harvell

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there a thread on this yet?

― bulbs (bulbs), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:03 (twenty-one years ago)

That article sounds like Metallica.

― jushinthunderliger (deangulberry), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:04 (twenty-one years ago)

DEAN JUST BROKE THE INTERNET.

― ALLMUSIC.COM (ddb), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Like my parents' sweaty penile basement, my sweaty penile bedroom sports a visible "no girls allowed" sign.

― jushinthunderliger (deangulberry), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:12 (twenty-one years ago)

If ambient and shoegaze are a return to the womb and Merzbow-style extreme noise terror is alpha male, then Burned Mind is a motherless child. It's a connection that might register uncomfortably with Wolf Eyes' fan base were they more interested in introspection than shouting "faggot" on a crowded message board.

Oooooooh, SNAP!

I like Jess, btw.

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:21 (twenty-one years ago)

But his blog said that he was happier now, since leaving ILX. Poor Jess. ;..(

"Happy" Jess Harvell R.I.P. 1967 - 2004

― jushinthunderliger (deangulberry), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:23 (twenty-one years ago)

When I reviewed Wolf Eyes' Dread EP

Dread is not an EP.

Also, SHOTM are kinda teh suck, especially when compared to wulfize.

― Ian John50n (orion), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:24 (twenty-one years ago)

I wonder who JH hates more: himself or his strawman noizedude?

― gygax! (gygax!), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:26 (twenty-one years ago)

"strawman noizedude" clearly = jw though, right?

― Ian John50n (orion), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:27 (twenty-one years ago)

plushie?

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:28 (twenty-one years ago)

I have a good idea which one he would tell you that he hates more. (xp)

― jushinthunderliger (deangulberry), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:28 (twenty-one years ago)

does jess hate JW more than "tad" eisbar? i can't keep track of The OC(D) ILX drama.

― gygax! (gygax!), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:33 (twenty-one years ago)

i dont even know what his point is!

― Spinning Down Alone You Spin Alive (ex machina), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:36 (twenty-one years ago)

his point: wolf eyes = "too macho."

― Ian John50n (orion), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:37 (twenty-one years ago)

that's kind of a sad article. eeks.
m.

― msp (msp), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:37 (twenty-one years ago)

I'll bet Jess shows up to that Wolf Eyes gig wearing a fake mustache and an Outkast shirt.

― strawman noisedude # 00192 (deangulberry), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:38 (twenty-one years ago)

His point is that noize is a one-trick pony and that its fans are even bigger one-trick ponies than the music itself?

Unfortunately it really is more like he's never been to a noize show, just written the whole thing based on you guys and some other twit from email world. Mirror mirror etc.

I don't think I've ever been pigeonholed as an archetype in an album review, I'm jealous

― TOMBOT 64 (TOMBOT 64), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:42 (twenty-one years ago)

though yes, it's hard to tell exactly how he feels about wolf eyes, other than them not mattering all that much, i thought the piece was by and large great, especially the terrorist cell bit.

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:43 (twenty-one years ago)

tho he does ignore the fact that noize scenes DO EXIST but, duh, of course bands from RI, MI, CA, etc aren't jamming all the time

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:44 (twenty-one years ago)

I'll bet Jess shows up to that Wolf Eyes gig wearing a fake mustache and an Outkast shirt.

i'll bet he stays at home and plots even more embarrassing "revenge" scenarios that will likely go over the heads of the Seattle Weekly readership.

― gygax! (gygax!), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:45 (twenty-one years ago)

He's calling you all gay! Do something!

xpost - oh man

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:46 (twenty-one years ago)

I would love to be a fly on the wall of the typical SW reader during that one ... "what the fuck is the pansy on about?" "why does baldies never want to rock?"

― strawman noisedude # 00192 (deangulberry), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:47 (twenty-one years ago)

there's really a pretty extensive network for touring/distribution/keeping connected. noize is not so insular as it once was AT ALL. someone was making that point on this very board the other day, and it's totally OTM.

