Why do you write or perform?

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This may have been discussed before and if so, I’d be grateful if the link could be posted.
A friend and I were talking about writing last night and it widened out into a wonderful discussion about the arts in general. But one area in particular that interested me was the whole area of whom exactly do you write or perform for and why? I would imagine that in most cases it’s for a wider audience and in fewer instances, just for yourself - without any need to have your work read or appreciated by anyone else. But is the underlying pay-off for having your work exposed to others, that you have narcissistic tendencies assuaged in some way? Is it that simple? Is it that in general, humans need to be affirmed and accepted and writing or performing is just attempting to do this on a grand scale?

I’m not well read on the subject at all and I was hoping some of the great minds here could share their thoughts and opinions on it. I just know that in our efforts to be as honest as possible with each other, my friend and I admitted that neither of us write for ourselves and that far from trying to contribute to art in general, what we are REALLY trying to do is provoke as many people as possible to tell us how clever and wonderful we are. That may sound incredibly shallow, narcissistic and naïve, but it’s the truth. Are we rare in our insecurity and desire for acceptance? Is it unusual to court attention and affirmation in this way? If I’m honest, I derive very little pleasure from JUST writing a piece of poetry. Where I get most pleasure is when I see others appreciate the work and feed it back to me. It’s only then that I feel the work has been worthwhile.

The same goes for music. I used to sing with a band and even though I loved singing at home on my own, it was only when I was on stage, getting positive reactions, that I really appreciated my talent. Therefore, it was mostly through other’s enjoyment of my singing that I found MY enjoyment. Even today, because I no longer perform in public, I ache with the desire to have those waves of positive audience feedback once again, and as a result of not having it anymore, I very rarely sing.

Freya, Monday, 28 October 2002 16:53 (twenty-three years ago)

I'd love your opinions please.

Freya, Monday, 28 October 2002 16:54 (twenty-three years ago)

if not me, then who?

jess s (dubplatestyle), Monday, 28 October 2002 16:56 (twenty-three years ago)

We might have had a thread or two on this, I'm sure the good N. will find them! My own thoughts -- well, because it's fun. Feedback is certainly appreciated, to be sure! But I think a lot of my writing is in many ways almost self-amusement (or if you prefer self-analysis). This may not be a satisfactory answer to your question as phrased, though -- sounds like you're finding a charge more from performance and immediate response.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 28 October 2002 16:57 (twenty-three years ago)

I don't know Jess, that's why I'm asking the question. Is the way you feel more prevalent than the way we (my mate and I) feel? And is it also possible that because the way you've responded is I would guess, the better reason to write, that some people would answer in this 'correct' way rather than be honest and admit it's something else they require from their writing?

I dunno, just really curious.

Freya, Monday, 28 October 2002 17:08 (twenty-three years ago)

if it i do it for anyone but myself i get self-conscious to the point of stopping. (cf. when i shuttered my previous blog last feb.)

if i do it for myself and no one else, it's a diary and i hate diaries.

i hate writing, by and large, so it's a constant struggle to come up with reasons why i continue to bother. "it's all i know how to do" is pretty fucking lame, but it's the best i've been able to do so far.

i always got more of an immediate charge out of being on stage, but i have no real "talent" at performing (and it falls very low on my list of worthy hobbies), except bleeding and flailing about.

jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 28 October 2002 17:20 (twenty-three years ago)

Why Aren't You A Writer?

N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 28 October 2002 17:25 (twenty-three years ago)

For me the vast majority of the satisfaction really does come in the actual work process itself.

sundar subramanian, Monday, 28 October 2002 17:25 (twenty-three years ago)

I am addicted to finding new music that I really like. One day, I simply decided that I needed to be more self-sufficient. There are alot of bands that I am crazy about, but I still tend to be really picky. So I thought I would try making songs for myself/ creating something I would want to hear. So, those were my good intentions.
On the other hand, performing is very important for me. I feel like recordings of my songs and performances of them sort of document my life. As though if there was no documentation of my creations, then I wouldn't exist. I like to measure my own productivity.
I think it is only natural for people to want approval of their work, no matter what they do. It is not limited to the arts.
* Good luck making sense of all that!

