Drummers

The only musical training I've ever had was a month or two of African and Latin percussion lessons about 10 years ago. I love shoving those rhythms onto a drumset, it makes it sound like I know what the hell I'm doing.

i'm not a very good drummer now, but i've found drumming (or at least a really good understanding of drumming) has made me a better musician in other ways. not only has it made my rhythmic chops better on guitar and bass, i can program the living shit out of a drum machine or sing a drum part that i want my very talented drummer tim to play on the kit.

mitch mitchell dying got me thinking about arguments i used to have with a friend of mine over mitch vs. buddy miles, and the fact you can have that argument and how great they both were (tho i'm still mitch all the way on that one). and then on the mitch r.i.p. thread there was some discussion of the way he (and moon, and that generation) opened up the drums as a rock instrument. and how they were influenced by jazz playing, because jazz drummers opened up the drums first. and all that kind of thing. and then through the '70s and '80s, you had all these guys who even a sort of moderately in touch rock or jazz fan can at least namecheck.

and i'm just curious who are the great drummers now? i know the defining rhythm guys of the last 10-20 years have really been hip-hop and r&b producers, and i love those guys. but on the boring old actual-hit-them-with-something front, i'm just not tuned into who's been doing really adventurous stuff. the people who come to mind are, like, david king and brian chippendale... the boredoms ... ilx's own whiney ... but i don't really know who else. jazz? rock? afropop? any unheralded geniuses out there? or is the era of the genius drummer somwhat past?

(oops i didn't even see this was an ile thread when i revived it. seems like it should be ilm. well, whatever.)

Never mind the great drummers...

I participated in a Samba workshop recently and was really struck by how much fun it is to make music as part of a group using percussion, and how little skill you need individually to make beautiful music together.

yeah mass percussion is a good thing. one thing i like about the boredoms' boadrum stuff is they're kind of reclaiming drum circles from embarrassment.

but i still want to know about great drummers.

I am slowly but steadily replacing myself with a drum machine in my band.

I've remarked on this before but I've noticed that a casual listen to random Myspace friend-requesting unsigned metal or alt rock (NOT indie, obviously) bands reveals very high technical standards of drumming - much higher, in fact, than that heard in pretty well-known bands in the 1960s and '70s. Obviously there were people that stood out in that era but there were an awful lot of drummers who sound quite average by today's standards of technical proficiency.

I think, though, that the concept is redundant. Nobody cares any more. The drum machine and computer sequencer are so ubiquitous that actual drumming is just a niche. Musicians and engineers and others in that world may have an opinion but the wider world doesn't care. The 'is Ginger Baker the best, or is it Billy Cobham?' 1970s type debate is of no interest to the majority of people any more.

Clicktracks, loops, and identikit drum sounds killed interest in drummers. The last indie / rock / alternative drummer I can think of who made me go "wow" was the Dismemberment Plan guy; that's a LONG time ago now. My favourite current drummer is Sebastian Rochford of Polar Bear and Acoustic Ladyland, but he's (ostensibly) a jazz drummer, so it doesn't really count. Matt Tong from Bloc Party was exciting for 45 minutes at the start of 2005.

I'd suggest bassists have gone the same way, too.

I think, though, that the concept is redundant. Nobody cares any more. The drum machine and computer sequencer are so ubiquitous that actual drumming is just a niche. Musicians and engineers and others in that world may have an opinion but the wider world doesn't care. The 'is Ginger Baker the best, or is it Billy Cobham?' 1970s type debate is of no interest to the majority of people any more.

But this is true for musicians other than drummers too, yes?

Exactly; who would care whether Coldplay or Snow Patrol have the better guitarist; neither of them do anything interesting or impressive at any stage.

and i'm just curious who are the great drummers now?

That guy from Battles is pretty entertaining - I have no idea at all if what he is doing is good or not, but heck it works for me.

I suspect the right answer here though is Dave Lombardo.

But this is true for musicians other than drummers too, yes?

Yes, I suppose, but probably more so for drummers. The guitar or keyboard hasn't been outright replaced in everyday music production in quite the same way, but I guess computer sequencing has taken over from unquantized playing for a large swathe of current music. What's confusing is that in certain genres (metal and rock) the standard seems to have improved, at least on a technical level.

Dale Crover. End of thread. Bonham and Moon did not live long enough to get as good as Dale Crover is now.

drum geek sick chops youtube thread from IMM...

