Goth vs. Grunge POLL

Grunge!

I wouldn't have gotten into music if it hadn't been for Nirvana/Grunge. 1991 was an eye-opening year for me. Discovering all this music I didn't know existed. Was amazing saving up the pennies then going into Glasgow looking for all this Sub Pop, SST etc music. It also led me to checking out non-guitar music i suppose and just discovering a whole universe of music i didn't know existed. And I'm still searching that universe now.

That's wonderful for you, but grunge ruined the entire musical universe for me. Once Nirvana broke it big, British bands started being less distinctive. It broke a key wall down between the UK & US that I wish had never been broken down, to be honest.

The music press was actually good when grunge 1st broke
http://archivedmusicpress.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/the-sub-pop-rosta-18th-march-19891.jpg

http://archivedmusicpress.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/the-sub-pop-rosta-18th-march-19891.jpg

I just wanted the British bands to sound British, man. ;_;

Blur kept it going for some years, hell a lot of bands did. (Radiohead are my heroes to this very day) but yeah, even Blur finally capitulated with the likes of Song 2. It ruined the whole thing. That song didn't even make them half as much money here in the US as I think they'd hoped for (or their record label).

Will the ILX goths who claim they are not goths prove it by not voting goth?

That's a damn good question.

If by Goth you mean Bauhaus, Specimen, Alien Sex Fiend, the Nephilim, the Sisters, the Mission, the March Violets, Red Lorry Yellow Lorry, etc. then GOTH by a morbid, wavey-arm-dancing country fuckin' mile.

But if by Goth you mistakenly mean Joy Division, Swans, Killing Joke, then you can fuck right off.

I kid, I kid.

the goths will vote goth but deny being a goth 3 times
xposts

the mission would be a good reason to vote against goth as much as STP would be to vote against grunge!

I think pfunk is right here, it's all about denial on some folks' part.

By the same token, were any of the original grunge corps proud of the label? I can't remember reading anything wherein Kim Thayil or Mark Arm said anything like "Fuck yeah, bud, we play GRUNGE!"

do they ever in any scene that gets a label?

Grunge was good until someone invented that name. (xpost)

once the corporate labels get involved in anything and commercialise something the originals never want to be part/blamed of what they created.

do they ever in any scene that gets a label?

Fair point.

Grunge was good until someone invented that name. (xpost)

Fair-er point.

you can bet the goths from the 80s into Sisters,Fields et al dont want anything to do with whatever is called goth now.

V. true.

I know people into goth in the 80s who 10 years ago hated marilyn manson fans calling themselves goths

But that's probably true of metalheads as well. The dudes who were first into Venom and Raven and all that NWOBHM stuff must listen to crap like Dragon Force today and smirk derisively. Or perhaps I'm just projecting.

then again i knew a pagan who hated people calling themselves goths just because they liked sisters and fields etc.

But that's probably true of metalheads as well. The dudes who were first into Venom and Raven and all that NWOBHM stuff must listen to crap like Dragon Force today and smirk derisively. Or perhaps I'm just projecting.

naw i think you're right. They probably dismissed the original 90s scandinavian BM bands as being derivitave just like the fans of early 90s BM hate wolves in the throne room or xasthur now.

Most people just seem to reach an age where they suddenly start disliking new music and go on about how it wasn't as good as *insert your own year here*

Grunge was good until someone invented that name.

As was goth.

For every band that might be possibly named goth (yes even Joy Division) there are about 7 bands who amateurishly attempted to hitch a bandwagon they never even understood in the first place. And for these, I apologize. Doesn't stop me appreciating the essence of what goth is, the aesthetic of it, the culture surrounding it.

Most people just seem to reach an age where they suddenly start disliking new music and go on about how it wasn't as good as *insert your own year here*

That's me summed-up, then.

you can say the exact same for grunge
xpost

I know I would rather be grunge-generation than nu-metal or 2000's 3rd wave emo generation.
But then maybe I'm one of those people I mentioned. But then I still love searching for new music n stuff.

do post-punk bands hate being called post-punk?

