tHE aEROPLANE fLIES hIGH

omg I didn't know they did "My Blue Heaven"

Going to be a tough call to pick one.

I got this box set for my birthday when I was at the height of my Pumpkins obsession (I guess about 15 years old maybe...), after hankering after it for months and months. I was so damn pleased. Kudos to my parents, it's one of the very few times they've bought me music as a present and it was absolutely spot on.

My mom spontaneously bought this for me when she asked me to pick out something in the store and I, like a spoiled child, pointed to the most expensive thing. Actually listened to it a lot, though, as tedious as CD singles are.

Played "My Blue Heaven" for my grandma in her mobile home.

(Don't remember all these songs, but "1979" is probably the only one I still unreservedly like. Billy Corgan - and this really doesn't need to be said - is such a total wank.)

you left out "none of the above"

this poll is going to give me the same nightmares as the 'melon collie' one

Obviously "The Pistachio Medley." Especially that one bit.

23:00?? haven't heard it. but jeez, that seems a bit rich

I might be kidding.

had me guessing

"Set the Ray to Jerry" remains one of my favourite SP songs ever.

tough pick, but right now -- 'mouths of babes' barely winning over 'set the ray to jerry', 'said sadly', and 'clones (we're all)'. argh. and 'the boy'

Never heard of this item before. Christ Corgan is up himself.

Then again Trent Reznor could do something similar and I'd probably be all over it.

it's unfair comparing the bsides to the singles like this... "1979" obviously wins, then "zero", then it gets a little hazey but yeah "pastichio medley" probably 3rd

PENNIES

I kinda thought we would do this one by disc?

"Cherry"

This band used to be so good. It's hard to believe Billy wrote thirty great songs in two years, and then no good songs for the next ten.

"Set the Ray to Jerry", one of the best ten Pumpkins songs of all time.

title track

i never knew that a lot of these songs existed

i excluded the singles from my vote, otherwise 'thirty three' or '1979' wins easily

well, maybe not easily but it still felt unfair

this poll would be better without the singles on each cd

of the non-singles, my favorite is either "Jerry" or "Transformer" -- and voted for the latter 'cause it's gonna need more love, i can tell

This band used to be so good. It's hard to believe Billy wrote thirty great songs in two years, and then no good songs for the next ten.

I very much concur with Mr. Snrub on this point. All these b-sides from that era are fantastic. The huge slew of amazing riffs paraded for mere seconds each in Pastichio Medley alone always amazes and frustrates me.

protest vote for "the boy".

the covers are terrible! i'm glad they led me onto "clones (we're all)" & "destination unknown", but ... yikes.

Yet another vote for "Set the Ray to Jerry," which is my favorite SP track ever (I think it's the perfect union of the best elements of Gish and Siamese Dream).

I like "Medellia of the Gray Skies," too.

I think this set goes for a lot of money on eBay these days.

"Yet another vote for "Set the Ray to Jerry," which is my favorite SP track ever (I think it's the perfect union of the best elements of Gish and Siamese Dream."

I could never pin down exactly what it is that I like so much about this song, but that's a good description.

"Set the Ray to Jerry" really is pretty spectacular -- I'd credit it to that bass line and the way the chorus gently floats upward.

I kinda thought we would do this one by disc?

Nobody else took the initiative to start it, and I was getting antsy waiting around for it.

Of course it's easy to consider the a-sides as classics of the genre, but isn't it just more fun to vote for the b-sides? Don't be a shit: Vote for "Mouths Of Babes!!"

"Set the Ray to Jerry" has that "whores of my tears" line, which is a pretty high-ranking DO NOT WANT Corganism, yechh.

I have fond teenage memories of "Mouths Of Babes" (& most of the Zero single) - grrr angst, etc.

Okay, I just voted for "Mouths Of Babes."

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

I expected more people to care. oh well

Sweet MTV News clip promoting the release of TAFH. never seen this before, some great footage of the band rehearsing in Pumpkinland in the summer of '96 and Billy & James talking about the boxset.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tw6yYZrAqrk

poll results invalidated by inclusion of a-sides

i wouldve voted for PASTICHIO MEDLEY, so much excellent riffage

that's a great video flappy thank u for sharing

as much as i love almost all of these songs there's no question in my mind that the best thing here is "jerry"

I didn't understand the widespread fan adulation of Set the Ray to Jerry until a few years ago. It's still not one of my favorites, not even in my top 50 songs by BC, but it is a beautiful song.

