The 2010 MLB All-Star thread

Voted for the first time in recent memory, and only the 3rd or 4th time ever, just so I could vote for Prado and Heyward.

Talk about this year's balloting, game, etc etc.

Dr. Morbius, tell us all why our votes are wrong and stupid.

http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/2849/asgal1b.jpg

my votes (i lean contrarian obv i.e. no yankees/red sox/phillies/cardinals etc)

AL

C joe mauer
1B billy butler
2B ben zobrist
SS elvis andrus
3B evan longoria
DH vlad guerrero
OF nelson cruz
OF franklin gutierrez
OF shin shoo choo

NL

C brian mccann
1B joey votto
2B martin prado
SS troy tulowitzki
3B ryan zimmerman
OF ryan bruan
OF jason heyward
OF andre ethier

that doesn't look so contrarian except for the 2Bs, and billy butler over morneau wtf

yeah idk... dude is hitting .340 and obv no one is gonna vote for him

yeah i've been surprised at how good a contact hitter he is for a big fat dude, but he doesn't walk much and his power hasn't shown up yet

he's the AL version of sandoval basically i guess

so i was going to start this a few weeks ago pondering nl pitching.
im guessing nl doesn't bring their bats but could this be the year? halladay, u bald ho, wwright +jjohnson? lincecum if he remembers how to pitch from the strtetch?

al with grinkles, phil hughes, marcum and price?

this got to be the year

yeah

guess it depends on how the rotations fall too

gotta account for the bullpen guys too cuz the managers always go that route from like the 6th inning on

nl: broxton, capps, francisco cordero, heath bell, brian wilson (marmol?) (leo nunez?)

al: andrew bailey, mariano, rafael soriano? kevin gregg? idk

al will also have jeff niemann & doug fister, so yeah, not exactly some titans there

buchholz & lester prob as well

Francisco Cordero hasn't really pitched that well to be honest.

If a Reds reliver gets the call, it should be Arthur Rhodes, as that dude has been unhittable.

oh yeah forgot about Lester. it really depends on the bats.

Manuel should get cute and pull in Strasburg after one start.

J, you don't "lean contrarian," you lean crackhead.

sorry that i didn't vote for rod barajas

I wouldn't either -- it's not for the guy who's had 2 good months

(ie fuck Heyward and Prado)

yeah

i know you like to take second half of the previous year into consideration, but i don't usually do that

i usually just try and vote for guys that won't get that many votes but are still having great years, unless someone like mauer is the only defensible player at said position

or vladdy

heyward is perfectly defensible imo...he's already a "star"
by almost any definition and he leads MLB in WPA so far this year thanks to a bunch of game-winning hits

By a "star" you mean someone the media has jizzed over. Why not let Strasburg start on the mound then?

Heyward is NOT one of the 3 best NL outfielders right now; case closed.
But I haven't voted yet, cuz who really cares?

nl staff and pen shits all over the al

where is it anaheim? i cant think of that having impact on the game in any way tbh

Heyward is NOT one of the 3 best NL outfielders right now; case closed.

He leads qualified NL outfielders in OPS.

and again, 2 months of data mean nothing. "Best in the league" usu means you've done it for years.

this is last years argument all over again. Morbs stumps for having only established stars in the ASG and everyone else stumps for whoever is doing well that year.

personally i like seeing a variety of people in from one year to another - so don't really have a problem with going with whoever is having the best season at that point. and yes - i have voted for Jose Bautista every. single time. this year!

with Heyward - i had a hard time choosing between him and Soriano as my 3rd vote for the NL OF.

I would much, much rather see Heyward than Soriano.

i do think it would be really cool to see him make it in his 1st season.

he's definitely going to make it

no prob w/ Heyward as a reserve if he keeps it up

morbs stop trolling the key here is STAR
Heyward definitely doesn't deserve it but he's been groomed well and to a certain extent delivered against the media hype. and then there's the tv ratings and the overarching narrative.

i know you don't think drunk guidos going to town on USA Today punchcards are thinking about VORP and shit. but it's always been a beauty pageant

in what world doesn't heyward "deserve" it

you mean deserve to be a starter?

bcuz after 2 fucking months he's not one of the 3 best OFs in the NL. I don't care esp what the season stats are right now.

skrit, it being "a beauty pageant" has nothing to do with *my* vote, and also the fans have done an OK job (mostly) recently.

That said, I can't name last year's fucking starting OF. Braun was in I guess.

which established star OFs are doing well this season though?

braun, werth, ???

top 5 NL OFs by OPS+ are heyward, willingham (!), werth, braun, soriano

willingham leads the NL in OBP -- will be interesting to see if willingham makes it, in the process potentially squeezing out tyler clippard

i'd probably vote braun mccutchen heyward for the OF if i bothered voting

Ethier just came off the DL fwiw.

OPS is kinda useless by contemporary standards.

my current votes wd probly be Braun, Ethier, Holliday, or Kemp if you want a true CF.

and Willingham seems to deserve a reserve spot.

I'm not enormously invested in Heyward starting, but I definitely do want to see him on the team. Unless he completely falls apart, it'll happen, it's too great a story not to.

"stories" are what made Bo Jackson an All-Star. screw that, Heyward is likely good enough on the merits, esp as rosters are now what, 34?

we basically vote for who gets their bonuses.

Brad Hawpe played last year (and promptly went to shit).

as you see, I'm not a homer.