Drum geek sick chops youtube thread

great way to waste an evening.

chris corsano and alex neilson doing really great things with improv stuff. dave king from the bad plus sounds like he's having FUN all the time, amazing to see him play. joey baron as well, there's a youtube of him with john zorn which is really fantastic.

been really feeling karriem riggins and chris 'daddy' dave especially when they both just stay in the pocket and groove along.

I think people in certain genres (metal, jazz) still focus a lot on individual *musicianship*, including for drummers.It's probably true that you don't have the same overall public level of interest in John Bonham vs. Keith Moon kinds of debates. I'm sure there are still a lot of kids who know who the drummers of their favorite bands are, but I don't think drummers are as capable of celebrity as they used to be. There's also a certain indie contingent that still gets into drummer-worship (people who like Don Cab, Hella, Lightning Bolt, Deerhoof, etc.).

there's a whole lotta RONG on this thread

The drum machine and computer sequencer are so ubiquitous that actual drumming is just a niche.

time-travel post from 1986

Clicktracks, loops, and identikit drum sounds killed interest in drummers. The last indie / rock / alternative drummer I can think of who made me go "wow" was the Dismemberment Plan guy; that's a LONG time ago now. My favourite current drummer is Sebastian Rochford of Polar Bear and Acoustic Ladyland, but he's (ostensibly) a jazz drummer, so it doesn't really count. Matt Tong from Bloc Party was exciting for 45 minutes at the start of 2005.

I'd suggest bassists have gone the same way, too.

― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, November 14, 2008 4:58 AM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

way to project your boring music tastes on everyone

i've been playing guitar for 15+ years at this point but i get more excited about great drummers and drumming than great guitar-playing. maybe because i don't really understand it as much?

Name names then!

time-travel post from 1986

How is that a 'time travel post'? A very large proportion of modern music does not use live drumming. And a lot of the small amount which does use live drumming relies on looping and copying of small sections, plus editing to correct mistakes (which is partly what I meant by 'computer sequencing', not just programming a beat on a computer). Admittedly that change began to happen in the 1980s but it has intensified since then.

A very large proportion of modern music does not use live drumming.

this is not true

it's a time travel post in that people have been saying the exact same thing for 20 years without it ever being true

What? Hip Hop, R&B, dance music and chart pop is virtually ALL done without live drumming.

you really need me to spell this out for you? you are obviously coming at this from a western-centric (i'm going to guess british), popular-music-centric perspective. it's very myopic and very wrong to say that because a large proportion of the music that you and your peers listen to uses programmed beats that "a very large proportion of modern music does not use live drumming."

what about modern music in south america? africa? asia? what about jazz? rock? funk? country?

Name names then!

― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, November 14, 2008 8:15 AM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

off the top of my head, i thought the drumming on the national album from last year was pretty amazing - not flashy but he does lots of interesting little things.

Yes, it's true I'm coming from a western popular music perspective. But you will find a lot of other music uses programmed beats now.

OK, subvert the argument to your point by yanking it out of its unwritten context. The discussion starts with Mitch Mitchell. And Asia, jazz, and rock all get mentioned.

pat mahoney!

but again, i'm not a drummer so i don't really know what's "technically great" in drumming, just stuff that sticks out when i listen to it

jerry fuchs! nick atocha!

The National have never struck me as anything but boring.

cool! great opinion!

OK, subvert the argument to your point by yanking it out of its unwritten context. The discussion starts with Mitch Mitchell. And Asia, jazz, and rock all get mentioned.

― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, November 14, 2008 8:32 AM (22 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this was just in response to dubmill saying "A very large proportion of modern music does not use live drumming"

I'd argue that using a click track yanks you out of the realm of live drumming.

that's completely retarded

i don't know why i fucking bother

No, we don't either

You're getting a little dramatic about this, Nick.

i just feel too much

click track=metronome, which has been around for ages

Haha possibly now we need to have a long conversation about Ringo's drumming on Beatles pop songs versus "looser" more blues-based Beatles songs...

any excuse to mention the killers i guess

i wanna hold yr hand vs. yer blues

cutty, i thought of you last night when i went to a Subtle show even though in my head i was thinking of Why?. i mixed them up and it turns out Subtle is kind of annoying.

