What was the worst culture you ever experienced?

when you mentioned you were in france I thought later: 'i didn't ask miss laura abt whether she sees any gigs over there or what there is for entertainment?' the above prob ans my question.

East Germans, however, are lovely folks.

That, and the food sucked and was overpriced to boot, plus the Alps are better on the French and Italian sides of the border.

Given that France has long been regarded as a centre of high culture, it's really puzzling that there's a big gaping hole where music is concerned. Think about it. How many French musicians can you think of? Air, Daft Punk, Lofofora, Beurier Noir….uh, that's about it. The biggest name in rock is Johnny Hallyday & he's over 50! & it's not because they just haven't reached international acclaim. The local scene is pretty weak. I look in the Pariscope every week & the music listings are thin for a large city. There is, however, a lot of rap, reggae & world music( which is fine if you like that kind of thing but I don't). That just proves my point further. All that is an effect of the large immigrant population but is not indigenous to France.

Recently, I went to see a band les Drageurs. It was a lot of fun, sure, but 60's garage rock isn't particularly innovative or anything.
Before the show started, they were projecting this 1960's movie called "She-Devils on Wheels" about a motorcycle gang in matching day-glo vests, "The Man-Eaters". It was pretty funny but that's been so done before.

TV is a sewer. Last night's offerings were the French Weakest Link, a kareoke game show, a dry political talk show, and a soap opera. The best thing I've seen so far was about a crime-fighting midget with magical powers (not as good as that sounds, though).

When French people tell you that how fabulous their culture is, they're LYING. All the good stuff is from ages ago. There's nothing new, it's just trash.

What a shame ... that sounds like it should be the greatest TV show ever!

Shit, if all we exported were films by Martin Scorsese or David Lynch, and kept all the rest of the crap over here, some people would think that our films are all real high-falutin' too.

thinking abt gigs, there must be american bands pasing through every now and then.

the TV sounds pretty awful. the midget idea sounds really funny tho'.

also, you forgot to mention Serge Gainsbourg and Jean Michel Jarre who are surely still adored in the country - i've never heard of the two you mentioned after Air and Daft Punk" other (relatively) successful and well known musicians to emanate from France are Jean Jacques-Perry, Laurent Garnier, Francoise Hardy, Alex Gopher, Kid Loco, Cassius/Motorbass/Mighty Bop, MC Solaar, Phoenix, Rhinocerose, Telepopmuzik...the irony is that this lot tend to sell more records in France's surrounding countries (esp. the UK) which i think is crazy - still, if they will sing in English...

having said all that, i've not yet visited France so cant argue your criticisms properly

Sure, there might be some items that are similar to something people wore in America 5 years ago but I don't think the French are travelling the same path, like they're not going to be wearing next season what Americans were wearing 4 years ago. They're doing their own thing.

Nobody in their right mind would read Pariscope to get music tips in Paris. Nova magazine is better. Liberation might send you somewhere more interesting. Above all, you'd hear about interesting events by keeping up with what's going on at the Batofar, a lighthouse boat moored on the Seine, or by hanging out with people in Menilmontant cafes and just asking what they recommend.

France is actually in a very good place musically just now, better than it's been for years, and better than most other countries in terms of cutting edge activity. Record labels like Bip Hop, Ski-pp, Clapping Music, Active Suspension, Goom, Evenement 0 and Microbe are springing up, pioneering a kind of playful electronica which merges pop music, Japanese influences, and DSP laptop stuff in very interesting ways. Check out groups like DAT Politics or solo artists like O. Lamm. Etienne Charry's new album (Tricatel) is excellent.

There are few galleries anywhere in the world better than the renovated Palais de Tokyo and the renovated Centre Georges Pompidou. Both host musical events. There is increasing cross-fertilization between designers, film-makers, musicians, visual artists. For instance, the Buro Organisation, who hold headphone webcast linkups with Tokyo comprising live music sessions featuring people like Dragibus and Mami Chan. The Paris - Tokyo link is strong.

>TV is a sewer.

Again, it depends what you choose to watch. Switch to Arte tonight (Tuesday) at midnight and you'll see a programme of short video pieces celebrating 'music and silence' which I think you'll find more adventurous than just about any TV you could see on any network in the world. That's if you don't find it 'pretentious', of course.

http://www.arte-tv.com/emission/emission.jsp?node=-1777&lang=fr

The large immigrant population is now indigenous to France. To say otherwise is to go down the path of Le Penisme.

Also, the fact that Paris is the centre of World Music (with amazing access to African music, for instance) is a lot to do with a longstanding French fascination with 'the exotic' and 'the other'. Certainly, the French could be accused of 'orientalism', but ask yourself whether it's better to put 'the Other' on a pedestal or to ignore 'the Other' all together? The presence in Paris of so many artists from all countries pretty much answers that question.