First Base: Morneau, J., MIN
Second Base: Cano, R., NYY
Shortstop: Jeter, D., NYY
Third Base: Longoria, E., TB
Catcher: Mauer, J., MIN
DH: Guerrero, V., TEX
Outfielder: Crawford, C., TB
Outfielder: Gutierrez, F., SEA
Outfielder: Swisher, N., NYY

First Base: Pujols, A., STL
Second Base: Utley, C., PHI
Shortstop: Tulowitzki, T., COL
Third Base: Zimmerman, R., WAS
Catcher: McCann, B., ATL
Outfielder: Braun, R., MIL
Outfielder: Ethier, A., LAD
Outfielder: Kemp, M., LAD

hi dere
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/baseball/mlb/players/7264.jpg
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/baseball/mlb/players/7264.jpg
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.e1d/img/4.0/global/baseball/mlb/players/7264.jpg

fuck that guy

aint been good enough for long enough

Just when I thought that Spezio took awful baseball facial hair with him...

i always thought he looked potato-head-esq.

(Bautista)

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx177/tupac-chopra/mrbautistahead.jpg

he looks bautistic at times

my sure-to-annoy-morbs ballot

AL:
First Base: Morneau
Second Base: Cano
Shortstop: Gonzalez
Third Base: Longoria
Catcher: Mauer
DH: Guerrero
Outfielder: Bautista
Outfielder: Wells
Outfielder: Rios

NL:
First Base: Pujols (or Votto)
Second Base: Utley
Shortstop: Tulowitzki
Third Base: Zimmerman
Catcher: Doumit
Outfielder: Werth
Outfielder: Ethier
Outfielder: Willingham

not annoyed, just -- HOMER

ha ha. well Votto would be a shameless Toronto pic. but he's really not far behind Pujols in most stats this year!

AL:
First Base: Cabrera
Second Base: Cano
Shortstop: Jeter
Third Base: Longoria
Catcher: Mauer
DH: Guerrero
Outfielder: Hamilton
Outfielder: Wells
Outfielder: Rios

NL:
First Base: Pujols
Second Base: Utley
Shortstop: Tulowitzki
Third Base: Zimmerman
Catcher: Olivo
Outfielder: Heyward
Outfielder: Werth
Outfielder: Braun

NL:
c: BMcCann
1b: Pooholes
2b: Ugglez
3b: RZim
ss: HanRam
lf: JWill
cf: ColRasm
rf: JHey

AL:
c: JoeMau
1b: JMorn
2b: RobCan
3b: ELong
ss: Jetes
lf: CarCraw
cf: VWells
rf: JBaut

how can you lower yrself to voting for big-market players, so tragic

btw, by VORP (including pitchers), Heywward is the 5th-best rookie in the majors right now

yayh JBaut!

how can you lower yrself to voting for big-market players, so tragic

― kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, June 8, 2010 12:25 PM (29 minutes ago)

homegrown is okay by me.

prefer NSwish xp

So who the hell is going to play CF for the NL? So far the top vote getters are Braun, Ethier and Heyward. I suppose if Werth gets in he can play a passable CF...

People really have no apprec for Gutierrez's defensive dominance among AL CFs

homegrown is okay by me.

your 2006-08 votes for David Wright explained at last

switching my NL 3B vote to Wright now that he leads RZimm in RBI, 50-36 (it's the most important stat, you know).

also RZ just ain't gonna win, so Polanco must be defeated.

Fox is using a Ramones song for this year's commerical, so cool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wt8XgwuxWc&feature=player_embedded

Balloting simplified: Heyward, Utley, Polanco all to DL

C - Mauer
1b Cabrera
2b - Cano
3b - Beltre
SS - jeets
OF - hamilton
OF - crawford
OF - wells
DH - vlad

C - olivo
1b - pujols
2b - weeks
3b - wright
ss - hanley
OF - ethier
OF - braun
OF - hart
DH - ?votto/rolen/glaus/dunn? ~w/e

uh, Boo Radley, that was a cover when the Ramones did it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Sun

jc, c'mon, Hart has got nothing but counting stats, and what've you got against Longoria, McCann, Holliday and Morneau?

longoria hates fun, obv

i like to reward guys who are having essentially "career years" who've been otherwise (generally) avg/solid mlb starters -ie. hart, olivo, beltre

i think AL 3B was the hardest position 2 decide -- id be ok w/ longoria

"i like to reward guys who are having essentially "career years" who've been otherwise (generally) avg/solid mlb starters"

ANGEL PAGAN FYC

disregarded for name not being pronounced an-hel

in top 3 NL CFs this year:

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=cf&stats=bat&lg=nl&qual=y&type=6&season=2010&month=0

voting mccutchen screw u

lol kemp + nyjer!

so i'm looking at the 2009 roster and managers will bring 6-7 relief arms they likely won't dip into but only two catchers? offensive players are purely done by voting only?

AL catchers with Martinez out will go Mauer/Posada? LOL looking now and he was already ahead of V-Mart.

if Strasburg gets in i say Carlos Santana gets in as an extra inning backup. regardless, two catchers is kind of a joke.

offensive players are purely done by voting only?

In picking reserves, I know there is a player poll involved.

uh, Boo Radley, that was a cover when the Ramones did it.

And, just to keep the topic off baseball, that's not the Ramones version (not sure who it is). I kind of wish they'd gone with the Dictators...

To me, you play yourself off the All-Star team more than you play your way onto it. If Pujols is having a workmanlike year by his own standards--i.e., 2010--he starts, even if some first baseman's hitting .380 with 20 home runs and 75 RBIs. Ditto Jeter, Ichiro, etc. (There are probably fewer of these guys today than 15 years ago.) If Pujols were hitting .270 with 10 home runs, then you start looking around. Career-year guys are for filling out the reserve roster.

I kind of wish they'd gone with the Dictators...

according to this it is the Dictators version in the commerical:

http://nysportsjournalism.squarespace.com/mlbs-beach-party-62110/tag/2010-all-star-game

"This summer, baseball's biggest event is hitting the coast," a voiceover explains as "California Sun" by Henry Glover and Morris Levy plays in the background, covered here by the 1975 version from New York punk-rock band The Dictators. "Well I'm going out west where I belong. Where the days are short and the nights are long. Where they walk and I'll walk. They twist and I'll twist. They shimmy and I'll shimmy. They fly and I'll fly. Well they're out there a-having fun, in the warm California sun."