I'm somewhat surprised that few poppy indie bands shoot for that loose-and-live thing.

this makes me think of the contrived bits of that one recent Spoon album, where they leave (or splice) in bits of studio conversation, dropping sticks at the end of a song, etc. to manufacture that sense of looseness.

what about Weezer...? I kinda hate them and don't know their catalog well enough to judge though.

why?'s usage of drums is pretty amazing in their live show

the only thing i can say about weezer is that their drummer is from the less is more school. he's got impeccable taste and technique in his fills and trills, etc, but comes across as pretty straightforward...

yeah, i wanted to see singing drummers and everyone playing aux perc and vibes. and one dude in subtle is pretty amazing on the mpc, but that's about it.

This is going back a second, but can you guys think of any pop/rock bands -- with an emphasis on the pop -- who go far off the grid and the steady backbeat, stretch tempos around, and do lots of loose interplay?

All Who songs from 1964-1969.

hey, remember the drumming on the first Burning Airlines record? that shit was killing. definitely drummer's drummer type stuff, but the parts were worked out pretty meticulously and really elevated the songs.

I haven't listened to much recent Weezer, but their whole core as a band early on was this perfectly gridded 8th-note dun-dun-dun-dun thing, and that really suited them, so ...

Why? is really great with rhythm in general -- those last two albums are seriously favorites of mine. And yeah, Spoon always gets talked about as if they're all loose and rangy, but the underlying beat is always steady as hell!

chris "daddy" dave - has played with kenny garrett, is in erykah badu's band now. he hasn't really made a statement on record yet (that i know of), but he's really the guy in terms of ability, new ideas, and tying together jazz + gospel chops + dilla/hip-hop.

I think one of the more interesting and mostly slept-on developments in drumming in the last decade or two has been the way live drummers have picked up on feels that were originally developed on or made possible by drum machines and samplers. I think people like Dilla, DJ Shadow, Timbaland, The Neptunes, etc. have had a big influence on live drummers. Chris Dave and also Kariem Riggins are two good examples, although neither is really associated with a blockbuster band.

I guess maybe Qwestlove would be the highest profile drummer of this kind?

i think another aspect of this topic is how antiquated the instrument is itself. there has been no innovation in the live drum set itself for a long time. the hardware, the skins, the cymbals--it's all very early 20th century still.

there's really been a lot of evolution, just maybe not in as obvious a way as, say, the shift from acoustic to amplified guitar, bass and keys. the way people play drums now is a lot different from the way they were played in the pre-electric era. early jazz playing had to emphasize a heavy beat because that's all you could really hear of it. amplification opened up the possibilities of the drumset. and the kind of hardware that's evolved to take advantage of that is voluminous and kind of mind-blowing. as a hack drummer who's never had more than your basic kick-snare-toms set-up (ok, i did have rototoms for a while), i find the percussion section of your average drum store pretty intimidating. there's so much stuff. and sure, when i saw buddy rich he just had a totally stripped down set, so it's not like you need all the doodads. but somebody like stewart copeland shows the almost orchestral range a good drummer can get out of a massively stocked kit.

all stewart copeland needs is a fricken hi hat and garbage can

it's all he needs, but he can do more things when he has more things to do them on.

(reminds me a little of when i interviewed nels cline, who said he was a purist for years about not using effects. and then he did a session where there were a bunch of different kinds of pedals he'd never used before, and he realized there was this whole universe of sound he was ignoring.)

I think one of the more interesting and mostly slept-on developments in drumming in the last decade or two has been the way live drummers have picked up on feels that were originally developed on or made possible by drum machines and samplers.
Yeah, even in a jazz context this is being done, by people like Marcus Gilmore and Johnathan Blake, for example. And then there is Jo Jo Mayer, who plays like Buddy Rich and a drum machine rolled into one.

Ha, I found a funny quote about Jo Jo Mayer here

I think one of the more interesting and mostly slept-on developments in drumming in the last decade or two has been the way live drummers have picked up on feels that were originally developed on or made possible by drum machines and samplers

totally agreed. and i think it's becoming way more common (and less gimmicky), drummers dealing with that stuff because that's what they listen to. goes both ways too, w/karriem riggins doing tracks for erykah badu and all that.

i highly recommend jojo mayer's dvd!

Secret Weapons For The Modern Drummer? I saw him in the audience once at a Dafnis Prieto show- he was checking out the competition.

karriem:

(i really like that dvd too)

(and jazz dayz: )

whoa this thread

The last time I was in a Guitar Center I marveled at a kit with a bass drum that had a smaller (~8in?) drum attached to the front head. I didn't play the kit or ask what it was, and I can't find anything on the in but if it's not innovating, it was at least completely new to me at that time. I can't finda pic on GC's site. Anyone seen something like that before?

