politics and tactics aside, what are you feeling about war?

my prediction is that there will be no terrorist strikes whatsoever in the USA during the war, and people who got very worried about it all will feel a bit silly afterwards.

I'm starting to feel very detached about the war itself. At an abstracted intellectual level I am wondering things like: i) how many people will be killed ii) how easy the war will be for the axis of cockfarming iii) whether the Iraqi army will fight at all iv) what will happen to Saddam Hussein personally v) etc.

i wonder how the iraqi man who defrauded me of my car is feeling about his family stuck in iraq.

For this specific war I don't know I really don't know. I'm not really scared its so distant yet so close.

I wouldn't feel silly. 9/11 happened, didn't it?

I have realized if I sit here any more longer I shall do nothing else for the evening. I shall get up and put things away and do some cleaning and then go to bed. It is my own small way of dealing with things and feelings I can't control.

I can't wait to vote Bush out of office.

Just the flaunting of power is revolting. I feel ashamed.

That's the thing estela, the way countries like yours are forced to sort of fall in line. I mean, what can anyone do? It makes everyone in the world feel like an idiot.

Oh, yeah, non-politics? It makes me want to not ever raise children.

I'm reminded of the lines in David Bowie's 'Fantastic Voyage':

We're learning to live with somebody's depression
And I don't want to live with somebody's depression

The song goes on:

It's a very modern world -- but nobody's perfect
It's a moving world -- but that's no reason
To shoot some of those missiles
Think of us as fatherless scum
It won't be forgotten
For we'll never say anything nice again, will we?

I think it's written in the voice of a Turkish immigrant. And I'm pleased to see that the Turkish PM has refused definitively to allow US troops to attack Iraq from the north. US planes will be able to overfly Turkey but not stop to refuel in its bases. The US has withdrawn its 'aid package' as a result. I also note that Bush has lost his bid to drill in the nature reserves of Alaska today. And that China, Russia, France and Germany are condemning his war in the strongest possible terms.

Like all these people, we must 'never say anything nice again' to Bush and his administration. But we shouldn't 'learn to live with their depression'. The future can still be full of fantastic things. Have children, and bring them up to believe that they can make the world better. Hatch plans, because in a year Bush will hopefully be gone and we can get back to focusing on peace, trade, co-operation, optimism. His presidency will be seen as one brief, dark blip. He will, I trust, be facing some kind of international tribunal by then.

be facing some kind of international tribunal by then.

Totally aparrent, and totally a pipe dream.

That Bowie song is one of my favorites of his. Btw, post more Momus, you good person you.

I'm also feeling selfish 'cause most of my mind is being occupied by party planning and bustling around with the website.

I just got phoned up to give some soundbytes to a news agency on 'how the war will play out online'. "There might be more activity on discussion boards." I said!

I mean, I think there would be something wrong with me if I wasn't angry really, and I'm not even looking at papers and I'm really staying away from TV and their maps and their pretty pictures and the fucking 'commentators' and ppl who think this is some fucking historical moment and dress it up as that.

I know people in New York are nervous and will probably continue to be, but seriously: if you're running around terrified now, you're going to be feeling pretty daft in a few months.

Everybody says that when you have kids your feelings change, you're more worried about the future of the planet etc. I have to say, I don't feel worried for my son as regards possible repercussions from the war. (I do worry all the time about getting knocked down while pushing his pram, dropping a tin can on his head, him getting hold of the bread knife and cutting himself etc, everyday parent paranoia.) I really don't. We're even flying across the Atlantic next month, but that parent paranoia hasn't kicked in once about that. I just think, more grief checking in but more space on the flight.

However, what makes me more even more angry than last time is the thought of ordinary families in Iraq (and elsewhere) who are facing serious consequences.