Heyward and Yadier the only bum choices by the fans

that hadda be D Wells saying Utley brings "intangibles"

Pelfrey snub, fuckin' C.Manuel

Ryan Howard taken over Votto, what a surprise

Kinda feel like the team with the best record in the NL should have more than one all star selection.

Braves and Pads are tied for best record, and both have multiple selections.

also, theyre saying Heyward may play now??? wtf

Ty Wigginton, All Star: .251 /.337 /.453

Oh, I read the Padres only had Gonzo.

I can't find anything on the web about a second selection except for Bell in the final five voting.

hey, yer right, I thought HB was a selection. You can argue Latos got snubbed, pretty similar to Pelfrey. No one else tho.

I think having one pitcher from the best pitching staff in the NL this season might be nice.

well, we all know the ASG sucks. Especially since It Counts.

True.

Even among the Padres, Gregerson should be there over Bell.

the non-closing relievers always get rooked, did any get picked?

Is Evan Meek a closer? Heh

I didn't even know there was a player in major league baseball named Evan Meek until just now.

Meek does have the highest VORP of nonstarting NL pitchers, Arthur Rhodes 2nd.

The Meek shall inherit the baserunners.

Votto and Youkilis are obv choices for Last Man

who the fuck got picked from the reds ahead of votto?????????

if this sort of starting pitching renaissance continues over the next few years, a lot of really deserving pitchers like pelfrey and latos are gonna get snubbed due to fan voting and "every team must have one player" rule

That is the Dictators? The version on Go Girl Crazy? Geez--I remember theirs as much wilder, with lots of whooping and hollering going on. I'd say I'm embarrassed, but this doesn't even rate with the time when, reviewing the La Bamba soundtrack (and working from an unmarked promo cassette), I complained that a version of "Who Do You Love" lacked Bo Diddley's "sense of menace" or something like that. The version, of course, turned out to be Bo's.

lincecum sure didn't deserve it over latos, considering his second half numbers from last year were pretty mediocre as well

wait, omar infante made the all star team? am i still asleep?

the AL roster otoh is totally sensible

wiggington has certainly had the best season of any oriole

like, omar infante made the all star team over ryan zimmerman -- why not just pick the team out of a hat at that point

Charlie Manuel is so fucking old and lazy. Guess I might as well pick the super utility guy from that one team in our division. Hes hitting over .300!

.311 /.343 /.378

wtffffff

Not going to even try to defend that one.

shouldn't you have to at least start every day to be an all star?

someone must have incriminating pictures!

Brandon Philips and Rhodes were the Reds picked

CONGRATULATIONS, OMAR INFANTE (!?!?!?!)

Might as well pull Shane Halter out of retirement

No Jered Weaver!

What a joke.

have to imagine that weaver would be #1 replacement pitcher and will get to the game somehow, but still completely absurd

it sucks to shit on brandon phillips cuz he's having a good enough year, but zimmerman and votto both not making it is just an utter mockery

no Brennan Boesch either

i'm hoping my hometown boy, Votto gets in on the super special time fan vote thingy.

Pelfrey is scheduled to pitch Sunday against the Atlanta Braves, two days before the All-Star Game. Manuel indicated that the availability of Pelfrey and others factored into his decisions.

“I think some of those guys are Sunday pitchers,” Manuel told reporters after the Phillies’ 8-5 loss to the Pirates in Pittsburgh. “I was told that.”

btw Infante is 8th ... EIGHTH ... on the BRAVES in offensive VORP. Behind Eric Hinske and Brooks Conrad.

Can somebody explain the rationale for picking Infante in two lines or less???

Utility player

he can play any infield position, which is important when you only have 35 players on your roster

Supposedly you can designate someone on the team to come back into the game after they get taken out. So if we're lucky Manuel will put this fucker in TWICE.

remember, IT COUNTS, which is why Prado, Hanley, or Wright will leave the game in favor of Infante.

Votto and SWISHER lead after first day (10 million votes)

Pettitte replaces Buchholz as All-Star

lol, right

Don't let the managers pick anybody

heath bell and raf soriano are in.

BAHAHAHHAHAHAHAA social media guru Nick Swisher eeks it out.

you know what's wrong with AL Stars? Not enough Yankees.

Hope there are many broken legs Tuesday

MORBS UNCONDITIONALLY OTM

did votto win at least? big fan of that guy

ah good he did

sweet!

Huff OT(butthurt)M:

“It’s a sham,” Huff told CSNBayArea.com by phone Friday morning from Washington, D.C. “To me, the All-Star Game is (ridiculous).”

...“It’s so backward, it’s a joke,” said Huff, a 33-year-old veteran of 11 big-league seasons who has never been an All-Star. “I mean, if you want to make the game mean something and be so important with the World Series thing, why are you letting the fans pick the starters?

“If the game’s that big of a deal, it should be the managers and players picking the team, because they really know who the best players are. Let the fans pick that last guy in the internet thing. That’s enough. The way they have it now, though, with the fans picking the starters, it’s either the most popular players or the guys on the big-market teams—the cities with the most fans, like the Yankees and Boston and Philly—just dominating the voting.”

...“If you want the game to just be for the fans, that’s fine. Knock yourself out. Let ‘em pick the team,” Huff said. “But to put something like home field in the World Series on the line, too? I’m sorry, but that’s just ridiculous. They’ve made a huge mess of the thing.

“I don’t even watch it anymore. Like I said, it’s a total sham.”

Except the players/managers picking the players thing.

ya that's a very butthurt response there.

No, he's right. If it's an exhibition game, then it doesn't matter who picks the teams. But if THIS TIME IT COUNTS, then you don't want fans who like popular big market players affecting the makeup of the World Series. You can't have it both ways.

except the fans did pretty well this time. The most egregious picks came elsewhere.