I'm with you brimstead, I'd vote for the Pastichio Medley. Gonzo tape collage cut-up riff rollercoaster. Further proof within a boxset full of fantastic B-sides that the Pumpkins had incredible C-sides as well. We should do a poll for each section (and a proper poll of TAFH w/o the A-sides).

Of the proper songs, I'd pick The Aeroplane Flies High. er, ah shit, I can't not vote for Rotten Apples... or Meladori Magpie...

It's hard to believe Billy wrote thirty great songs in two years, and then no good songs for the next ten.

I know this opinion is nine years old but I'm getting mad about it right now

forget it simon, it's snrub

Billy's songwriting didn't significantly dip until Zeitgeist imo (and especially TBK). TheFutureEmbrace has great songs but he fucked them up in the studio.

"jerry" was so hyped before i ever heard it that i also struggled to understand it for years but it just like... nails this unbelievably beautiful vibe that doesn't resemble any other pumpkins song (or many other songs i can think of). i wish there was a band that just sounded like that

i think his songwriting dipped to a degree, to the point where his quality control issues became more apparent circa machina and zwan, whereas it sorta doesn't matter between siamese dream/pisces iscariot and mellon collie/aeroplane which songs are on which, because they're all at least good

there are many wonderful zwan songs and they are not on the zwan record (which i like)

Mary Star of the Sea is a flawed & compromised record but if you take the best of it (title track, Settle Down, Of a Broken Heart, Lyric, Come with Me, Endless Summer, I guess Honestly) and the far superior live-only songs (Chrysanthemum, Rivers We Can't Cross, Cast a Stone, My Life + Times, A New Poetry), there's an album or two of songs that rival his '90s golden streak.

god i wish he had made that record. though i'm not a big fan of "of a broken heart" or "endless summer" tbh

"lyric" is such a fucking jam though

well he's sitting on ~65 unreleased Zwan songs, been teasing those since the Pumpkins reissue campaign began in 2011. but he said recently that he'd only get around to it once the label/legal issues holding up the Machina reissue are resolved.

amazing guitar tones on that record too, even though it sounds kinda horrible generally

but yeah, like Machina, MSOTS was hobbled by Billy second-guessing himself and thinking too much about radio, the audience, singles... I mean there's that ridiculous quote from early 2003 where he's talking about how MSOTS is "the pop record, the one for them, next one will be the arty record." yeah great, that really worked out Bill

xp yeah the guitars on the title track are incredible, but it suffers from that awful aughts brick walling / super compression

i also would like to rep for "declarations of faith" which i think is p underrated even though it probably falls in with the more obvious pop songs on the album. it sort of like what if "i of the mourning" was a happy pop song imo

hm maybe i'll bump the zwan thread

Ages since I've listened to the Zwan record by my favourite song was always 'Ride a Black Swan' - gorgeous bridge, amazing drumming throughout.

I will revisit that song based solely on your I of the Mourning comparison. that's in my top 10. Something about it has really grown on me the past ~3 years. the second verse is one of my favorites he's ever written ("I blow the dust off my guitar...")

"i of the mourning" is prob my fav pumpkins song just for the ending alone. it also always sounded incredible live

Someone on netphoria did a cool tempo analysis of a bunch of Pumpkins songs a while ago. "I of the Mourning" stuck out as a song that gradually increases in tempo throughout and never dips, the whole song is climbing to that climax

During the original run of the Pumpkins, they maybe put out a small handful of tracks that were less than great, but most of the stuff they put out was gold.

The Zwan record could have been better, but there's a lot I like on it - 'Lyric' is a great song, 'Ride a Black Swan' too.

I'm not much into either of Corgan's solo LP's or Zeitgeist ... there's some neat songs in the Teargarden by Kaleidyscope stuff and love Oceania.

I generally think he's past his peak as a songwriter but Corgan's antics get on my wick these days.

'Declarations of Faith' is a good obe too!

