Chicago nightclub tragedy

Message Bookmarked

Bookmark Removed

Anyone want to talk about this? It kept me up last night, thinking about how terribly sad it is. All I see on tv are lawyers...I want to hear from the people who were there.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 15:51 (twenty-three years ago)

For those who don't know . The blizzard out east sort of bumped this from the headlines.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 15:52 (twenty-three years ago)

It's actually been getting a lot of coverage on the BBC site. There are some comments from folks who were there at the bottom of this report.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 15:54 (twenty-three years ago)

(yes, this was on the main uk news: the us blizzards haven't been)

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 15:55 (twenty-three years ago)

(Both made the German news.)

Is it clear exactly WHO used the pepper spray?

― Colin Meeder (Mert), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 15:56 (twenty-three years ago)

yes I was cursing my Boston colleague for not replying to my email, blissfully unaware that he was probably stuck in his house with no electricity.

― MarkH (MarkH), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 15:57 (twenty-three years ago)

What's to say? It's awful. And it seems a rather clear-cut case of a club violating the relevant codes. I suppose this means greater enforcement from here on out.

I think it was a security guard who used the mace. Why would he spray mace in a closed environment like that? Especially since according to reports there were only two women involved in the fight he was trying to break up.

― Amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 15:58 (twenty-three years ago)

You beat me to it... I was gonna say...

Totally unnecessary tragedy seeing as how they were told to shut down the club a month ago by the fire inspectors. Overcrowded, and the doors opened in. Really quite sad.

― Aaron W (Aaron W), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 15:59 (twenty-three years ago)

Witnesses say that there was a fight, and that the DJ ordered security to "mace them". The club had about 10 of its own security people, who don't carry mace, but then another security firm was hired, and those were the people who carried mace.

Most of the coverage here is about who is at fault. The owners are blaming the city, and the city is blaming the owners. There is a dispute about whether the club was operating illegally - there are documents from last year that indicate that the city wanted it shut.

Also, the owners are friends of Jesse Jackson, which is a big controversy. Jackson was quoted as saying that the owners are victims along with the people who died, which pissed some people off.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 16:02 (twenty-three years ago)

Not to take away from the responsibility of the owners and security, but I do think that something needs to be done about Chicago's ridiculous licensing and zoning policies, which played a role in the club being overcrowded in the first place.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 16:05 (twenty-three years ago)

Jackson is, among other (better) things, an opportunistic creep. Is there any tragedy involving black Chicagoans from which he can stay away?

― Amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 16:06 (twenty-three years ago)

Should Rev Jackson get involved when he has personal ties to the club owner?

― oops (Oops), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 16:15 (twenty-three years ago)

don't know if he could have stayed away from this one since attempts to shut the club down before had become a tussle between city and some black leaders who felt it was racially motivated. due to Jesse's friendship with family of club owner he'd already been involved.

to be fair, what he said was that as this happened in the middle of his comunity he was friends with the owners, with the victims, with city officials involved etc. NOT that the club owners were victims themselves. (i think this was also while he was calling for an independent investigation)

― H (Heruy), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 16:18 (twenty-three years ago)

Should Rev Jackson get involved when he has personal ties to the club owner?

Only if he does the rumpshaker.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 16:19 (twenty-three years ago)

No, he said both things, if the Tribune from 2/18 is right : "Jackson suggested the club's owners deserved sympathy as well. 'The
owners are victims. And, of course, the dead are victims,' Jackson
said."

― Kerry (dymaxia), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 16:42 (twenty-three years ago)

this is a sad thing, but somehow (and I hate to say it) not surprising in a city as corrupt as Chicago.

― hstencil, Wednesday, 19 February 2003 16:45 (twenty-three years ago)

No, I think this thing can be attributed to everything that is wrong with Chicago. *Everything*.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 16:46 (twenty-three years ago)

Everything? Hmm, I'd bet that this can't be attributed to ex-girlfriends of mine that live there, as one example of something "wrong" with Chicago...