^ OTM

besides it's not like "it counts" in any huge way, imho.

Morneau out w/ concussion (!), replaced by Konerko

Reyes out w/ sore oblique, replaced by Furcal

i'm not sure i agree with Huff but he absolutely should be there. they guy has been the Giants team this first half, he has been unbelievable.

they should be the

What the hell, Corey Hart is starting now?

I kinda feel bad for people like Furcal, making family plans and having them cancelled. Is there much precedent for players saying "hell no, I want the days off"?

Garry Templeton: "If I ain't startin', I ain't departin'"

xpost didn't Pedro more or less do this each year he was selected? I think they always said he had an "arm strain" or some other vague injury but everyone knew he just didn't feel like playing in the game.

This new rule where if you pitch (start) on Sunday then you're not allowed to pitch in the ASG on the Tuesday (which I only heard about today) seems like another way to beg for the days off.

Also, guys get credit for an All-Star selection if they don't go to the game, right? So between the real All-Stars and the injury replacements, about 100 guys are going to be All-Stars this season?

yes, a trophy for all the kids.

Ubaldo vs David Price

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/allstar10/news/story?id=5373816

Ramirez, SS 	Ichiro, RF
Prado, 2B 	Jeter, SS
Pujols, 1B 	Cabrera, 1B
Howard, DH 	Hamilton, CF
Wright, 3B 	Guerrero, DH
Braun, LF 	Longoria, 3B
Ethier, CF 	Mauer, C
Hart, RF 	Cano, 2B
Molina, C 	Crawford, LF
Jimenez, SP 	Price, SP

LOL

Congrats to the AL on their win.

blow me.

Isn't Cano 7th almost as big a lol as Howard cleanup?

NL team actually looks competetive until the replacements start coming in

the starting line ups are pretty good, at least until howard has to face david price

AL's outfield defense shouldn't be their weakness but somehow they managed to stick the only one who can't play center in center

i know it's silly and all - but how can Bautista not have made the HR derby? he's only LEADING THE LEAGUE IN HOME RUNS!!!

he opted out i think

anticipated regress to mean

also, America has never heard of him

was probably afraid of being this year's Inge

so many players opt out of the derby now though that pretty much any power hitter who wants to can get in

also, America has never heard of him

― kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Monday, July 12, 2010 2:33 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

because tons of kids have posters of chris young and corey hart on their bedroom walls

http://991.com/newGallery/Corey-Hart-Never-Surrender--457889.jpg

the starting line ups are pretty good, at least until howard has to face david price

― hoos gossage (J0rdan S.), Monday, July 12, 2010 1:29 PM (20 minutes ago)

haha yeah, this will bring some lols

u guys know this is baseball, the unexpected happens now and then

true, he might make contact, you really do never know

u guys know this is baseball, the unexpected happens now and then

― kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Monday, July 12, 2010 1:56 PM (3 minutes ago)

Now if anybody else were to say that, you'd make sure they knew it was statistically irrelevant.

balderdash.

I thought for sure we'd have a Productive Out Derby tonight, now that the cancer of excess power has been excised from the sport.

(ie, I will be watching a double feature of B thrillers from the '40s to avoid the rank hypocrisy of the HR show)

that's more like the morbs we all know and love!

"Back, back, backback back, back-back-backbackback-backbackbackback," etc.

x 250 or whatever

"Look who's joined us in the booth it's former Angel greats Rob Wilfong and Daryl Sconiers"

hahaha

"Damion 'won't you' Easley 'down the road' after the break"

no comments on Ethier playing CF? dude is one of the worst LFs in the NL.

supposedly Manuel mispronounced a bunch of dudes names during his press conference.

u guys know this is baseball, the unexpected happens now and then

this baseball, suzyn -- you just can't figure it out

braun and hart are equally bad at D tho

oh uh, what happened to Holliday?

“Asked why he decided to start Ethier in center, Manuel mumbled something unintelligible about the voting process, the lack of a center fielder on the NL roster and how Ethier has played the position.

“Couple of problems: First, Ethier was first in player voting and second in fan voting among NL outfielders. Corey Hart, who is starting in right field, wasn’t in the top three in fan voting and earned in a place in the starting lineup as a replacement for sidelined Jason Heyward. Second, Ethier has never played center field, at least in the majors.”

OMAR INFANTE has played center field!

CHARLIE MANUEL has played center field in the majors, too!

T/F

there would be more excitement over a rookie home run derby than the one that they're actually putting on?

boesch, stanton, heyward, ike davis, tyler colvin, buster posey, gaby sanchez and... austin jackson? idk someone, it doesn't matter

Inside-the-park-HR derby for Austin Jackson amirite

Bautista.

xpost - BAUTISTA!

OMAR INFANTE has played center field!

I'm sure you'll see him there in the tenth or 16th inning.

There should be a Circus of the DFA'd Un-Stars (or a Wipeout course)

Willis
Byrnes
Everett
Bocock
Blalock
Atkins
Haeger
Eveland
Dobbs
Bonser
Iwamura
Snell
Taschner
Grud'nek
Lamb
Sarge Jr
Colome
Winn
Schoenetc
Taveras
Gaudin
Urgh! An Edwar
Catalanotto
Jacobs
R Colon
The maligned Hayden Penn

etc

good thing david ortiz leads the league in smiles

wtf @ my blondie valentine

Bo knows buffets

who were those asspirates singing before the game?

nice - my baseball stealing website is working again. might watch the hr derby.

well - i will because i'm bored.

xposts - that was Train, the greatest American band of all time

can we discuss the giant penis on the sports science cgi batter? am I the only one who noticed it?

search: Drops of Jupiter, the greatest song of all time
destroy: the awful Brazil pressing of the incredible Live at Milan '08. (the Japanese version sounds loads better and includes 2 bonus tracks)

can we discuss the giant penis on the sports science cgi batter? am I the only one who noticed it?