Slightly off topic from this war (but not entirely unconnected), an example of this can be found in the e-mails of Rachel Corrie (the US peace protestor killed by an Israeli bulldozer) back to her family. You can find them here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,916299,00.html

It's uncharitable, I know, but when I hear people in the UK or US worrying about what might happen to them I think about the daily life of your average Palestinian or Iraqi person at the moment (or ordinary Israeli facing the threat of suicide bombers, for that matter) and a part of me just thinks "pull yourself together".

It's really amusing to hear Bush saying they will 'try' to minimise civilian casualties. Minimise -- as if a single innocent death can ever be justified, particularly in a situation where *we* are the agrressor, pre-empting future dangers or not.

i'm also wondering if there's any way i can help people in iraq because this war isn't hurting ME. charity type stuff, not protest stuff.

It's just like, ok, if terrorists want to bomb NYC or commit chemical warfare, it's just as likely that my neighborhood/apartment could be affected as any other point in the city. It's not worth worrying about because there's nothing I can do about that. If I die, well I lived a good life. C'est la vie.

I guess it just bugs me when I get people worry warting over war fears because whether you go out and have a great time, or if you sit at home and shake, you will die regardless.

Wow, that was so cheerful, sign me up for the positivity crew. DO YOU REALIZE THAT EVERYONE YOU KNOW ONE DAY WILL DIE???! PUPPIES GROW UP TO BE DOGS WHO GROW OLD AND DIE! SAME THING FOR KITTENS!

And they took over my soap opera. I have so few pleasures in life. *sniff*.

I mean not really, that's sarcasm but still. If they'd shut up people would be less nervous.

But this, especially the ones at the bottom of the list, did make me laugh. Apologies if it's been posted before.

(http://titaniumcounter.com/temp/emergency/

When we went into watch the tv and found out it was just normal bombs being used, I was strangely relieved for a second then emotion changed to a kind of quiet shock. Which resulted in watching the television until about 8 in the morning obsessed with not missing anything. I've not watched any news for about 8 hours now. I didn't want to get obssessed and be trapped by it.

As for how I feel about it just now. Still not too sure, very slight sense of guilt(that I can't get to the source of), determiniation to enjoy myself whenever I can, and a vague feeling of cynicism. I always feel really annoyed at myself when I think cynically.

Also a vague sense of threat and shame, the shame forced upon me because I'm spineless and a traitor and I probably kick women in the face while licking a replica of Saddam's arse... Boris Johnson telling me how I'm secretly hoping for our people to die in droves to prove how 'right' I am made me feel physically ill, although not as ill as I'd feel with a face full of chemical agent. Some self-loathing at this late hour.

Seeing it on TV in a pub where the football usually was made me feel utterly cut off from reality.

Actually that would be terrible for all the people, but I am so angry I almost think it would serve them right. Maybe we should all be buried in the sand and leave it to the cockroaches.

I think that Iraq is a very dangerous place. But even if it was nuked into a glass coffee table with oil rigs on top, the waters of terror would just bubble up in some other wacko, holy war-loving state. Technology has made it possible for anyone with a grudge to retaliate on a scale never before possible. The war on terror is going to end up like the war on drugs.

I am amazed that so many people get their nuts in a wad over a fucking desolate area of Alaska. That's what it is, desolate. It is a desert with snow. The environmental consequences would be very minimal, comparatively speaking. No one wants to live there, no one wants to vacation there, and no one wants to have a peace protest there. This sort of energy and vigor should be spent protecting our own back yards, for in actuality the threat of pollution and lasting environmental impact is much, much more impacting and relevant. But it's oh-so-much more glamorous to hang onto the idea that "pristine wilderness" somehow has more intrinsic value.

The thing about places where no one wants to live is that often they are refugia for aspects of biodiversity than cannot coexist with people, hence tend to be rare and worthy of protection. I cannot explain that value now sorry, I have drafted about 1k words, but that would be boring. I shouldn't start up about this. Is it enough to say that I would like to vacation in Alaska?