Okay, maybe humor should be off.

― hstencil, Wednesday, 19 February 2003 16:59 (twenty-three years ago)

On the radio this morning, it was stated that the second floor is often used for fundraisers for South Side polititians.

I think that the city might have wanted the code violations fixed, but never really had the intention of closing the doors due to the political connections of the owners. Had the CFD actually padlocked the doors, there would have been severe noise from South Side politicos that the closing was somehow race-related. The city wanted any code violations fixed quietly, and was trying to use the court order to force a recalcitrant owner.

Now that this tragedy has occurred, it’s like a light on cockroaches; everybody’s scurrying to try to avoid the shared blame.

― No One (SiggyBaby), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 17:03 (twenty-three years ago)

there would have been severe noise from South Side politicos that the closing was somehow race-related

Why do I suspect many of the same people who would have made this noise are now the ones who are going to be beating their chests blaming the city for not caring about black nightclub patrons?

― Amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 17:04 (twenty-three years ago)

It’s easy to spot who shares the blame— look for any politico who’s ‘outraged,’ from Jesse to James Joyce (Chicago Fire Departmen Chief, not the author. Yes, that’s really his name.).

― No One (SiggyBaby), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 17:07 (twenty-three years ago)

How has Richie Daley weighed in on this? I'm sure he's been preoccupied, what with his mom dying and all...

― hstencil, Wednesday, 19 February 2003 17:08 (twenty-three years ago)

He's saying that the city needs to get to the bottom of all of this, yadda yadda. On the plus side, he did call for a moment of silence on Sunday on behalf of the victims, and church bells are going to ring, etc.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 17:13 (twenty-three years ago)

"outrage" - no doubt this includes the ambulance chaser lawyers.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 17:14 (twenty-three years ago)

We need more politicians who can say whatever they want because of mob ties

― oops (Oops), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 17:15 (twenty-three years ago)

The Ambulance chasers will have to be looking for a payday from the City— the club’s insurance policy won’t be paying because the court-ordered closing and subsequent illegal use neatly violates any policy. So no attorney would touch a suit against the club.

The only possible payoff would have to come from a quick settlement from the city due to lack of enforcement of the court order. But then, an attorney will have to show a pattern of complete enforcement of similar court-orders— not likely in Chicago.

― No One (SiggyBaby), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 17:21 (twenty-three years ago)

We need more politicians who can say whatever they want because of mob ties

1. I thought we were already at saturation.
2. I love listening to da Mayor’s press conferences.

― No One (SiggyBaby), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 17:22 (twenty-three years ago)

Yes, da Mare is very entertaining - I wish I listened to him more often. My favorite one was when he was going after the greasy spoons and sandwich joints for health violations. He said something like, "you don't wanna bite into a sandwich and find dere's a rat in it".

― Kerry (dymaxia), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 17:29 (twenty-three years ago)

I actually think Daley's fairly intelligent, and as important, he's a good listener. So everyone I know who's met him says. I've never sensed his grammatical lapses, stammering, and Chicago-isms are the manifestation of some deep-seated stupidity a la our president.

― Amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 17:36 (twenty-three years ago)

Same here— I think that Daley means to be entertaining, whereas B2...

― No One (SiggyBaby), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 17:39 (twenty-three years ago)

No, I agree - he's much smarter than his soundbites would indicate. But I still find them hilarious. I do have a soft spot for the guy, in spite of the many problems I have with him.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 17:40 (twenty-three years ago)

I also realize that every time I say "I'm going to the liberry" or "you guyses" I lose the ability to make fun of Richie Daley.

― Amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 17:45 (twenty-three years ago)

Well, he's better than his dad, which is more than I can say for Dubya.

― hstencil, Wednesday, 19 February 2003 17:47 (twenty-three years ago)

Is there another politician who everybody knows is corrupt but are okay with that? (i mean besides his father) It's like we've accepted the fact that our politicians are gonna be corrupt and just want a cool, funny, ass-kicking guy to do our dirty work.