'I of the Mourning' has always been a favourite, I love the new wave-y guitar sound on it. I remember a lot of people being down on MACHINA at the time, and it was frustrating because it isn't that bad a record. Same with Adore.

*one

i love Billy's description of the guitar sound on Machina: "Judas Priest plus Simple Minds." that really comes across in IOTM, especially the bass & sheet distortion + very 80s chorus...

lol, i love the transition between the cure and the pumpkins' versions of "a night like this" in that clip above. when it switches over it sounds like someone's subtly pushing their finger against a spinning record.

lol. also the transition between og "destination unknown" and their cover sounds like it's shifting into a shitty demo

I really love their cover of Depeche Mode's 'Never Let Me Down Again' ... I think the band themselves were full of praise for it too.

^^ It's a good one. I had that 4x7" singles box for quite some time, till I swapped it for cash. It was the b-side of Rocket 7", no?

Heart you Flappy, but Set the Ray to Jerry is top 10 SP material man.

Clip is great. Painfully great. How did he get so lost etc

it's a great song, and I agree with Brad that it stands alone in SP's massive body of work, it really expresses a very specific yet ineffable emotion... still not one that moved me like 50+ other BC songs... but it is a gem

How did he get so lost etc

Forced breakup of original lineup very shortly after that rehearsal was filmed + the lukewarm reception of Adore broke him. I love Ogilala because it's the first time since Adore where he's been completely open and let himself be vulnerable. Every other record, and I love a lot of them, is clouded either by conceit or second-guessing. Adore is a remarkably honest record, and once he got whipped for it, he went from shell to shell for each project for the next 20 years.

never underestimate the ability of a wildly insecure paranoiac/egomaniac to get lost as hell imo

yep

Really want to dig for the cassette I played religiously circa 94/95 when doing my paper route. All pre-Gish songs. Now that would be a poll!

(got the cassette through Listessa, the SP mailing list when I just got online. How that is 23 years ago right now, I've no clue...)

*mailing list I was one when I just got online

going off purely by memory i think i'd vote for "my eternity" in that poll

Good call! 'On My Own' was the one that always devastated me.

i know it's popular to hate on zeitgeist but i liked it a lot at the time even though it was a total miscalculation in mood. (it's possible that i wanted it to be much better than it is.) "that's the way (my love is)" is a great song and single imo, and i still think "ma belle" is the best sp mk2 song

can't see putting myself through "united states" again though, woof

oh but "bring the light" is wonderful imo

Ah I see, the big discussion was over here.

"jerry" was so hyped before i ever heard it that i also struggled to understand it for years but it just like... nails this unbelievably beautiful vibe that doesn't resemble any other pumpkins song (or many other songs i can think of). i wish there was a band that just sounded like that

Pretty much as soon as I got that single at the time of release and heard that I was all "Well this is ridiculously perfect." Maybe the closest thing to it was "Glynis" but that's not even really true in terms of actual construction or arrangement -- it's just a question of vibe as you say. That song honored a friend and acknowledged final loss. This one seems to create warmth, a space that can be filled, rather than an unavoidable gap.

"i of the mourning" is prob my fav pumpkins song just for the ending alone. it also always sounded incredible live

It did indeed.

Glynis most def closest to Jerry.

i know it's popular to hate on zeitgeist but i liked it a lot at the time even though it was a total miscalculation in mood. (it's possible that i wanted it to be much better than it is.) "that's the way (my love is)" is a great song and single imo, and i still think "ma belle" is the best sp mk2 song

Posting here because there are two BC threads up already... new footage from the pre-VMAs '96 interview with Tabitha Soren about Jimmy's firing & Jonathan's death. Never seen any of this, & it's from the same channel. They've been uploading tons of archival stuff in the past few days that I've never heard or seen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjO0Xou_RPg

Spoke too soon - first 3 minutes is new, rest is the footage that's been out there for a while, albeit in much better quality.

and yeah that was Matt Walker rehearsing with them in the first video too, not Jimmy

there are some great riffs on the pre-Gish stuff. like "nothing and everything" and "c'mon"

Set the Ray To Jerry is probably the best Mellon Collie B-side but I don't really get the hype, it's quite good but not incredible. there are some Bloc Party tracks with fairly similar feelings I think. most of the other B-sides seem like B-sides for a reason though.

