self-esteem?

Pull yourself together and stop cowering in the corner.

I don't think my self-esteem is that low. I get down on myself sometimes, mostly about my weight or the fact that I can't "do it all" (ie: I'm not a f-in rockstar and my house isn't perfectly clean). But I think over all I'm too egocentric to have a low self-esteem. Plus, I've got a family and bf that love me and don't put me down.

I think having low self-esteem can be a psychological condition. Think of the battered housewife. She is abused by her husband and ends up feeling as though she is not good enough. She thinks if she were a good enough person, she wouldn't be continually punished. (Please note, I have no experience with this, I'm just talking out of the side of my head or whatever the expression is, you know - making conversation).

I don't feel at my worst lately. I don't seriously think about suicide much. (There have been periods when I have pretty much all the time.) I honestly don't have very much to be happy about, though -- the times I feel sort of okay, I'm basically ignoring that fact as best I can. If good stuff was happening at all, I guess I'd be eager to shout about it a bit.

Some of this is *my* fault. A lot of it isn't. I am at fault in not coping with it more effectively, I think. I really shouldn't be saying any of this at all... I'm failing to follow the sage-like wisdom that if you want people to (at least) think you're okay, you need to pretend to be cheerful/witty/interesting/etc. I do try that sometimes, but it just doesn't seem to work.

I'm sure being miserable a certain amount of the time *is* a put-off to people, though. But it's a vicious circle, really. You're miserable because you have no money, no social life, but being miserable about it makes you more repellant and less motivated to get out of the rut. (Really. It does.)

If you were to ask me if anything actually *good* had happened to me in the last week, say, or even month, my honest answer would be nothing. I could say I read a book or two I enjoyed, but if that's as good as it gets, you're in big trouble, I think...

I did have a particularly bastard-faced, lousy day today, BTW. So I'm especially fed up. And the way my life is, there's almost nothing that constitutes a release or break for me. Venting on here doesn't help much and probably alienates most people... or so I believe...

I do remember so well why I had a drink problem.

In fact, I got so sick of the patrnosing trash I literally walked out of the place. But I've got to go again on Wednesday.

Otherwise I agree with ed, focus on what you can control, make small pleasures for yourself etc. Looking for jobs is horrible, I guess cos you can control some things (how you present yourself) but not others (who else applies, what the employer is looking for) maybe this means enjoying other things is more important.

What sorts of things do you write?

I don't write much at all lately. I've been working on a horror/fantasy novel like forever... I have a ton of unfinished fragments of things... I thought perhaps I could do journalism (I have done a bit, but not much), but I'm afraid I just have a total block regarding convoluting on spec submissions. The long stream of disappointment doesn't provoke much inspiration, though.

But now you've buoyed back up, right Martin?

Um, afraid not, Sarah. I've had some reasons to feel a bit better about my likeability or attractiveness over the time since the marriage ended (obviously I've referenced some of them here), but they count for like one point each, and any negative thing counts for about a hundred points. I have had a great last week (art gallery, 'Adaptation' with pals, a great film at the Japanese Embassy, a successful big presentation at work, a good night out at the FAP, seeing my football team win well (very much needed!), and then yesterday a woman called me 'handsome' - we have a date next weekend) so I'm not at a low ebb at present, but my opinion of myself is still really low.

well no, I'd love to stay at home for a while and read books but I take it you've been in that situation for quite a while.

you see from the replies I'm getting self-esteem is either a 'nicer', maybe media friendly (I'm thinking of oprah type stuff here) name for depression (if i am completely wrong then can someone give me a distiction between the two?) or 'getting a bit low'.

The link is not quite what I'm getting at.

sorry to christine BTW if I got her down.

heh, OK I quickly read through the link. don't get too low.

I'll read it later promise.

(The kinds of courses they do offer: ultra entry-level computer training, care work, etc...)

None of the local newspapers take freelance work. From the horse's mouth. I don't think they even care about writing quality because the material is so banal... they tend to train their journos in-house, sp presumably you start there as office junior or whatever. (Established journalists, of course, might be more welcome.)

Martin -- my journalistic background, such as it is, *is* professional. I have a reference from said editor, but my guess is that doesn't mean much. My editorial/design background, on the other hand, arguably isn't... although I did do three issues for a US publisher. A circulation of 3,000 or so is subject to interpretation. I don't think these credentials count for much, though. I'm so chagrined with the latter as to consider it almost beneath mentioning.

The jobcentre was always mystified by what I was doing (i had to claim income support by declaring my earnings as part time). My advice, for what it's worth, is to forget about regional publications, you'll get little or no joy there, pitch at London and international based publications. Though it is getting harder to get ideas commissioned, which is partly why I pretty much now confine myself to writing only when approached - far too depressing trying to get regular work.

I'm not sure how serious I am about it anymore, because I just don't get ideas much. But that's true even with more creative stuff -- you get so bummed out with not getting anywhere that you find it hard to focus, etc.

The Jobcentre, of course, isn't interested. That's the big point. They don't give a shit *what* you as long as they can push you into something/anything.