(Amateurist: Hey, how ya doin' dere?)

― oops (Oops), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 17:48 (twenty-three years ago)

How are you all so convinced that Daley II is corrupt? (NB: I have not paid much attention to local politics since 1995.)

― Amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 17:49 (twenty-three years ago)

uh, the fact that he runs virtually unopposed? Also his pals' sweetheart O'Hare concessions deals?

― hstencil, Wednesday, 19 February 2003 17:51 (twenty-three years ago)

Actually I think I'm proof of Oops's contention that a little corruption is par for the course, since I didn't even think of those things as evidence of corruption. I was thinking more like Boss Tweed/Daley I corruption.

― Amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 17:53 (twenty-three years ago)

Well, I know some people who worked for an alderman that was not in Daley's camp, and they told me some stories...there's still a machine, but people deny it. Some of Daley's people out there working in the wards are kinda disgusting, in my personal experience.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 17:55 (twenty-three years ago)

Also, he says whatever he wants, even if it criticizes his own party. A person would almost have to have connections outside of politics in order to talk shit about politicians and parties and still be powerful.

― oops (Oops), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 17:56 (twenty-three years ago)

Perhaps his stint as Cook County Attorney would qualify? Specifically, non-investigation of alleged police torture (since settled).

― hstencil, Wednesday, 19 February 2003 17:58 (twenty-three years ago)

How are you all so convinced that Daley II is corrupt?
(sounds of uproarious laughter) I’m afraid dat I can’t answer dat one on da grounds dat I’m not obliged to, if yous get my drift on dat.

― No One (SiggyBaby), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 18:22 (twenty-three years ago)

Point being nobody gives a shit as long as the trains run (somewhat) on time--even on the South Side during a blizzard, the streets are plowed, and Lake Shore Drive has cool Art Deco lamps.

― oops (Oops), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 18:25 (twenty-three years ago)

And the parks are nice. I’ve lived in a number of places in the country, and it’s very nice to be home.

Strangely, when I talk to collegues about the joys of living in Chicago, I speak almost fondly of the corruption here. I laugh about 140% voter turnout and shrug my shoulders at parking shakedowns on the rare occassions I drive in the Loop. And just as strangely, I think this sentiment is common.

― No One (SiggyBaby), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 18:31 (twenty-three years ago)

I've just sort of presumed all large cities have similar institutional corruption.

― Amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 18:33 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeah, I think most of us Chicagoans find some perverse joy in suffering, whether it's because of the weather or corruption or traffic or heat (yes, it gets uncomfortably hot here--the worst of both worlds).

Amateurist, I assumed so as well, but Chicagoans seem almost ambivalent about it. We accept it as a fact of life and just hope we don't get screwed too bad.

― oops (Oops), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 18:38 (twenty-three years ago)

I think that other places just hide it better. Here, it seems that it’s denied with a wink, and nobody (other than John Kaas) wants to dig further for fear of digging up his own bones.

― No One (SiggyBaby), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 18:39 (twenty-three years ago)

philly used to be like that, a sort of twisted pride in how fucked up shit could get

― H (Heruy), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 18:40 (twenty-three years ago)

Is that why it took you so long to get rid of The Vet?

― No One (SiggyBaby), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 18:46 (twenty-three years ago)

'used to be'?

― maura (maura), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 18:47 (twenty-three years ago)

I think you're not seeing the forest for the trees. Yes, we have the highest murder rate, cold-related deaths rate, heat-related deaths rate, and endemic corruption, but we have cow statues everywhere.

― Amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 18:49 (twenty-three years ago)

maura - don't live there anymore (or in years) so can't state authoritatively how things are

― H (Heruy), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 18:51 (twenty-three years ago)

and Michael Jordan loves us, not you. Nyah nyah na na nyah!

(highest cold and heat related deaths? now that's something. i think only inner mongolia has a shot at that title)

― oops (Oops), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 18:52 (twenty-three years ago)

I live about three blocks away from Epitome. I heard all the sirens etc. Sunday night / Monday morning and got seriously freaked out. There's a fire station not too far away, so you hear it all the time, but this was way more than normal. It sounded like they were travelling north to the loop so I kept nervously switching on CNN and the local stations wondering what the heck was going on.

