"The worse that he treats me, the more that I love him."

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Why does it work this way?

I used to laugh at the stupid Nings on chat shows whinging in this fashion. The boy is a loser, he treats her like shit, all her friends hate him, yet the more he acts like a total twunt, the more she loves him.

Instead of thinking it's something wrong with the man, she internalises it and thinks it's something wrong with *her*, that she can fix it by abasing herself. The dreaded low self esteem kicks in, he makes her feel as awful as she believes she is. She doesn't believe that she deserves any better. Some basic instinct kicks in, some "I want the one I can't have" thing takes over. The worse he behaves, the more she loves him.

Why does it WORK this way? I feel like I'm trapped in someone else's soap opera psycho drama and I'm on the verge of becoming a Channel Five movie of the week.

kate (suzy), Saturday, 22 March 2003 10:48 (twenty-three years ago)

I don't know. I've never been in precisely this situation. But I've been in situations where I've persisted past the point where I was clearly not wanted... And of course the more horribly the person treated me, the more I wanted them... But it was my fault for pursuing them. They never led me on. They never let me think that anything was going to happen. I feel like I made them into assholes. That I made them into what they were because nothing else would get it into my head that this was *not going to happen*.

(BTW, check yr mail)

Melissa W (Melissa W), Saturday, 22 March 2003 10:56 (twenty-three years ago)

I've checked my mail. There is nothing new in there.

Yesterday I sent Horton a rather drunk email saying that I was in love with him, and I didn't want to see him any more. I'm giving mixed messages as much as he is.

I am going to go to the march now. Better to do something than to sit around feeling like shit. This was his excuse for his behaviour the other night, BTW. "Oh, the war is upsetting me." Yeah, that's why you had to ruin what should have been the best night of my life. Thanks. It's George W Bush, not your temper tantrums, silly me.

Of I go...

kate (suzy), Saturday, 22 March 2003 11:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Could it be that you invest or project so much hope and so many dreams into sharing a life with this person, that when they trample all over your investment, it's easier to pick your dreams up, wipe them down, make excuses etc and then re-invest them in the same person rather than walking away and trying to re-invent the huge emotional investment with someone else?

I believe that's so in my case anyway.

Tatyana, Saturday, 22 March 2003 11:01 (twenty-three years ago)

Not the yahoo.co.uk account, the other one?

Melissa W (Melissa W), Saturday, 22 March 2003 11:02 (twenty-three years ago)

it's probably because of the war.

duane, Saturday, 22 March 2003 11:12 (twenty-three years ago)

blame the war and hstencil!

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Saturday, 22 March 2003 16:35 (twenty-three years ago)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0099482304/qid=1048351069/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_3_1/026-5872228-0110810

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Saturday, 22 March 2003 16:38 (twenty-three years ago)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0971157200/qid=1048351254/sr=1-15/ref=sr_1_0_15/202-1043331-0404668

jess (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 22 March 2003 16:42 (twenty-three years ago)

a better choice jess.

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Saturday, 22 March 2003 16:47 (twenty-three years ago)

I've learnt a lot about something very close to this. My ex-wife was something of an expert on domestic violence, and she was repeatedly an expert witness in court cases where these mystifying effects were manifested. Low self-esteem has a great deal to do with it - this is something that these men exploit and reinforce (time to emphasise that I am NOT saying this about Horton at all, but in general in abusive relationships - which I am also not trying to say the one Kate describes is), leading to the woman not trusting her own judgement at all (one woman in the refuge where my wife worked, she couldn't get dressed without someone coming up to her room and pretty much choosing her clothes for her), not believing she is worth anything better, that this is what she deserves and it is only right and natural (one woman who my ex was taking to an appointment waited at the back of the car - she took it for granted that she would have to ride in the boot).

I'm not trying to shoehorn Kate and Horton into anything remotely like these roles. I don't need to think in those terms to believe that he has treated you badly Kate, more than once, and that he would be bad for you. I also have the sense not to imagine that my opinion has any relevance here - but I do hope you'll be careful, Kate, as I can not imagine any good from this.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Saturday, 22 March 2003 16:51 (twenty-three years ago)

No, it is a documented pattern. My last serious relationship was an incredibly abusive relationship, and I'm re-enacting those roles because of a pattern that I've learned. This must stop. I'm not saying that Horton has been abusive, but this is not a healthy friendship, and the patterns being enacted are things that I learned in that abusive relationship. It must end. This hurts, and upsets me, but it must end.

Wow. Protest was pretty amazing. I had to cut out early cause I'm going to Cambridge to review We Start Fires, but it was pretty awesome. Not as many people as the last one, obviously, but nearly a million people, regardless. Really good vibe.

kate (suzy), Saturday, 22 March 2003 17:06 (twenty-three years ago)

And no, Melissa, there is nothing new in my inbox. Please resend to the yahoo account because I didn't get anything.

kate (suzy), Saturday, 22 March 2003 17:08 (twenty-three years ago)

Nearly a million people??