When I actually got some part-time freelance work, I had to declare it too. It didn't amount to much and the forms were a pain in the neck. I rather optimistically signed off, struggled for a year, and signed back on again...

Yeah, me too. Shocking isn't it? My thoughts keep drifting back to London, but everytime I've lived there, when it was time to go, I was pretty keen to leave.

It's hard to keep the momentum going with ideas, esp. doing a full time office job, as I do. I set my face against freelancing again, I just found the whole process too painful and depressing. But the urge to write is fighting back now. Perhaps a bit of self-publishing (website/blog) is the way to go.

I like London, but with little money and an elderly widowed mother with angina, I ain't going anywhere for a while. The only real friends I have are in London, which means I seem to have an annual social life.

I've done a blog on and off since December 2000. I keep trashing the archives and starting over. I have to hand-code it because (a) Blogger is pants and (b) stuff like Movable Type wouldn't work on the dumb Web server I have access to. It keeps me off the streets.

hey, maybe the streets are more *fun*, though. :)

Not fair, when I was at my lowest ebb I got offered a job at a Job Centre (prior to that I was a dole cheat, so the irony was not lost on me). However whilst working there I got a pretty good overview, given that I'd been on the other side too. They have a job to do, sadly, they have quotas to fill, you are judged on how many people you get into jobs, no matter how menial, that week. And your job depends on it. By and large everyone I worked with tried hard to care about everyone who came through the doors but simply put dealing with that many people dehumanizes the entire process. There are many deserving cases, there are also an overwhelming number of chancers. Afer a while it becomes hard to tell the difference, but they did try to. I promise. I went into work every morning a well-meaning liberal and left it every night a snarling tory, now I simply serve people drinks and am glad to leave the ambiguity behind. Yep, the structure is shit, but everyone takes it out on the frontline staff forgetting that they are on a shit wage (ten grand basic) dealing with grief which is way and above the money they're earning.

Ever read _Inclusion_ by Will Self? Heh.

Don't let your job be the main thing that defines you.

well, sure. i think i'd found a job that made me feel good, like i was contributing something worthwhile etc etc, and that allowed me to put off developing self-esteem that was unrelated to my work for a little while. tough, though.

found the link that could help you
http://tinyurl.com/r5wahh

fuck you

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0abO4yfxrs&feature=player_embedded

he really does have the answer for everything doesn't he?

duh, he's the tribal leader

Don't let your job be the main thing that defines you.

should have this tattooed on my right fucking hand tbh

why don't u go write a shitty indie song about it

(sorry)

wow I wish you had not made that joke.

Okay, I don't know if that was some lame attempt at a joke, but it's definitely not funny. And sorry? I mean, are you really sorry? Do you regret your words? Then in the future, y'know, think twice before you hit that submit post button.

I wouldn't say that my job defines me, but I get way too invested in it. Because it's so tied to your (financial) situation. I try to calm down by thinking life is fickle (?) for everyone.

I have pretty low self-esteem but I fuck myself up by realizing that it's also tied to "laziness". It's a cop-out: by avoiding my driving exam (or pretty much any exam) I take the easy way. I should just fucking do it already. But then I freak out thinking I'm just plain dumb and will probably fail anyway.

John, hugs, dude.

Nath you are the best

cozwn is just funning, not a big deal, somebody said that line on some other thread a while back so it was just a comedy callback, I am just being emo beause yeah I feel like the real me has gone hiding somewhere I can't find him and it's really depression-causing

should not probably be talking about this on internet I guess tho.

Oh I know where it came from.

that was one of those moments where someone tries to make a joke & totally misses the funny by being straight up mean, like calling a chick fat at a party or something

sorry john, I was just goofing off, u kno I love u and ur music

thank you cozwn, it's OK, don't even think a 2nd think about it I knew you did not mean it with malice I am just kinda drowning today I will be all right.

there is no hope no hope in the world for any of us - enjoy yrselves!

ok now I know I'm fucked up I lol'd at an ice cr?am post

hi j0hn! dammit dude write a chapter :D

and i lold at a cozwn post ;)

dude in a sick way if it makes you feel better I feel better knowing these feelings aren't a myth of youth that fade away and I am not a sick fuck for having them too

but think: the irony is if you did tat that on yr hand it'd kill job prospects :O you will have effectively defined yourself as a line cook

line cook is a noble profession

the more you suffer the more it shows you really care...

right?

*playfully posts youtube*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bndtwb212-Y

but in all seriousness, j0hn... i think there's the delicate line of art/commerce at work. warhol's famous words on the subject:

+ Business art is the step that comes after Art. I started as a commercial artist, and I want to finish as a business artist.

+ I loved working when I worked at commercial art and they told you what to do and how to do it and all you had to do was correct it and they'd say yes or no. The hard thing is when you have to dream up the tasteless things to do on your own.

+ I do the same thing everyday. I go to work and paint. I try to turn out as many pictures as I can.

+ Making money is art and working is art and good business is the best art.

+ Being born is like being kidnapped. And then sold into slavery.

+ Why do people think artists are special? It's just another job.

+ Don't pay any attention to what they write about you. Just measure it in inches.