I think backing up Jimi Hendrix is a big part of why people are high on Mitch Mitchell. I mean, playing with someone like that would make anyone better. I like his playing a lot.

This thread has also made me feel totally lazy wrt practicing and playing in general... I need to find new people to play with :(

Oh and playing to a click is no big deal, though I used to be of the opinion that it was soulless and all that in my younger and stupider days. I found it useful in recording, especially piecemeal projects where it wasn't always possible to have people in the same rooms at the same time. I can imagine it being useful in high-pressure live situations as well. For the process of creating music, however, it can be stifling.

it's a sub (middle of the page here), i've seen them but no idea if it does any good.

Oh, OK. It was a lot smaller diameter though, smaller than a piccolo snare, and not as deep. Probably just a different version of the same thing.

I've always kind of wanted a cocktail kit.

i wish i still had any kit at all. had to leave it behind when we moved to ny. i get the jones out a little with my acoustic guitar (which i'm even waaaay more limited on than i am on drums), but it's not as gratifying.

been thinking about getting a cajon drum, just for the hell of it. it can double as a stool, so it's easier to justify the space consumption.

http://img3.musiciansfriend.com/dbase/pics/products/regular/9/6/4/371964.jpg

those kerriam riggins videos are great. especially the first one because of how much he's willing to violate the beat, but still maintains it or at least the idea of it.

also i forgot to mention jim white -- who i like with the dirty three, but maybe even more with nina natasia because he's finding openings in a place (sensitive singer-songerwriter genre) that they aren't immediately obvious. gotta wait til about the 90-second mark here, but it gets interesting:

nina nastasia, that is...

I'm a drummer. And I'm surprised we've gotten this far without discussing the innovations in drumming in the last 20 or 30 years that have been brought on by extreme metal. Someone like Pete "Commando" Sandoval from Morbid Angel is doing stuff that nobody even dreamed of before he did it.

And if you think that stuff is too metric and soulless (though obviously FULL of time changes and complexity), then listen to what Clive Burr did on Iron Maiden "Killers" or Simon Phillips on Judas Priest's "Sin After Sin" or anything Dirge Rep played on in Enslaved.

There are a lot of people pushing rock to new dynamic places that are being ignored because of the genre of music they play.

And Igor Cavalera from Sepultura, has brought in tons of different native Brazilian styles and instruments and guests literally from the rain forest.

There are so many more I could list.

I am a drummer on the video game Rock Band

i forgot about jim white, he's kind of the definition of an awesome but "loose" drummer. just look at how floppy he is

also he reminds me a little of ILX's own Eazy, who does not play the drums

Jesse, you should go see Francisco Mela play with Joe Lovano this weekend, with Esperanza Spaulding on bass. I know I should.

the innovations in drumming in the last 20 or 30 years that have been brought on by extreme metal.

totally true. not my personal favorite style, but it can be pretty amazing.

xpost:

i'd love to. but of course i won't. (i've still never even seen paul motian, and i keep saying i'm going to before he dies or quits or something.)

totally true. not my personal favorite style, but it can be pretty amazing.

Anyway, going back to the original post, now that we've all heard at least some jazz, some metal, some reggae and __fill in xhuxk0r/stencil list of overlooked genres here__ it's pretty hard to imagine the days when the most adventurous think you heard on the radio was Hal Blaine playing some quarter note triplets going into the chorus of a Ronettes song. Which of course is one of my favorite drum sounds of all, just saying.

My favorite drum solo is still Ringo on Abbey Road. He gets it.

I can't find the thread where people were disputing the notion that drumming was a good workout, so here:

Want a great workout? Try drums

(I know it's hard to believe that people on the internet would make bold counter-claims based solely on anecdotal evidence, but trust me on this)

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/10/3/1286116742572/19th-Commonwealth-Games---004.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItZyaOlrb7E&feature=player_embedded#!

nice hair you lead singing dicklick

I'd argue that using a click track yanks you out of the realm of live drumming.

― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, 14 November 2008 14:35 (2 years ago)

omg wtf

I'd argue that using a click track yanks you out of the realm of live drumming.

― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, 14 November 2008 14:35 (2 years ago)