You weren't -- it was CGI John Holmes.

CHANNEL 115
PLAY ANDY PETTITTE TRIVIA

lol @ zs

can anyone beat my time in unmuting chris berman: 6.3 seconds!

wow @ that cgicock!

Neyer:

"David Price and Ubaldo Jimenez? Really? Could the managers have been more obvious? Jimenez leads the National League with 15 wins. Price (co-)leads the American League with 12 wins. Jimenez hasn't been one of the three best pitchers in the National League. Price hasn't been one of the five best pitchers in the American League. The more things change ..."

Jimenez is behind Halladay, Johnson, and Wainwright in VORP, but the four of them are separated by just 2.6 VORP. Price is also 4th in his league, but just 4.1 behind Jon Lester. They were chosen to be starters because of their W-L records, but these aren't terrible choices or anything.

"Jimenez hasn't been one of the three best pitchers in the National League."

A guy goes 15-1 for an otherwise sub-.500 Colorado team. At home he's 6-0 with a 3.52 E.R.A., historically quite good in Colorado; on the road, he's 9-1 with a 1.23 E.R.A. But after a rough patch of approximately 20 innings, Neyer is going to blithely ridicule the idea that he's a deserving pick to start the All-Star game. Oh, please. This is why I'm a James disciple who sometimes loathes what's followed in his wake.

The point is among several "deserving picks," it's pretty much always the guy with the shiny W-L who gets tabbed. (so Joe Morgan can talk about weeeeens on the radio)

In the case of Jiminez, disagree. He's getting the start because over the course of 18 starts, he's been other-worldly for 15 of them. His W-L record is a function of that other-worldliness, not something that exists apart from it. (I'd also be curious to check the last dozen or so All-Star Games to see if your contention that the best W-L records "pretty much always" get the start. It'd be a lot of work, though, probably involving game logs. I'm not saying you're not right, just not sure that you are.)

"to see if your contention...is true" that should read.

Just to clarify: in his three bad starts, Jiminez got a win and two no-decisions. If you tagged him with three losses instead, putting him at 14-4 (with no change to his E.R.A.), he'd still absolutely be my starter. And, I suspect, Charlie Manuel's.

how about if Josh Johnson pitched for a team that scored?

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/index.php?cid=70640

Let me check his game log; will report back.

i actually just went through and did that out for fun and josh johnson is 14-2 with ubaldo's run support game-by-game

love when talking heads like klaw and neyer use the most meaningless decision (who pitches the first inning) of the most meaningless game to sound off on how dumb everyone else is.

it doesn't matter, Buck and Dim will just be kvelling about Dead George while the starters are in

doesn't the "starter" pitch the first 3 innings usually?

anyway if the NL loses it's probably because of their dumb roster choices and not because they took the 4.7 WAR starter over the 4.9 WAR starter, that's just splitting hairs

no that hasn't been the case for years

It used to routinely be 3 innings, that's gotten whittled down.

If the NL loses it will probably be because they don't play the best players for the whole game, which no one ever does.

You can make a very good case for Johnson. In his 9 wins, Johnson has an E.R.A. of 0.83 (6 ER, 65 IP); in his 15, Jiminez's E.R.A. is 1.41 (17/108.1). In his 6 no-decisions, Johnson is 2.67 (11/37); Jiminez's two no-decisions were wipeouts at 10.44 (13/11.2); in his three losses, Johnson is 2.70 (6/20); Jiminez is 0.77 in his one loss (1/7). In neutral parks, Jiminez is 9-1, 1.23; Johnson is 3-1, 2.00. So it's close. To me, it comes down to how much weight you place on Jiminez's two awful no-decisions, and whether or not you believe the no-hitter, the park, and, yes, the W-L record (I mean, he's not Lamarr Hoyt or Pete Vukovich...) neutralize them.

My problem with Neyer's comment might be less with what he said and more with how he said it. If he'd written that he'd give the start to Johnson, even though Jiminez or Wainwright or Halladay would be just fine, I wouldn't have even noticed. But the way he so authoritatively states that Jiminez isn't one of the three best pitchers in the N.L. this year, something that runs counter to almost anyone's perception of the first half, that's what bothers me about the zealotry of true sabermetric believers. I think it bothers James sometimes, too.

the way he so authoritatively states that Jiminez isn't one of the three best pitchers in the N.L. this year, something that runs counter to almost anyone's perception of the first half

The same thing crossed my mind about a week ago when I was looking at the pitching metrics. Have you noticed that "almost anyone" is usually wrong about these things?

UJ is certainly a Cy contender right now, and very likely to not quite match the 3 guys ahead of him on the sabermetric boards in the second half, as they have better indications of full-season success.

the general trend in sabermetrics is to discount all descriptive stats in favor of predictive stats, which is great if you're trying to evaluate players for your fantasy team, but i agree with you that you lose something when you can just sweep aside a guy who's got a 2.20 ERA and diminish his accomplishment thus far because his walk rate is too high

i'm not sure i've found the proper balance of the two sides myself

like, i'm not gonna bet money that ubaldo keeps his ERA in the low 2's for the rest of the year since his predictive stats don't currently point that way, but i'd be a terrible baseball fan if i didn't want him to pull it off despite that.

to some extent i feel like we should be celebrating players who are playing better than they should be rather than penalizing them, the sabermetric stats are just there to temper our expectations for when they do slump

it's funny to me that ppl who practice a discipline that (rightly) acknowledges the limitations of small samples and the amount of random noise that can be found in performances both good and bad get all hot and bothered about the slight differences in numbers between the four best pitchers in the nl.

like, ALL of them are deserving! picking one over the others, using any criteria, is hair-splitting by definition.

It's admittedly a small difference, but again, the first thing you hear after Jimenez's name is "15-1".

