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Totally classic. Nothing rules more than UNIX culture.

― Jonathan Williams (ex machina), Thursday, 19 December 2002 21:43 (twenty-three years ago)

Except possibly EVERYTHING.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 19 December 2002 21:51 (twenty-three years ago)

UNIX = classic

not so sure about 'UNIX culture' though...

― michael (michael), Thursday, 19 December 2002 22:06 (twenty-three years ago)

perhaps it should read:

being foolish and/or masochistic enough to use a UNIX-based system for personal computing (web browsing/word processing/web design/graphics editing): DUD!

recognizing UNIX-based systems' inherent strengths and using them for what they're good at(servers that run on just about any hardware, are very secure and don't eat system resources): CLASSIC!

― fields of salmon (fieldsofsalmon), Thursday, 19 December 2002 22:30 (twenty-three years ago)

(Dan and michael MIND MELD FEAR THE AWESOME POWER OF THE michDanel!)

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 19 December 2002 22:41 (twenty-three years ago)

I can't say they occupy my mind much except when at work.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Thursday, 19 December 2002 22:43 (twenty-three years ago)

i use Linux at home on my laptop and at work on a desktop with no problems. all the software these days is excellent and there's very little that you can't do. admittedly The GIMP isn't up to PhotoShop standards, and music creation software is behind other OSes, but for day-to-day use they're perfect.

― michael (michael), Thursday, 19 December 2002 22:45 (twenty-three years ago)

Unix security = big fat fucking LIE perpetrated by /. on a regular basis
Unix usability = half-lie, just like everybody else (mac & PC) Unix people like to say 'it does everything I want it to do' while violently slapping that part of their brain that likes to kill things with pixelated swords, cuss in a robot voice, etc.
Unix culture = Total Classic, better than Mac culture because Unix geeks say 'cool' then they say 'Red Hat!?!?!' or 'BSD!?!?!' and immediately start to HATE EACH OTHER. Mac people are all fucking hippies.

― Tom Millar (Millar), Thursday, 19 December 2002 23:14 (twenty-three years ago)

So how about a Mac OS X user then? It's UNIX to me...

― Chris Barrus (xibalba), Friday, 20 December 2002 02:01 (twenty-three years ago)

Traditionally, by "real" operating system standards, unix has always been considered extremely insecure. Secure versions of unix have been made from time to time, but the mainstream versions are usually lacking. (Currently, IRIX and Linux are horrific, while OpenBSD rocks, and Solaris and AIX can be secure with sufficient tweaking.) If you're *really* confortable with a CLI and the unix approach to things, then it's great for everything. Personally, using a Mac or PC feels like I'm trying to relay all of my instructions to the computer via a very small child with a touch of autism. I do not recommend unix to non-tech people though.

― Dave Fischer, Friday, 20 December 2002 02:02 (twenty-three years ago)

LINUX > UNIX

― man, Friday, 20 December 2002 02:03 (twenty-three years ago)

Linux < Unix < BSD

― Dave Fischer, Friday, 20 December 2002 02:05 (twenty-three years ago)

(Linux < Unix < BSD) --> Pigs can fly

― man, Friday, 20 December 2002 02:06 (twenty-three years ago)

Anyone who likes Linux is a mod.

― Dave Fischer, Friday, 20 December 2002 02:14 (twenty-three years ago)

Different flavors of Unix are like different flavors of ice cream. It's not like a particular one is going to be all that healthier than any other. This includes Mac OS X IMHO. Though OS X has a much greater access to more libraries for specific kinds of media functionality, which kind of makes it kick several breeds of ass compared to, say, FreeBSD, unless you're talking about cost, in which case it's all in a name.

― Tom Millar (Millar), Friday, 20 December 2002 02:32 (twenty-three years ago)

You know Mr. Millar I'm really getting tired of your posts which contain a big wad of BS 'knowledge' and have no actual point.

― Tom Millar (Millar), Friday, 20 December 2002 02:33 (twenty-three years ago)

Fuck you, ass.

― Tom Millar (Millar), Friday, 20 December 2002 02:33 (twenty-three years ago)

This is only the ninth time this week, am I right? People might actually like you if you occasionally presented a reasonable argument (and not in the form of a rant by a raging, half-demented deontologist) with real facts and references.