I'd guess the ones who actually thought of themselves as punks might.

I dunno, you don't have to become jaded: my first gig was Saxon supporting Motorhead, and I like Xasthur just fine.

But, by the same token I've ALWAYS disliked most new music!

I'd love to stay here and participate, but I have to take my three year old to go see the live "Thomas the Tank Engine" experience. Oh how times have changed. VOTE GOTH.

I feel for you, Alex. VOTE GOTH!

Sounds more fun than a goth festival ;)
xpost

Just be thankful it's not the live "Dora the Explorer" experience.

Poll captures the essence of ILM in the 09.

well it took 40 posts but there we go

At least you don't have to deal with The Happy Gang. Who probably have at least one Scottish post-punk group in their past.

I hate having to vote w/Bimble because the whole "music was so awesome when I was young" mindset is ultra-toxic and destructive and cynical and grotesque and so counter to the spirit of music itself that I want to spend my whole life battling against said mindset with any weapons available, but I can't front, goth made for better music & also was 1,000,000x sexier

What do you have against Bimble?

Bimble often posts about new bands he really likes. Such as Blue Sabbath Black Cheer. He looks for new music as much as anyone.

He looks for new music as much as anyone.

science indicates that Bimble is to the eighties what Geir is to the Beatles

I feel like I remember an interview where Nirvana were asked what style of music they play. They responded, however ironically, with something to the effect of "We're, whatever, we're the Seattle sound. We're grunge".

well yeah he does love the eighties but he definitely posts about newer bands.
Anyway Geir always seemed to be a really big 80s fan as much even if more than bimble.

(and I have nothing personally against Bimble, that'd be Bimble's preferred way of thinking of things ["My defenders! My enemies!" etc. more ridiculous grade schoolisms]. I have profound ideological difference with the way Bimble thinks about music.)

A lot of people hate grunge for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-grunge rather than the actual grunge.

goth articles from melody maker
http://archivedmusicpress.wordpress.com/category/melody-maker/page/13/

and below
http://archivedmusicpress.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/kurt-suicide-cover-16th-april-1994.jpg

One careless owner, eh? That's one unattractively stained copy.

Mine is up the loft somewhere so probably not looking so great either

someday the people who didn't take care of their copies of melody maker will fucking get what's coming to them, that's for sure

Hah! I'd actually like to see some old back numbers of Sounds, either scanned up on a site or even on CD. The actual paper takes up way too much room.

im sure there's a site somewhere with scans of sounds

here's some NME ones http://archivedmusicpress.wordpress.com/category/nme/

http://archivedmusicpress.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/kurt-cobain-on-the-cover-of-nme-8th-april-1995.jpg?w=410&h=568

http://archivedmusicpress.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/kurt-cover-16th-april-1994-low-res.jpg?w=410&h=574

http://archivedmusicpress.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/the-nephilim-by-fields-of-the-nephilim-3rd-sept-1988.jpg

Carl McCoy looks a bit like Cobain in that pic.

Did you and your 3 year old enjoy thomas the tank engine experience?

It was an endurance test to be sure. I barely survived the merchandise table with wallet intact (t-shirt for my son: $25, spinning light-thingy with Thomas logo: $20, plastic Thomas plate: $10). The show was louder than Motorhead and steeped in bad, ersatz dinner-theatre show tunes with little/no real relation to the Thomas series. Still, Oliver had fun.

that's all that matters. I bet you secretly enjoyed some of it though!

any old goths there?

