TS: the Eagles reconsidered VS the death of rock criticism

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courtesy of Idolator here's a link to a NY magazine-sponsored "blog" about best-selling 70s rock band the Eagles. Since I've been rediscovering country-rock of late I gave this a read, figuring my lifelong aversion to Henley/Frey LLC could be dissipated if not reversed by a well-reasoned restatement of this band's enduring appeal.

WRONG.

instead here's a capsule summary of everything bogus about current music writing -- the smug insiders tone, the insistence on superficiality, the knee-slapping joeks. "Oh yeah Don Henley's 'fro' is cool/ironic/funnylooking so ya gotta love those Eagles..." whaetver

http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/2007/05/why_the_eagles_are_the_best_ba.html

discus

― m coleman, Friday, 11 May 2007 11:19 (nineteen years ago)

It's reminiscent of that Casper Lllewlyn-Smith piece on Prince that was linked to on here the other day, insofar as it goes to show that getting Proper Journalists to write blog-style is an even dumber idea than asking bloggers to do full-scale print articles.

― Dom Passantino, Friday, 11 May 2007 11:23 (nineteen years ago)

The list schemata put me off reading it straight off.

Properly constructed, coherent, well-argued music writing reguired generally, urgent and key.

― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 11 May 2007 12:01 (nineteen years ago)

Well, it seems the "rockist haters" on ILM aren't ready to quite rehabilitate The Eagles yet. I guess, mainly because they hate anything that appeals mostly to grownups.

― Geir Hongro, Friday, 11 May 2007 12:02 (nineteen years ago)

I'm very happy to rehabilitate the Eagles Geir! Actually I never dehabilitated them in the first place, being a Brit I only know "Hotel California".

― Groke, Friday, 11 May 2007 12:06 (nineteen years ago)

See, Tom, an article by you on the Eagles would be about 8 million times more readable.

― Ned Raggett, Friday, 11 May 2007 12:21 (nineteen years ago)

Well, it seems the "rockist haters" on ILM aren't ready to quite rehabilitate The Eagles yet. I guess, mainly because they hate anything that appeals mostly to grownups.

-- Geir Hongro, Friday, 11 May 2007 13:02 (19 minutes ago)

This is the single most asinine, contemptuous lack of even pretending to read anything any of the previous posters contributed I've ever seen.

― Noodle Vague, Friday, 11 May 2007 12:27 (nineteen years ago)

i've always loved the eagles. i've never understood the hate.

― scott seward, Friday, 11 May 2007 12:30 (nineteen years ago)

Really, Geir, ring the authorities in Majorca and take the kid back. You'll get a fair trial.

― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 11 May 2007 12:33 (nineteen years ago)

I really am sick and tired of these list "articles."

― QuantumNoise, Friday, 11 May 2007 12:38 (nineteen years ago)

the list was compiled in response to an article on radar, wherein New York mag is compared to the Eagles, i.e. "a technically flawless assemblage of expertly crafted elements that look, on paper (as it were), as though they ought to translate into a superb magazine, and yet somehow still manage to suck."

http://www.radaronline.com/features/2007/05/adam_moss_new_york_magazine_1.php

― Veronica Moser, Friday, 11 May 2007 12:49 (nineteen years ago)

guess I feel dumb for not knowing about that ^^ but it sorta proves my point about the inside-dopesters. soooo maybe this was a parody? I can be overly earnest at times, wouldn't be the first time I missed the pt.

― m coleman, Friday, 11 May 2007 12:53 (nineteen years ago)

i don't think it's so bad. is it really that smug? i mean, the tone is just generic rockfan dude. speaking of which, i actually kinda liked klosterman's piece on rush/spirit of radio in this month's esquire. it's that kinda tone. "why do they rule? dude, it's RUSH. Neil motherfuckin' Peart! By-Tor & The Friggin' Snow Dog! Say no more."

― scott seward, Friday, 11 May 2007 12:53 (nineteen years ago)

Heard "Hotel California" on the radio the other day and was very impressed with the bass playing on it.

― Mark Rich@rdson, Friday, 11 May 2007 12:59 (nineteen years ago)

yeah "HC" isn't so terrible

― m coleman, Friday, 11 May 2007 13:00 (nineteen years ago)

It is when it's played 40 million times a day on the radio, OK I know, I don't have to listen to the radio, but still &c.

― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 11 May 2007 13:06 (nineteen years ago)

"Hotel California" may have been played 40 million times a day on the radio in 1977, but not today.

― Geir Hongro, Friday, 11 May 2007 13:10 (nineteen years ago)

26. They ripped off Ian Matthews incessantly.

― QuantumNoise, Friday, 11 May 2007 13:16 (nineteen years ago)

It is played 40 million times a day on Radio 2, Heart FM, Magic FM, Capital Gold and Virgin Radio, all of which are radio stations in Britain, which is another country.

Were you unaware that there were other countries on this planet, apart from Spain?

― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 11 May 2007 13:21 (nineteen years ago)

The Eagles are the shit. OOooh, withcy woman!11111111111!!11

― jim, Friday, 11 May 2007 13:23 (nineteen years ago)

In fact the whole first album is pretty great. Most of us are sad is the amazeo. A song called Chug all night! What could be better?

― jim, Friday, 11 May 2007 13:25 (nineteen years ago)

i just feel like the eagles are a slippery slope from which there is no crawling out of

― strongohulkington, Friday, 11 May 2007 13:35 (nineteen years ago)

Oldie stations don't play the same oldie several times a day. Besides, why would you listen to Radio 2 when they aim their policy at an audience obviously different from your musical taste?

(Well, OK, I guess you're just jealous because Radio 2 has become more important than Radio 1 lately when it comes to actual album sales)

― Geir Hongro, Friday, 11 May 2007 13:45 (nineteen years ago)

the Eagles had about 4 good songs and Joe Walsh. Other than that, fuck em.

I guess they signify something, but I think it's weird that people who weren't even alive when they were HUGE still use them as whipping boy for bloated, ego-driven AOR.

― will, Friday, 11 May 2007 13:47 (nineteen years ago)

Oldie stations don't play the same oldie several times a day.

WELCOME TO AMERICA MORK

NANOO NANOO

― David R., Friday, 11 May 2007 13:47 (nineteen years ago)

'course, as Marcello said, they do still get played A LOT, which can be right annoying. Especially when so much of it is so mediocre.

― will, Friday, 11 May 2007 13:50 (nineteen years ago)

it being Eagles' songs.

― will, Friday, 11 May 2007 13:50 (nineteen years ago)

i just feel like the eagles are a slippery slope from which there is no crawling out of

Everyone get that man the drink of his choice, as no truer words etc.

― Ned Raggett, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:01 (nineteen years ago)

I just heard "I Can't Tell You Why" at the cafeteria! My eyebrows were singed.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:03 (nineteen years ago)

the Eagles had about 4 good songs and Joe Walsh. Other than that, fuck em.

They started out by releasing two constantly excellent albums. Then the quality dropped, but the vocal harmonies were still excellent and they were sometimes able to come up with wonderful harmony-pop gems such as "Lyin' Eyes"

― Geir Hongro, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:06 (nineteen years ago)

jealous = the new godwins

― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:40 (nineteen years ago)

awesome harmonies=do not a good song make

― Mr. Que, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:44 (nineteen years ago)

and the only reason the Eagles seem to be liked by "adults" now: as teenagers those adults listened to the Eagles instead of Dylan???

― Mr. Que, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:46 (nineteen years ago)

in the u.s. anyway, they have always been soooooooooooo huge, it's kinda hard to stereotype a fan. country fans LOVE the eagles. in the 70's they were as ubiqitous as linda ronstadt, fleetwood mac, jackson browne, steely dan, etc. all the people who fit pop AND rock radio formats.