― Ian John50n (orion), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:48 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.xmel.com/matchicon.gif

― strawman noisedude # 00192 (deangulberry), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:49 (twenty-one years ago)

I THINK HIS POINT IS THAT HE DOESNT LIKE HIPPIES OR PEOPLE WHO HAVE ACCOMPLISHED MORE IN LIFE THEN GETTING FAT AND KICKED IN THE NARDS

― Spinning Down Alone You Spin Alive (ex machina), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:49 (twenty-one years ago)

i'll bet he stays at home and plots even more embarrassing "revenge" scenarios that will likely go over the heads of the Seattle Weekly readership.

Gygax, I would like to remind you that this article and others like it need to pass under the watchful editorial eye of one M. Matos. Please do bear that in mind, old chap.

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:50 (twenty-one years ago)

matos should just ask us to write articles about noize; they'd be way better.

― Ian John50n (orion), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:50 (twenty-one years ago)

I would like to write one on burritos, faggotry, and eurotrash rave.

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:51 (twenty-one years ago)

you'd do a good job, no doubt. fuck i want a burrito RIGHT NOW. maybe i will get one.

― Ian John50n (orion), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:52 (twenty-one years ago)

someone start an ilm thread about this and call him out

― Spinning Down Alone You Spin Alive (ex machina), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Gygax, I would like to remind you that this article and others like it need to pass under the watchful editorial eye of one M. Matos. Please do bear that in mind, old chap.

Are alt weeklies the new blogs?

― gygax! (gygax!), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:53 (twenty-one years ago)

since when have hippies accomplished anything.

btw I'm not sure the fucking 12 year old mental age personal attacks on Jess really do much to criticise the article.

x-post that's a good idea Jon

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:53 (twenty-one years ago)

I was responding in kind Ronan as that isn't much of an "article" but rather a personal attack in and of itself.

― strawman noisedude # 00192 (deangulberry), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:54 (twenty-one years ago)

jess is a crappy writer

― Spinning Down Alone You Spin Alive (ex machina), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:55 (twenty-one years ago)

FORMULATE ONE THESIS

― Ian John50n (orion), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Ronan, perhaps later when we are done having one life, we will get the time to respond to Jess in a more thoughtful and introspective manner.

― strawman noisedude # 00192 (deangulberry), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:56 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm sure plenty people who never post here would see it as an article. I didn't even notice the "message board" line to be honest, until Adam quoted it. Also I got the impression despite himself Jess quite liked the music, though I may be wrong.

And it's a really well written piece, even if you fucking hate the guy and disagree with it, you should be able to admit that.

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:57 (twenty-one years ago)

I think Jess overestimates our Wolf Eyes love....

xpost: no the article is crap

― Spinning Down Alone You Spin Alive (ex machina), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:57 (twenty-one years ago)

why don't you do better then? I'm sure Matos would give you a fair shot.

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:58 (twenty-one years ago)

I am "not a writer"

― Spinning Down Alone You Spin Alive (ex machina), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:59 (twenty-one years ago)

i would very much like to do better. xpost

― Ian John50n (orion), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:59 (twenty-one years ago)

He only throws in the bit about being a fan because he wants to cover all of his bases, a typical music critic tactic.

― strawman noisedude # 00192 (deangulberry), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 23:00 (twenty-one years ago)

I am in agreement with Ronan here, I think it's a bit much to take it as a personal attack in and of itself, and the responses on this thread only give credence to his accusations. Honestly the way you guys are acting all offended is a bit, ahem, underage

― TOMBOT 64 (TOMBOT 64), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 23:00 (twenty-one years ago)

it just reads grudgeful rather than informed. maybe i'm crazy too, but aren't there are a shitload of women in noise bands too? there's at least as many as there have always been in rock and punk and indie bands. i don't look around and go, "jeez, look at all the sausage in here, thank god!"

and all the negatized comments... about middle-browness (who really cares i guess, but...), ... about ayler's stoogery... a lot of "jee, they're gay hippies!!" type stuff about shotm... is that a real legitimate putdown? the mysogyny. the wankery.

the whole article comes off loosely like my in-law does about sushi, "who in jesus's name would wanna eat that??!?!"

is it really some kind of personal grudge vs. noize dudes?
m.

― msp (msp), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 23:00 (twenty-one years ago)

personal grudge vs anyone not in a dead end.