However, I always regarded the Brits as the ones obsessed about "exotism", further more than the French, and always linked this obsession with travelling to hot and distant countries with many native dangerous insects as a kind of distortion of the Romantic idea of "voyage" in the early 19th century. Spain or Greece were exotic enough for the British intellectuals till the arrival of tour operators, must be said.

PeterMiller: what is rotten in Catalonia? You talk about their Quebecoises pretensions or something else?

Surprisingly, this made them oddly accepting and un-snobbish of others... thinking about it, I liked them... far worse were their cousins who wrapped themselves in afghan shawls and talked patronisingly to tramps in the street about their gap-year experiences in India, the dreaded "ethno yahs".

The large immigrant population is now indigenous to France. To say otherwise is to go down the path of Le Penisme. (Momus)

Woah, let's back that trolley up. I think you've misunderstood me. I mean that French culture has been enriched by the influx of other cultures. It seems to me that without the influence of world music there would just be a big sucking vacuum. Music does not seem to have the same importance here as it does in other cultures.

By definition, immigrants are not indigenous. That was probably a poor choice of word (out of laziness) but my point still stands that what little Paris has to offer musically is heavily due to world culture and not old traditional French culture. Merely pointing out that France has a multicultural population does not make me a racist! Knee-jerk references to Le Pen are cheap.

Hey, who is? Except some stay-at-home types in the Rift Valley maybe.

momus, i find you pretentious. in a bad way.

or a history of colonialism.

Also, anyone interested in cool Paris would do well to check out Choisy, the 13th Arr. Quartier Asiatique. I find it calming to walk around the kiosks and shops for hours, understanding very little of what's being shouted all around me, grooving on the colours and the new things. Also the cheongsam clothes are the cheapest in Europe.

he talks like a council pamphlet
Pay yer rates-uh! Pay yer water rates-uh!

HA HA mark where would i be without you picking on my posts, day in, day out. I have missed ya.

(my 'excuse'= I'm eating and my fingers are a bit oily from the fried chicken i've been eating so i'm typing quicker than ususal).

'That's such a vast question, but one I've pondered many, many times over the years.  I couldn't really give you a quick answer, as there are pros and cons in both countries. 

I do find the French men to be quite "latin" in their attitudes towards women, in other words they aren't always very comfortable with women taking the initiative in romantic endeavors.  They like to be the ones in charge, generally, the hunter, not the hunted!  But then, I guess the same could be said for the majority of men in America.  Still, I feel that a good percentage of youngish, left-leaning American men are more open-minded about how romance should happen that their French equivalents.  Perhaps I'm idealizing them as I don't live there anymore!

'I also find that in France women fall more readily into a clich of what it is to be "feminine" and sometimes that drives me nuts.  But my sister once said that in the States "everybody is a guy" which may not be the ideal situation either.  I feel that as an American I'm culturally wired to be "a guy", though.  As far as the workplace goes, it's true that in France we do have some open gender discrimination, for example classified ads that say "Seeking secretary, female, 18-25 years old" which in the States is absolutely a no-no, but that doesn't mean that they aren't profiling on the sly in America as well.  At least with the French system a 40 year-old man doesn't waste his time applying for the job, I suppose!'

...and by extension bullshitcocksuckerdumbfuckingtwatABBYGETBENTLowerEastSide culture.

So maybe Paris = great for 'feminine' women and crap for 'unfeminine' ones (annoying inverted commas cause I'm sticking to what I understand to be Momus's sense of the words). And yes, maybe some women would enjoy the chance to become 'feminine' if only they lived in Pari, though others would probably just be intimidated by the whole thing.

yea, maybe its not that bad really. i'd be interested in the views of australians though, the australians i know here are very disappointed in our tv

b) standing up to America an issue in the German elections? Like hell it was. The most gutless hypocritical double-standard electorate in Europe. Scratch Schroeder, find a John Fogerty obsessive (they all are).

well yes, but it depends how you define *standing up to* (ie, i dont really think the germans do, but then i dont think the french do either), but the fact that it was raised means something (at least to sections of the us press who seemed rather worried by the fact that they may not toe the line 100% uk style)

*ahem*. You are not speaking from experience! Maybe that's what you want to think it's like but I've got news for you: Paris is a lousy place to be a woman. What do you think inspired the street harassment question? It is not fun to be followed/hissed at/ yelled at/ accosted/...& many girls have gotten worse. (If anyone's wondering, I look like a boy & dress like a nun so in no way am I provoking this).

The workplace is no better. An example of what goes on here (just a typical example, not extreme or anything, just representative): At work a few days ago, when a woman walked into the room someone remarked on how pretty she looked that day. Ok, that was odd but not too bad. Then he kept going and said how she was getting prettier and prettier every day. Hmm….that's sort of toeing the line but maybe I'm too sensitive. Then he turned to me and said "She's not bad-looking for woman who's getting old, eh?". & then he made a connection between the wasp' nest in her office & her "taille de guêpe" (=wasp waist = hourglass figure). I don't know if she minded or not, she didn't say anything.