I always thought PENNIES was the best b-side of theirs from this era. Could've been a hit single along the lines of MUZZLE or 33 if shipped to radio.

Those MTV clips bring back memories. God how I'd used to watch The Week in Rock hoping for any mention of SP back then.

About the Mellon Collie B-sides, I think we can ALL agree that "The Boy" was Iha's best SP song by a wide country mile.

Iha's best song is by far Blew Away

"Go" is pretty. "...Said Sadly" is nice in its own way. I thought his voice was a bit weak on "Blew Away," but I do like the song.

Watching those clips flappy posted reminds me how great Iha was as a foil to Billy's bloviating in interviews.

I'd agree on 'The Boy' but '...Said Sadly' is lovely too. Listening to the Zwan album on YouTube last night led me to Iha's first solo album which I'd never heard before - pretty mediocre but there were a couple of nice '60s pop styled songs towards the end.

of the studio versions of James songs, I prefer Blew Away, but The Boy is sick, especially this super fast new wave version: https://archive.org/details/tsp1994-06-18.shn/tsp1994-06-18t04.shn#

At least 6 people singing praises for “set the ray to jerry” and only two votes :(

I think pennies and set the ray are my favorite songs from this era and probably their whole caralogue which might sound crazy considering they’re not even on the album. I hate that some songs like “shine in our spit” or “take me down” or “lily” made it when they should’ve been b-sides instead of those two.

At any rate it’s impressive how creative this era of the band and Corgan was, they had songs to make at least 3 good to great albums and nowadays he struggles to make a decent song.

ha i've never heard Fuck You (An Ode to No One) referred to as "Shine in Our Spit." that's one of my favorites though, consistently amazing live performances & one of BC's best recorded solos.

Oh yes it’s “fuck you (an ode to noone)” haha forgot the name and remembered that part of the lyrics.

i revisited all these b-sides last night and “mouths of babes” is just a wildly good song, hook upon hook upon hook

I like it too but I always thought it was too jarring after “for noone” maybe it’s the sequencing of it which I’m not fond of.

it’s like if “where boys fear to tread” were more than just a riff

WBFTT is a riff AND the coolest intro of all time

How fucking dope is that feedback that lets loose just before the main riff kicks in? It sounds like a damn flute

Mouths of babes sounded like it was recorded earlier to me, like it totally could have fit on Siamese Dream

thread has inspired me to put on that massive SP b-sides collection that's on Spotify. don't think I'd heard "Beginning is the End is the Beginning" since its use in the Watchmen trailer, which was actually pretty clever imo

How fucking dope is that feedback that lets loose just before the main riff kicks in? It sounds like a damn flute

― brimstead, Thursday, November 2, 2017 10:37 AM (thirteen minutes ago)

i ain’t denying this

Mouths of Babes is so much fun to play on guitar. Riffs upon riffs. I always loved its sister song, Marquis in Spades, a lot too.

some comments on both songs:

"During the year and a half of Siamese Dream touring, we tried to work on all sorts of new songs. From all the endless jams and tapes, this song and 'Marquis in Spades' were the only ones that survived. A favorite at soundcheck with nonlyrics forever. Another heavy metal victim, or at least too much like a Siamese Dream track." -BC (Guitar World 1/97)

"The band never really liked (Marquis in Spades). They were always snickering at it, but I always liked its sheer brutality. It was recorded live on my 8-track cassette recorder, on which I've done almost all my demos since before Gish." -BC (Guitar World 1/97)

On the playing god thread I did this experiment trimming 10 songs and dividing it into 4 parts, 2 “rocking” ones and 2 melancholic ones (I kept Lily even when it’s one of my least favorites :/)

A side

1. Where Boys Fear to Thread
2. Bodies
3. Muzzle
4. 1979
5. Here Is No Why

B side

1. To Forgive
2. Pennies
3. Thirty Three
4. Thru The Eyes of Ruby
5. We Only Come Out at Night

C side

1. Set the Ray to Jerry
2. Love
3. Zero
4. Bullet With Butterfly Wings
5. Jellybelly

D side

1. Galapogos
2. Stumbleine
3. Porcelina of the Vast Oceans
4. Lily (My One and Only)
5. Tonight Tonight

huh, that’s pretty good! i can hear the transitions in my head and they’re pretty seamless

iirc the only worthless MCIS b-side (not counting the covers) is "Blank"

solid list, interesting sequencing choices. Tonight, Tonight is an interesting closer

I wouldn't change anything about MCIS though- the sequencing is perfect & pretty funny, I feel like that aspect of the record is really overlooked. Tonight, Tonight followed by Jellybelly is hilarious, and then on disc 2 an even more extreme example- 1979 followed by Tales of a Scorched Earth.