N. (nickdastoor), Saturday, 22 March 2003 17:36 (twenty-three years ago)

That's what they said on the stage. I think it was actually probably more like half a million. But still a heck of a lot.

kate (suzy), Saturday, 22 March 2003 17:38 (twenty-three years ago)

Well, I'd say that you'd achieved the first major step: recognising that this relationship isn't good for you. (Be proud, since not many people get even that far.) The next is being brave enough to say (and hold true to) those immortal words: "I've had enough".

Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Saturday, 22 March 2003 23:51 (twenty-three years ago)

Sorry, I can't stop thinking about this, therefore can't stop talking about it. I'm just really fascinated by the machinations of how someone who claims to be a feminist, who claims to be into female empowerment, how someone who is supposed to be intelligent and self aware can still get sucked into this crap. And REPEATEDLY sucked into this crap.

I keep thinking about my reactions on Thursday night. The moment Horton went into tantrum mode, I went into preservation mode, tried to calm him down, tried to appease him, kept blaming myself for it all, sacrficed my enjoyment of what was supposed to be the best night of my life. It was like I was with Hasbeen all over again. The smart thing to do would be to just turn around and walk away and say "Go home" but no - I was so programmed that if I walked away from a strop, WORSE things would happen - suicide attempts, infidelity, escalation, stalking, etc. - that I was literally terrified to let Horton go stropping out like that. Every tantrum that Hasbeen threw was accompanied by and excused by an "I love you" - so you learn to interpret that behaviour as showing love, of course, I respond by being more in love with him, that's what I've been programmed to do.

It's not because of the war, that's bullshit. It's because for one night, he wasn't the total fucking centre of attention. Even though I desperately tried to make him the centre of my attention, that wasn't good enough for him.

This shit fucking scares me. I don't want to go back there, I don't want to go through this again. This isn't love, this is manipulation and control. I've deleted his number from my phone, I've deleted his email address from my address book. This isn't healthy, this has to end.

kate (suzy), Sunday, 23 March 2003 01:18 (twenty-three years ago)

At the time, I was scared and concillatory and desperate. Now I'm just angry. That should have been the best night of my life, but now, instead of thinking "Oh, I played the Shepherds Bush Empire" or "Oh my god, we supported The Bangles" I think "Jesus Christ, this fucking cunt I thought I was in love with got me thrown out of my own show, then stormed off leaving me so upset that the rest of the night was a drunken write-off."

Isn't that the story of my life? The most powerful events of the last few years have been marred by boys. Why do boys suck so hard, and why do I *LET* them suck so hard?

kate (suzy), Sunday, 23 March 2003 01:26 (twenty-three years ago)

Oh GOD and the worst thing is, his band is still supposed to play my birthday party. What do I do? Do I pull out, and cancel our performance and find another venue for my party? Do I try to pull in a favour with the promoters and get them thrown off the bill? I don't think that I can be big enough to just ignore him and enjoy the evening anyway. He's not ruining another Big Night of my life. I refuse.

kate (suzy), Sunday, 23 March 2003 01:29 (twenty-three years ago)

Stay strong Kate. Don't let this upward spiral be dampened by losers. If you act like a star you will be treated like a star. But you have to stop using it on losers in bars.

S Samson, Sunday, 23 March 2003 01:35 (twenty-three years ago)

yeah, what he said. horton sounds like a cock-knocker, i hope that whatever happens he does not ruin your birthday party. best of luck.

di smith (lucylurex), Sunday, 23 March 2003 01:43 (twenty-three years ago)

La ley:

You've got it reversed. The more you love them the worse they'll treat you.
We create our own hell. The birthday party solution is simple. It's complicated only because you want it to be.

"Should be's," "supposed to be's" and "could've been's" are a big load of horse shit. There are only "is's," "are's" and "were's."

lust in august, Sunday, 23 March 2003 01:55 (twenty-three years ago)

''''''!

RJG (RJG), Sunday, 23 March 2003 02:04 (twenty-three years ago)

From what it sounds like, you don't particularly like him, you're not related to him, he's a grownup, so you don't have to spend any more time on him.

isadora (isadora), Sunday, 23 March 2003 03:51 (twenty-three years ago)

This is good, Kate. Keep it up, and good luck.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Sunday, 23 March 2003 11:46 (twenty-three years ago)

A few years ago, I had another flatmate called Kate who was the sister of one of my oldest friends. She was dating a cunt of a male model called James and had a real yuppie job with high-pressure deadlines, meetings and the like. The company she was working for got a lot out of her. The minute that James figured out Kate had something huge on at work the next day, he would stick to her the preceding night, picking fights, insisting on 'talking about it' until 3am or just creating situations where he was the person at the centre of (whether positive or negative, he wasn't picky) attention. Kate was invariably exhausted the next day, lost her focus and after about three months of this pattern was dangerously close to getting the sack from the job that was paying for James to swank it up all over Ladbroke Grove (he basically worked when he felt like it, eg. not often).