I did watch the documentaries on Arte last night but a) I think they were German productions b) they were good but not 'more adventurous than just about any TV you could see on any network in the world. CBC and PBS show programs of similar calibre all the time (when they're not showing the *cough* Air Farce). Next up was Music Planet 2night, hosted by an Englishman and featuring Arno, a Belgian that sings in English most of the time, & everybody's favorite Frenchman, Craig Armstrong. As for the experimental videos, nevermind pretentious, they were just ridiculous.

I'm sticking to my guns on this one. French culture is over-rated. I will give them credit for an excellent movie scene, though. There are about 300 different movies showing every week encompassing a wide variety of styles/subjects/periods/countries. Beats the selection down at the local mega-plex at home.

The girl feel was very weird. We were sitting opposite each other and she leant over and started stroking my knee, so surreptitiously I didn't notice at first. When I realised what she was up to I thought 'hell, I haven't shaved for a week, my knees must be dead prickly'. Then I changed seat. She looked a bit like Whoopi Goldberg.

really? what I saw of tv over there was bloody awful. all BBC mini-series and low budget entertainment shows. Mind you, lots of Rex Hunt and sport.

am I the only Brit who finds the constant reference in our press to the "Franco-German axis" baffling for this reason? personally I see Europe as essentially divided between North and South, and the French as a northern Mediterranean people who essentially have very little in common with the Germans. Britain *is* incontrivertibly a European country, but a North European one along with Germany, the Low Countries and Scandinavia. France is a completely different *thing*: no wonder the British tend not to trust it (have you ever heard anyone in this country who *fears* the Scandinavians or the Dutch? isn't a lot of the anti-German schtick just glorified football talk?)

Funny this should come up, because one of my own impressions of the French was that, culturally, they couldn't make up their minds whether they wanted to be more like the Germans (efficient, orderly) or more like the Spanish.

Chris, is that Australian rhyming slang?

Robin, I think the French have a kind of fantasy of themselves as Latins, or almost-Latins, the same way British people think of themselves as almost-Americans. The narcissism of small differences leads them to stress what sets them apart from the Britons and the Germans on either side. The obvious way to do that is to play up their 'southern' qualities -- their hotbloodedness, their machismo, their quickness to anger and reconciliation, their love of art and their ability to live slowly and sensually, to understand 'the art of living'.

All this is a snub to the grim uptight Protestants on either side of them. It sometimes shades into a weird phenomenon whereby the French become 'the Other' even to themselves. 'We are different. We are 'l'exception francaise'. We are almost north African, almost middle eastern, almost oriental.' They romanticise themselves the same way they romanticise Iranians or Japanese. Which is one reason why French films almost all seem to be made for export (like all Iranian films). Paris itself is not really a city for indigenous natives, but a city 'for export', to be consumed as something 'exotic' by foreigners and tourists as well as by its natives.

could this be true of london, new york, tokyo also? perhaps of huge cities that sometimes seem only tenuously linked to their host countries

Are you sure about this? I haven't seen any evidence of this myself. I mean maybe as a de facto assessment, but not as a 'fantasy'. If you're talking about consumption of American TV, films, food etc., I don't think we're much different to the rest of Europe. And knee-jerk anti-American snobbery is v.common amongst large sections of the middle classes.

I love New York, Mary. But even the nice O1 'celebrity' visas I was getting in the US had a nasty tendency to run out after a year or so. I went through two of those, and the next step would have to have been to marry an American or something.

(Hmm, female name, NYU student... Mary, will you marry me?)

*blush* I'm flattered, but I need to get a lot of other things settled in my life first!

Which seems to have been what all of Momus's research here digs up: he's possibly quite right in his impression that French (or Japanese) women are more connected to and confident in their actual gender-definition "femininity," since that essentialist definition is widespread and not in the least seen as negative or restrictive to women. American and maybe British women, on the other hand, have approached feminism more as a rejection of that essentialism -- more of an assertion of equal competence and the "same" possibilities; I think this process has been pretty vexed, though, with plenty of American women hesitant to give up on certain essentialist or constructed ideas of femininity that they enjoy, or that they still on some level feel validated or successful through.

Anyway, the point is that Suzy is right and none of this has to do with the nuts and bolts of actual equality, actual economic parity, actual freedom from discrimination or harrassment or whatever else. All Momus is getting at is the fundamental question of feminism or really any similar group-movement: is the claim that you are inherently distinct and different and you want your distinctly different role to be acknowledged as equally important? Or is the claim that you are not-different, equal in every way to your more priviledged counterparts, and you want them to treat you as an equal unrestricted undefined individual just as they can often treat one another? Both of those requests can lead to "equality," of sorts -- only the former defines people, offers us a sort of "different but equal" that seems a bit more difficult to call "equal" in practice and which many might claim to be inherently unequal even in theory.