Thomas himself was a goth, it is not widely known. His engine parts were born in the molten fire amidst sounds not unlike those that served as percussion on some early Nitzer Ebb sessions.

xpost

I hate having to vote w/Bimble because the whole "music was so awesome when I was young" mindset is ultra-toxic and destructive and cynical and grotesque and so counter to the spirit of music itself that I want to spend my whole life battling against said mindset with any weapons available, but I can't front, goth made for better music & also was 1,000,000x sexier

― Just one thing I was thinking about as I was getting on the copter (J0hn D.), Sunday, April 19, 2009 1:52 PM (4 hours ago) Bookmark

Okay, see, I didn't want to even return to the boxing ring of this thread once we let the um...bulls out (still trying to think of the right animal, there, not sure bull is best, but for now...)

John, really I KNOW you can't deal with my 80's nostalgia enthusiasm. I know. But it's just too bad.

Because there were a few moments back in the day (late '84 as it happens) when I heard things like Smiths' "This Charming Man" for the first time on the radio at the same time as Echo & Bunnymen's "Killing Moon" for the first time and ESPECIALLY the Cocteau Twins. And I don't see how in the living hell I am EVER, I repeat EVER going to hear ANYTHING again in my entire lifetime as mindblowing as the first time I heard those bands. Sorry if that bursts your bubble. Deal with it. Point me to 2009's The Smiths. Point me to 2009's Cocteau Twins. I'll laugh in your face.

Besides, what I've naturally gained from this is a knowledge of all kinds of cool obscure 80's bands you've most likely never heard of.

One thing I will agree, with you on, though: we were much sexier then. I saw pictures of myself from only ten years ago recently, and I must say it was a shock. For one thing, I still had a full head of hair then.

Bimble often posts about new bands he really likes. Such as Blue Sabbath Black Cheer. He looks for new music as much as anyone.

― pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Sunday, April 19, 2009 1:55 PM (4 hours ago) Bookmark

Also pfunk, haha, I think you're a great guy, really. We're good friends off this board even, and I salute your for trying to defend me here, but let's call a spade a spade. I rarely get out of the 80's and I rarely try. How the hell the last Grace Jones album was so palatable to me I have no idea. You did try to introduce me to some things, though, and I salute you for that.

Thomas himself was a goth, it is not widely known. His engine parts were born in the molten fire amidst sounds not unlike those that served as percussion on some early Nitzer Ebb sessions.

Siouxsie Sioux covered a Beatles song , Ringo Starr was in the Beatles and he voiced Thomas on the TV series, so Thomas is part of goth heritage clearly.

I grew up in the 80s, and have a strong sentimental/nostalgic attachment to the underground music of the era. But J0hn's right: A myopic, singleminded focus on the past isn't good (not sure if Bimble is that focused on the 80s; I know he likes new-wave/post-punk/goth). There's a lot of good music being made in every era.

LOLOLOL Thomas the Tank Engine was a GOTH! OH MY GOD THE UNTOLD STORY!!!

Sign it up for a fucking miniseries on TV right now!

I grew up in the 80s and hated it at the time mostly. The underground music i didn't hear until the next decade.

thomas and the tank engine on TV ruled however

Thomas himself was a goth, it is not widely known. His engine parts were born in the molten fire amidst sounds not unlike those that served as percussion on some early Nitzer Ebb sessions.
Thomas himself was a goth, it is not widely known. His engine parts were born in the molten fire amidst sounds not unlike those that served as percussion on some early Nitzer Ebb sessions.
Thomas himself was a goth, it is not widely known. His engine parts were born in the molten fire amidst sounds not unlike those that served as percussion on some early Nitzer Ebb sessions.
Thomas himself was a goth, it is not widely known. His engine parts were born in the molten fire amidst sounds not unlike those that served as percussion on some early Nitzer Ebb sessions.

Siouxsie Sioux covered a Beatles song , Ringo Starr was in the Beatles and he voiced Thomas on the TV series, so Thomas is part of goth heritage clearly.

Robert Smith modelled himself on The Fat Controller

needs photoshopped
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/18/Fat_Controller_TTTE_1.jpg/210px-Fat_Controller_TTTE_1.jpg

I bet you secretly enjoyed some of it though!

I enjoyed the parts that made my little boy light up, but the rest of it made me wince, really.