― Spinning Down Alone You Spin Alive (ex machina), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 23:01 (twenty-one years ago)

I blame bulbs!

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 23:02 (twenty-one years ago)

AHA, A TYPICAL MUSIC CRITIC TACTIC, I WILL USE ONE LINERS ABOUT HIS SOCIAL LIFE TO REBUT

― TOMBOT 64 (TOMBOT 64), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 23:03 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm not offended because it comes off like he has a grudge (it does), but because it's poorly informed and doesn't develop enough context for what he's trying to express.

like I said before: FORMULATE ONE THESIS.

― Ian John50n (orion), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 23:04 (twenty-one years ago)

the liberal arts student does not lie

handing in shit like that to a professor would get you a B-

― Spinning Down Alone You Spin Alive (ex machina), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 23:05 (twenty-one years ago)

I HEARD HE ENJOYS CHUBBY LADIES, AND ALSO, I AM UNAPPRECIATIVE OF HIS BROAD, POSSIBLY HOMOPHOBIC, SOCIALLY CONSERVATIVE PROSE STYLINGS, AND HIS LACK OF HEAD HAIR, THE CHARLATAN

― TOMBOT 64 (TOMBOT 64), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 23:05 (twenty-one years ago)

if you've got opinions you can be a writer. at least if you can accuse the article of being shit then you must know something.

I don't think I'd ever pretend to be a fan of something to cover bases, if I wasn't, what would be the point? people are going to get annoyed anyway, always, somebody. I think it's a good piece because it's got a certain amount of conflict, it's not a cut and dried resounding approval or total panning, like most shitty amateur critic reviews end up being.

It's good because there's as much of Jess in it as there is of Wolf Eyes and he never even discusses himself. Maybe it's easy to make personal attacks because of this, it's a piece that's full of character from the very start, and you guys know the character.

anyway I don't really want to argue about it, I just think making jokes about someone being depressed or unhappy cos you don't like an article they wrote is fucking stupid and childish.

x-post Ian fair enough but it's a short newspaper article for people who probably know nothing, there are limitations of the publication to deal with aswell. it's very very hard to write the comprehensive piece, except perhaps on an internet blog and even then, what's perfect to the fan is gibberish to the casual reader, communicating successfully to either is important.

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 23:06 (twenty-one years ago)

DOES HE THINK THEY'RE THE LIBERTINES? xpost

― Spinning Down Alone You Spin Alive (ex machina), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 23:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Tom I am not covering all of my bases. I think that Jess' online persona is pathetic and this article is evidence of that and is quite laughable. I see no need to get up in arms about it. I'd rather make jokes and let him think he's correct because he's obviously already made up his mind on this subject.

― strawman noisedude # 00192 (deangulberry), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 23:07 (twenty-one years ago)

what, make jokes about the fact you're happier than he is, or not depressed????

yeah well done dude, hilarious. what age are you?

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 23:10 (twenty-one years ago)

It's good because there's as much of Jess in it as there is of Wolf Eyes and he never even discusses himself

Sure, but he comes across as a bitter, jaded old fuck--and who wants to something so full of negativity? I doubt his "wider audience" understands the references/slams towards noize dudes as nerds/frat boys/hippies/faggots/whatever it is he's trying to say.

― Ian John50n (orion), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 23:10 (twenty-one years ago)

I'd like to hear from a neutral party.

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 23:11 (twenty-one years ago)

I love the homophobic digs in there

― Spinning Down Alone You Spin Alive (ex machina), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 23:11 (twenty-one years ago)

ask ILM; they're "neutral" and "objective."

― Ian John50n (orion), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 23:12 (twenty-one years ago)

I mostly find it amusing that someone so full of contradictions has the audacity to print articles in newspapers suggesting what other people should be thinking.

― strawman noisedude # 00192 (deangulberry), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 23:12 (twenty-one years ago)

the posturing on this thread just makes it sound like you guys feel THREATENED by this review. CALLED OUT BY OUR NATURAL FOE THE JUNIOR BOYS ENTHUSIAST! TO WAR!

― TOMBOT 64 (TOMBOT 64), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 23:12 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2004/20041108l.jpg

― TOMBOT 64 (TOMBOT 64), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 23:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Did you draw that, Tom?