― scott seward, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:55 (nineteen years ago)

yeah, for 85% of the country they are the perfect band

― gff, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:57 (nineteen years ago)

ahhh that is pretty true.

― Mr. Que, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:57 (nineteen years ago)

though they came from that shaggy L.A. cowboy and drugz atmosphere, they became something much more uber-amerikaner.

― scott seward, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:59 (nineteen years ago)

like fleetwood mac, they have always had a pretty even male/female audience too.

― scott seward, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:01 (nineteen years ago)

i bet if you woke me up in the middle of the night and made me do "hotel california" karaoke, i'd do pretty good, and i don't like the eagles! kind of amazing to think about, as songwriting/production/sustained cultural terrorism etc

― gff, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:01 (nineteen years ago)

all the clean-cut kids at my high school dug the eagles. jackson browne was a girls thing, though. remember frye boots? nah you're too young.

― m coleman, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:03 (nineteen years ago)

though they came from that shaggy L.A. cowboy and drugz atmosphere, they became something much more uber-amerikaner.

plus, they embody the whole from-the-midwest-to-california/transplant thing.

― QuantumNoise, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:04 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.fryeboots.com/subpages/images/87385BLK.jpg

Frye Boots still alive and kicking

― will, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:05 (nineteen years ago)

i dug the eagles when i was a kid in the 70's. and my dad had frye boots, but not me.

you were golden if you could get the girls AND the guys to buy your records. both my sister and my brother loved queen. for different reasons.

― scott seward, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:06 (nineteen years ago)

that LA cowboy thing seemed phony in the 70s but I can sorta see it now. always hated how jock-y the eagles looked, tho, wearing football jerseys on stage and shit GET SOME PLATFORM SHOES & MAKEUP YA FAGZ

― m coleman, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:07 (nineteen years ago)

i think i'm just brainwashed from birth. i have an infinite capacity for eagles/steve miller rock radio.

― scott seward, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:08 (nineteen years ago)

yeah, well that's the thing, they BECAME that sorta arena-rock mid-west fantasy cliche after their initial arrival.

― scott seward, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:09 (nineteen years ago)

i really wanted to go see linda ronstadt and the eagles at the yale bowl when i was a kid.

― scott seward, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:09 (nineteen years ago)

GET SOME PLATFORM SHOES & MAKEUP YA FAGZ

:D

― will, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:11 (nineteen years ago)

but even after they became bloated coke-faces i liked them. i can't deny that heartache tonight big beat.

― scott seward, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:11 (nineteen years ago)

Although they deny they ripped it entirely off "Never Let Her Slip Away" by Andrew Gold.

― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:12 (nineteen years ago)

the smug insiders tone, the insistence on superficiality, the knee-slapping joeks

I know what Mark means, and yeah I hate that sort of thing too - that whole "I'll enjoy anything with a detached air of superiority" attitude too. (I always trace that tone back to Spin magazine, but no doubt its origins go further back than that.) But when the guy actually confines himself to talking about, y'know, the actual music, what it sounds like etc., some of his points are actually pretty useful, or they can be. He's OTM about "Disco Strangler" and "Those Shoes" being excellent sample-sources, for example. And his description of that "Sorcerer" thing is intriguing enough to makes me want to hear the damn thing.

― Myonga Vön Bontee, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:14 (nineteen years ago)

that "Those Shoes" sample in "Eric B. Never Scared" haunted me forever until I picked up a copy of The Long Run for a dollar in the mid-90s. what a great album that is!

― Stormy Davis, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:28 (nineteen years ago)

what compromises the Eagles for me, in terms of being "America's band," is that Henley is very weak drummer. plod plod plod…their RAWK toons thus suffer, but I think their ballads are pretty much monumental.

AND NOW, AD HOMINEM TIME: (may have mentioned this before on ILM)

Apparently, after the Eagles broke up in 1980, Henley secured the services of a teenage call girl. She did too much blow and Henley got in BIG TROUBLE, but managed to weasel out of the worst of the consequences, via his influential pals. It still doomed any chances he might have had to seek public office, which he had ambitions for…

The preceding is all easy to confirm, despite his best efforts to suppress it. but the most hilariously despicable bit is that, after the gal OD'd, he apparently called the pimp and apparently said "this one is broken, send me another."

― Veronica Moser, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:28 (nineteen years ago)

i've never understood rock fans attacking the Eagles on moral issues.

― QuantumNoise, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:35 (nineteen years ago)

AGree with Myonga--the writer of the piece makes a few valid musical points on occasion--and was also going to quote Mark's line "insistence on superficiality." The writer can't just go with the stuff he seems to genuinely like about the Eagles, he has to throw in all these other moments that are clearly just eye-rolling ha-ha-has which aren't really that funny at all (and the whole let's-point-out-the-excesses-of-the-period angle ceased being interesting years ago). No problems with the format or the concept of the piece, though.

― sw00ds, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:36 (nineteen years ago)

That Glenn Frey "boring vs. laid back" is pretty funny - especially coming from the single most boring musician Detroit has ever produced.

― Myonga Vön Bontee, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:48 (nineteen years ago)

I was named Alexis after the James Gang song, so I guess I owe a tiny bit of my personality to the Eagles. However, I had a long day and I hate the fuckin' Eagles, man!

― Finefinemusic, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:55 (nineteen years ago)

actually "Alexis" is by the post-Walsh James Gang so blame Tommy Bolin!

― m coleman, Friday, 11 May 2007 16:21 (nineteen years ago)

about ten years ago I got assigned a brief book review of an Eagles bio. so short in fact that I barely did more than re-type the title but the book recounted many of Henley/Frey's sexx and drug adventures, including the incident Veronica alludes to. while I'm not one to judge moral turpitude I was appalled by the mean-spirited slant of the Henley quotes in the book, the guy didn't really appreciate the uhm spoils of rockstardom, he felt like was doing the groupies a favor.

he seemed like an ingrate asshoel in other words, though of course bigger jerks than Don Henley have made great music.

― m coleman, Friday, 11 May 2007 16:32 (nineteen years ago)

There must be more than a few songs with lyrics moaning about groupies as exploiters of poor, naive rock stars.

― Noodle Vague, Friday, 11 May 2007 16:40 (nineteen years ago)

Thanks M Coleman! When I last sought info (2-3 years ago) about the song there was very little about it except the band name and some Walsh info, so I just assumed he was in them at the time.

― Finefinemusic, Friday, 11 May 2007 16:58 (nineteen years ago)

one of the biggest influences on current country music. every time I hear that guitar break in "Life in the Fast Lane" where the slide comes in I laugh. sure it's "good" music but I find the tone, not offensive, but just smug, I guess, and if it's great studio-rock it's also like rock-in-a-box to me, and the culmination of all the things to hate about the '70s. I mean wow, "Hotel California" is all about how THEY'RE in California and you're stuck in Ohio or Detroit or wherever those fucking Eagles came from. That's what I get out of the music; I mean the level of specificity is actually pretty pathetic on a song like "Witchy Woman," who in their right mind would use the word "witchy" in any context except people who have bought into the whole thing they're supposedly all existentially dragged about? But musically, of course, they had some real virtues and I mean it's stupid to deny the relative excellence of "Take It to the Limit" and a few others, maybe "Lyin' Eyes" works because it's just so repetitious. Steve Miller was a thousand times better than the Eagles.

― whisperineddhurt, Friday, 11 May 2007 17:10 (nineteen years ago)

version of take it to the limit on castleberry & dupree's city down album is great. if you are into afro-wymmyn folk eagles reappropriation.

― scott seward, Friday, 11 May 2007 17:17 (nineteen years ago)

i guess i just don't have any baggage with the eagles. i never tried to pick them apart. i've been hearing them on the radio for 30+ years just like everyone else i've been hearing and i am always up for hotel california or life in the fast lane or new kid in town or one of these nights or the long run or whatever. i love all those songs. as much as i love any steve miller radio hit.