― Tom Millar (Millar), Friday, 20 December 2002 02:35 (twenty-three years ago)

My jokes are funnier than yours.

― Tom Millar (Millar), Friday, 20 December 2002 02:36 (twenty-three years ago)

Mac OS X is obviously a weird special case, but in general yes, lots of different versions of unix are good for lots of different things, and some differences (esp linux -v- BSD) are mostly a matter of taste. (Technical points can be made about linux -v- BSD, but virtually no one actually makes the choice based on them. It's just personal preference.) The commercial unixes (Solaris, AIX, etc) still rule the scene when you get into mainframe-class systems though. (Which is too bad, because I hate them.)

― Dave Fischer, Friday, 20 December 2002 02:38 (twenty-three years ago)

Dave, that's the second time you've called me a mod in so many weeks I do believe!

Also Linux is a kernel, not an operating system. RedHat, Caldera, et al. have given a bad name to "Linux." My Debian boxes are rock solid.

As far as OpenBSD, the comprehensive audit is great but most security holes are found in third party daemons such as Apache, Bind (OpenBSD has an audited Bind4), etc. And have you SEEN all the OpenSSH holes recently? Most of OpenBSD's kernel security features are implemented in Linux or can be via GRsecurity. Linux also supports Posix ACL's (which provides more flexible security) and kernel capabilities.

I trust that a Debian GNU/Linux box with 2 hours of locking down by me to be as secure as OpenBSD out of the box.

Now, I use OpenBSD because the firewalling is implemented in a more managable method and the GENERIC kernel is built with ethernet bridge support.

OpenBSD used to suck before there were regular snapshots of the CURRENT branch to roll your system up to. Still tar updates are a total dud. Dpkg/apt smartly knows what to rm, what to keep and what needs to be reconfigured. Yay.

Also, I really think most of the commercial UNIXes fall far behind the majority of the Free ones in security. (Have you ever seen the rpc crap most Suns have running?)

This is a paper about TCP Sequence number quality across various OSes. Interesting.
http://razor.bindview.com/publish/papers/tcpseq.html

DAVE I AM GOING TO KICK YOUR LIBERTARIAN POT SMOKING GUN SHOOTING OIL DRILLING BSD USING AS NEXT TIME I SEE YOU

(haha, we get into this all the time!)

― Jonathan Williams (ex machina), Friday, 20 December 2002 03:20 (twenty-three years ago)

my incoherant anger was incoherant than i anticipated!

― Jonathan Williams (ex machina), Friday, 20 December 2002 03:23 (twenty-three years ago)

Oh yes, and perl sucks.
Actually, I think the network services interface for unix needs to be completely redesigned, from scratch, in order to move forward significantly on the security front. It needs to be possible to do it right *once*, and not have a single sloppy bit of user-space code be able to bring everything down. There's been a lot of "sandbox" type work being done recently which seems interesting but I haven't tried it yet. I might wind up switching over to netbsd, because it looks like support for Sun SS1000's will happen there sooner, and I *really* want one. I don't smoke pot.

― Dave Fischer, Friday, 20 December 2002 07:23 (twenty-three years ago)

perl sucks

― michael (michael), Friday, 20 December 2002 10:26 (twenty-three years ago)

dan perry totally nailed it in the first post

― geeta (geeta), Friday, 20 December 2002 11:09 (twenty-three years ago)

hey!! Whilst I was writing C on the back of an envelope, Rick said it looked like I was writing perl! Therefore perl is a piece of piss cos I can do it without even thinking! C is GRATE.

― Sarah (starry), Friday, 20 December 2002 11:11 (twenty-three years ago)

fgetchar indeed

― Sarah (starry), Friday, 20 December 2002 11:14 (twenty-three years ago)

u r all gay

― Alan (Alan), Friday, 20 December 2002 11:14 (twenty-three years ago)

Yea, I agree the way that most stuff handles security type stuff is nuts. All the hoops that suid binaries jump through. Linux's capability system is pretty interesting because it gives you classes of operations that a process can run. So a suid process can drop its file i/o capability, network i/o capability, etc and the capability to modify its capabilities. This is a good way of limiting what a buffer overflow could do.