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 23:13 (twenty-one years ago)

THE JR. BOYS ARE GREAT

― ALLMUSIC.COM (ddb), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 23:13 (twenty-one years ago)

i have liked jess's writing for his general gut punch quality too... even if you don't agree with him, he brings out an opinion and many writers suck at that.

it's just sort of annoying to hear what i think are derogatory remarks made about a scene a bunch of us participate in on some level.

i've certainly heard the "jock"/"macho" comment about the punk/hardcore/noize scene before... i've felt it before. but it doesn't make it true.

i just feel a little like jess got his info from wire magazine, not a wolf eyes show. or attending several noise gigs of varying types.
m.

― msp (msp), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 23:14 (twenty-one years ago)

he's a really fucking good writer

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 23:39 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't personally think this piece is a very good example of such, gabbneb, though OTOH it contains nothing of interest to me so I might just be skimming it.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 23:48 (twenty-one years ago)

the only thing I want to say has little to do with most of this. Yes, I always found the noise scene even more dominated by men then rock in general, but there were always women. No, my main issue is the idea the noise is just this fist-punching testosterone fest. To some segments, it's more of a spiritual thing then that. When I saw Merzbow in the 90s, there was one man and one woman on stage standing still at a table of devices, and one man doing Tai Chi with a microphone, slowly, while the entire audience was pretty much frozen on the spot, half bowed over as if praying. That's what noise was to me.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Thursday, 11 November 2004 00:42 (twenty-one years ago)

so otm. it's always a mesmerizing experience going to noise shows. probably because EVERYONE is stoned (bands and audience). the only reason these things turn into testosterone mosh fests is fuckwads trying to start shit.

― JaXoN (JasonD), Thursday, 11 November 2004 00:53 (twenty-one years ago)

taco bell has nothing to do with hardcore

― Spinning Down Alone You Spin Alive (ex machina), Thursday, 11 November 2004 00:53 (twenty-one years ago)

How about that Faxed Head song about recording in Taco Bell's bathroom?

― back to Thor (Thor), Thursday, 11 November 2004 01:34 (twenty-one years ago)

isnt that "rap"?

― Spinning Down Alone You Spin Alive (ex machina), Thursday, 11 November 2004 01:36 (twenty-one years ago)

no it's "hip hop."

― back to Thor (Thor), Thursday, 11 November 2004 01:40 (twenty-one years ago)

but see it's hardcore hip hop.

― back to Thor (Thor), Thursday, 11 November 2004 01:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Results 1 - 10 of about 30,000 for making mountains out of molehills. (0.39 seconds)
-- MindInRewind (brune...), November 11th, 2004 8:12 PM.

^^^^^^^THIS GUY. HE'S CLEVER!

― back to Thor (Thor), Thursday, 11 November 2004 01:46 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah, dude's a physicist, of course he's clever!

― Ian John50n (orion), Thursday, 11 November 2004 01:47 (twenty-one years ago)

as opposed TO HARDCORE TECHNO?

― Spinning Down Alone You Spin Alive (ex machina), Thursday, 11 November 2004 01:50 (twenty-one years ago)

yes, or HARDCORE MOUNTAIN CLIMBING/NALGENE BOTTLING

― back to Thor (Thor), Thursday, 11 November 2004 01:52 (twenty-one years ago)

MindInRewind is a neat dude.

― gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 11 November 2004 02:47 (twenty-one years ago)

I re-read the article and I don't like it as much as the first time around. and that line reads like it's in there to get high-fives from the alt-weekly contingent that bemoans the "new direction" of ILX.

― Riot Gear! (Gear!), Thursday, 11 November 2004 04:03 (twenty-one years ago)

it doesn't matter much /why/ it was in there, it's just unnecessary.

― Ian John50n (orion), Thursday, 11 November 2004 04:11 (twenty-one years ago)

It *was* unnecessary, but that's exactly why we don't need to make a big deal about it ... it's Jess spouting his usual trail of bile and four-letter words, nothing more, nothing less.

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 11 November 2004 06:10 (twenty-one years ago)

(hence my google search)

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 11 November 2004 06:10 (twenty-one years ago)

funny thing is that bile spewing jess is the jess who frequently appeared on ilx and who seems like he might actually fit a noize board. this the first time he's managed that persona in print?