I agree that MCIS is really well-sequenced even if I have small quibbles with what made it in and what didn't

the 50+ songs from this era are really fun to resequence in various permutations though

the sequencing in the original is all over the place! Sometimes it works sometimes it’s too much, depends on your mood I guess and there’s so many moods in this album. It’s like a soundtrack to bipolar disorder.

That sequence above is how I arranged the album on my itunes, makes it so much easier to digest. I love “tonight tonight” as a closer.

I've always loved the gradual, pillowy comedown of the last few songs on the original. Really ties in beautifully with the artwork.

the original vinyl sequencing from 1996 is pretty cool, much more of a laid-back / ease-in sort of pacing compared to the double CD

lol I have never liked that sequence

Yes I know! But but but... Tonight Tonight is very histrionic, it has an orchestra and it explodes and then it comes down to a hush, if the album was a theatrical play it would be a perfect way to close, with a celebration! every actor comes out at first, they slowly fade away and at the end there’s only the protagonist saying a farewell.

feels more like a first disc closer to me

Are there many albums that have singles as closers? I’m trying to think of one but can’t. That could’ve been cool too.

xxxxpost:

Yeah, and stylistically there's portions of the second CD that foreshadow Adore, which is part of the reason I couldn't believe folks were so down on it. Stuff like 'Once Upon a Time' would have fit in snugly on Mellon Collie disc 2.

yeah Simon, i mean like i said i love the album as it is and have never regularly listened to an alternative sequence, but it's interesting to see what choices BC made in that sequence & what you can infer from it- for example, all the songs about Courtney Love (other than Bodies) are on the "Midnight" side: WBFTT, Zero, Fuck You, Love, X.Y.U.

Wait, the whole point of "Tonight Tonight" IS that it's (almost) the opening number. It signals an experience is on, melodramatically.

Are there many albums that have singles as closers? I’m trying to think of one but can’t. That could’ve been cool too.

― ✖✖✖ (Moka), Thursday, November 2, 2017 2:20 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

tons off the top of my head: The Bends, In Utero, Insomniac, Merriweather Post Pavilion, Yeezus, Washing Machine...

we have a thread about that for sure

I also can't think of any place where swapping in a song from TAFH into MCIS would work. Love has always been my least favorite song on there, but it works really well as a transition between Fuck You and Cupid de Locke. Love is a rocker but it's drenched in all that flange, and BC's "cyber-affixed" vocal. it's a rocker but it has a goofiness about it that Mouths of Babes and Marquis in Spades don't.

I love Love but tbh I have never liked Cupid de Locke

this is the sequence I'm trying out today - preserves a lot of the original for some stretches
https://open.spotify.com/user/suckerblues/playlist/3z2Hd4z3a4inBsHRAmIHky

I'm the other way around, I love 'Cupid de Locke', but as much as I love the way 'Love' sounds, I don't think much of it as a song.

I like it. The muzzle>33>pennies>set the ray>porcelina sequence is particularly nice.

^^ That's the best part of that sequence, I agree.

Love Cupid, and I seem to be of the minority that really loves Farewell & Goodnight too. "A silver rain will wash away..." The song ends ambiguous, with a question mark ("and you can tell"), as if it is of two minds, in doubt. Despite every member contributing. Do not see a lot of people stanning for it.

oh i love that song, but it'd be one of the first to go in any edited tracklist i did

always loved that line “The sun shines but I don’t” , sums up the record

any song but that one closing the record is heretical imho, the only convincing show of band unity in their entire catalogue

otm

the few performances of them doing it in ‘96 with everyone singing their parts are really beautiful

also I've never been that wild about "WBFTT," "Bodies," or "In the Arms of Sleep"

what

excuse me

"bodies"???