As the Mets may be battling Colorado for the WC, I'm not particularly rooting for him.

it's funny to me that ppl who practice a discipline that (rightly) acknowledges the limitations of small samples and the amount of random noise that can be found in performances both good and bad get all hot and bothered about the slight differences in numbers between the four best pitchers in the nl

I was thinking exactly the same thing. One of the smartest things I think I gleaned from years of reading James was not to place too much weight on normal, sometimes random fluctuations. If Albert Pujols is comparatively closer to a normal human being this year, no big deal; he's still the same Albert Pujols he was a year ago, unless and until some longer-term evidence starts to accumulate that he isn't. But Neyer is essentially making a huge deal of Jiminez's three poor starts--presumably he wouldn't have written the same words a month ago.

I had more or less the same argument with a student's mother last year. I thought she was a B math student--and the marks I gave her first term reflected that--but the mother was convinced she was an A student. What was her evidence? That her grade 5 teacher had given her a bunch of A-minuses, even though the evidence from grades one through four, and the evidence I'd collected in grade 6, overwhelmingly suggested B-range. She didn't want to hear this, though.

i think a lot of the sabermetric hot-and-bothered-ness would go away if there weren't still front offices giving us evidence that they're making personell decisions based on traditional stats, some of which, despite their celebratory value, have almost no predictive value

maybe if there was more transparency with this sports management stuff we'd find out that they are in fact making well-informed decisions based on extensive scouting data and such but when Ed Wade comes out and says that he signed Pedro Feliz because "he's a good run producer" and "he's driven in 80 runs the past few seasons" and such, then it's just fueling the fire.

I guess I'm reading RN's comment as less of a "slam" on the pitchers than you are. What he's saying, it seems to me, is that of 4 roughly equivalent pitcher half-seasons (or 6-7 in Price's case), the managers picked guys who have the best (or tied for best) dinosaur stats.
Haven't checked the SweetSpot to see if he drew any angry comments...

I think Johan Santana might have equivalent numbers to Jimenez after 162.

i guess i don't see the point of arguing the selection criteria when it's difficult to argue the selection.

in Ubaldo's case, the Cro-Magnons think he is HEAD & SHOULDERS above the other NL pitchers cuz of the W-L distortion. So it reinforces the primacy of their yardstick.

i haven't seen that--maybe i'm not paying enough attention

in Ubaldo's case, the Cro-Magnons think he is HEAD & SHOULDERS above the other NL pitchers cuz of the W-L distortion

At least as absurd, if not moreso: the sabermetrician who derisively asserts that "Jimenez hasn't been one of the three best pitchers in the National League." James has an excellent piece up on his website where he redistributes Harold Baines's career stats (doing so at the game level, creating completely different seasons) and transforms him into a no-contest Hall of Famer. If you did something similar with Jiminez's two no-decisions, took about eight of those 13 runs and parked them elsewhere, I wonder if Neyer would be so sure of himself.

yeah thing about that "hasn't been one of the three best" bullshit is neyer needs to say what stat he's basing it on, cause there's always a counterpoint.

he's not using WAR, because ubaldo is 3rd in WAR. VORP maybe?

Could well be. And, sorry if this makes me a Cro-Magnon, that's where I get off the boat. I don't want to evaluate All-Star and HOF picks solely on miniscule differences in VORP.

i think the knock on jimenez isn't the recent blowouts but that his SO/BB ratio is low compared to the other elite pitchers

he's still sitting at ~2.5 though so it's not like he's 2008 dice-k out there

Compared to Halladay, Johnson, and Wainwright, I can see where that's a factor. I will point out that Haren is second in SO/BB ratio right now, and he's 7-7/4.36. I just think you've got to look at everything across the board--including, but in no way limited to, W-L record--and that if you do, it's hard to make a case that Jiminez isn't one of the three best.

what do you think Manuel's #1 reason was?

I'm guessing a somewhat holistic view of what Jiminez has done thus far, not that different from how you or I would have reacted if someone had told us in March that a Colorado pitcher would be 15-1 at the break, with a 2.20 E.R.A. Something in the neighborhood of "You're kidding, right?"

Actually I'd better flesh that out a bit, before you come back with "I rest my case"...if someone had told us in March that a Colorado pitcher would be 15-1 at the break, on a team that's under .500 the rest of the time, with a 2.20 E.R.A., 6.2 H/9, a 2.46 SO/BB ratio, a 9-1 record on the road, and a no-hitter for window dressing. Again: "You're kidding, right?"

I'm not arguing he hasn't been excellent!

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/4289/monday-mendozas-60#comments

i liked ubaldo last year but yeah this was still a surprise

and i think the H/9 is the most wtf part of that line esp. with so many games in coors

Some great comments there on Neyer's post, some very close to what's been said here...I think it's presumptuous for Neyer to take it as a given that W-L is behind both managers' thinking. The choices were made by two different managers; you'd have a better case if it were the same person picking both starters. The guy in the comments section who pointed out that Jiminez would likely be the fans' choice--I'm sure that figured into Manuel's decision too. (I've probably committed some major sabermetric breach here by suggesting that fans be factored into the equation.)

Managers think more alike in the last 30 years, it seems to me, than in the history of MLB. Stengel's tactics would have today's sports MSM spluttering 24/7, even winning pennants every year.

Casey in 2010: "Well, I will tell you, I got a little concerned yesterday in the first three innings when I say the three players I had gotten rid of had VORPs that were higher than the six fellows I kept. I thought so great of that did not do so good up to the sixth inning I was more confused but I finally had to go and call on a young man in Baltimore that we don't own and his VORP made up the difference, and he is going pretty good, and I would actually have to tell you that I think we are more the Bobby Grich/Bobby Abreu type now from success." You could look it up.

i'm not being a homer or anything but josh johnson has clearly been the best pitcher in the NL this year

i have no clue what he is even trying to say there.

xpost

ubaldo is behind josh & waino imo -- he's been otherworldly at times yes but he's also had a few bomb starts which should count, same for halladay

i actually was thinking about doing a "first half nl cy young" poll since it's been such a tight race

clemenza, that's good

A compliment from Morbius! Life has nothing left to show me.