― bulbs (bulbs), Thursday, 11 November 2004 08:39 (twenty-one years ago)

I just remembered why I am bored out of my mind by nearly all writing about music, and knowing that the people who created a thread like this like Wolf Eyes makes me 1000X more likely to go listen to Wolf Eyes than anything written in the fucking Village Voice, which I also don't care about anymore. Although I did check there yesterday to find that, of course, J Hoberman couldn't get over himself enough to figure out why Team America was funny.

― daria g (daria g), Thursday, 11 November 2004 10:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Hey, I write for the Village Voice! And I'm awesome! Though, I haven't written anything lately. I'm trying to write a book.

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 11 November 2004 14:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Dan Selzer otm. I always thought that the nonlinear nature of noise was the inverse of testorene-driven, because it doesn't build to some bogus climax; it's not all driving in one direction, but in a thousand directions at once. The thing about that article is, it seems to hold the "noise scene" (and I frankly have a hard time placing Wolf Eyes and SHOTM in the same phylum, but whatevs, story for another day) to an incredibly high political standard. It makes me wonder how come these yardsticks so often come out when gender or identity is at issue, but not when class or commerce is in play?

― rasheed wallace (rasheed wallace), Thursday, 11 November 2004 17:35 (twenty-one years ago)

difference between Ian's thread is that he and Jon are knowledgeable and really happy to spread the word about the music, and they don't consider themselves to be above it all, like some dull detached observer.

Jess article = those dudes who sit in a sound booth narrating PBS specials about bengal tigers
Ian thread = that Australian dude who gets in there and wrestles alligators

― Riot Gear! (Gear!), Thursday, 11 November 2004 17:38 (twenty-one years ago)

that was meant to be a compliment, really!

― Riot Gear! (Gear!), Thursday, 11 November 2004 17:38 (twenty-one years ago)

hahahhaa. thanks gear!

― Ian John50n (orion), Thursday, 11 November 2004 17:41 (twenty-one years ago)

also, ian doesn't get hit in the balls by record store employees

― Spinning Down Alone You Spin Alive (ex machina), Thursday, 11 November 2004 18:05 (twenty-one years ago)

― Riot Gear! (Gear!), Thursday, 11 November 2004 18:06 (twenty-one years ago)

my favorite Carvell thing was this...he called me a noise/frat boy/racist.

or maybe: indie-fratboy u.s. "noise rock" "prl" pedantic "oh i didnt really say that" letter not spirit of the law assholes in quasi-racist "wigger" jokes shocker

-- strongo hulkington (dubplatestyl...), March 10th, 2004.

OTM!

― ALLMUSIC.COM (ddb), Thursday, 11 November 2004 18:10 (twenty-one years ago)

did you guys know you have to be a member of the KKK to post on the noise board?

― Ian John50n (orion), Thursday, 11 November 2004 18:14 (twenty-one years ago)

I keep starting responses on the other thread then deleting them. I really shouldn't enter the fray at all.

Wolf Eyes/Freedom From etc, is a certain noise scene, but it's just a really limited way of looking at things, speaking as someone who's "noise" collection was filled with stuff like Xpressway stuff, Simon Wickham-Smith and Richard Youngs, Skullflower/Total etc. And people talk about the fascistic element and this immature use of confrontational imagery as if it's something new, and not an ongoing recurring aspect of confrontational music, both punk and noise. The Electric Eels using swastikas on flyers, Pere Ubu and Final Solution and the sleeve to the Modern Dance, Throbbing Gristle, Joy Division/New Order, fucking Siouxsie Sioux wore swastika armbands. Some bands use the imagery to get attention, to shock, some use it it to "explore" the darker side of human nature. Big Black anyone? Don't even get started on Whitehouse or Ramleh's fascination with british serial killers. Is there a line that shouldn't get crossed? Yes. In fact, at the above Merzbow show in cleveland, the opening band was a "noise" project fronted by Dwid from Integrity. He stood behind a lectern, wore a face mask and an arm band and pumped his fist. The room was filled with hardcore kids and it was extremely scary. That's the kind of noise music Jess would really hate. Of course you'd walk outside and I was there with many dozen dorky kids waiting for Merzbow. Actually, Massonna went on in between and in 5 minutes, blew away both acts!

