DOES anyone still dislike hip-hop and/or R&B?

They're out there. They just keep their mouths shut now cuz they're afraid of being called racists. "I don't like rap because I prefer melodic music" is often interpreted by the hypersensitive as "I don't like rap because I have a bias towards the white Euro-derived musical tradition and those silly Africans can go to hell and take those boring beats with them."

for me this is the opposite. i luv the rapping, the more word mincing the better but the music can be pretty bad at times.

I too rarely put on hip-hop, btw. I don't know why. Yeah - rather hearing singing than rapping is the main thing I suppose. But sometimes I love it. I dunno. I don't think my opinions have much cultural significance either.

Noise = sound. Not that I was claiming that UK garage is 'just noise'.

However, I find almost all of it far too reliant on a particular kind of beat to really interest me. Oddly, I didn't have this problem with drum'n'bass or house, but I suppose that's because these ears of mine hear a lot more variation in those genres.

There's also fusion/borrowing of musical styles, an ever-growing process. A quick summary:

Run DMC do "Walk This Way" Aerosmith fans get interested.

PM Dawn do "Set Adrift on Memory Bliss" Spandau Ballet fans get interested.

Wee Papa Girl Rappers do "Wee Rule" Dancehall Reggae fans get interested.

Kirsty McColl does "Walking Down Madison" (which includes a rap) some of her fans get interested

PWEI bring some indie kids on board.

More of them follow when Bernard Sumner raps on "Idiot Country", "Feel Every Beat" and "Times Change" (ok, poor example ;) )

Does anyone really suggest that the lists of brand names are subversive hyper-capitalism though? I just take it as being that we live in an ultra-branded environment so it's hardly surprising if pop music reflects this.

(Actually I may have suggested something similar once oh dear)

I appreciate all the rhythmic/metric complexity and humor and expression of frustration/glee/terror and whatever else -- rappers write better lyrics (stylewise, at least) than most rock songwriters, who are really very lazy. But I don't particularly like the straight-line forward motion of a lot of rapping -- I like music that moves up and down, or zig-zags all over the place.

Any fucking person I know hates R and B, dance fans, classic rock fans, casual rock fans, the lot. I'd say most people I know who are into music are into guitar type stuff, and almost all of them despise R and B, mainly for the lyrical stuff Dave talks about. I think I dislike the lyrics a bit aswell but it doesn't get in the way of liking the music really.

hehe...

DQ - well horses for courses, it's more like Belle And Sebastian or something adding 'local detail' to their songs I think. It's harmless.

''I like R&B more than Belle & Sebastian''

yeah so do I.

I quite like the Jay Z and Ludicrus songs I've seen on the Box.

regarding hip hop i would say the former but perhaps the latter with r n' b which is interesting

Don't forget Afrika Bambaataa.

Does owning the Eve + GS single count as hiphop? Cos I think it's the best I can do.

This reminds me, I bet Geir still hates rap!

Tom, there are lots of people around who don't like these genres, but they probably don't feel attracted to ILM. I don't particularly like them (excluding 70s R&B), but then, to be honest, I would rather here the generic hip-hop/R&B stations than the generic rock stations (here in Philadelphia). At least on WDAS I get to hear the Jackson 5 occasionally.

Hip Hop Hatas:

* A guy from my class once remarked that he hates all Hip-Hop "except that 'Gangsta's Paradise' song". He also accused Pink of wanting to be black. This brought me much sadness, since the kid's actually lived in Angola for three years, digs that nation's music and is usually the only person in my class to agree with my thoughts about race/politics/wealth/etc. Then again, like most people in Portugal, his knowedlege of Hip-Hop is rather limited- I was gonna get him into Public Enemy but I never did.

* There used to be this writing site called WrittenByMe, featuring mostly renegades from Epinions. It was a decent site, but the forums were just brimming full of reactionary angry white SAHMs. I got into a HUGE debate over the validity of Hip-Hop with a few of them...actually have that debate saved on my comp. Sample quote: "ugh I hate rap music. I can never understand what they are saying. I have to say, some of the music is toe tapping, if you want to call it "music" that is! I don't like the words (that is the ones I can understand! LOL) because most of the time they talk to sex or violence." I'm inclined to believe that statement might mirror the way much of white America (I could be one of your kids!) feels about the genre.

* My dad loves and appreciates rapping, but he has a problem with all electronic music, so his reaction to any Hip-Hop song at all will be "wow, that's some ferocious rapping, but why don't they use real instruments?"