― scott seward, Friday, 11 May 2007 17:20 (nineteen years ago)

other songs i love:

take it easy

peaceful easy feeling

tequila sunrise

desperado

already gone

james dean

best of my love

good day in hell

victim of love

in the city

the greeks don't want no freaks

teenage jail

plus any friend of jd souther is a friend of mine. and, yeah, henley is the devil. but the poco connection makes up for henley. cuz i am loco for poco!

― scott seward, Friday, 11 May 2007 17:25 (nineteen years ago)

It seems like more and more places are devolving to this sort of blog-style "friendly conversation" unserious approach to covering music -- not "criticism," but chatty entertainment writing -- and while I tend not to like it, it's interesting how it does start to function better when you think of it as part of a NET of information. For some people, I think, the way to figure stuff out about music isn't to sit down and concentrate on one person's incisive opinions about it, but to scan superficial chatty coverage from a multitude of places, all of which really can add up to move than a superficial view -- they wind up working out the ever-more-complicated social stuff about the music, what kinds of people like what, what terms they like or dislike it in, what aesthetics fall where, etc.

― nabisco, Friday, 11 May 2007 18:03 (nineteen years ago)

Obviously this means increasingly treating music as a style issue on the level of off-the-rack fashion, but that's not exactly a new trend.

― nabisco, Friday, 11 May 2007 18:05 (nineteen years ago)

according to simon frith lyin eyes is "the most perfect pop single ever made." i think i agree sometimes.

― artdamages, Friday, 11 May 2007 18:14 (nineteen years ago)

yes (xpost)

― artdamages, Friday, 11 May 2007 18:15 (nineteen years ago)

I do give Don Henley credit for surviving the end of his affair with Stevie Nicks.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Friday, 11 May 2007 18:17 (nineteen years ago)

hey MCole…

the worst part of that book, among many perpetrated by that super-hack, was that the incident was only alluded to. Eliot only sez that Henley was busted, doesn't say what for, but opines that it was a bum rap. I imagine that Henley had leaned on anyone who dared mention it…

― Veronica Moser, Friday, 11 May 2007 18:42 (nineteen years ago)

"On the night of November 21, 1980, Henley was arrested for cocaine, Quaalude, and marijuana possession after a nude 16-year-old prostitute had drug-related seizures in a hotel room [1] Henley was subsequently charged with contributing to the delinquency of a minor." sez Answers.com

― Drew Daniel, Friday, 11 May 2007 18:56 (nineteen years ago)

OMG rock stars doing blow!!

http://drudgereport.com/siren.gif

C'mon guys, it was the 70's.

― Mr. Que, Friday, 11 May 2007 18:59 (nineteen years ago)

Or the '80s.

― David R., Friday, 11 May 2007 19:00 (nineteen years ago)

eagles (> x billion) steve miller

― gff, Friday, 11 May 2007 19:02 (nineteen years ago)

It was still the 70's, even in the 80's. Ask your parents.

― Mr. Que, Friday, 11 May 2007 19:02 (nineteen years ago)

There must be more than a few songs with lyrics moaning about groupies as exploiters of poor, naive rock stars.

Peter Hammill, "Energy Vampires"?

― Jon Lewis, Friday, 11 May 2007 19:02 (nineteen years ago)

Uh it's music criticism from NY mag y'all.

― Eppy, Friday, 11 May 2007 19:20 (nineteen years ago)

I mean have you never seen the jukebox juries they do with preschool teachers from Park Slope? That's their reviews section.

― Eppy, Friday, 11 May 2007 19:20 (nineteen years ago)

That style really is getting more popular across the board, though.

― nabisco, Friday, 11 May 2007 19:24 (nineteen years ago)

"I have a Bugaboo and think the new Bjork album is disappointing! Now you don't have to pay for an actual writer!"

― Eppy, Friday, 11 May 2007 19:25 (nineteen years ago)

There must be more than a few songs with lyrics ~~moaning about~~ reveling in groupies as exploiters of poor, naive rock stars

The Stones, "Star Star"

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Friday, 11 May 2007 19:40 (nineteen years ago)

I would rather listen to "Freebird" and "Stairway to Heaven" and "Roundabout" 10 times in a row each than one play of "Hotel California." That's the most rotten chestnut in the FM playlist. I'm positive its not an allegory for anything. It's just a bunch of stuff thrown together. (Same is probably true for S2H, but it has a way less annoying guitar solo.)

Walsh is otherwise pretty likable.

― bendy, Friday, 11 May 2007 20:18 (nineteen years ago)

The guitar solo in "Hotel California" is great. Melodic and nice.

― Geir Hongro, Friday, 11 May 2007 20:53 (nineteen years ago)

awesome harmonies=do not a good song make

No, but it makes a good arrangements, and it tends to come together with good songs (Beach Boys, Beatles, Hollies, Byrds, Badfinger, Queen, 10cc)

― Geir Hongro, Friday, 11 May 2007 20:54 (nineteen years ago)

you forgot ABBA

― Mr. Que, Friday, 11 May 2007 20:55 (nineteen years ago)

as teenagers those adults listened to the Eagles instead of Dylan???

When The Eagles' fans were teenagers, The Eagles didn't exist, and their fans were still listening to The Beatles and The Beach Boys.

― Geir Hongro, Friday, 11 May 2007 20:57 (nineteen years ago)

I might have added ABBA too, they were great.

But I tend to like all male vocals better.

― Geir Hongro, Friday, 11 May 2007 20:58 (nineteen years ago)

i just don't like their music, although i like all of the elements of their music: harmonies, guitar solos, different singers on different songs.

― Mr. Que, Friday, 11 May 2007 20:59 (nineteen years ago)

their music is treacly and sappy and the way they use those elements is just a turn off.

― Mr. Que, Friday, 11 May 2007 21:00 (nineteen years ago)

Stop using negative words to describe something positive. Music needs to be polished and shouldn't have too many rough edges.

― Geir Hongro, Friday, 11 May 2007 21:04 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io7Y11OMPms

― Curt1s Stephens, Friday, 11 May 2007 21:05 (nineteen years ago)

Wonderfully twee. Sadly the song isn't among their best though.

― Geir Hongro, Friday, 11 May 2007 21:06 (nineteen years ago)

dude, whatever. get a blog or something.

― Mr. Que, Friday, 11 May 2007 21:09 (nineteen years ago)

"When The Eagles' fans were teenagers, The Eagles didn't exist, and their fans were still listening to The Beatles and The Beach Boys."

simply not true. I find it somewhat bizarre to have explain this, but the success of the Eagles was very much due to their American teenage fans in the 1970s, ones that had largely missed out on the heyday of the Beatles and Beach Boys.

Incidentally, have you ever been to America, Mr. Hongro?

― Veronica Moser, Friday, 11 May 2007 21:10 (nineteen years ago)

music can have lots of rough edges. that's the problem with the eagles, they are too clean and polished!

― Mr. Que, Friday, 11 May 2007 21:10 (nineteen years ago)

I cannot get enuff of Mr Hongro's absolutist ideas! that all music must conform to HIS specifications! that sociological conditions are completely irrelevant! you, sir, are endlessly entertaining!

― Veronica Moser, Friday, 11 May 2007 21:14 (nineteen years ago)

Stop using negative words to describe something positive!

― dmr, Friday, 11 May 2007 21:34 (nineteen years ago)

think content, Geir baby, not context, sometimes, like songs might be about something and the Eagles are pretty evasive if you ask me.

― whisperineddhurt, Friday, 11 May 2007 21:43 (nineteen years ago)

Music is music. It doesn't have to be about anything. It isn't meant as anything else but music anyway.