I am glad people are worrying about my backyard. There is a creek running through it, and every rainstorm brings cigarette butts and broken bottles from upstream. It's quite worrysome to see my son pick up the broken bits of bottles and butts and ask me why they are there. Here's a big shout out to the smokers of the world, who seem to enjoy flicking their butts out of their window at the stopsign.

There is virtually no evidence anywhere that ANWAR is any sort of "refugia" for aspects of biodiversity that cannot coexist with people. The biodiversity that currently exists there did not get there because of people, and the overwhelming majority of it will outlast any people that show up there to live, vacation, or get laid.

Furthermore, I generally do not consider rarity more worthy of protection than preponderance so it is extremely difficult for me to follow the posited logic.

Also, since you bring it up, I heartily recommend vacationing in Alaska. I've personally spent four weeks of my life up there and it's amazing. In fact, I'd love love love to go back. But there's so much to see, and honestly, the ANWAR area is so desolate and so remote, I'm not sure why anyone would want to commit time to that area when there is so much more to explore.

It is absolutely true that there are lots of things that can't be where there are major developments. You have to remember that biodiversity is more than spotted owls. It means higher up and further out too: communities, ecosystems, landscapes. Does that help? Its something to do with extinction being a fate worse than death. Things that exist have value.

Higher levels of organisation have more value (a community is worth more than a species is worth more than a population is worth more than an individual). The exception is a loyalty to one's own family/species which is why its ok for you to worry more about your son than a cariboo.

This is why though, to take a hypothetical example related to what I was doing yesterday, it matters more that the last of the Myosotis glauca is lost than that a couple ha of red tussock is lost. There's lots more red tussock, that M glauca was the only population. Though there are 1000000 qualifications and exceptions and hence I can't convince you. Like I said, sorry.

You posted that places where no one lives are "often refugia" for biodiversity. I merely submit that ANWAR is not, in fact, one of those places. I would love to be enlightened otherwise, whether it was in the format of 1K words or not. You know, just link and I'll follow. I'd cheerfully admit if my bullshit was outtaline, too.

Also, I'm well aware of the fact that spotted owls (or snail darters, if you want to go that route) are not biodiversity in themselves and that biodiversity even on a general level is possibly too complex for the confines of this debate. I might add that even defining a localized area would be difficult under the guise of biodiversity since the entire world is affected by so many, well, worldly forces such as tides, global wind patterns and the like. But I digress. It's all one big earth, right?

Breaking it down to some sort of lowest-organisational organism level is pretty much splitting hairs, given the situation. Are you seriously arguing that drilling in ANWAR is going to have a larger impact on the world than the havoc being wreaked within 200 miles of my own home by the metroplitan area I live in? Yes, my loyalty to my family and my species is supreme, but that loyalty is not a zero sum game. To me, this issue is one of priority and little more.

I don't think that saying biodiversity = the whole world is quite right either. More like, that diversity is expressed at different scales and should be preserved at all those scales (ie from genetic to landscape levels). This is not me going out on a limb or at the cutting edge of conservation ethics. Its pretty general stuff, lipserviced in various treaties and what have you.

I don't think that drilling in ANWAR would be worse than whatever's happening near where you live. Worse is a dumb word. But I think it would be preventable and is being prevented, so I am happy, on a day when most news I hear has been bad [I am trying to get back to the original theme of this thread, which has been sidetracked]

Austin's arrests topped out at 50 but that's unusual for Texas.

Frankly, I'm ambivalent. I'm not "horrified" or "angry" that we dared to overthrow a nasty dictator who's refused to comply with international law for the last 12 years after he invaded a nearby country. People die, and that is quite unfortunate, but what's the other solution (s)? Lift sanctions and hope Saddam doesn't do anything? Keep 'em on? People will die uselessly then too. I'm not saying the US should invade every country that turns a nasty look their way, but Iraq is hardly some peace loving locale, nor is it home to serious religious fervor. Matter of fact, its both one of the most educated and secular nations in the Middle East, in part thanks to the fact its leader is nasty fuck.