* People at this Buffy forum I used to visit also seemed quite hostile to the genre, mainly due to its misogyny, brand name endorsements, and the fact that "the videos look like porno movies" (this coming from a Duran Duran fan.)

R&B Hatas: Are we talking about modern, post-Prince, post-Timbaland R&B here? Because if we are, try damn near every Soul fan (black or white) over 35!!

With my girlfriend for instance, when I first knew her she had no interest at all in hip-hop, and then at some point - not through my proselytising or anything - she'd just heard enough of it on the radio and started asking me to tape tracks for her. I think the oddness/novelty-ness of it put a lot of people off and eventually they just got used to the concept of hip-hop and started to like parts of it.

It's probably true that music freaks have been overrepresented in my circle of friends over the years. Most people I have been friends with have at least been open to it, and quite a few have liked it.

Maybe, as you say, the simple fact that it hasn't gone away has made some people "give in" and start enjoying it.

Slagging off Kelly Jones with them is fun, though.

In the U.S., I think, Doggystyle and The Chronic did a great deal to get people liking hip-hop, even if it was just on the level of amusement. People who don't like hip-hop still exist, though, in very very large quantities: I think, though, that as time goes on hip-hop has been around and in the mainstream public eye for more and more of people's lives -- for the entire remembered lives of people in their teens now -- and so there's less motivation to be outspoken about criticizing it. It's there, it's been there, it's certainly not about to fade out as a brief fad, and more and more people know someone whose intelligence they respect who enjoys it -- so the line now becomes less "rap is crap" and more "not for me, I suppose."

The "broadening" point is also key -- there are enough different facets of hip-hop now that it's easier and easier for people to find at least one that resonates with them. Personally I'm still not huge on the central parts of hip-hop: I love the pop singles and the bleed-over into r&b, I like maybe half of the current undie stuff, I like the indie-obvious Native Tongues and Golden Age "conscious" type stuff and old-school disco-break and 808 stuff, and I like selected artists in the "street" mainstream, none of which would probably surprise anyone here or anywhere else. So technically maybe I don't actually like what some might consider "pure" hip-hop -- but there's enough of that other stuff that I could probably listen to only that without ever wanting for records to buy.

But, yes....I honestly, truly, categorically hate that which is regarded as contemporary R&B (your Destiny's Childs, your R.Kellys, your Ashantis, your Mary J.Bliges, etc.) It says nothing to me. It doesn't emotionally move me in any positive manner. It depresses me. It irritates me.

Crossover disses with any gusto behind 'em -- especially put-downs based on collaborations with R&B/pop singers -- are a thing of the ancient past in hip hop. At one point I would've thought that was a good thing ("credibility" can be some stifling bullshit), but it does seem that it's more on the bad side.

I always took this comment to be classist when I heard it: i.e., which two popular musical genres are most associated with poverty? Country and hip-hop. But yeah, that has disappeared for the most part because, more than anything I think, both country and hip-hop have steadily drifted towards the middle. Hence P. Diddy on Live with Regis and Kelly or Tricia Yearwood doing the theme song to Con Air.

"Grindin'" just bores me (although that's not the Neptunes' fault). When I'm most put off by is Clipse's yawnsome thug posturing. I mean, seriously, when are we going to move beyond that? I suppose you could say, "hey, when are Punk Rockers going to get over that whole leather jacket and spiky hair thing?"....and I'd agree! I'm just tired of all the cliches. I applaud the Neptunes' quirky production signature (anything's better than the whiney synths of West Coast Gangsta Rap of the 90's), but the rest of the content in "Grindin'" puts me off completely.

And I'm sorry -- I'm not disrepecting the notion of Hip Hoppers collaborating with artists of other genres...but I just wish they'd choose with a bit more finesse. I mean, Justyn Timberlake? COME ON, PEOPLE! THAT'S CRAP! I don't even *LIKE* Clipse and I feel bad for them, as they're assuredly going to be found guilty by association when verdict is in. And Redman's mugging to the camera in desperate Christina's new "beyond Bootydome" video is laughable (you can almost tell that even HE knows its ridiculous).

Beyond that, my biggest gripe with most of today's higher profile Hip Hop is content....or simply the lack thereof. I mean, big-ego'd ruminations on the acquisition of easy wealth and "booty" couldn't be duller by this point.

Anyway, that's my two bits.

Country: Garth Brooks with his friends in low places. So bar brawling, essentially.

Hip-hop: Tupac, Dre and Snoop are gang banging, singing about the streets, etc.