Whaaaa... How can you not love "In The Arms of Sleep"? One of the best cuts on MCIS!

ITAOS has some of BC's most annoying vox and lyrics, one of the few songs of his I can't get through as an adult

ah that’s like my relationship to “rotten apples”

You make me feel I *suck* at being an adult, because I still love that song ;_;

"Suffer my desire" is one for the ages. It's a motto.

Rotten Apples still rules, too. Despite bad memories attached to that song.

also feel like Galapagos nails a pretty similar vibe but is a way better song and renders it redundant on the first disc

Ok that might have come across weird and gross, I don't suffer desire, but it's def relatable. And I love the flute, whistley sound, that sounds like last breath, ghouls gathering around a death bed.

"Carve out your heart for keeps in an old oak tree"

Slays, both lyrically and in delivery.

"suffer my desire for you" is yeah p much exactly the line and delivery I can't deal with in 2017

i'd like to believe that "rotten apples" rules but billy sings it like dogshit. it's really apparently when sequenced next to "medelia" which is one of my favorite vocals he's ever done

"galapogos" is a perfect song imo

yes, top 10 so songs probably. medelia was the last thing I cut from my sequence tho I could probably swab out tonite reprise

lol *sp *swap

i'd like to believe that "rotten apples" rules but billy sings it like dogshit. it's really apparently when sequenced next to "medelia" which is one of my favorite vocals he's ever done

re: “Suffer my desire” - so much of MCIS is sung from different perspectives and attitudes. The super whiny needy vocal performance fits the super whiny pathetic lyrics. Same can be said for the naive nihilism of Tales of a Scorched Earth (“you’re all whores and I’m a fag” / “I lie just to be real, id die just to feel, why do the same old things keep on happening???????”)

the ludicrous sonics of TOASE wallpaper all other considerations for me, also lol at the Doom sample

the Doom sample is in Where Boys Fear to Tread (recurs several times but first happens right before Billy sings the first line)

These abbreviations are doing my head in, though it's a very, very SP thing. TOASE? :/

oic

oh fuck you're right on the sample

it's funny how the drumming on the destination unknown cover is boring given the two bands' drummers

feeling these the most these days

"Pastichio Medley" (always)
"Mouths of Babes" (massive riff, tune)
"Rotten Apples" (this one just feel right)
"The Last Song" (don't know if i would find it as moving if corgan sr. wasn't playing on it)
"Meladori Magpie" (wonderful tune)
"God" (rawk)
"Marquis in Spades" (rawwwwwwk, great lead guitar)

"mouths of babes" is perfect

I guess this is as good a place as any to announce on ILX that I haven't listened to SP or Billy since July and don't intend to listen to either willfully until, at the very earliest, January 1, 2030.

my opinion about "rotten apples" upthread is wrong

wait flappy i must know why

I became obsessed with The Smashing Pumpkins in January 2010 after 17 years of being a very casual fan. In Billy, and the Pumpkins, I saw everything I wanted to do as a musician and a performer. Literally every detail: the awe-inspiring work ethic, the aesthetics, the mix of humor & power, the frankness and honesty compared to other more coy Gen X artists, the clothes, his playing style, his gestures, his tics. And, obviously, the music and lyrics. It was beyond just being a huge fan, it was a dead end. For years I felt it was impeding me creatively and I think my sudden superfandom in 2010 really derailed my own work. So after nearly a decade of superfandom, where I evangelized and acted as a surrogate defender of maligned artist at his lowest point (does it get any worse than the Teargarden era?).

I'm still regularly inspired by artists I've loved for years, and songs I've heard a million times, but Billy is different. The Pumpkins weren't giving me anything anymore, and they took up space in my brain, so I expelled them for a decade. I feel great.

Fitting for The Aeroplane Flies High thread, because that was the last song I listened to back in July.

Discussion of said band may continue at a moderate pace, Instagram may be accessed, Q&A's may be read.

I felt like I was burning a dead circuit, for years.

is there like a 12-step for that or did you just white-knuckle it

did you guys know that despite all my rage i am still just a rat in a cage?

we know buddy don't beat yourself up

flappy i wanna hear your band

i should probably poll this again without the a-sides.

Flappy just think of all of Billy's appearances on Joe Rogan you can binge in 2030.