Sarah McLusky (coco), Monday, 28 October 2002 17:44 (twenty-three years ago)

I have done a bit of writing in the last few weeks. i do it becuz i want to know what it feels like to write abt a record.

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 28 October 2002 17:53 (twenty-three years ago)

I can comment on this from a performance aspect:

I love being on stage. I love people watching/hearing me do something I feel I do pretty well. I also love the music and enjoy communicating that love to others. The physical act of singing itself has a huge centering effect on me; if I'm not in a group that sings regularly, I get very depressed and unfocused. A large part of it is "have your cake and eat it too"-ism; I'm not prepared to make the sacrifices necessary to be a full-time professional singer, but I do enough singing on the side that it could be considered a second job (some of it even results in a paycheck). I'm living out my fantasy on a smaller scale with much less financial risk.

Also, one of my singing gigs gets me on national TV every year. I'm two steps away from being famous!

Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 28 October 2002 18:13 (twenty-three years ago)

actually come to think about it, if i still lived in nyc and was back down to "suspiciously anorexic looking" weight, my performance shtick would be perfect for ye olde electroclash.

jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 28 October 2002 18:15 (twenty-three years ago)

I write because I've always written, which is not much of an answer, so I'd better keep typing. I can't imagine not writing, and since nothing else is as satisfying or interesting, I write for money to minimize the amount of fucking around I have to do with boring shit :) (That's also why I'm in grad school: to get student loans to live off of until the writing work becomes more steady.)

Writing is really the only thing I get "job satisfaction" from. I know -- not always right away, but as soon as the just-written feeling fades -- when I've done a good job, when I could have done better, and when something fell flat. I don't do it because of a Muse, or any belief in Art-with-a-capital-A, or because I walk around being all inspired and everything. It's just what I do. Some people like cars, some people like being in a leadership position, I like making shit up.

And cause it's amusing. I don't think there's much I do, if it's avoidable, that isn't amusing :) Writing a story is playing a game.

(How gauche is it to point out that my most recent publication came out today, at Strange Horizons, the first story under Fiction? A bit gauche, I guess.)

Tep (ktepi), Monday, 28 October 2002 18:21 (twenty-three years ago)

Oh, forgot to address feedback. I've always enjoyed it, but for different reasons now. When I was a kid, it was the whole, "Gosh, aren't I swell?" thing. Then after a bit you get sick of "You're very good for your age," because you're a teenager and not very pleased with your age. Then a few magazines reject you, but it's okay, because they didn't say, "But really, it's pretty good for your age," cause they don't know you're 16.

Feedback now is mostly a way for me to gauge how effective one story is compared to another, since how much I enjoy a story is not always indicative of how the readers will feel. So although I like and depend on feedback, it isn't the undiluted ego-stroking it used to be, it's more pragmatic (in the other window, I'm talking to someone who saw an ending of mine coming, and he wasn't sure if it was supposed to be obvious or a surprise, so I'm quizzing him on exactly when he knew how it was going to go down, and whether he minded knowing.)

Tep (ktepi), Monday, 28 October 2002 18:29 (twenty-three years ago)

i write and write and write with absolutely no intention of having anyone read it. but that is 'my ' thing. i am not comfortable showing people my stuff, and i dont enjoy being focussed upon attention-wise.
it is very much a personality thing, and when i consider the people i know who love to perform i agree with you freya that they need /like the feedback and thrive on that as well as the act of performing.
there is nothing wrong with that at all, dont we all try to gain something ( acceptance, confidence-boosts ) from our behaviour in various ways?
besides, it can be a great feeling to share your joy or sadness or whatever, with people who appreciate where you are coming from.
i do that rarely, but then im odd and private.

donna (donna), Monday, 28 October 2002 19:35 (twenty-three years ago)

(you know, could do something to check teh referrer and block these people out, do you want me to?)