Her friends took umbrage first. We stopped extending invitations to Kate unless she came along without James, who we began insulting to his face, asking when he was going to get a job or whatever scheme he was in the midst of off the ground. We had noticed he was always throwing wobblies the night before her most important work days and told her to keep what was going on at work secret from him, because he was trying to make her feel useless when she could least afford to be. He turned into a bit of a stalker for a month and I turned into the evil flatmate: 'no, she isn't here, she's gone on a package holiday to Neptune'.

He didn't go quickly, and Kate was the type who worried about her reputation and I think was trying to keep him sweet in case he called her a slut all over West London (honestly, she was kind of a Daily Mail girl and was scared of being hoist by these sorts of petards). Every couple of weeks, I'd wake to find his bike in the hallway - he'd clearly wormed his way back - and would shove it out onto the doorstep where I prayed the local feral 10-year-olds would thief it to pieces.

Kate eventually left James, but did so by making James think he was dumping her. I've never clapped eyes on him since, and Kate did eventually get her shit together - but she never would have without completely cutting off Mr Limelight Stealer.

From everything my current Flatmate Kate says, HJ has Limelight Stealer written all over him. These boys never get anywhere with their plans because they always attach themselves to charismatic but troubled girls who are more talented and more intelligent than they are. But in the event that their own plans for world domination fail, and they always do, all they can do is ruin someone else's.

suzy (suzy), Sunday, 23 March 2003 12:30 (twenty-three years ago)

The problem is the old reverse psychology thing. If you constantly put someone on the defensive about the person that they love, they will act defensive towards them, and you will only cement the bonds between them, and make the boy's power over them stronger. The pity thing comes into it, as well, as does that "us and them against the world" thing. I've heard the story of your former flatmate before, Suze. In fact, I think you told it to me while I was going through similar shit with Hasbeen.

With HJ, a lot of it is my own fault. I attached myself to him as much as he ever attached himself to me. And please remember he is NOT my boyfriend, and we are NOT in a romantic relationship. Which kind of even makes it worse, cause I'm not even getting that tiny thrill out of it. He's just a confused and fucked up and troubled man. My problem with him, and I think all of my friends' problem with him is not actually with *him* - but with the way that *I* act when I'm around him and under his influence.

:-(

kate (suzy), Sunday, 23 March 2003 12:39 (twenty-three years ago)

kate, email me.

actually i'll email you now.

or ring me. whatever.

Marcello Carlin, Sunday, 23 March 2003 12:55 (twenty-three years ago)

Kate, in all seriousness, you have to ask yourself why you are making yourself unhappy. You played to the biggest audiences in your career. You are getting your shit together. One more push and it could be happening. Artistry is neuroticism! Yes. But it is also supposed to make you catheratic. It can be you and him against the world. But soon the world is not going to be listening. And by the sounds of it you are on the cusp of really making things happen. GET IT TOGETHER. : - D

S Samson, Sunday, 23 March 2003 13:12 (twenty-three years ago)

Well I emailed Kate. Never let it be said I don't try... :-(

Marcello Carlin, Sunday, 23 March 2003 13:13 (twenty-three years ago)

yay she's replied! :-)

Marcello Carlin, Sunday, 23 March 2003 13:16 (twenty-three years ago)

Ok! Ok! OK! Doomie-style nagging worked, Marcello! Have to finish this CTCL article tonight, but drinks tomorrow or Wednesday.

I suddenly remembered something very funny about Thursday night. Standing chatting to Peter H at the aftershow, going "Wah wah wah, I just played the gig of my life, and all I'm doing is stressing out about this dumb boy that just blew me off..." and Peter just grinned and said something like "Yes, Courtney..." Or maybe I hallucinated that. I don't know.

kate (suzy), Sunday, 23 March 2003 13:17 (twenty-three years ago)

(At the risk of being annoying... Kate, I forwarded the email to your Yahoo account...)