― Geir Hongro, Friday, 11 May 2007 21:59 (nineteen years ago)

music can have lots of rough edges. that's the problem with the eagles, they are too clean and polished!

That is never a problem. And, yes, music CAN have rough edges, but it shouldn't. Because it works better without.

― Geir Hongro, Friday, 11 May 2007 22:00 (nineteen years ago)

"Shouldn't" ? "works better"? At what? Polishing the floor?

― Drew Daniel, Friday, 11 May 2007 22:02 (nineteen years ago)

I find it somewhat bizarre to have explain this, but the success of the Eagles was very much due to their American teenage fans in the 1970s, ones that had largely missed out on the heyday of the Beatles and Beach Boys.

American teenagers in the late 70s were disco fans, they weren't into The Eagles. The Eagles were enjoyed by older, more mature, listeners who weren't fooled to like throwaway disco.

― Geir Hongro, Friday, 11 May 2007 22:02 (nineteen years ago)

"Shouldn't" ? "works better"? At what? Polishing the floor?

At pleasing the listener. Simple as that. That's the point about music. Pleasing the listener.

― Geir Hongro, Friday, 11 May 2007 22:03 (nineteen years ago)

There isn't one abstract universal listener. Some listeners want rough and smooth doesn't please them. Music is a manifold that's culturally and historicall plural.

― Drew Daniel, Friday, 11 May 2007 22:05 (nineteen years ago)

historically plural, that is.

― Drew Daniel, Friday, 11 May 2007 22:06 (nineteen years ago)

American teenagers in the late 70s were disco fans, they weren't into The Eagles.

my older brother is going to be so bummed when he finds out van halen were actually disco.

― QuantumNoise, Friday, 11 May 2007 22:08 (nineteen years ago)

OK, so there was hard rock too, and hard rock has always appealed to kids. But The Eagles were hardly hard rock. They were too "soft" for those kids who refused to get into disco.

― Geir Hongro, Friday, 11 May 2007 22:10 (nineteen years ago)

Some listeners want rough and smooth doesn't please them.

In which case their wish isn't based on music alone, but rather on irrelevant sociological factors that should be shut out when enjoying music.

― Geir Hongro, Friday, 11 May 2007 22:11 (nineteen years ago)

Dudes, Geir is ON FIRE today, you should really take a second and just give thanks to be alive to see this.

― nabisco, Friday, 11 May 2007 22:13 (nineteen years ago)

"Shouldn't" ? "works better"? At what? Polishing the floor?

-- Drew Daniel, Friday, 11 May 2007 22:02 (12 minutes ago)

this made me rowlfle
http://wap.filmnight.com/pictures/Rowlf___Piano_164756.gif

― 6335, Friday, 11 May 2007 22:18 (nineteen years ago)

"I was there ... when Geir went off his meds and one-upped himself in the creation of an entirely new psychological syndrome." (Hongro's Complaint: a presentation of paradoxical solipsism / megalomania, often resembling paranoia and sometimes referred to as "delusions of objectivity," in which the subject becomes convinced that some aspects of his tastes, perceptions, and experience are shared by all other people in the universe, who are only claiming to disagree in an effort to trick, deceive, or manipulate him.)

― nabisco, Friday, 11 May 2007 22:20 (nineteen years ago)

(Other famous sufferers of Hongro's Complaint include George W. Bush and the better part of his cabinet and advisors.)

― nabisco, Friday, 11 May 2007 22:21 (nineteen years ago)

man I love when Geir gets all armchair sociologist

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 11 May 2007 22:24 (nineteen years ago)

I'm sure Geir's lengthy tours of America in the 70s gave him a unique perspective on the listening tastes and aesthetics of people who have no interest in his weirdly solipsistic worldview

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 11 May 2007 22:25 (nineteen years ago)

also did I mention Geir hates black people?

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 11 May 2007 22:26 (nineteen years ago)

(except for Prince and Stevie Wonder)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 11 May 2007 22:26 (nineteen years ago)

White audiences tend to buy a combination of various musical styles, while there are very few African American buyers more into song-oriented music than groove-oriented music.

-- Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Monday, April 21, 2003 2:06 PM (4 years ago)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 11 May 2007 22:29 (nineteen years ago)

Geir's finest hour

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 11 May 2007 22:43 (nineteen years ago)

Music is European.

This isn't as much about rejecting African cultural traditions as it is about defending European ones and keeping them alive forever.

Rock is actually a comination of African and European musical styles. Why, then, is it that all European elements should be taken away from music, which is the case with most hip-hop and R&B.

I mean, what is usually seen as "white" music is actually a mixture of European and African traditions, while funk, rap and hip-hop are African only with absolutely no European stylistic elements at all. Fine that, but not if it is going to replace the wonderful tradition of melodies and harmonics.

-- Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Monday, April 21, 2003 2:03 PM (4 years ago)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 11 May 2007 22:43 (nineteen years ago)

sorry to get all ethan/and what on this thread

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 11 May 2007 22:44 (nineteen years ago)

wow. he certainly doesn't get me as riled as he does a lot of people, but that thread!

if he didn't exist you'd ahve to make him up.

― will, Friday, 11 May 2007 22:48 (nineteen years ago)

"American teenagers in the late 70s were disco fans, they weren't into The Eagles. The Eagles were enjoyed by older, more mature, listeners who weren't fooled to like throwaway disco."

I hesitate to respond, but do so, partly to say hello to Drew, with whom I grew up…

But you, my dear man, have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. admittedly, this is a far from unusual occurrence, and precisely why I adore you.

American teenagers, much like every single large stratum of society, did not in the 1970s nor do they today share monolithic attitudes in music and virtually every other leisure and non-leisure pursuit. Full fucking stop.

Perhaps in Norway there is more unanimity among teenagers, but I can't say, as I have never visited there and have no insight otherwise. I note, however, that you and members of the black metal underground do share certain nuance-free, all or nothing modes of thinking. Is this a trait common to norwegians?

I ask you again: have you ever visited America?

― Veronica Moser, Friday, 11 May 2007 22:53 (nineteen years ago)

If there will ever possibly be any hip-hop song which

- contains absolutely no rap at all
- has a lot of compilated and sophisticated chord changes
- takes zero inspiration from R&B and a lot of inspiration from European classical music and Tin Pan Alley
- Puts a lot of emphasis on melody and harmony and absolutely no emphasis on rhythm at all
- the melodic parts are one hundred per cent originally composed, there is no sampling or turntablismn at all
- is throughoutly pre-composed with absolutely no improvisation
- takes one hundred per cent of its influences from European, European and absolutely nothing but European music

....then I'd probably like it.

-- Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Monday, April 21, 2003 2:55 PM

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Friday, 11 May 2007 22:55 (nineteen years ago)

yeah, i don't know where he gets that stuff. like i said, eagles had pretty broad appeal. and hard rock fans liked them. teens. budding yuppies/ex-hippies. lots of people. and, also, like i said, their country audience was vast. they were just BIG. like fleetwood mac, who also had a pretty wide-ranging audience of older/younger/male/female.

― scott seward, Friday, 11 May 2007 22:57 (nineteen years ago)

it is kinda ridiculous to argue that their audience was some monolothic bloc of Music (ie, WHITES ONLY) when they sold SO MANY GODDAMNED RECORDS. There were a LOT of folks into the Eagles.

I am not one of them, btw.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 11 May 2007 23:01 (nineteen years ago)

well, i would say most of their audience was/is white suburban/rural, but within that group there is variety amongst their fans.