I bet parents are like that when they play old goth records now!

for the first time on the radio at the same time as Echo & Bunnymen's "Killing Moon

One of kurt's favorite songs, I'm pretty sure.

i had an itunes playlist a few years ago that mixed all of my grunge and shoegazer to great effect. I'd put it on random and get Nirvana into cocteaus into mudhoney into lush into hole into 50 foot wave (who do the grunge thing pretty well, imo) into like slowdive or some shit. Now that I getting into goth, I bet that that would fit in on that playlist pretty well too.

One of kurt's favorite songs, I'm pretty sure.

One of Courtney's, not Kurt's.

Okay, I missed some stuff on this thread the first time around, I must say. In particular, this post sent me into hysterics tonight:

someday the people who didn't take care of their copies of melody maker will fucking get what's coming to them, that's for sure

― Just one thing I was thinking about as I was getting on the copter (J0hn D.), Sunday, April 19, 2009 2:21 PM (6 days ago) Bookmark

I like a lot of the bands that are kind of tangentially related to goth eg: Joy Division, The Birthday Party, Swans, and ha, Killing Joke. I don't dig a lot of honest to god goth bands save for maybe the Sisters and Bauhaus (even then mostly the early more post-punk type stuff). I love Mudhoney and the Melvins, dig Nirvana, fucking hate Pearl Jam, don't really like Soundgarden, destroy that whole vein of it honestly.

I kind of have a love affair with gnarly, sludgy, stooges and/or sabbath influenced punk rock, so I really gotta vote for grunge, as long as I can clarify that THAT is the particular brand of "grunge" I'm voting for.

Oooh...linking Stooges with grunge. Ouch.

I mean you know, let's not bring punk rock into this or things might get ugly really quickly. :)

punk's the root all around man! i just prefer the messy slab o' riffs to the prickly stuff when it comes down to it.

also, i've always related to the denim/flannel/beer/noise aesthetic moreso than the drama club/red wine/leather pants/reverb thing goth had goin on. this may or may not be attributed to the fact that my father was a bearded flannel wearing dude and that i was raised in a wooded area.

i can appreciate goth though. i will not hate.

HAHAHAHAH oh my god what a post, folks. I could hardly ask for more out of a goth vs. grunge thread. *applause*

ABSTRACT GOTH GRUNGE CONCRETE

this may or may not be attributed to the fact that my father was a bearded flannel wearing dude and that i was raised in a wooded area.

^^^real talk, man, real talk

I'm looking all over the web for it, but there a shot of Ben Gunn -- former guitarist for the Sisters (pre-Wayne) -- wherein he's wearing a flannel shirt and big, fuckoff spectacles. He looks like exactly like Steve Turner of Mudhoney.

Not the pic I was searching for, but....

http://www.zsd.co.za/~lucien/sisters/pics/2003-10-03/sisters%20rarities%2081%2083%20front.jpg

New genre: lumberjack goth!

this poll's been done before: Nirvana vs. Killing Joke

lolololol

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

The Cure are (at least at times) goth, which is enough for me to vote for goth. Depeche Mode may even apply at times, which makes it even more obvious.

goth and grunge both stopped being good in about 1990 iirc, but goth had been around longer so goth. also I am a goth.

actually wait goth stopped being good in 1984, my argument sucks ass

lool

If grunge wins I'll be depressed.

http://www.landersmusic.com/images_folders/Effects/Boss/bf-3.jpg

VERSUS

http://profile.ultimate-guitar.com/profile_mojo_data/3/3/1/2/331262/pics/_c291961_image_0.jpglol

grunge is so gonna lose this.

http://www.fayettevilleflyer.com/misc/90s/sarajasmine.jpg
VS.
http://catchdubs.com/images/grunge.jpg

The nice thing abt grunge is big t-shirts were acceptable attire for women.

ilm is full of dodgy old goths, some might deny that they are goths, but will still vote for it.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

looks like some of the goths are still in denial
http://images.eu-xmedia.de/thumbnails/1601451/2047131/origfile=yes/image.gif

whoa did grunge really win this???