So both genres were really burrowing within their class designation (or the one they wanted to be perceived in). But since they've become popular, they've become much more upwardly mobile. You get rappers rhyming about nice rides and Faith Hill becoming the Celine Dion of Tennessee. So it's all self-determination, or something.

I dunno, this is completely generalized, obviously, but there's something there. Can anyone refute/expound this?

The other part of the "perceived" is this: rock, up through a debatable recent point, wasn't particularly different -- hair metal was just as much about L.A. alcholic party-boy sleaze (or a small-town wild-boy poverty that's not particularly different from country, only the focus is more youthful and more destructive), and while grunge is a bit tough to pin down on this there's no question about its glorification of a sort of "bohemian" poverty. Which is, I think, why rock always gets the pass: first off, it celebrates the degraded end of the culture of the people who are giving it that pass, and second, there's a sense that its degradation is a degradation you aspire to or create by choice, whereas those of hip-hop and country are perceived not only as alien but traditionalistic, handed-down, in some sense not a rebellion. (Check the usual language: a white kid talking about fighting and fucking is "daring and rebellious," a black kid talking about fighting and fucking is "just the same old tired guns and booty crap.")

And the rock musicians who do aim to represent some sort of conservative or traditionalistic working-class white culture -- your Springsteens or Pettys or whomevers -- just as often get called dull or boring or something only one's dad would like.

surely another double standard yet can be seen around this.. these sorts of traditionalists are revered when they look like common

*puts hand up*

The pinefox does not walk alone.

Rapping - I can hardly bear to listen to it, it feels either like some yob shouting at me in the street or some harridan nagging at me. Within SECONDS of hearing it kick in, or even those grunting 'yeah' and 's'right' intro noises that herald a rapper about to start mouthing, I am changing the channel/reaching for the off switch. If I don't/can't, I find it difficult not to start shouting back at the TV/radio/speakers. It's not about 'timed talking' over 'singing' because I don't mind that on other things I have - there's something so incessantly head-nippingly belligeRANT and dig MY slang about it.
The actual noises used in most hip-hop I heard were really flat or boring, and irritated me really quickly: typically just-add-authenticity scratchy samples looped (but never treated) and stuck in a deeply monotonous groove, squidgy little huey & duey turntable quackery, really thin drum sounds - only Mantronix interested me on some things because they sounded alot more stuttersequenced-synthetic, less sample/turntable dependent.
Oh and there's the whole hard-man or sex-money-god ego pish lyrics/culture stuff mentioned above.

R&B - can't stand it. A severe case of the skitters in the rhythm department, with tinky-winky instrumental textures and phrasings and either melisma-drenched close-harmony complaining or vaseline-smeared ooze-alicious leering.

I have a bit of trouble with Nabisco's comments, mostly because I just don't see that "rock always gets the pass". What is this based on? I mean, it doesn't even on this board. I've probably known as many people who "like everything except [metal/70s rock/stadium rock/alternative]" as who "like everything except rap and country". If anything, mullethead rock music seems to get as much of a white trash association as country does. And then this - And the rock musicians who do aim to represent some sort of conservative or traditionalistic working-class white culture -- your Springsteens or Pettys or whomevers -- just as often get called dull or boring or something only one's dad would like. Surely Springsteen is as canonized a rock artist as can be found? Far more respected than Aerosmith or Soundgarden?

The pinefox does not walk alone.

A pity, because it's a great mental image- The Pinefox as the grey bearded ragged wise old prophet walking alone in a post-apocalyptic "Mad Max" landscape, desperatley humming a Lloyd Cole song to himself to prevent his purity from being lost whilst all around him degenerate mutant ILMers are dancing to "California Love" and "Where's Your Head At"

(I could be his clumsy assistant that, fervently clutching his copy of "Blonde On Blonde" while getting slowly turned to the dark side by her out of The Sugarbabes- any her out of The Sugarbabes, as long as it isn't Heidi...)

but i don't trust people who don't like at least some hiphop.

I have a lot of problems with "undie" rap, although I always listen with an open mind, and there is a lot of the music that I do like, although the more it conforms to the ideologies above, the more I may like it. I guess I just like brilliant production, regardless. For all of its pretensions, though, it is not that intellectual. It is a big hit in US colleges because, for many people, when they get to college, they read a good book for the first time and they think they know what thet are talking about, and it is just a phase, and a way to meet potential spouses. If education has a liberalizing effect (that is what my Government textbook said), then the fact that millions go to college and there is a Republican in the White House shows just how much people really take their educations to heart and qork make positive changes in the world. Undie, at its worst, is the soundtrack to this intellectual bad faith. It also verges on being reactionary at times. This is something that makes me incredibly angry. One can never go back. It is one thing to borrow from history, another to attempt to relive it. The 80s and early 90s are the undie equivalent of what the 50s are to Republicans. These times were never as good as they seem now. There was no Golden Age. There was no toilet paper in Athens. That new J5 single, "Golden", makes me sick to my stomach. They seem to pose as being so hip and underground. But they aren't. Right-wing reactionaries are more honest. They drive their SUVs and buy their guns and leave it at that.