Graham (graham), Monday, 28 October 2002 19:42 (twenty-three years ago)

(or give them an answer of course)

Graham (graham), Monday, 28 October 2002 19:42 (twenty-three years ago)

I was never an artist, but as a critic I felt I was doing something of value to others - I'd have felt this far more if I'd been a writer or some such. On the other hand, I was conscious of addressing particular people. It's much the same here. Someone said recently that we are all trying to impress Mark S, and (speaking for myself) there is a disturbing amount of truth in that. When Mark said to me a couple of weeks ago that a post of mine had given him the biggest laugh of the last fortnight, I felt so pleased! It's a bit pathetic to admit that, I think. But it's not just Mark, obviously - this place is full of people I admire and respect and like, and getting an interested or positive reaction is a big deal. I would take part here anyway, because I enjoy just joining in the talk, and reading what others say, but it does my ego a lot of good at times too. I think the making of friends is part of it too - the peacock tail thing, displaying your intelligence or talent or whatever as a way of attracting mates in both senses of the word. (Only one sense on ILE so far, sadly!)

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 28 October 2002 22:48 (twenty-three years ago)

A large part of the way I post on ILX is a defense mechanism; if I spend 95% of the time posting infantile one-liners, the times I am serious will look a lot more profound. That's the theory, anyway.

Also, I love infantile one-liners.

Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 28 October 2002 22:57 (twenty-three years ago)

I've got tons of songs on tapes and CDs that I've recorded that I don't really intend to make anyone listen to. Occasionally I listen to them to see what kind of music I made, and I think that some people would like this if I played it for them. If someone asks me to hear something I made I will play it for them. I would have to agree with Ned that it's self-amusement and it's also practice at making music. So, I'm guessing that I make music (painting, writing, or anything creative) for the experience and not for other people, but when I play in a band the best part is playing live and the more people in the audience the better. So, In that context it's for other people. (well, actually it's more for the experience, fun, and practice I get at being on stange)

A Nairn (moretap), Monday, 28 October 2002 23:20 (twenty-three years ago)

I tried to answer this question recently but had a lot of trouble coming up with a clear answer, so I don't think I can push what I say below. but.

often I write because I need to to think things through, to be able to feel as if I understand them. similarly, there are other times when I write just to make explicit to myself things that I think, or to leave myself hard-to-ignore reminders of things I think are important.

I also have a very strong hope that my writing benefit others. this hope seems to be in constant tension with the tendency I seem to have acquired or been born with (even when I was publishing a fanzine in junior high school, I wrote argumentative editorials about e.g. why disney movies were bad) to try to be right. the things that I hope benefit others have a lot to do with my NOT being right about lots of things, and not trying to be right when it's not a matter of being right or not. doing that part well when I think lots of things that are in disagreement with the way lots of people think is very difficult for me sometimes, and the difficulty can obscure my goal of benefitting people. if none of this makes sense, that's probably because I'm very conflicted and don't know how to explain my attitude.

because of those goals, I much prefer a certain kind of feedback over others. when someone tells me that something I wrote made them think or question their habitual ways of thinking, or that it made them better understand or appreciate something, then I'm very happy. hearing from people who just say that I'm a good writer or that I'm smart feels nice to some extent, but with that sort of feedback I don't feel as if I learn much about whether I benefitted the reader. this is probably because I feel plenty secure about myself with respect to the latter kind of response, but I have many more doubts about the former.

Josh (Josh), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 04:52 (twenty-three years ago)

I want to add that writing, painting, performing, or anything creative is kind of like releasing this energy from me that if I didn't do these things it would build up and drive me crazy. I don't know if anyone else knows what I'm talking about, maybe they could try to explain it better.