From the comments posted on Neyer's site: "I don't necessarily disagree with Rob about someone else starting the All-Star game instead of Price and Jimenez, but who does he recommend? It's easy to mock those picks and say 'the more things change' the more they stay the same, but it's not like Jimenez and Price are sporting 1.40 WHIP and benefitting from historic amounts of luck and/or run support." And, again, that's what's so annoying about Neyer's certitude. If he'd simply written something like, "Wow, there are at least four guys who could get the start for the N.L., any one of whom would be fine," no problem. But to intimate, in his choice of words, that giving the start to Jiminez is some sad echo of the Cy Youngs given to Hoyt and Vukovich is highly disingenuous.

I think Neyer's argument is based around Jimenez being fairly lucky because of his low BABIP (especially compared to Wainwright, Halladay, Johnson). Also, people always talk about his velocity, how he throws 100, overpowers guys ... but he has (by far) the worst K/BB of the four. Johnson and Wainwright have higher K/9IP too, and Halladay (who isn't considered a strikeout pitcher) doesn't trail him by much.

Also, his HR rate is absurdly low. So basically he's 4th in VORP right now, and his stats suggest that he'll regress further in the second half ... it's not such a stretch to argue that he's the 4th best pitcher in the league.

Truthfully, I don't even know what BABIP means...Jiminez has given up 6 HR in 127 innings, Johnson 4 in 122; those seem fairly comparable to me, and in any event, if I understand you correctly, it doesn't make sense to penalize a guy for doing something extremely well in the first half on the assumption he'll regress in the second half. Also, for what it's worth--and I only know this because I was in a book store looking at Johnson's Baseball Prospectus entry a couple of hours ago--his monthly E.R.A.s in 2009 were 2.60, 2.72, 2.95, 3.30, 3.86, and 4.11. Should that be held against him, insofar as it points towards regression in the second half of 2010?

i think it's fucking ridiculous to use k/bb or babip when talking about who should start the all star game--it's a reward for a good first half, why use predictive stats?

johnson has had the best first half, so it k/bb & babip don't even matter

you use k/bb to tell if someone is going to be a good pitcher--news flash, jimenez is already a good pitcher

Help--what is BABIP? I keep thinking about Bruce Babbitt, and I don't want to.

Batting Avg on Balls In Play

babip is a good indication of whether a pitcher is unlucky--if it falls outside the .280-.300 range it may indicate good or bad luck.

babip for a hitter is a sustainable skill btw--careful not to confuse the two

Thanks.

Another thought on where I think James's methods--or maybe mindset might be a better word--have been perverted along the way. The number-one thing I learned from James is to be skeptical of everything, especially conventional wisdom. James himself, on his website, is constantly questioning his own research from years gone by; he's always ready to take a second look, and doesn't hesitate to reach different (or at least significantly revised) conclusions. (Adding the caveat that, working now as an insider, he's got something of a vested interest to do so.) It seems to me that the VORP-happy wing of sabermetric true believers is, quite properly, ultra-skeptical of anything that comes from Joe Morgan or Charlie Manuel, but isn't nearly so skeptical of what now amounts to its own version of conventional wisdom. If Rob Neyer says so, it must be true; if Pitcher A has a slightly better VORP than Pitcher B, then that's the end of it, Pitcher A must be better.

are there enough of those hitters who can sustain it that it skews babip for pitchers tho?

I always assume guys with high babips are speedy dudes who can run out infield singles.. And theres not a ton of those guys.

There isn't one 'kind' of high-BABIP hitter (I think D Wright is around .450 this year), but if it's a guy having a career year in July, it likely means he's been very lucky.

cad, I don't consider k/bb primarily predictive -- it's qualitative. ie, Jimenez has been both good and lucky.

xp nah a lot of it has to do with line drive % iirc. basically you need to have a halfway decent babip as a hitter or you probably shouldn't be in mlb.

Using those stats to predict how a guy will pitch in the second half is secondary -- from the stats they've compiled right now, you can argue that Jimenez is the league's 4th best pitcher. The other three guys all have lower ERA's, have better K/BB, two of the three have pitched more innings, and two of the three are striking out more guys. The only stat that clearly separates Jimenez from the pack is wins (actually, W-L).

To "break ties" you could then look at BABIP and conclude that Jimenez has been luckier in compiling his numbers, compared to the others.

I'm astonished about the suggestion that Ubaldo's sophisticated sabr stats indicate he's not quite good enough to start in the FREAKING ALL STAR GAME where all selections are based on the most unfair and arbitrary biased and populist decisions.

ubaldo is in the top 3 in war and wpa, right? always another stat.

i cannot believe you guys have been debating this all day.

welcome to being a "baseball fan" in 2010

all stars among us bringing the ;_;

what is this crap

btw every all star among us is a white person

nuh uh - i saw an asian lady

oh - very well then

was thankfully making a drink during that whole sequence

they seriously announced 80+ players?

came back in time to hear joe buck tell us that they're just kids playing a game

file under "bullshit that would never be said about one of the other major sports"

trevor cahill not being able to pitch cuz he pitched on sunday and being replaced by jered weaver WHO WAS PITCHING IN THE SAME GAME VS CAHILL ON SUNDAY was seriously the biggest facepalm shit ever

lol is that really what happened?

who is "amber riley"

lol is that really what happened?