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Thursday, 11 November 2004 19:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Great post Dan... just wanted to add Boyd Rice/NON to the list of confrotational (and controverial) artists in the vein of the ones you mentioned.

― gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 11 November 2004 19:15 (twenty-one years ago)

(you'd think an editor would have excised that "internet messageboard" line. hm)

― Riot Gear! (Gear!), Thursday, 11 November 2004 19:16 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't think that Village Voice Media publications are particularly noted for their rigorous editorial standards.

― rasheed wallace (rasheed wallace), Thursday, 11 November 2004 19:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Isn't Matos the editor? Sounds like he has the same grudge.

― sowhatifimonmysticrecords (deangulberry), Thursday, 11 November 2004 19:48 (twenty-one years ago)

It's worth noting that the in the same newspaper where the chauvinism of the noise scene is decried, there's an article about how buying a house may be "the fastest way to lose a man" and another piece reminding women that it might be advisable to remove dangly jewelry before operating power tools.

― rasheed wallace (rasheed wallace), Thursday, 11 November 2004 19:55 (twenty-one years ago)

The writing staff is Jess, Tom Leykis and Oprah.

― sowhatifimonmysticrecords (deangulberry), Thursday, 11 November 2004 19:57 (twenty-one years ago)

you know I'll defend White House's right to do whatever the fuck they want to the death but that doesn't mean I can't call them out for having nothing to back it up, sucking eggs and being fucking boring. There's a difference. It's not as if Jess is saying don't do any of this. He's just saying it's fucking dull. "edgy" noise dudes vs. bigpants hippy raver shit vs. country music crew cuts and moustaches, whatever, Stevo and Pontius have their own wildlife show now and Tom Green is old hat, you want to not get pigeonholed then stop being so fucking predictable. Confrontational imagery of any sort is right up there with the karate kid/roadhouse musicals at this point, New England indie dropouts drive like THIS

The level of defensiveness expressed as a result of this piece (not to mention the schoolyard responses) really has done nothing but make Jess look totally OTM in his assessment, that's nice there's a fanbase out there besides this board that doesn't act like this (so you all say (and yes I know there is but it's not exactly massive is it)) but for the most part this is really just, I don't know, sad?

― TOMBOT 64 (TOMBOT 64), Thursday, 11 November 2004 20:05 (twenty-one years ago)

also it goes without saying that Masonna would blow away both acts in five minutes, dude, it doesn't even matter what 'both acts' are

do you know what blew my mind?
when Bomb 20 showed up merzbow vs. alec empire at CBGBs in 1998! we were like WHOA WHY DID HIS ALBUM SUCK SO BAD?

― TOMBOT 64 (TOMBOT 64), Thursday, 11 November 2004 20:07 (twenty-one years ago)

I have no problem with anyone saying Wolf Eyes are dull, or Whitehouse is dull. For the record, I think both are completely boring. I just think Jess's article picks a small aspect of a certain scene and expands it in his criticism. First he talkes about Keenan's noise primer and is dismissive of "noise" completely:

According to received wisdom, noise is a bulwark against pop, a venue to be scatological in public, a rent in the social fabric. It's also shockingly middlebrow, very white, and masculine to the point of camp. (Keenan described noise grandpa Merzbow's guitarmy recordings as a "series of endless money shots.") Its anti-PC slant usually masks a pathology no deeper than the desire to act like a seventh-grader in public, but occasionally spills into real fascism or nihilism. Needless to say, it's very insular.

When what he's really talking about is a specific type of noise fan of a specific type of fan. He's really being critical of a young, white, immature, male fanbase of certain types of recent noise acts that mostly grow out of the young, white, male hardcore scene. What does Merzbow have to do with this?

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Thursday, 11 November 2004 20:17 (twenty-one years ago)

That's great that you feel that way Tom. Congratulations.