Anyway, I'm not so sure I blame the security guards for using the spray. The reports were one of the combatants had a weapon so it's best to end the fracas as quickly as possible. I mean, if one of them pulls a gun, it's just going to cause the same type of stampede anyway. And while I don't buy the "victimization" of the owners, the issue is with non-enforcement of the court orders. Which, yes, is unsurprising around here.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 18:58 (twenty-three years ago)

i read a report that when pepper spray was used someone yelled "terror attack, poision gas" and that this was what started the stampede. has this been been verified or debunked?

― H (Heruy), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 19:03 (twenty-three years ago)

Newsflash! Johnny Cochrane is now representing seven of the families of victims.

― No One (SiggyBaby), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 19:05 (twenty-three years ago)

read a report that when pepper spray was used someone yelled "terror attack, poision gas" and that this was what started the stampede. has this been been verified or debunked?

Who can say? What difference does it make? It doesn't take much to start a stampede.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 19:13 (twenty-three years ago)

I’m afraid dat I can’t answer dat one on da grounds dat I’m not obliged to, if yous get my drift on dat.

Is your mayor actually Clyde from the Ant Hill Mob?

― SittingPretty (sittingpretty), Thursday, 20 February 2003 09:03 (twenty-three years ago)

Ok, so I just listened to "The Tavis Smiley" show (*hits head with hammer*) and they just had Johnnie Cochran and alderman Carruthers on about this. Apparently Johnnie is going to represent 7 of the families against the owners? The guy is a piece of work.

It was funny, Smiley asked Carruthers something like "Now this just something I read - this is not my opinion mind you - that the owner of the nightclub, MAY - or is rumored to have had - some important political connections". Followed by the usual fumbling and denial. Then he asks Cochran whether he thinks representing these families against the club might put not put him afoul of important members of the Chicago black community. Good god.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 20 February 2003 20:28 (twenty-three years ago)

Tavis Smiley has this great affect of always sounding like he's just been Totally Enlightened by whatever his guest has just had to say, no matter how commonplace or nonsensical. But no matter. "Tavis Smiley" is the best name for a radio show host ever.

― Amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 20 February 2003 20:35 (twenty-three years ago)

I miss "Talk of the Nation." :-(

(But really, I don't listen to NPR. Honest. I swear)

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 20 February 2003 20:37 (twenty-three years ago)

Those people are in good hands with Cochrane. Apparently ambulance chasers were showing up at the morgue and offering to pay for funeral costs in exchange for representation. There was a big story about it in today's Sun-Times.

Lots of interesting discussion in other forums - people comparing notes regarding their experiences with overcrowded clubs, no one knowing where the emergency / fire exits, etc.

100 years ago, there was a massive theater fire in which 600 people died (because they were trapped). After that, the theaters were well-equipped to handle mass exits. Now all of those theaters are torn down. It's a shame - they would have made cool nightclubs and this might not have happened.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Thursday, 20 February 2003 21:29 (twenty-three years ago)

oops I spelled his name wrong. -e

― Kerry (dymaxia), Thursday, 20 February 2003 21:30 (twenty-three years ago)

That's a good idea for the Uptown!

― Amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 20 February 2003 21:31 (twenty-three years ago)

Those people are in good hands with Cochrane.

Depends on how well the Chewbacca legal procedure works this time.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 20 February 2003 21:33 (twenty-three years ago)

In response to this event and the fire in Rhode Island Chicago has sent inspectors around to all the city's nightclubs. Apparently one on North Halsted was shut down, but the big North Side clubs--the Aragon, the Metro, the Park West--had no citations whatsoever.

Here's an angry article on the role of civil rights' leaders (Jesse Jackson et al) in this mess.

― Amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 27 February 2003 16:56 (twenty-three years ago)

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.