― scott seward, Friday, 11 May 2007 23:03 (nineteen years ago)

no I meant, you know, MUSIC, the kind that is composed exclusively of the elements of white culture

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 11 May 2007 23:04 (nineteen years ago)

cuz, y'know, music is european

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 11 May 2007 23:04 (nineteen years ago)

Geir, when you come back here, I have a question for you: have you listened to much modern west African (or South African) music? Do you like it, or are you interested in it? I'm curious, because it tends to be very sweetly melodic, filled with complex harmonies, and all the rhythmic complexity comes from the instruments, not from a heavy beat.

The only thing I think you might not like about it is that the chord changes don't come in big obvious simple blocks, the way you like. More often there are a lot of very fast chord changes that cycle through into something more fluid, and I think you tend to like things that are gridded and basic (2 bars C, 2 bars Am, 2 bars F, 2 bars G) more than fluid things.

― nabisco, Friday, 11 May 2007 23:05 (nineteen years ago)

geir said he liked tupac once i think.

― M@tt He1ges0n, Friday, 11 May 2007 23:08 (nineteen years ago)

its true, he loves All Eyes On Me

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 11 May 2007 23:10 (nineteen years ago)

someone please rename board to I Love Geir, thx

― Johnny Hotcox, Friday, 11 May 2007 23:12 (nineteen years ago)

"We're an ammmmerikannnn band....buuuuuurrrrrp!"

http://www.eaglesfans.com/visuals/eagles_photo_galleries/70s/328c.jpg

― scott seward, Friday, 11 May 2007 23:19 (nineteen years ago)

"hello girlzzzzz!"

http://www.eaglesfans.com/visuals/eagles_photo_galleries/70s/328d.jpg

― scott seward, Friday, 11 May 2007 23:20 (nineteen years ago)

"we're comin' to yer town were gonna zzzzzzzzzz....."

http://www.eaglesfans.com/visuals/eagles_photo_galleries/70s/4245.jpg

― scott seward, Friday, 11 May 2007 23:27 (nineteen years ago)

Geir, when you come back here, I have a question for you: have you listened to much modern west African (or South African) music? Do you like it, or are you interested in it? I'm curious, because it tends to be very sweetly melodic, filled with complex harmonies, and all the rhythmic complexity comes from the instruments, not from a heavy beat.

Not much, no. But I like some of it. The chords tend to be a bit repetitive, but when they aren't it's nice. I tend to like music from East Africa (Mali, Senegal) better though.

I hated "Yeke Yeke" in 1988 but I like it now.

― Geir Hongro, Saturday, 12 May 2007 00:19 (nineteen years ago)

"East Africa (Mali, Senegal)"

ummm....

so that's music, politics, geography.....

― Frogman Henry, Saturday, 12 May 2007 00:27 (nineteen years ago)

must be the lack of beat in the music of "east africa". that throws him off cos otherwise, you know, the theory fits perfectly.

― Frogman Henry, Saturday, 12 May 2007 00:32 (nineteen years ago)

There is no lack of beat. But I guess if there is anything else than just a beat in addition, you will construe it as a "lack of beat"

― Geir Hongro, Saturday, 12 May 2007 17:29 (nineteen years ago)

Geir, Senegal is as far WEST as you can go in Africa without getting wet. Like, westernmost point of the continent. And Mali is right next to it. So I think your answer is "yes, I do enjoy some west African music." (I'm assuming you mean like Baba Maal and similar?)

I can imagine what you mean about the chords being "repetitive," but it's not actually a matter of repeating things -- it's just that the chord sequences are repeating close together (say, 4 chords every two bars, cycling) instead of repeating in a big grid, like in rock (say, one chord per bar). You should be careful about saying the rock you like is "more complex" -- it just happens to do its changes slowly enough for you to map them all out in your head, instead of doing a lot of subtle, complex stuff that goes over your head.

― nabisco, Saturday, 12 May 2007 22:06 (nineteen years ago)

Repeating a verse and a chorus doesn't count as being repetitive. One verse and one chorus is a full song.

― Geir Hongro, Saturday, 12 May 2007 22:29 (nineteen years ago)

I have no idea what you're talking about, which makes it kinda convenient that you don't either. :(

― nabisco, Saturday, 12 May 2007 22:32 (nineteen years ago)

Seriously, though, did you go off some kind of medication recently? The songs you like do not consist of one verse and one chorus. Usually they have two or three verses, two or three choruses, and a bridge. And the chord sequences of the verses repeat, as do the chord sequences of the choruses. They just happen to repeat in a boxy, obvious grid so that you notice all the changes.

― nabisco, Saturday, 12 May 2007 22:38 (nineteen years ago)

why do you try?

― scott seward, Saturday, 12 May 2007 22:50 (nineteen years ago)

do you think you are gonna have some eureka helen keller moment where geir becomes a real boy?

― scott seward, Saturday, 12 May 2007 22:51 (nineteen years ago)

hahaha

― lfam, Saturday, 12 May 2007 23:06 (nineteen years ago)

we all know that helen keller was a robot built by alexander graham bell to study vocal resynthesis

― lfam, Saturday, 12 May 2007 23:06 (nineteen years ago)

geir is a robot built by malcolm mclaren to study rock critics

― lfam, Saturday, 12 May 2007 23:08 (nineteen years ago)

Does the killfile thing still work on nu-ilm and could someone please email me a howto? Reading the Geir thread linked above finally convinced me I don't need another syllable typed from his account, whatever he is.

― blunt, Saturday, 12 May 2007 23:33 (nineteen years ago)

I must say this thread has turned very interesting in a don't-let-yourself-get-too-frustrated-just-enjoy-the-carnival-sideshow kind of way.

Geir, I enjoy your posts while rarely agreeing with them, but most people would say something like "my bad, didn't realise Senegal and Mali were West Africa, oops, sorry" or something along those lines, yet you completely ignore that fairly innocuous gaffe... why? Really? It's okay to admit human frailties you know. People might even listen to your arguments more if they could see you as more, I don't know, flexible or malleable or something.

― Lostandfound, Saturday, 12 May 2007 23:36 (nineteen years ago)

Also ending your comebacks with a smirking smiley no matter how grave the subject matter is sooo fucking irritating. "nyah-nyah-nyah, I'm not sad" yes you are

― blunt, Saturday, 12 May 2007 23:42 (nineteen years ago)

duh robots don't have emotions

― lfam, Saturday, 12 May 2007 23:44 (nineteen years ago)

that is why he has an easily programmable set of rules for enjoying music

― lfam, Saturday, 12 May 2007 23:44 (nineteen years ago)

he cannot take into account mystery or feeling

― lfam, Saturday, 12 May 2007 23:45 (nineteen years ago)

The Eagles hate has several different causes. People who liked punk/new wave despised them because they came to represent all that was wrong with stagnant American radio in the 70's and 80's. (Yeah, I know what’s changed?) So the disgust is as much symbolic as musical. Also for me the Eagles’ rock is too limp and their country isn’t gritty enough. By trying to straddle both genres they often, at their worst, fall right between the cracks. Don’t get me wrong, most of the stuff I like steals from a lot of different styles, but the Eagles often don’t pull it off as well as some others. Like a poster said up-thread, blame the lackluster drumming. But, when their stuff works, it still gets to me. When “Take It Easy” comes on the radio I turn the volume knob up to 11 and sing at the top of lungs. Yeah, it’s a great song. It’s because of that song I have this goofy theory about the Eagles really being more power pop than country.

Geir, you’re mental.

Fleetwood Mac pwns Eagles any day.

― leavethecapital, Sunday, 13 May 2007 00:16 (nineteen years ago)

fuckin' drums on one of these nights are PHAAAAAAAAAAAAT. and god that intro. and those guitars. heard it on klassic rok radio today in the car cruising by ocean park in the ford. so sweet.

but hell yeah fleetwood mac rules all over eagles. i'm not insane.