― sowhatifimonmysticrecords (deangulberry), Thursday, 11 November 2004 20:19 (twenty-one years ago)

i dunno. i stopped caring not long after the initial explosion of caring...

the hansen list sort of responded with a, "jeez, that guy's dumb." but that's about it.

the article provokes a knee jerk if you're a noise fan. to not react feels dishonest. if somebody calls me a mysogynst, fascist, insular, homoerotic (yet likely to call someone a "faggot"), jocko-macho, etc etc, i'm likely to feel punched. and sure, jess didn't drop it all in such a concise bomb, but...
m.

― msp (msp), Thursday, 11 November 2004 20:19 (twenty-one years ago)

specific type of noise fan of a specific type of fan

that should read "of a specific type of noise...

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Thursday, 11 November 2004 20:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Whitehouse is fucking boring. I didn't think a track called Gilles de Rais could be boring, but it was. .. maybe in a couple years some of you guys will be looking at yr record collections & saying, holy shit, why did I think I needed that holy grail of a rare split 7" that I spent $30 to get & never even listen to? I did that kind of thing in undergrad and OK, I still play the Birthday Party albums, but I don't know why I even own early Swans and stuff.

Not singling out the Village Voice in particular for criticism, but in general unabashed enthusiasm for a particular band/record matters more to me than an academic analysis. (But I'm also on a rampage against academe & it's probably a knee-jerk reaction right now.)

Also, I don't see why one can't be simultaneously introspective and shout "faggot" on a crowded message board.

― daria g (daria g), Thursday, 11 November 2004 22:02 (twenty-one years ago)

i talk about whitehouse a lot not because i really like what he's doing (i often don't), but because it's easy to point to as an example.

― Ian John50n (orion), Thursday, 11 November 2004 22:11 (twenty-one years ago)

I think that a lot of big music fans are doomed to have a point sometime 2-5 years down the road after leaving college where they look at their record collection after moving it into another apartment or some such and go How in the world did I ever think owning a giant record collection was a good idea or even necessary?

haha yeah whitehouse is always to be made an example of

― TOMBOT 64 (TOMBOT 64), Thursday, 11 November 2004 22:15 (twenty-one years ago)

i actually don't think i've ever heard any whitehouse. now, firehouse, that's a different story.

tombot otm about the collection woe. i really wish there was a way i could have the tunes without the luggage. the saddest part is that most of it goes unlistened to.

high speed internet + college radio streams = sell my collection? 6 out of 7 wives say, "YES!!!" (no, i'm not mormon...)
m.

― msp (msp), Thursday, 11 November 2004 22:22 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.werenotsorry.com/images/tommytime2.jpg

― Spinning Down Alone You Spin Alive (ex machina), Thursday, 11 November 2004 22:24 (twenty-one years ago)

records need to be heard not owned. i rent them essentially: buy them, sell them/give them away.

i am not a collector.

1992.

go back to bloody scotland.

-- gygax! (gygax0...), September 21st, 2004 3:07 PM. (gygax!)

depending on the weather, i prefer live music to recorded.

-- gygax! (gygax0...), September 21st, 2004 3:08 PM. (gygax!)

― gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 11 November 2004 22:25 (twenty-one years ago)

I agree with daria that the "academic analysis" style of music writing is exhausting. There's a lot of shopworn theory that music writers (and to be sure, lots of other kinds of writers) have been carrying around in their toolboxes for way too long. A lot of it is lame, half-digested poststructuralism, vestiges of the Sedgwick, Zizek, Butler, Derrida, and other "criticism" that many of us had crammed down our throats in college. Most of it long ago ceased to be intellectually exciting or to provide useful prisms through which to look at art, and much of the writing that relies on it does nothing to advance these moribund ideas. And of course, the real shame of it all is that many of the people who cling to theory most vociferously are exponentially better prose stylists than their academic heroes.

― rasheed wallace (rasheed wallace), Thursday, 11 November 2004 22:31 (twenty-one years ago)

when I graduated I sold the entire Table of the Elements 7" guitar series and a few No Neck records to Other. Paid my rent for a month or two.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Thursday, 11 November 2004 22:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Jess article = those dudes who sit in a sound booth narrating PBS specials about bengal tigers
Ian thread = that Australian dude who gets in there and wrestles alligators
This is OTM, but Jess' article wasn't meant to be an in-depth analysis, it was pretty much a puff piece on a few bands which could be loosely and tentatively grouped together as "noise".