I think I got that all right.

I'm beginning to think perl sucks, I'm running into I/O bottlenecks on some perl stuff. The C version of it is just going to be a lot cleaner and faster.

― Jonathan Williams (ex machina), Friday, 20 December 2002 13:16 (twenty-three years ago)

PERL sucks. UNIX comes with all the sed and AWK goodniess you need.

I don't know about the culture aspect but UNIX is super classic.

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Friday, 20 December 2002 16:18 (twenty-three years ago)

I don't recall sed being able to sql

― Jonathan Williams (ex machina), Friday, 20 December 2002 16:21 (twenty-three years ago)

Perl is awk pumped up into a full language. Bad idea.
As for redesign and security and dropping capabilities - a real microkernel arch does that so much better... I've been waiting on The Hurd for about a decade now... fuckers won't port it to Sun... or finish it... ARG.

― Dave Fischer, Friday, 20 December 2002 16:31 (twenty-three years ago)

The biggest obstacle to HURD right now is the ext2 file system daemon mmap()s the raw disk -- which runs into the 2 gig of addressable memory limit.. they're porting it to use seek() i think or multiple processes or some bat shit

― Jonathan Williams (ex machina), Friday, 20 December 2002 16:35 (twenty-three years ago)

dave, perl has come a long way! perl 6 resolves a lot of the syntax weirdness and puts it on top of its own VM

― Jonathan Williams (ex machina), Friday, 20 December 2002 16:37 (twenty-three years ago)

Probably because sed is an old command and predates the idea of a sql.
Its time for team lunch. mmmm beer.

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Friday, 20 December 2002 16:43 (twenty-three years ago)

sed is the streams version of ed. Why would you put database commands in your text editor?

The biggest obstacle to The Hurd right now for me is the PC thing. I was thinking of trying out ChorusOS, but kinda forgot about it. Hmmmm.

― Dave Fischer, Friday, 20 December 2002 17:23 (twenty-three years ago)

Dave,

have you looked at mosix?

― Jonathan Williams (ex machina), Friday, 20 December 2002 17:37 (twenty-three years ago)

I'm actually moving away from the network-of-workstations model towards more a centralized system now, so clustering isn't something I want to do. (I want an SS1000!!!!)

― Dave Fischer, Friday, 20 December 2002 17:59 (twenty-three years ago)

I want to sell my PC for a laptop since I'm planning on moving within a year.

― Jonathan Williams (ex machina), Friday, 20 December 2002 18:02 (twenty-three years ago)

My racks have wheels. That's portable, right?

― Dave Fischer, Friday, 20 December 2002 19:38 (twenty-three years ago)

http://coed.org/photodb/photo/417-sm.jpg

― Jonathan Williams (ex machina), Friday, 20 December 2002 19:46 (twenty-three years ago)

I feel like I'm at work, reading this stuff.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Friday, 20 December 2002 20:46 (twenty-three years ago)

What Alan said x1000000000

― Graham (graham), Friday, 20 December 2002 22:20 (twenty-three years ago)

"If you have any trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done." - Scott Adams, creator of Dilbert.

― David Allen, Sunday, 22 December 2002 06:53 (twenty-three years ago)

Damn straight. (I thought the original Adams joke refered to BSD users though, not unix users in general?)

― Dave Fischer, Sunday, 22 December 2002 14:37 (twenty-three years ago)

Having been introduced to UNIX buy the back door, Mac OS X, I love it. And surely Mac OS X is the best flavour of UNIX and youget well designed computers to run it on.

― Ed (dali), Monday, 23 December 2002 21:05 (twenty-three years ago)

Mac OS X UNIX crap is pretty poorly thought out making commandline use a hastle for people (as compared with GNU or BSD)

― Jonathan Williams (ex machina), Monday, 23 December 2002 21:16 (twenty-three years ago)

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Being a UNIX user: classic/dud?

DAVE I AM GOING TO KICK YOUR LIBERTARIAN POT SMOKING GUN SHOOTING OIL DRILLING BSD USING AS NEXT TIME I SEE YOU