But, yea, I know, we supported him in Iran and we didn't go apeshit when he bombed the Kurds. But did you do *anything* when massacres started in Rwanda and Burundi? Oh, France and Russia must be "pacifists"...they don't want a war in Iraq. Yea, right. Tell the Algerians or the Georgians that sometime. I'm sure everyone in Chechnya will tell you how those wonderful Russians are *so* humanitarian to them.

Both sides of the debate have gone into full-scale bullshit mode. The cats who "want war" would tie Saddam Hussein to the asassination of Archduke Ferdinand if they could. Doesn't hurt their position though when Iraqi SCUDs are landing in the desert. The anti-war protestors are pretty much clinging to utter pacifism and the belief that at some point, the whole arab world will be angered. They might be right. Except in Iran, where they'll probably party in the street when Saddam gets executed. As for Iraq, if the US actually stays for once and bothers with that nasty "nation building", it would be damn good for the Iraqi people. They're better equipped to handle it than anyone else in the Gulf. Unless of course, you think they're somehow genetically unable to accept a democracy (you know, like Germany and Japan were). Plus, they have a hell of a lot of natural resources. But I'm sure everyone who is anti-war is convinced Shell will treat Iraq like Nigeria MK.2. We'll find out.

So yeah, I'm not scared or upset by the idea of conflict or even that a few civilians might be killed. I'm not cheering for lots of people to die, but I hope they get to roll into Baghdad with little or no problems.

I'm also completely baffled as to why people wouldn't at least "support the troops". Its like spitting on the Vietnam conscripts. Yea, you might be against what the war stands for, but what do you expect those guys to do? Lay down their guns so that they can become martyrs (following the certain court marshalling) for you? C'mon. Its not like they said, "I'd like to kill 60,000 Iraqi troops today." Anyone who thinks its tht way is seriously fucked.

Save me. Save me from tomorrow
I don't want to sail with this ship of fools. No, no
Oh, save me. Save me from tomorrow
I don't want to sail with this ship of fools
I want to run and hide right now

Avarice and greed are gonna drive you over the endless sea
They will leave you drifting in the shallows
or drowning in the oceans of history
Traveling the world, you're in search of no good
but I'm sure you'll build your Sodom like you knew you would
Using all the good people for your galley slaves
as you're little boat struggles through the warning waves, but you don't pay

You will pay tomorrow
You're gonna pay tomorrow
You're gonna pay tomorrow

Save me. Save me from tomorrow
I don't want to sail with this ship of fools
Save me. Save me from tomorrow
I don't want to sail with this ship of fools
Where's it comin' from?
Where's it goin' to now?
It's just a It's just a ship of fools

Ship Of Fools (World Party)

(From site 'Leo's Lyrics')

Generals and Majors ah ah
they're never too far
from battlefields so glorious
out in a world of their own
They'll never come down
till once again victorious
Generals and Majors always
seem so unhappy 'less they got a war
Generals and Majors ah ah
like never before are tired of being actionless.
Calling Generals and Majors
Generals and Majors everywhere
Calling Generals and Majors
your World War III is drawing near
Generals and Majors ah ah
They're never too far
away from men who made the grade
out in a world of their own
They'll never come down
until the battle's lost or made
Generals and Majors ah ah
like never before, are tired of being in the shade.

(generals and majors, XTC)

Hey, I like remote desolation! I loved my trip to AK and would go back in a second.

See now, I literally can't believe this. I can imagine that Blair was playing "I will come out of this as a braking influence on Bush that swung the world back from anarchic madness - everyone still loves moderates don't they?".

But I have to believe that Bush is looking at a purely Faustian bargain: Get the people scared, set up some nice oil deals to see friends and families right for the later years, and retire to presidental security and the sort of mellowing that Nixon benefitted from (though Nixon actually had positive qualities).

But if I believed that the history books would look back on this period (of which the foreign policy is the pleasant half) as anything other than a regressive McCarthy/Nixon tarnishing of the American dream, I'd throw myself in front of a bus.