The article will provoke two types of responses, 1) people with a passing interest in the bands he discussed will be encouraged to check them out (which he succeeded in doing based on the reactions on the other thread), 2) people who will freak the fuck out at Jess' description of Wolf Eyes' music and never think about it again (probably 97% of the people who will see the article). Wolf Eyes aren't for everyone, and I think he does a decent job (with some deft analogies and a whole lotta swearing) of weeding out the people who won't enjoy the music. Again, mission accomplished.

Of course, in order to make these points he unfortunately adheres to some (misguided) stereotypes, which is certainly a glaring weakness of the article. But I don't think that detracts from advertising the music to the people who may be interested in hearing it.

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 11 November 2004 23:03 (twenty-one years ago)

otm

― Spinning Down Alone You Spin Alive (ex machina), Thursday, 11 November 2004 23:15 (twenty-one years ago)

barry, I like you.

― Remy (x Jeremy), Friday, 12 November 2004 02:09 (twenty-one years ago)

lame, half-digested poststructuralism, vestiges of the Sedgwick, Zizek, Butler, Derrida, and other "criticism" that many of us had crammed down our throats in college.

gaaaah. yeah. So unfortunate. Meanwhile, over in the academy, those who have chosen to pursue advanced degrees in this stuff are getting hella respect from their mentors: Doctoral Student, Scholar, Baby Sitter?

― daria g (daria g), Friday, 12 November 2004 02:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Thanks guys. This looks like the first and last time we'll have this discussion about Jess ... according to his blog, he's done with ILM for good. No more jabs at "internet message boards", since he'll have no more fresh material.

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Friday, 12 November 2004 05:48 (twenty-one years ago)

drag

― Riot Gear! (Gear!), Friday, 12 November 2004 06:31 (twenty-one years ago)

What's his current blog address?

― Jeff-PTTL (Jeff), Friday, 12 November 2004 16:01 (twenty-one years ago)

shutyrgob.blogspot.com

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 12 November 2004 19:48 (twenty-one years ago)

yay fraggle rock.

― LSTD (answer) (sexyDancer), Friday, 12 November 2004 20:33 (twenty-one years ago)

woah, someone got angry and deleted ade's post!

it's a cabbage, FWIW.

― Ian John50n (orion), Friday, 12 November 2004 20:44 (twenty-one years ago)

i made it through 10 posts of the ILM version of this thread. Did i miss anything?

― Felonious Drunk (Felcher), Friday, 12 November 2004 20:57 (twenty-one years ago)

it gets way better about 100 posts in when people stop arguing with jon about whether or not jess was attacking noize dudes.

― Ian John50n (orion), Friday, 12 November 2004 20:59 (twenty-one years ago)

my dick

― Spinning Down Alone You Spin Alive (ex machina), Friday, 12 November 2004 20:59 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah, also jon's dick.

― Ian John50n (orion), Friday, 12 November 2004 21:02 (twenty-one years ago)

I hear Jess is in town (nyc) this weekend. you should have a noize tea party for him.

― S!monB!rch (Carey), Friday, 12 November 2004 21:03 (twenty-one years ago)

dude I wasn't gonna point that out.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Friday, 12 November 2004 22:44 (twenty-one years ago)

i am leaving new york this weekend.
fuck a jess harvell noize tea party; dude would just talk shit.

― Ian John50n (orion), Friday, 12 November 2004 22:46 (twenty-one years ago)

why no gay webcam porn on this thread?!

― mark p (Mark P), Saturday, 13 November 2004 01:14 (twenty-one years ago)

something like it:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v208/jcoombs/nakedme.gif

― Remy (x Jeremy), Saturday, 13 November 2004 05:23 (twenty-one years ago)

I APPROVE OF YOUR UNDERGARMENT CHOICE, JEREMY

― Ian John50n (orion), Saturday, 13 November 2004 05:39 (twenty-one years ago)

that's ca. 1999! I am thinner and more muscled now!

― Remy (x Jeremy), Saturday, 13 November 2004 05:41 (twenty-one years ago)

are you still ralph maccio?

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Saturday, 13 November 2004 07:40 (twenty-one years ago)

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