I think it's cos most people that liked grunge remembered it through some happy musical memories, then grew out of it. Goth = music is mostly bad, and trenchcoat mafia 40 year olds.

paulhw, you are cordially invited to go eat a giant cock.

I think it's cos most people that liked grunge remembered it through some happy musical memories, then grew out of it. Goth = music is mostly bad, and trenchcoat mafia 40 year olds.

I think the exact reverse of this!

pfunk's gif = best thing ever

http://srv0204-07.sjc3.imeem.com/g/p/bb637a085c1c353ddd32e71f38b10904_web.jpghttp://www.spirithalloween.com/images/spirit/products/processed/00909275.detail.a.jpg

emo dude and one of the twins out of hair metal band Nelson?

Seriously, grunge? That's petty weak.

Whaaa. Did not see it coming.

well, that settles the question once and for all

lol, geir hongro in not understanding subcultures at all shocker

Geir never goes to concerts so it's not surprising. I think he only has ever "spoke" about music via the internet.

I just want to post this gif again
http://images.eu-xmedia.de/thumbnails/1601451/2047131/origfile=yes/image.gif

thanks to that GIF, goth will always win no matter what the numbers say

lolololololol as a 90% disinterested party i am so happy with these results

Next Round: Grunge v. Prince.

Next Round: Goth vs Steely Dan

i think "the royal scam" is the most goth steely dan song

and "do it again" is the most grunge steely dan song

Dude, 'Deacon Blue' is the most gothics song........lyrically.

i disagree!

They are hounded down
To the bottom of a bad town
Amid the ruins
Where they learn to fear
An angry race of fallen kings
Their dark companions
While the memory of
Their southern sky was clouded by
A savage winter
Every patron saint
Hung on the wall, shared the room
With twenty sinners

See the glory
Of the royal scam

Yeah alright, I was just going w/Deacon Blue bcz of "and DIE BEHIND the WHEEL" which always seemed like 'and then I will lol suicide' to me.

http://i682.photobucket.com/albums/vv185/jimmythek_bucket/DonaldFagensDead.jpg vs. http://i682.photobucket.com/albums/vv185/jimmythek_bucket/Takeabath.jpg

some seriously goth motherfuckers right there

http://www.spirithalloween.com/images/spirit/products/processed/00909275.detail.a.jpg

This guy needs to be smacked repeatedly.

jerry cantrell had a baby and they named it rock n' roll

and they they exposed it to the vultures on a high cliff

Point me to 2009's The Smiths. Point me to 2009's Cocteau Twins. I'll laugh in your face.

Bimble, do you like Antony and the Johnsons?

Um...they're okay. Saw them open for Lou Reed.

i thought that shearwater band was the new smiths or something

do people really believe that they happened to be young at the time that the truly great music was being made & have they not noticed that almost every generation thinks that it, too, happened across just such an amazing coincidence of their youth & the music they consider the truly great stuff

I've noticed that; the crucial difference is that, in my case, it's true.

http://images.eu-xmedia.de/thumbnails/1601451/2047131/origfile=yes/image.gif

Haha. Lots of votes are probably based on romantic, nostalgic conceits.

Except mine. I was just young at the time the truly great music was being made.

Ugh. Dan beat me to it.

i dunno, i just had to vote grunge cuz it was my shit as a kid. out of loyalty and whatnot. not that bauhaus isn't awesome

Did someone say goth?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40fIaC7Z-us

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K70OSjPsWAo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KJ4u1B-aRM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9VJuM8-lao

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbXZXhy8lgE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj9zUt57PDw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjwJWhopA9E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPJKCOvE3fw

http://images.eu-xmedia.de/thumbnails/1601451/2047131/origfile=yes/image.gif

You're only encouraging me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keYGRF9FgZU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoYd08OPvA8