― call all destroyer, Tuesday, July 13, 2010 8:34 PM (34 seconds ago) Bookmark

lol yes

who is "amber riley"

― call all destroyer, Tuesday, July 13, 2010 8:35 PM (35 seconds ago) Bookmark

cross promotion that jack donaghy would be proud of

was it racist to just have assumed that that was jennifer hudson

that was some heinous lack of regard for the melody of the ssb

lol is that really what happened?

― call all destroyer, Tuesday, July 13, 2010 8:34 PM (34 seconds ago) Bookmark

lol yes

― hoos gossage (J0rdan S.), Tuesday, July 13, 2010 8:35 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

ok i'm sorry, i have to go back to this--under what rule was cahill left off the roster? under what rule was jered added?

okay

pitchers who throw the sunday before the all star game are taken off the team -- so cahill was removed, and he was replaced by jered weaver, who was facing him on sunday, and thus was taken off the team -- weaver was replaced by andrew bailey, who pitched on sunday in the same game as well, but since he's a closer he wasn't taken off the team

holy bureaucracy

just an fyi that doc funk is killing it with the ASG tweets

"esther madrigal" is a great name

Good job by mlb for picking a stadium for the all star game where players can't even see the ball

Is there a mic inside mauer's glove

Game's underway, one last post. My dream NL lineup:

Gowan SS
Chilliwack 2B
Goddo 1B
Neil Young DH
BTO 3B
Martha & the Muffins 3B
Shania Twain CF
Corey Hart RF
Glass Tiger C

Killer VORPs, one and all.

Oops--too many third basemen. Good thing BTO were skinny.

Nice bumper music from fox -- ESPN would be shoving eminem down our throats

what did they use? i was zoning out.

I hadn't seen McCarver yet this year - he suddenly got old!

i heard phoenix at one point

Thanks to Fox for informing me that Ryan Braun is 2nd in multihit games, very important stat.

useless stats in baseball?! why i never

They used the beach boys earlier

pettitte/mauer convo was p interesting 2 hear tbh

welcome to being a "baseball fan" in 2010

hey cad, the culture is still dumb enough that ppl can suggest Jim Rice is a deserving Hall of Famer. :)

As you notice, the starting pitchers are out after 2 scoreless innings CUZ IT COUNTS!

True to my word, the TV has been on mute since I got home. How many times has Buck lambasted Pettitte as a juicer so far?

if only we could get Jeter to bet on baseball

"esther madrigal" is a great name

was it a civilian all-star, or a character from Tales of the City?

it was the little girl who announced the nl lineup

in tribute to Steinfucker, did they play a tape of gossage screaming "YOU CAN TAKE IT TO THE FAT MAN UPSTAIRS"?

Josh Hamilton outta the clubhouse, where Angel ballgirls were doing jello shots off his abs.

not saying the culture isn't dumb! the discussion is just torture sometimes (not referring to this thread btw)

ok, just monitoring

Ryan Braun is the prettiest guy in the starting lineup. J0rdy, back me up on this.

Who would it be worse to work for: steinbrenner or one of his dickhead sons trying to emulate him?

I'm partial to ethier myself

@JPosnanski At least that weird McCarver "guess whose house Cliff Lee..." exchange with Joe Girardi wasn't awkward.

ethier is up there for who i wish i could look like.

Matt Kemp is a hottie but (deservedly) left off

Braun's eyes popped very hotly on that dive

Morbs u need to take out Rihanna

no I don't use surrogates

Mauer flashing all the tools

rainbow Kuo

Glad kuo could make it

quite a rock pulled by Mauer

Elvis has left the bag

http://media.sacbee.com/smedia/2010/07/13/15/102152479NT002_6th_Annual_M.standalone.prod_affiliate.4.jpg

hey I just noticed a run scored at some point, that's how into it I am

this game will be decided by marlon byrd, brandon phillips etc

i was not that into it; gf demanded channel change

IT COUNTS xp

J Votto hit for R Howard.

yeah, no shit, Charlie

lol at the lefty specialist middle relievers giving up all the runs

yeah, 30 innings = small sample size

McCann with the big hit.

this is why middle relievers shouldn't be in the all-star game

maybe voters will start McCann at C next year

"If you don't know Brandon Phillips, he's one of the most dangerous 2B in the game."

He is an all-star, so I sorta guessed that, Joe.

well you can't be sure with some of the guys this year.

A-Rod is the AL's Omar Infante

shitting on fox announcers is shooting fish in a barrel but my favorite Joe Buck quote this past postseason was a reference to the speedy Robinson Cano, always a threat on the basepaths.

-2 net steals for the year, black, in 20s.

i just realized i don't have a single allstar on my team = no stats for today :(

best baseball day in 24 years!

Whoa--was that a play or what?! (Ortiz or no Ortiz.)

(OK, last game of 2001 World Series was better)

xp

The last time the NL won, aka back before it "counted", they celebrated the win a lot harder than they did this one. Just sayin'!

Also, way to not have anyone available to pinch-run for Ortiz there.

It is kind of ironic that the rosters are up to 73 players a side, and you end up with Ortiz running for himself.

He could've used Rodriguez, but I guess it's better to not play him at all! lol

"If you don't know Brandon Phillips, he's one of the most dangerous 2B in the game."

He is an all-star, so I sorta guessed that, Joe.

― no turkey unless it's a club sandwich (polyphonic), Wednesday, 14 July 2010 03:03 (1 hour ago)

thought mccarver had said it. i mean no shit these guys deserved to be here (omar infante, paul konerko and bullpen selections aside)

either way that made me want to go to a gas station, buy a jumbo soft drink, build a time machine, travel back to before the game and put money down on the national league to win, travel forward back to the moment that statement was uttered, hurl the soft drink at the tv and spend the winnings on replacing the tv i'd just ruined.

Verducci, but:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/tom_verducci/07/14/allstargame.managers/index.html

lowest TV ratings ever

The postgame was really depressing, all the Fox people giving off waves of "well, THAT was boring as hell, sorry everybody, better luck next year."