This made me laugh because "issue" is an ancient estates law term for descendants.

Kneejerk anti-Americanism on a social and cultural level was also very prominent in the Tory party pre-Thatcher, and the Labour party pre-Blair: Atlanticism did not really dominate British political discourse before 1979 (of course we weren't in the Common Market until 1973 ... in the 60s a lot of our affinities were still with the Commonwealth, and there was the job of "putting the Empire to bed", so to speak, diplomatically overseeing the independences).

Momus - I think you have it right about 'l'exception francaise'. Gareth's comment is slightly odd because a lot of people say that Paris is recognisably "French" in a way that London isn't "English" ... London has left a lot of the old national signifiers and values behind, Paris holds on to the equivalent.

Well, Gainsbourg was a dilettante and a bandwagon-jumper. He would go African for one album ('Percussions') then British for the next. Having no permanent band, he was free to hop on a plane to Jamaica to use Sly and Robbie if he wanted. So for certain periods (say from 'Teeny Weeny Boppy' to '69 Annee Erotique' he was Anglophile. It wasn't hard; James Bond and The Beatles, amongst other things, had made Britain the epitome of cool all over the world. (Gainsbourg had a definite 007 fetish -- he married Bond composer John Barry's ex-wife, he posed on one of his records as a bespoke besuited misanthropist with red roses and a gun.) Jane Birkin was of course English, so he was buying into the 'exoticism' (ha!) of English women on a sexual level too. And although he couldn't drive, he had a Rolls Royce -- a glorified ashtray, he claimed.

G's anglophilia should also be seen as part of the snob style of the Paris BCBG class. Although G wasn't exactly BCBG, he did affect an aristocratic disdain. And remember, he even changed his original name -- Ginsberg -- to that of a rather stuffy British painter (although he dropped the H, not very 'classe').

2) how would you translate "L'amour physique est sans issue" from Je T'Aime,

That song is very hard to translate, I know, I've tried. I think I resorted to 'the act of love is a cul de sac' for that line (translating French into French, very clever!). Literally it means 'physical love is without issue', ie is barren, does not lead to babies. This is a constant theme in Gainsbourg -- it also appears in 'Une Histoire Sensuelle et Sans Suite'. I think it relates to two or three things. First, remember that the birth control pill was a fairly new invention at this point, and revolutionising sexual relations. It's about that. Also, remember that G was an aesthete, and that it was important to him that sex should stand on its own as something pointless and even nihilistic, rather than something instrumental (and Catholic!) like reproduction. G was very influenced by the Existentialists, the Surrealists, and people like Georges Bataille and Guillaume Apollinaire, who took sexuality to new levels of absurdity in their works. The 'sans issue' line in the song 'Je T'Aime' morphs, in the film 'Je T'Aime' into an exclusive concentration on anal sex between two androgynous people. Gainsbourg admired homosexuality as a higher love in the sense that it's inherently non-instrumental, therefore more absurd and more aesthetic than hetero sex.

3) How cool is Kahimi Karie's redoing the cover of Melody Nelson for her Girly cd?

I'll answer all rhetorical questions on our wedding night, Mary!

*growls*

I hope it's not too late to answer.

I don't, no. The song was written for BB, and anyone who could be 'anti-baise' when confronted with her would have to be stronger of more surreal that G ever was.

Apparently he later said that Je T'Aime was an anti-fuck song (chanson anti-baise).

'Lemon Incest', which could be seen as the infant of 'Je T'Aime', is anti-baise. He has Charlotte sing 'The love which we never make is the most exquisite...' Only right and proper, of course, considering the incest taboo. But it also echoes the logical games of 'I love you -- me neither!'

I'm wondering if you would interpret his loucheness as more of a stylistic posturing, Serge himself playing a role of the typical Frenchman, rather than embodying those characteristics?

Jane described him often as a 'faux mechant', a fake bastard, someone putting on an ogre act rather than really being an ogre. Although she did tend to add that when they'd separated and he became 'Gainsbarre', it was pretty hard to see where the faux stopped and the mechant began.

I should mention I'm doing a short review of the biography for the Voice; I'll try not to steal any of your ideas!

Steal away, I'm only quoting other people's books anyway!

Oh, and by the way, I saw Stereo Total last night! It was the jam! Can Brezel Goring be best man?

Veliche, mein liebling!

And now that I have derailed the thread to further my own selfish means, I will try to put things back on track...

Worst culture I have yet experienced would have to be...American suburbia...

I do however have an article online at www.lrb.co.uk/v22/n15/cann01_.html , if you're interested.

Sorry, can't turn it blue. Don't know why.