(The difference between The Strokes and J5 is that the music of the former can stand outside of the nostalgia.)

The point of the above rant is that at least mainstream rap understands that the world that exists is the place to start from. I could easily criticize the mainstream for being to accepting of their surroundings, of taking advantage of their surroundings for their own benefit, instead of trying to make changes, but somehow being suckered into the ideology of capitalism is less of a crime to me then turning the ideals of "rebellion" and "consciousness" into a reactionary farce, which is undie rap at its worst.

Indie scenes can get so wrapped up in their ideologies that they miss the point, which is music. Am i supposed to think that the shittiet reocrd Merge ever released is superior to "Work It" because of the label? Fuck that! I would rather shave my cho-cha!

Oh and to answer the original question (sorry Tom!), a lot of the hatred comes from old white guys who belive in the use of the electric guitar as the only legitimizing force in all of music. Some of these white guys also like "authenticity", and they don't want those "uppity" blacks to earn any money lest those blacks stop suffering and lose their "soul." It is not about racism or classism, but just about conformity. There are certain ideas of what "black existence" is supposed to be like, and when that is deviated from, expectations are challenged and comfort levels drop. The increased acceptance of the music will continue as the people who grew up seeing black people drive BMWs, whether in real life or only on MTV, attain prominence. I say this because I think, like others above, that most dislike towards rap is not an aesthtic critique, really, but something else. I trust most ILMers more than that, though.

don't know much abt hip hop but it seems to have reached a point where rock was in the 80s: there are major 'stars' and then there is indie hip hop.

I have to say that I think this is ridiculous.

I rather like some German rap, like Die Fantastischen Vier. The lyrics are often rather poetic in a funny twisted way. German seems to be a good language for rapping. French rap occasionally is all right as well, eg MC Solaar.

BTW I used to really hate country but nowadays I started loving alt-country or however you want to call it. Maybe I am someone who doesn't like pure styles as they really bore me. I find Lambchop who fuse country, jazz, soul and I don't now what else one of the most interesting bands around. Though I rather dislike soul as well.

I listened to a lot of it in the past (esp. 1987-1992, as mentioned above) and liked it, but lost interest partly because of some of the content that bothered me. At this point, I think I am also just not drawn to its approach to the more formal elements of music.

How much hip-hop does one have to listen to, in order to give it a chance? (How much of any genre does one have to listen to in order to have given it a chance?)

I also wonder in practical terms what difference there really is between hating a genre and virtually never listening to anyting in that genre. I don't really hate hip-hop, but the amount of it I listen to, outside of occasionally trying out something I've borrowed, is miniscule.

I love songs that mourn some golden past/proclaim a genre dead, not because I believe in them (I don't), but because they allow for such gorgeous, melodramatic gestures. I have a tendency to feel like I missed out on the best era in popular music , and then something like Outkast or Eminem or The Streets comes along and I realise how bollocks that idea is, but it's a very seductive feeling... it's that whole apocalyptic feeling, you know? The lure of "oh shit, it's over, there is no hope"...I think songs like that can be great as long as you don't take them too seriously...plus, they can inspire other artists to make better stuff just to refute that statement.

(The difference between The Strokes and J5 is that the music of the former can stand outside of the nostalgia.)

Nah...I heard "Jayou" by J5 on a mix tape ages ago, when the only Rap songs I'd even heard was the stuff EVERYONE has heard ("Gangsta's Paradise", "It's Like That", etc.), and it sounded just fine.

I'd say that the main difference between The Strokes and Jurassic 5 is that J5's nostalgia is well-defined (80's Rap, mostly post Run-D.M.C., pre G-Funk), whilst The Strokes' one is rather confused- yeah, most music geeks will point you to late 70's Nu Yawk, but the average Strokes fan doesn't even know who Television were!! They're just happy that something's sprung up that RAWKS since the demise of Nirvana.

Indie scenes can get so wrapped up in their ideologies that they miss the point, which is music.

