Bob Kerrey's Vietnam Experience...

Who is Bob Kerrey then?

Either somebody is to blame, or nobody is.

Yes, there is somebody to blame for those atrocities. But my intention on this thread was to address issues such as the "fog of war" or the "red-blooded American" following the chain of command.

in what way precisely is massacaring civilians the action of an honourable man?

I am defending Kerrey based on what I've read about him and observed when he was in politics. I've also viewed him as a man of integrity and I was disturbed and disappointed when the allegations surfaced. Coincidentally, the allegations surfaced after he made a run for the White House. What a coincidence. If there is credible evidence aside from the conspiracists and kooks out to smear Kerrey, please inform me.

That was a part of the argument, and one prevailing interpretation of the thing. I have to admit that I didn't really delve into the details to make any sort of call on whether I think Kerrey was cold-blooded killer or frightened and confused innocent. I imagine in most cases it's some mix of the two, and from what I've seen I'm in no way inclined to pretend Kerrey some "fog of war" absolves Kerrey of responsibility for his actions.

He's pretty much out of politics, and likely wouldn't dream of getting back in with this over his head. But even if he did, I'm not so sure this sort of thing would affect my thinking of him: I know what his track record is in domestic politics and it's one I find reasonably appealing, village massacre or not. I know how glib that sounds, but it's the truth: things like this tend to be a lot more striking when the person hearing about them sees some connection between the decision made then and the decisions someone's making now. The fact that people didn't really see that with Kerrey is where most of the equivocation came from.

I also made a mistake mentioning "conspiracists and kooks." Dan Rather and 60 Minutes, NY Times Magazine are not kooks. They have been wrong though.

Ultimately I think that the decision to join the military in the first place -- if voluntary -- is the truest 'you can never judge' situation. I would never join the military, my dad did. His decision was in part patriotic motivation, in part general interest, and given that he was applying to the Naval Academy during the late fifties, he was well aware of the potential risks of what could happen if the Cold War turned very quickly hot. It was not decided lightly on his part.

but those allegations are pretty damning. If Kerrey led a unit that massacared women and children then he is a war criminal, and should have served a long period of time in jail. That is unless there were some kind of justifying circumstances - Kerrey troops were underfire and killed the civilians by accident or by mistakenly thinking that they were about to fire on them. But if the civilians were murdered in cold blood - well, that's not something you can explain away by talking about the fog of war or the morally difficult nature of warfare.

what do Kerrey and his supporters say happened in Tranh Phong?

neither bob kerrey nor one of his supporters but kerry claims that his squad of SEALs were fired upon by a village and his unit returned fire killing 21. he also reported civilian casualties. 5 other members of his squad reported the same senario of returning fire to the village with varying casualty reports (from 13 to over 20). one member of the squad, gerhard klann, told cbs news in 2001 that women and children were rounded up and executed. who's to say who's telling the truth? got me.

These allegations have likely ended his political career and that's probably as it should be, given the evidence against him. However I know that a number of New School students and professors are very uncomfortable with him occupying the top spot there.

Of course, in the end, the media are all about presenting the story they want to present anyway...

ii) In his defence, you could see how he might be a bit evasive even if he didn't order a massacare of the civilians. Maybe he felt guilty at their being accidentally killed, and felt that he should have known they were there and was being evasive about that.

I don't know, really.

John Kerry from Massachussets was "brown water" Navy swift boat skipper in Vietnam. He won combat medals too.

This was the conclusion a large number of Americans seemed to come to. There was a big weary sigh. "What a horrible war." It helps that major American films have done a lot of work to cast Vietnam as a near-psychotic war, a messy and conflicted one that sort of ate people's souls -- so when this came out, parts of the public were already prepped to blame it on the war and not the man.