A Nairn (moretap), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 05:41 (twenty-three years ago)

i first and foremost make music to please myself, and because i feel compelled too, cos that is one of the few harmless ways i can express myself. i am very insecure about it though. i get hurt if one of my friends doesn't like it. cos thats who i'm trying to make happy and entertain.

di smith (lucylurex), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 07:23 (twenty-three years ago)

I want to add that writing, painting, performing, or anything creative is kind of like releasing this energy from me that if I didn't do these things it would build up and drive me crazy.

Painting releases that energy for me in a big way; I have mild cyclothymia (the mildest bipolar disorder), and painting is what I do to burn off the manic phases so I can get to sleep. Helps with my insomnia, too, which might or might not be related.

Tep (ktepi), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 08:08 (twenty-three years ago)

Part of being a musician for me is always have a centerpiece to my life, there's constant goals/progress/things to do.

The more I think about it, another big part is just that I've gone too far by now to stop, put in far too much time and effort. I simply can't imagine giving it up because it's so ingrained...I suppose I could see being in a situation where I wasn't really playing with any bands, just practicing at home and whatnot, but the important bit of music for me is doing it with other people.

Jordan (Jordan), Tuesday, 29 October 2002 08:28 (twenty-three years ago)

i write songs cos it makes the things i write about come true kinda like a co-creation type thing and i play in front of other people cos i love to show off but weirdly when i play in front of people in a performance type thing i actually pretend at the time that there no one out there and that we are all still playing for fun in the practise room

hellbaby (hellbaby), Wednesday, 30 October 2002 01:52 (twenty-three years ago)

'cause it's my only semi-marketable skill.

unknown or illegal user (doorag), Wednesday, 30 October 2002 01:59 (twenty-three years ago)

Right now, I truly, honestly don't know. Maybe my outlook is really bleak because of sheer exhaustion and frustration, but right now, I am really hitting the brick wall of wondering why I do it, because the rewards that I get, compared to the amount of work, and stress, and pressure, and the late hours and lack of sleep and lifting heavy equipment and never seeing any money is just ...

I know things always look darkest just before the dawn, but right now I am really wondering at what point you should just say "this isn't fun any more" and just jack it in.

kate, Wednesday, 30 October 2002 10:44 (twenty-three years ago)

I've asked myself the same question many times. I think the answer is, only when you know you wouldn't miss it anymore. Right now, I'd miss it more than anything if I jacked it in.

electric sound of jim (electricsound), Wednesday, 30 October 2002 22:01 (twenty-three years ago)

If I’m honest, I derive very little pleasure from JUST writing a piece of poetry.

Hmm. I don't want to sound judgmental, but as soon as I read this I think: hmm. If you write a poem and finish it and read it and you don't burst into tears or are so overwhelmed by it as to laugh, or stutter, or dance then - it's not a poem. Or, rather, your standards are too low. [NOTE: Jerry the Nipper, IGNORE IGNORE IGNORE, esp. for the purposes of this post, haha].

david h (david h), Wednesday, 30 October 2002 22:10 (twenty-three years ago)

Nah...I think writers/musicians/performers are too involved in the technical aspects of creating something, too personally involved to be able to experience emotional effects the same way an audience does.

Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 30 October 2002 22:21 (twenty-three years ago)

A poem = something in itself as soon as you scotch seal it. The writer no longer owns it, emotionally or spiritually (tho' poss. legally). As good a judge as anyone = the writer who lays himself open to the poem as itself rather than the poem as the culmination of technicalities. The poem should blow you away. Only my personal view.

david h (david h), Wednesday, 30 October 2002 22:35 (twenty-three years ago)

Perhaps, David, perhaps. BUT also remember that a poet might finish a poem w/out it being finished - that is, there are still some things in need of clarification, or certain phrases that don't seem to work, or any number of things. Also, if said poet hasn't had enough time away from the work, they might still see the words and the form and the function without seeing the poem (that is, all these things working together to create ... MAGIC!).