― scott seward, Sunday, 13 May 2007 00:40 (nineteen years ago)

Oh yeah, the intro to "One of These Nights" is one of my fave MOR moments ever. When the drumming works the Eagles pull it off. I better be careful here I can feel myself riding on that slippery slope.

― leavethecapital, Sunday, 13 May 2007 01:15 (nineteen years ago)

Usually they have two or three verses, two or three choruses, and a bridge.

Unless there is a middle-eight later on, the actual song consists of the verse and the chorus. The rest is the arrangement and the lyrics, and the arrangement and the lyrics aren't part of the song. The song is only the melody.

― Geir Hongro, Sunday, 13 May 2007 01:18 (nineteen years ago)

I love the Eagles, and never understood the dislike of them. Then again, I was born after they made their best music and I only own their Best Hits v. 1 + 2. But 'Life in the Fast Lane' is classic ("Lines on the mirror, lines on her face.")

― Mordechai Shinefield, Sunday, 13 May 2007 01:32 (nineteen years ago)

The song is only the melody.
The song is only the melody.
The song is only the melody.
The song is only the melody.

― Mr. Que, Sunday, 13 May 2007 01:37 (nineteen years ago)

Why hasn't Gram come up yet?

― iago g., Sunday, 13 May 2007 02:09 (nineteen years ago)

The Eagles are one of those bands I know a bunch of their music and never had to buy a record, it was just THERE. I think the rock stations in Indiana used to alternate between The Eagles, Bob Seger and John Mellencamp. It seemed that having a copy of Hotel California in the house was about as common as having a toaster when I was a kid.

Not listening to the rock radio for years has kind of re-opened up my ears to some classic rock staples. The guitar arrangement on the song Hotel California is really cool with both the twelve string and then the harmony solo.

The Young Ones and the Coen Brothers have proven that hatred of The Eagles is comedy gold.

Considering how that countrypolitan music is popular in parts of Africa, I bet they also like to jam to The Eagles.

― earlnash, Sunday, 13 May 2007 06:44 (nineteen years ago)

Good question about Gram. Early Eagles is sort of a cross-inbetween between Gram Parsons, Beach Boys and Badfinger.

― Geir Hongro, Sunday, 13 May 2007 14:04 (nineteen years ago)

Influences:

You're leaving out Ian Matthews (along with his band Plainsong and Matthews' Southern Comfort), who, in my opinion, created a superior fusion of country-rock, Brit folk-rock, West Coast pop, CSN&Y, and soft-rock -- and the Eagles were definitely listening to him. Like many in the L.A. scene, Matthews was one of the dudes the Eagles were hanging with, while taking copious notes. (We should also mention Poco and Rick Nelson here.)

― QuantumNoise, Sunday, 13 May 2007 14:18 (nineteen years ago)

The Eagles' arrangement of Steve Young's "Seven Bridges Road" is actually Matthews' arrangement, which Matthews recorded something like six years before the Eagles.

― QuantumNoise, Sunday, 13 May 2007 14:19 (nineteen years ago)

I don't know anything else by that act other than their version of "Woodstock", but listening to it, I can see the similarities.

― Geir Hongro, Sunday, 13 May 2007 14:26 (nineteen years ago)

Also, Crosby, Stills & Nash, obviously. (Not so much Young)

― Geir Hongro, Sunday, 13 May 2007 14:26 (nineteen years ago)

the Eagles have nothing to do with Badfinger. they come from Gram Parsons...

― whisperineddhurt, Sunday, 13 May 2007 15:47 (nineteen years ago)

there is a TON of poco in the eagles sound (and two ex-poco people in schmit and meisner). lyin' eyes is a total poco song.

― scott seward, Sunday, 13 May 2007 16:01 (nineteen years ago)

and, you know, i'm not saying that there is no burritos/parsons in poco too, there was. but they were their own thing as well as post-springfield cali cowboys. it's probably just easier to say that everything comes from the byrds though.

― scott seward, Sunday, 13 May 2007 16:04 (nineteen years ago)

i saw
little river band
heart
eagles at yale bowl
it was 102 degrees
my friend wanted to hold my hand
i wouldnt let him
i loove Heart
the Eagles are professional
they r good at rocking too
My friends dad is the long haired one
shes nice
her bf was the King Crimsons guy son
imagine the sex!
The eagles kinda ruled my world once

― danbunny, Sunday, 13 May 2007 16:07 (nineteen years ago)

they come from Gram Parsons...

i think parsons influence on country-rock and the eagles has been over emphasized in recent years.

― QuantumNoise, Sunday, 13 May 2007 16:11 (nineteen years ago)

was parsons mentioned in either of the recent laurel canyon books? how about ian matthews, he recorded in la, did he hang on the scene too?

― m coleman, Sunday, 13 May 2007 16:25 (nineteen years ago)

The Eagles were very much obviously influenced by Parsons, but there is a more polished pop element too, which they must have picked up elsewhere.

Plus they have said themselves that Beach Boys were an important influence re the harmony vocals.

― Geir Hongro, Sunday, 13 May 2007 23:25 (nineteen years ago)

Scott, I'm usually all about ignoring Geir, but there are actually times where thinking about how to respond to him helps me understand stuff about music! E.g., thinking about why he'd reject west-African music (even though it's very melodic and has plenty of chords), was fun, because it meant sorting out what's structurally different about it.

The thing that's hard to remember is that you just have to ask him random questions, and not actually try to do any back-and-forth with him. It's like talking to one of those internet AI/bot conversation programs, you're just curious what it'll respond with.

― nabisco, Sunday, 13 May 2007 23:28 (nineteen years ago)

Anybody remember that Poco "comeback" record in 1989 (for which Richard Marx wrote and produced a couple of numbers)?

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Monday, 14 May 2007 00:56 (nineteen years ago)

I have gotten the understanding that traditional West African music is just about drums. Which is why I don't consider it music. The pop music made by the likes of Salif Keita and Mory Kante is surely music.

― Geir Hongro, Monday, 14 May 2007 00:59 (nineteen years ago)

drums are musical!

― Mr. Que, Monday, 14 May 2007 01:00 (nineteen years ago)

No melody, no music.
No harmony, no music.

― Geir Hongro, Monday, 14 May 2007 01:02 (nineteen years ago)

no brains, no music

― Mr. Que, Monday, 14 May 2007 01:02 (nineteen years ago)

drums can be melodic!

― Mr. Que, Monday, 14 May 2007 01:02 (nineteen years ago)

Plus there is no word for music in that area. It's integrated into the word for "dance" because dance and the sounds made for dancing are considered one and the same. Which is fine and certainly a genuine artform. But music originally only existed in Europe and Asia.

(And, yes, tuned percussion, if tuned properly, can be melodic. That is, xylophones, marimba, glockenspiel etc)

― Geir Hongro, Monday, 14 May 2007 01:04 (nineteen years ago)

better start editing, geir:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definition_of_music

― scott seward, Monday, 14 May 2007 01:07 (nineteen years ago)

I don't accept any definition of music written after "The Rites Of Spring".

― Geir Hongro, Monday, 14 May 2007 01:11 (nineteen years ago)

hahaha

― lfam, Monday, 14 May 2007 01:11 (nineteen years ago)

RIP Geir Hongro.

― jim, Monday, 14 May 2007 01:12 (nineteen years ago)

i don't accept any definition of dance music written after "fizheuer ziheuer"

― lfam, Monday, 14 May 2007 01:20 (nineteen years ago)

Anyway, Rousseau and Voltaire did all neccessary thinking about what music was about. Particularly Rousseau when he realized that there was no opposition between melody and harmony, and they were mutually dependent on each other. Everyone who has tried to define music after those has failed.

― Geir Hongro, Monday, 14 May 2007 01:28 (nineteen years ago)

Especially you.

― blunt, Monday, 14 May 2007 01:36 (nineteen years ago)

But music originally only existed in Europe and Asia.