Melissa W (Melissa W), Sunday, 23 March 2003 13:33 (twenty-three years ago)

There is an article I read today, in the Observer or the Guardian... can't remember which. It was about the influence of Freud, and how he did actually say some positive and useful things. Or maybe it was another one of those cardigan-wearing barefoot doctor style magazine columns about relationships, I don't know. It was talking about how you remake over and over your family relationships in your romantic relationships. And how you will drive or force the other into that role to fulfill your scripts. I know I drive men to abandon me because I grew up without a father. But I can't help but thinking that the whole being attracted to men who chew me up and spit me out in their quest for attention, positive or negative... that's all about my borderline schitzophrenic psycho brother and how I've never been as good or important or intelligent or as valued or as loved as him in the eyes of my family. God, I fill with rage just thinking about him. Fuck, he even goes *insane* better than me. He supports this goddamn war and my mother still loves him better than me. He's the man I grew up having the closest relationship to, and he's the one who's always eclipsed me and treated me as if I was an adjunct or accessory to his glory, so no wonder I'm attracted to men like HJ.

I am so angry, why can't I concentrate on this article? I think of my brother getting paid to spew out his Republican race-hatred on his right wing websites and I can't throw together 350 words of love and joy about a band that inspire me. :-(

kate (suzy), Sunday, 23 March 2003 16:01 (twenty-three years ago)

i am ridiculously jealous of people who can have normal unturbulent love lives. kate you are once again OTM. i would like to pretend freud never existed, but some of his shit is painfully applicable to my own life and to the lives i see around me.

di smith (lucylurex), Sunday, 23 March 2003 16:30 (twenty-three years ago)

I was so programmed that if I walked away from a strop, WORSE things would happen - suicide attempts, infidelity, escalation, stalking, etc. - that I was literally terrified to let Horton go stropping out like that. Every tantrum that Hasbeen threw was accompanied by and excused by an "I love you"


oh my god, this describes what used to happend with my ex almost to a t. suicide threats were used as ways to seek attention, manipulate and guilt trip me all the time. and every episode of psychotic-ness was followed by "but i love you and can't live without you etc. etc. etc." and there was always some lame-o excuse lined up when i'd call him on his shit, like "oh, but i think i'm (insert random mental illness here), and it's not really me that's doing this blah blah blah". and always a promise of "i won't do this again".

when i finally broke it off (successfully) he said he was cutting himself up (carving up his arms). he was trying to get attention from me, but i refused and totally ignored him. i stopped answering the phone, and got my sister to tell him i wasn't home. eventually, he stopped calling.

Kate, just keep strong and keep thinking like you're thinking. you fucking DESERVE to enjoy your accomplishments and don't need anybody dragging you down. i think anger is good in a situation like this, it lets you think more clearly (as odd as that sounds!). Good luck, and i hope the birthday party works out ok.

sand.y, Sunday, 23 March 2003 19:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Argh! Sandy, I'm so sorry! Is there a school that they go to where they learn this crap? (Ironically, you met the twunt that used to pull this shit with me - I was with him the night that I met you.)

(Of course I was not a grown-up about it. I slagged him off in passing in my review. Heh heh. CTCL is just one big bubbling hotbed of this sort of shit...)

Strength. I need strength.

kate (suzy), Sunday, 23 March 2003 19:15 (twenty-three years ago)

eeek Kate, i had no idea he was like that! some of them seem like the most normal people outwardly. i'm so sorry :( the thing with my ex was, i totally got creepy vibes off him when i met him, and yet i STILL let myself get involved with him! how fucking stupid is that?

and fuck being grown up about it, when someone's fucked you around like that, having a couple of digs in an article is nothing compared to what they've done to your self esteem, emotions etc.

i am sure you will find the strenght you need, since your head is already in the right place, and i'm assuming you *are* strong to begin with, since you've lived through similar shit before!

sand.y, Sunday, 23 March 2003 19:32 (twenty-three years ago)

I only got him to get in touch with you cos I thought you might be able to share some tour/rehearsal/pedal contacts & tips...

so sorry it's all gone so odd. guess that's someone else I always got on well with, who I can now probably not talk to in the same way again. Bah.

CharlieNo4 (Charlie), Monday, 24 March 2003 02:47 (twenty-three years ago)

http://users.netreach.net/treyl/psycho_old/thumbnails/psycho_small.gif

bug, Monday, 24 March 2003 03:03 (twenty-three years ago)

Charlie, I really don't see what my predicament has to do with how *you* treat him. It's nice when my friends show loyalty of that ilk towards me, but I really don't expect it any more.

The ironic thing is, because you are a Music Journo, and because he views you as an Important Contact who can help his career, he'll never actually pull this sort of shit with you. So you don't have to alter your behaviour in any way.

I've just received an interesting little piece of information, though, from a friend, which makes me think that the night was not in vain.

kate (suzy), Monday, 24 March 2003 08:39 (twenty-three years ago)

OH, it's nothing to do with *him* before you start thinking anything of that ilk...

kate (suzy), Monday, 24 March 2003 08:40 (twenty-three years ago)


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