David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 31 October 2002 01:08 (twenty-three years ago)

Freud answered this question (in his essay 'Creative Writers and Daydreaming') by saying that writing was a fantasy compensation for real slights and frustrations, and that writers sought 'acclaim, status and the love of women'. (Which, if you're a female writer, means this thread now officially lezzes up.)

Me, I could justify this a thousand ways, or I could turn the question around and say, we all play when we're kids, why on earth would we stop when we grow up? I could also agree with Freud, and I could also say that 'the world is not enough'. Just walking round the streets you get a very shabby idea of how humans relate to one another (some in cars, some in blankets, all hurring off to get somewhere else -- 'a picture of dissatisfaction', as Kafka once said). It's only in books, concert halls, gallery spaces that you really get a glimpse of true human potentiality, and our possible future in a world where art (as compensation) will no longer be necessary and will wither away, because life will be pure play and pure song. (Weeps.)

(Pulls self together). Of course, the 'honkey donkey' look-ma-no-hands element counts for a lot too. Look at me. But this selfish 'look at me' leads, in anybody realistic and generous, to an unselfish 'Oh my God, look at what he just did, that's incredible, and I know, because I've tried it.' Narcissism, in other words, can be the root of admiration. Being a performer also makes you the best audience.

Momus (Momus), Thursday, 31 October 2002 02:20 (twenty-three years ago)

Thanks everyone for your honesty and opinions. I heartily agree with Momus' point about the narcissistic having the potential to be a wonderful audience also. Personally, when I'm moved by or appreciate a piece of art, I can be hugely enthusiastic, expansive and expressive in my efforts to convey my enjoyment to the artist. This is directly related to the pleasure I seek/receive from others who may enjoy my work. It's also sincere, never feigned.

Why I asked the question in the first place, was because I was thinking that perhaps my reasons for writing or performing weren't good enough, that they were too superficial and shallow and that ultimately, in the absence of motivation of any 'real' substance, I would be doomed to failure.

The more I thought about it, the more I realised that this was not necessarily true. Yes, we all write and perform for lots of different reasons, but I believe that like life itself, these reasons are constantly evolving and changing. So it's quite possible that my main attention-seeking focus will level out or be replaced by some other driving force in the future. At the very least, I suspect it will be balanced by a more inward-looking tendency that will help give my work a more well-rounded perspective.

Freya, Saturday, 2 November 2002 11:12 (twenty-three years ago)

I write and perform partially for raison d'etre, but mainly as a symptom of the disease that is being Dickon Edwards. It's always been my ambition to have a new syndrome named after me.

More specifically, I write my diary as a way of Marking Time, to avoid Time Marking Me.

Though I can't deny it helps if I'm getting paid.

Dickon Edwards, Saturday, 2 November 2002 11:29 (twenty-three years ago)

'acclaim, status and the love of women'.

Change that to "acclaim, status and the love of Dirty Rock Boys" and you've got a snapshot of my motivations, har har.

In retrospect, now that I've rested, I realise that it's because I'd have blown my head off years ago if I didn't have this outlet. Unforunately, it's when the outlet that formerly prevented you from blowing your head off BECOMES another pressure that makes you want to blow your head off, then this leads to problems. This used to be my release from stress. Now it IS stress.

kate, Saturday, 2 November 2002 11:42 (twenty-three years ago)

i dont write, but i perform. as doorag said (he may have been joking, but it rings true for me), its my only marketable skill. if not an actor, what can i be? its all i know.
i do get pleasure out of it, and i guess thats a reason to perform. i enjoy the fact that by combining sounds i make with my mouth and movements i make with my body, i can ellict an emotional response from an observer. often, if im lucky, i have an emotional response too.

amy (amy), Saturday, 2 November 2002 18:43 (twenty-three years ago)


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