??????

― Mr. Que, Monday, 14 May 2007 01:44 (nineteen years ago)

And in North Africa. Other than that, Africans and Native Americans didn't have a word for music, they were just dancing. And dance isn't music. Music was invented by a bunch of maths experts in ancient Greece, and then spread to most of Asia and Europe.

― Geir Hongro, Monday, 14 May 2007 01:52 (nineteen years ago)

"Other than that, Africans and Native Americans didn't have a word for music, they were just dancing. And dance isn't music."

OMG, read a book!

― scott seward, Monday, 14 May 2007 01:56 (nineteen years ago)

Music was invented when the Asiatic branch of early Homo Sapiens interbred with a now-extinct race of Yeti. I mean come on, people.

― Jon Lewis, Monday, 14 May 2007 02:05 (nineteen years ago)

i don't accept any definition of music written after mankind started banging on trees with rocks. Humming, whistling, and various glottal "clicks" are the only REAL music.

― kingkongvsgodzilla, Monday, 14 May 2007 02:49 (nineteen years ago)

x-post

In the latest Entertainment Weekly a writer named Chris Nashawaty in his review of Wilco's Sky Blue Sky says about Jeff Tweedy, "he sounds like a bicentennial-era Don Henley--raspy, rich and right in the happy zone. This may be the best Eagles album the Eagles never made." A-

― curmudgeon, Monday, 14 May 2007 02:57 (nineteen years ago)

hey geir, do you ever listen to any recorded audio that isn't music per se, but that you find pleasure in hearing? do you choose to listen to it or do others play the recordings for you?

― lfam, Monday, 14 May 2007 03:14 (nineteen years ago)

Uh, Native Americans have a very old song tradition. SONGS. i.e., things that are sung. have melodies.

― Tim Ellison, Monday, 14 May 2007 03:41 (nineteen years ago)

that's why i told him to read a book. tribes used music for ALL kinds of stuff. healing, rituals, history, etc. and the melodic and harmonic elements could be EXTREMELY complex. DANCING? that's the shit that gives geir a bad name. got me mad, and i don't give a shit about nothing.

― scott seward, Monday, 14 May 2007 03:47 (nineteen years ago)

getting mad at someone who thinks that the greeks brought music to asia is pretty silly though.

― scott seward, Monday, 14 May 2007 03:54 (nineteen years ago)

One reason the Eagles are resented is because they were a counter cultural archetype from the 1960s (the long-haired, debauched rock and roll band) who made a complete jump to the mainstream and were ridiculously popular, yet they were not really part of the counter culture. On the contrary, they took an element of the counter culture and forever took the edge off of it.

They're the Pat Boone of 1970s rock and roll. They made something previously considered dangerous safer for church-going white kids, and for that they'll be hated (or at least until the inevitable time when the general public starts liking them ironically, at which point hipster and critical favor will swing and they'll be revised).

― Cunga, Monday, 14 May 2007 04:46 (nineteen years ago)

Popular rock and roll was dangerous in late 70s America and the Eagles made it safe? I don't think so. Cunga you're exaggerating a bit I'd say in your comparison of them to Pat Boone. The Eagles were one of many bands that dominated album rock radio at that time.

― curmudgeon, Monday, 14 May 2007 04:58 (nineteen years ago)

Well it wasn't the late 70s when they started having hits and I wouldn't say that it was so much about them making it happen so much as them being in the right place at the right time. I'd think that at the beginning of the early 70s, when sixties counter culture was entering the mainstream, that there was a door left open for a big rock band to sort of "normalize" previously stigmatized trends by marrying those trends with more traditional forms of pop. The Eagles sort of fit that bill in my opinion.

There's also this factor:

yeah, for 85% of the country they are the perfect band

Epitomizing mainstream taste = instant death for most

― Cunga, Monday, 14 May 2007 06:25 (nineteen years ago)

hey geir, do you ever listen to any recorded audio that isn't music per se, but that you find pleasure in hearing?

I don't know. Orbital and 2 Pac are obviously music as both have a lot of melodic and harmonic elements. Same about most of the rest of the electronica I actually like.

― Geir Hongro, Monday, 14 May 2007 09:57 (nineteen years ago)

that's why i told him to read a book. tribes used music for ALL kinds of stuff. healing, rituals, history, etc.

But never for just sitting down and listening to it. And they didn't have a word for it either (the link above even states they still haven't, which is kind of weird considering they have been exposed to music for hundreds of years now)

― Geir Hongro, Monday, 14 May 2007 10:00 (nineteen years ago)

There are lots of cultures with no specific word for "music." Not sure what your point is - they nevertheless had music and used it. "Sitting down and listening to it" is one use for music.

No harmony, no music.

Ergo, traditional middle eastern music is not music, indian classical music is not music, gamelan is not music, etc.

― Tim Ellison, Monday, 14 May 2007 15:04 (nineteen years ago)

Of course not, since none of them is composed or performed by white Europeans!

I've been struggling to establish the point of Geir for the last six years, so you're not alone in that respect.

― Marcello Carlin, Monday, 14 May 2007 15:18 (nineteen years ago)

some of Geir's points are interesting sometimes if you break them down a little but I mean the Greek understanding of music (they're the ones who coined the word, after all) was 1) not about "sitting down and listening," which is a pretty intensely European concept as far as I know and 2) very intensely rooted in rhythm and dance. So the whole "definition of music" schtick can't survive closer scrutiny; one should rather say "I have a limited definition of what constitutes music, and it's rooted in the growth of the European musical tradition." To insist that the word itself is somehow static, or bears a particular non-dance-connected meaning rooted in its own etymology, is either ignorant or disingenuous.

Dance is music - music is there for people to dance to, really, and was throughout the classical age as well; it's only around the rise of the romantics that the two become separable in the public imagination, and then only with a small segment of the public. For the most part, music has always been about dance; anything outside of that framework is an interesting development for sure but certainly not "the definition of music" nor any such nonsense.

― J0hn D., Monday, 14 May 2007 15:28 (nineteen years ago)

can I just abuse the word "intensely" some more here, thanks

intensely intensely intensely

― J0hn D., Monday, 14 May 2007 15:29 (nineteen years ago)

Anybody remember that Poco "comeback" record in 1989 (for which Richard Marx wrote and produced a couple of numbers)?

Y'know, Furay recently came out of retirement (he's a minister), because he thought Poco were getting overlooked in the who-invented-country-rock sweepstakes (which is such an overcooked debate, isn't it?) Anyway, I saw him at the Hardly Strictly Bluegrass Festical last summer and man oh man, he fucking rocked. His band was super sweet.

― QuantumNoise, Monday, 14 May 2007 15:30 (nineteen years ago)

Don't forget that Poco is also Ornette Coleman's all-time favourite rock band!

― Marcello Carlin, Monday, 14 May 2007 15:33 (nineteen years ago)

The guitar solo in "Hotel California" is great. Melodic and nice.

funny story about that. joe walsh and whoever the other guitarist was (don felder?) were in the studio listening to the playback of the solo they'd just recorded. don henley comes in, listens for a while, and says, "this is shit! we are not releasing a record with that solo on it! what the fuck are you guys playing?!" and DEMANDED they record a new solo. henley went off to get stoned, walsh and felder sat around NOT recording a new solo. henley came back, heard the exact same solo again and said, "oh man, that is SUCH an improvement! you guys really got your shit together!"

― Lawrence the Looter, Monday, 14 May 2007 15:43 (nineteen years ago)

whatever anybody says about the eagles, their anecdotes rule. what book is the best bio????