+ I suppose I have a really loose interpretation of 'work', because I think that just being alive is so much work at something you don't always want to do.

wikipedia counts 17 albums alone... dude, that is a lot of hard work to write and record 17 albums.

shit, let your work define you at this point. be proud of it, you've done something that 99.99% of people not named jandek have done, and live a comfortable life doing so.

why not let the non-public aspects of your life be nuanced and private?

when are u going to record a novelty disco record

discodarni3ll3

I think what helps when I feel extremely down - hate using the word depressed - is that I can step away from it, take the "jacket" off. (Though it's always slumbering.) It works both ways of course: I know my happiness is sometimes left behind in the closet and I get really... morose. But I realize that my moods are caused by "me" not some outside factor(s). So, uh, I guess that coping mechanism (maybe) doesn't work for you, John.

Fuck hiding it, John,if you need to release here, then why not? Whatever helps.

Cozwn, sorry I ragged on you, but it seemed pretty clear John is/was trying to express something.

it's fucking hard to think of yourself as 2. like there's you, and then there's the you that thinks about you.

MAKE THEM BE FRIENDS

:)

It's not like I think about two different Nathalies. I just know that the state I am is very... transient.

Friends with myself? I'm shocked others want to befriend me or in fact ARE friends with me.

sometimes i step back and think, people want to be my friend. why?

and then i look in the mirror, and i understand. haha jk.

no, you're not. or you shouldn't be. U R KOOLIO

no worries, nath, I ws just being a flip wiseass

Self esteem is just the neutral term for a continuous scale of self-evaluated self worth. The lowest point on the scale is pure self loathing, with crippling self doubt being just a tad higher. The upper end of the scale is self-aggrandizement.

Someone upthread asked how to raise low self esteem. The key ingredient is foregiveness. Everyone screws up, falls short, hurts themselves or others, forgets to do what's important and wastes effort on futile pursuits. Some people take it harder than others and self-identify as hurtful screwups dogged by futility, most often because at least one parent ragged on them when they made mistakes.

This is one of the major sources of Christian conversion, btw. People who see themselves in the light of their sins (where a "sin" is just one's falling short of the mark) and can't deal with it on their own find Christ and he takes on the job of forgiving them, so they don't have to deal with it. For certain people this works a treat.

It's also a fundamental reason why so many churches start telling kids early on that their childish errors are actually profound sins; implanting a deep conviction of sin keeps them stuck to the church like flies on flypaper.

"Don't let your job be the main thing that defines you."

should have this tattooed on my right fucking hand tbh

____________________________________________

I feel like the real me has gone hiding somewhere I can't find him

It may come from a very different place (I don't presume to know precisely how anyone else is feeling), but I feel this way, too. There's an empty, undeveloped residential lot next to my office, which is now overgrown with these very Southern-looking weeds. I find myself staring at those tall weeds -- and the dragonflies buzzing over them -- every day. It reminds me of being young, unburdened, with lots of options in front of me. I feel very different now. I'm happy, but I also feel like work and responsibilities and pressures send the "real me" into hiding.

So, whatevs. To the extent it helps to feel you're not alone: You're not alone.

I once wrote a poem (since lost) about deliberately killing my potential, so I could start to just live. I was one of those bright kids that adults keep telling they have a big future ahead of them. I finally decided that I had to strangle all such notions, if I ever wanted to be happy. I was right.

The "real you" is just a healthier form of your potential, that's waiting for favorable circumstances to emerge. Be patient. And when the time comes, be ready.

you guys are really great btw. thank you. I actually ended up taking Louis's advice and working on my book. doing writing-writing (prose, am working on 2nd book) there in the Syracuse airport & then in Cleveland and I found that exploring that land of Stuff I Imagine Would Make For A Less Stressful Day-to-Day (which it wouldn't, right, that's the nature of the day-to-day) opened up that land of I Am Full Of Potential instead of the everything's-worthless-and-so-am-I that I was in.

so thank you Louis and Nath & Steve and all y'all here for really giving me a lifeline because in the release-and-tour cycle pipeline/bottleneck I cannot even describe the depths of self-hate & depression I descend into it is really hard and you helped a dude out today and I really appreciate it.

aww i'm gonna tear up here

me too! glad you found some sort of valid occupation to keep you going! and that my words, albeit brief ones, helped a dude out. now how's about that EHQay uestgay istlay thing I ILXmailed you about... :D

(in all seriousness, I can barely imagine the mental rigours of a lengthy tour, the repeated presentation of self...hang in there man!)

and yeah ILXors tend to be pretty helpful in these situations...Nath can you plz be on permanent duty ;)

tbh my self esteeem has just been thru the roof lately. it's like something happened in my body and now i like myself more. granted, through the roof for me is like, its own thing. but um, yeah.

i think it has something to do with recognizing my strengths, and weaknesses. instead of just trying to be perfect.

surm you are a regular sweetheart, you do know that <3

awwww :) stop it you

best post of the thread probably goes to abbott tho

lj I never check that email account but now I have.

cool :) plz forgive accidental double-use of 'contented/contentment', unaccountable rhetorical mishaps 101