I'd like to note that "I Will Never Forget You" is one of the most powerful songs ever, it floors me every time!!

Sheesh. I'm completely gobsmacked by all the kind things being said about the film in the press. Recent articles include an op-ed piece in the New York Times! Written by Sarah Vowell. That was an honor as I had been such a huge fan of her work on this american life (radio documentaries on NPR). Check the Articles page to read that one and others in Thrasher, Magnet, The New Yorker, and about 20-30 others. The screening announcements are comming fast. We've had sold out crowds in San Francisco, and New York, and huge crowds at many other venues, see the screenings page for past and future screenings. DVD is coming along, still building the extra stuff. We will be including 3 live shows in their entirety (well we MAY have to cut out creedance covers and the like due to licensing difficulties), The music videos the band did, and tons more spiel. Working on the book version as well. Many thanks for everyone who has come out to the screenings.

http://www.corndogs.org/ might have something up about it eventually as well.

Haha, yeah, I just mentioned Christian music on the "ten years old" thread, but yeah, I was still waiting for the 16 HP YSI's on the emo thread. Then again, I never reposted the ones I said I would. It's funny, I've noticed that, contrary to what I would have thought, actually opening myself to criticism has made posting to ILM much more rewarding than it used to be.

Also, just to be clear, no kind of emo constitutes the majority of my listening experience, nor am I a Christian. That said, I do like Christians and a couple of C-emo bands.

Also, I totally like early/early 90's emo stuff like Sunny Day Real Estate, Promise Ring (a little), and Rites of Spring. But I think Rites of Spring sounds more like Slayer than nu-emo.

I've never heard Sunny Day Real Estate (of course I know OF them) Promise Ring, and I actually do like Rites of Spring. Have you ever heard Embrace? That's one of my favorites from like the same time as Rites of Spring.

My theory is that when it comes to important subjects, there's only two ways a person can answer. For example, there's two kinds of people in this world, Elvis people and Beatles people. Now Beatles people can like Elvis. And Elvis people can like the Beatles. But nobody likes them both equally. Somewhere you have to make a choice. And that choice tells me who you are.

Husker Du and The Minutemen were both angry/aggressive bands pushing envelopes in their distinct fashions. But the differences are significant:

Husker Du: Introverted ("What's Going On Inside My Head?"), enveloping sound of harmonics and distortion, emotional extremes & melodrama, songwriting is more traditionally based, informed by 60s pop, psychedelia, and scream therapy, explores individual's relations to self/nature/family/friends. YOU wronged me!

Minutemen: Extroverted ("My Heart And The Real World"), abrasive / stringent sound, spirit of joy/celebration, righteously indignated, complex & challenging musicianship (e.g. what if Captain Beefheart tackled funk rather than blues), explores individual's relations to politcs/history/class/work. We wronged ourselves!

re: We Jam Econo - I'm having trouble evaluating how good the movie is, because I'm a big Minutemen fan. I'd like to hear somebody's opinion of it who's never heard of The Minutemen (or any of the people interviewed). I will say it got a long round of applause after the screening in Providence on Wednesday - from a pack of too-cool-for-school hipsters, no less.

The DVD's supposed to contain 3 whole concerts as extras, but there's no release date yet.

In the interests of science, I will get my daughter to watch this when the DVD comes out.

Edward, xxpost, very nice breakdown, although I'm totally wary of "two kinds of people in this world" statements. As one of my favorite poets, Dean Young, wrote, "There are two kinds of people in this world and you may be neither." Anyway, I still like the characterization, and I am totally a Minutemen man, if for this one alone: spirit of joy/celebration. They do that shit so well. And yet, they can still sound pissed off, e.g. "Joe McCarthy's Ghost" and "Paranoid Chant." But no matter what emotion they are expressing, the important thing to me is that it is always a result of being (almost painfully) engaged with the world and themselves and those around them.

Also, I totally agree w/ the Beefheart comparison and don't know why more people don't see him as a direct precursor to them, unless I'm wrong and people do.

I have a friend who was working on a thesis about Minutemen, Beefheart and William Carlos Williams and "American Freedom". Or something like that.

That reminds me of a funny little story my dad used to tell me. I guess it was way back when the Beatles were huge, he was going to visit his cousin I think, and he was wearing a big Beatle button. So when he got to his cousin's doorstep, his cousin answered the door and upon seeing the Beatle button, before even saying "hi" or anything I think, he asks, "are you a Beatle lover??, because I'm a Beatle HATER!" Beacause he was into Elvis.

I've always seen the similaritys between Beefheart and the Minutemen, but I've also noticed it in bands like the Slits or Kleenex.

xpost to bendy: holy shit! will you please please give my email address to your friend and tell him to send me that shit (at least when it's done or whatever). that shit is like the intersection of everything i do, practically. sounds sweet.

xpost

ZEN ARCADE

DN is great but it's too fun. i'll take the doom & gloom of dü any day. except today, when i am listening to DN.