― QuantumNoise, Monday, 14 May 2007 15:49 (nineteen years ago)

the book I cited above, Marc Elliot's Take It To the Limit, is poorly written, contains numerous howler-prompting errors, and is cowardly with respect to the teenage prosititute OD matter. But its still the Eagles bio of record. Has lotsa good anecdotes, and Henley, who is deferred to by Eliott to the extent that some of the other Eagles reminiscences are not included, nonetheless absolutely despises it.

― Veronica Moser, Monday, 14 May 2007 16:00 (nineteen years ago)

Dance is music - music is there for people to dance to, really, and was throughout the classical age as well; it's only around the rise of the romantics that the two become separable in the public imagination, and then only with a small segment of the public.

Except there were several centuries in the medieval/renaissance eras where all the hot action was in religious music, both avant garde and conservative. Some of the craziest + most intricate Masses (like Ockeghem's) from that time took their basic thematic material from popular songs but what was done with it was very un-dance.

Though I guess a view of the music of those centuries is naturally biased to the stuff that survived in written form-- who knows what innovations were going on with no one transcribing them.

Anyway, just saying (or bloviating, sorry if so) that there had already been vanguards in Euro music divorcing themselves from the dance long before some of the Romantics went there.

― Jon Lewis, Monday, 14 May 2007 16:06 (nineteen years ago)

Don't forget that Poco is also Ornette Coleman's all-time favourite rock band!

Is this for real Marcello?? (I suspect that your use of the exclamation point means you're being sincere, but I'm never entirely sure...)

― Myonga Vön Bontee, Monday, 14 May 2007 16:13 (nineteen years ago)

...but didn't Ockeghem work with Henley on "All She Wants to Do is Dance"?

― QuantumNoise, Monday, 14 May 2007 16:14 (nineteen years ago)

No, you're confused, it was Josquin Des Prez, and he played the synth hook on Dirty Laundry. That whole LP features a crack team of Antwerp session hitters.

Ockeghem produced a couple of Windbreakers albums in the late 80's though.

― Jon Lewis, Monday, 14 May 2007 16:20 (nineteen years ago)

should challenge geir's statement about africa, too. there's the possibility that some melodic instruments (the xylophone and some string instruments) found throughout the continent do originate with asian influence, but i've never heard anyone say that the whole concept of melody in african music comes from outside.

― Tim Ellison, Monday, 14 May 2007 16:55 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah I would think that because of the natural harmonic series just about any civilization would be likely to discover melody for themselves (or be discovered by it if you like).

Whether they theorize the idea and make pictures of cosmic dulcimers or not.

― Jon Lewis, Monday, 14 May 2007 17:04 (nineteen years ago)

they didn't have a word for it either (the link above even states they still haven't, which is kind of weird considering they have been exposed to music for hundreds of years now)

they were exposed to cholera, too.

― Tim Ellison, Monday, 14 May 2007 17:09 (nineteen years ago)

Dance is music - music is there for people to dance to, really

Music is there for lots and lots of purposes, out of which dancing is just a small and extremely unimportant part. The most important purpose is the use that is music in itself as a geniune intellectual process.

― Geir Hongro, Monday, 14 May 2007 21:51 (nineteen years ago)

Except there were several centuries in the medieval/renaissance eras where all the hot action was in religious music, both avant garde and conservative.

In fact it isn't unlikely that the instrumental music that existed alongside the vocal music of the medieval era was meant for dancing.

In the renaissance there was also instrumental, non-religious music, but as much of it was silent and moody solo guitar music it probably didn't fit dancing very well.

― Geir Hongro, Monday, 14 May 2007 21:54 (nineteen years ago)

Geir Hongro, hardcore Platonist

also roflz @ "silent" music (esp coming from somone who hates John Cage, doesn't consider him "music" etc)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 14 May 2007 21:55 (nineteen years ago)

Ergo, traditional middle eastern music is not music, indian classical music is not music, gamelan is not music, etc.

There is a sense of harmony in Indian and Middle Eastern music, even though less complex than in European music (on the other hand, the melodies are more complex)

― Geir Hongro, Monday, 14 May 2007 21:56 (nineteen years ago)

Music is there for lots and lots of purposes, out of which dancing is just a small and extremely unimportant part. The most important purpose is the use that is music in itself as a geniune intellectual process.

You should tour the world and convert those savages to Christianity. That would be a perfect job for you.

― QuantumNoise, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 12:19 (nineteen years ago)

I keep clicking on this thread and remembering while it's loading that it's another Hongro coconut shy.

― Groke, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 12:21 (nineteen years ago)

the massive amount of made-up shit that geir relies on to make points is mind boggling

― deej, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 12:55 (nineteen years ago)

Don't forget that Poco is also Ornette Coleman's all-time favourite rock band!

WAHT?

― J, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:21 (nineteen years ago)

Geir Hongro, hardcore Platonist

I just pictured Geir with a Lil' Jon grill in a toga. ROFFLES.

"The overseers must . . . . must throughout be watchful against innovations in music and gymnastics counter to the established order, and to the best of their power guard against them, fearing when anyone says that that song is most regarded among men 'which hovers newest on the singer’s lips' [Odyssey i. 351], lest it be supposed that the poet means not new songs but a new way of song and is commending this. But we must not praise that sort of thing nor conceive it to be the poet’s meaning. For a change to a new type of music is something to beware of as a hazard of all our fortunes. For the modes of music are never disturbed without unsettling of the most fundamental political and social conventions."

Republic 424b-c

― J, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 13:26 (nineteen years ago)

dancing=rhythm--some say the latter's a big part of the musical experience. I wouldn't know because I always sit down and just watch the pretty girls out on the floor. y'know, Eagles' "The Long Run" has sort of a catchy guitar hook but it works mainly as a stop-start, er, dance number, not that I'd ever dance to it because I'm too busy thinking all the time.

― whisperineddhurt, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 14:10 (nineteen years ago)

as for that Plato quote--I mean Athens, Greece was what, about as big as Dickson, Tennessee or something? there might be a few more "modes" not to mention "social orders" these days and perhaps have been for a while; the Plato quote has good sense to it, in a way, but it's just elitist and we all know how American that is. if making people feel good and dance upsets a social order, how healthy can that order have been?

― whisperineddhurt, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 14:13 (nineteen years ago)

maybe geir is an alias for guiliani.

― QuantumNoise, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 14:23 (nineteen years ago)

I think that quote demonstrates that Plato was full of shit w/r/t music. That's why I posted it!

― J, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 14:36 (nineteen years ago)

if making people feel good and dance upsets a social order, how healthy can that order have been?

Cut footloose!!!

― Jon Lewis, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 14:48 (nineteen years ago)

my jaw is on the fucking floor.

geir's view of african music:
http://themot.org/gallery/d/62121-2/cannibals.gif

― the table is the table, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 15:03 (nineteen years ago)

really, there's just so much that's so wrong with what geir's saying that i'm rendered speechless.

― the table is the table, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 15:04 (nineteen years ago)

nearly....

if anyone is on the facebook and would like to join a group i've been part of for a bit, here is the link to "The Eagles: Worst Band Ever" group. http://oberlin.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2200142124.

― the table is the table, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 15:07 (nineteen years ago)

Someone set up a Geir Hongro faecbook group.

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 15:10 (nineteen years ago)

There is a sense of harmony in Indian and Middle Eastern music, even though less complex than in European music

Indian classical music has a drone. The tamboura has the equivalent of the tonic and the fifth in the Western scale. Having that omnipresent drone doesn't conform to the Western musicological definition of "harmony." Traditional Middle Eastern music is monophonic - even with ensembles, it's everyone playing the same melody (with maybe the bass playing fewer notes). So no, that's not "harmony" at all.

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:30 (nineteen years ago)

Someone set up a Geir Hongro faecbook group.

-- Dom Passantino, Tuesday, May 15, 2007 10:10 AM (1 hour ago)

yes plz

― deej, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:36 (nineteen years ago)

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