W0rd? I always figured it was 50/50- half of it is the music, and the other half is the image/myths/legends...I'd still love The Smiths or Aphex Twin if I knew zilch about their media image, but something would definitley be lost...

There's always going to be exceptions. But would you then turn around and make accusations of tokenism? Just a question.

I think "trust" is a strong word for boxcubed to have used. I wouldn't initially trust somebody who didnt like any hip-hop or R&B to recommend new music to me - though of course my mind could be changed. Maybe that's what he meant?

I'm not *quite* so sure about the differentiation between the OLD RnB (ie classic soul, Supremes, Motown in general) and NEW RnB (ie Destiny's Child, Aaliyah, Tweet etc). Isn't it a matter of evolution? I can't see many people on ILM comparing Screamadelica or Kid A to the Stones or The Who and then saying that one or the other isn't "rock".

"R&B" was also used for John Mayall and The Rolling Stones!

in re: R&B lyrics, noone will persuade me that Luther Vandross's "Take You Out" is anything but utterly brilliant

And as for contemporary R&B, it's just mostly bleah to me.

There are still too many exceptions for me to be a true hard-core hater, especially since I don't deny aesthetic value in hip-hop, but just have a lot of problems with the whole package. I kind of hate it, but more in a sad way.

(1) Narrowing of musical means, paring things down mostly to rhythm and sonics/color/texture. (Sampling expands the sonic palate big-time, but for me what is done with it doesn't make up for the elimination or at least limited use of these more traditional means.)

(2) Rapping itself can be pretty annoying. As I've said elsewhere, often, to me it seems that almost all rapping can be divided between the belligerent or at least in-your-face (best exemplified by gangsta rap) and the smartalecky (best exemplified by undie/alternative). (I nevertheless do hear the difference between the technical abilities of different MCs.)

(3) Offensiveness of the lyrical content of much of this material.

(4) The real life violence of some MCs and associated pressure to keep it real, to have street cred., etc.

(Why post this here? I could start my own anti-hiphop thread, but that seems gratuitous. There are already other anti-hiphop threads I could add to, but most of them start off with posts that take stances I find too extreme.)

(Go ahead: start an anti- thread on a genre I like.)

*submit*

*ducks*

I know very little of Outkast's repertoire, but aren't those guys kinda socially aware? Everyone likes them. Do they still wear funny clothes?

btw previous post not a loose haiku

Mully, I am not a serious boy to be quoted seruiously, seriously.

As for me, even when I'm listening to stuff I like (recently I've liked J5 - Power in Numbers, Mr Lif - I Phantom and RZA - Ghost Dog ost) I get bored well before the end. The pacing, the beats, the rapping and the melodic structures don't change enough to keep me interested.

I really appreciate that Hip Hop is one of the few musical genres moving forward and want to love it more for that reason. However, no matter how I try, I can't get that excited about it.

I reckon that people who don't know a genre (such as Hip Hop) very well will only be aware of the stuff that gets radio play. If that doesn't interest them, there's no reason for them to dig any deeper. Thus people will say "I hate Hip Hop" based on 50cent and Eminem. This is true for R&B for me. None that I have heard has interested me in the slightest. In fact, quite the opposite. I don't see any of the intelligence or musical/technical innovation that some Hip Hop strives for and I see tonnes of the materialistic attitude and misogyny I hate so much.

So how do I have a closet full of vinyl and 2,000 MP3s?

hahahha!!!!!

I think we've had a thread to the effect of "List rap songs with buildup/crescendos." Sure enough, most of the songs listed were the ones I liked. The very fact that these songs could be listed, though, or that we had to rake our brains to remember a dozen, is the reason I don't really get along with rap.

I bought the Kills and Raveonettes out of duty as they were the only hyped post-Strokes acts I really enjoyed, but I've listened to neither all the way through. Sleater-Kinney's album was good but I'd rather listen to their old albums.

This is a complete 180 from six or seven years ago, when I probably would have snickered at "where's the 'c' in rap????" jokes. I don't know if it's just that rock is that bad now (and wasn't so bad seven, even three years ago) or if the change is purely in my tastes and attitudes. I'm prepared to say 50/50. Radio rock is thoroughly putrid, and most indie is so heavily mediated, playing to its built-in audience that it feels dead to me.

Perhaps hip-hop doesn't have what you're looking for, but who's to say you can't find something you weren't looking for and like it anyway?

This pretty much defines my entire approach to listening to music, as well as what I hate about generalizations (especially, but not exclusive to, when it comes to hip hop). completely utterly OTM.