What does it mean to believe in a fact?

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I think possibly the contentious term here is the word fact, but nevertheless can one believe in something which has been demonstrably true, and what is different about this kind of belief and the belief in that which is impossible to show.

And what about the belief in the demonstrably false?

(Hmm, I already have trouble with what I have already asked. This is a bullshit thread.)

― Pete (Pete), Tuesday, 25 March 2003 13:22 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeah - fuck this thread.

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 25 March 2003 13:25 (twenty-three years ago)

uh, last 500 years of western philosophy to thread...

― pete b. (pete b.), Tuesday, 25 March 2003 13:27 (twenty-three years ago)

fact: i can't work out* what contributions (if any) were made to western philosophy in 1503

*(by skimming thru my dictionary of biography for like 41.276 seconds)

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 25 March 2003 13:48 (twenty-three years ago)

Nostradamus was born, man. (OK, I don't know if this counts)

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 25 March 2003 13:51 (twenty-three years ago)

well he didn't publish his prophecies till later, but MAYBE HE ALREADY KNEW WHAT HE WAS GOING TO SAY!?!@@€€

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 25 March 2003 13:56 (twenty-three years ago)

1503 = Da Vinci began work on the Mona Lisa. This is, uh, key, obviously.

― pete b. (pete b.), Tuesday, 25 March 2003 13:57 (twenty-three years ago)

http://tralfaz-archives.com/mona/lizard.jpg

― ALL IS REVEALED (mark s), Tuesday, 25 March 2003 13:59 (twenty-three years ago)

I think you have to choose to believe in it, or not to believe in it. It's all down to you.

― the pinefox, Tuesday, 25 March 2003 14:02 (twenty-three years ago)

Nostradamus != philosophy.

Nostradamus = incroyable Google blip end of September 2001.

But an interesting example with regards to belief. After all the whole business of prophecy involves believing in the prophecy until it is demonstrated true or false. (Or as in the case of Nostradamus working backwards from a real event and trying to find justififcation in his half arsed doggerel).

Is there any literary worth in Nostradamus by the way? Beyond the rhymes does anyone see him as ploughing a lonely artistic furrow in the prophecy business.

― Pete (Pete), Tuesday, 25 March 2003 14:05 (twenty-three years ago)

Hmm, Pinefox in drunken argument reference! I do think you are right though. Belief suggests a choice, facts do not allow you the luxury of choice (a can choose not to believe in gravity, but will be betrayed by my actions when I walk down the street acting for all the world like gravity exists).

― Pete (Pete), Tuesday, 25 March 2003 14:07 (twenty-three years ago)

Christians who are also Darwinists to thread...

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 25 March 2003 14:13 (twenty-three years ago)

If you believe in facts, a fact is a fact not a belief. If you do not believe in facts, a fact is not a fact but a belief.

― alext (alext), Tuesday, 25 March 2003 15:14 (twenty-three years ago)

But what if gravity is an incorrect explanation of something completely different that just happens to fit? What if everything we think we know is utterly wrong due a limited or complete lack of understanding about the true nature of existence?

― ChristineSH (chrissie1068), Tuesday, 25 March 2003 15:16 (twenty-three years ago)

If what ifs were spliffs we'd all be stoned.

― Pete (Pete), Tuesday, 25 March 2003 15:24 (twenty-three years ago)

This is the way I see things, Christine (see my mentalism thread).

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 25 March 2003 15:24 (twenty-three years ago)

E-Prime to thread!

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 25 March 2003 15:26 (twenty-three years ago)

If it happens to fit, I don't think we should call it an incorrect explanation - we should call it a useful one, the best we've got. I think a good example of a non-useful belief = "the true nature of existence". Haha.

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Tuesday, 25 March 2003 15:28 (twenty-three years ago)

Well, it'd make my head hurt if I got into it too much. I sort of take the attitude 'I don't know everything, maybe not anything, but it doesn't have to affect my life and I don't really need to know.'

Basic beliefs are useful in a practical sense. I have to believe I need food, or I'm trouble.

Gee, the last ep of Taken was going on about this, too! Something about life being a load of questions and no real answers. Television trying to be profound or something.

― ChristineSH (chrissie1068), Tuesday, 25 March 2003 15:31 (twenty-three years ago)

It's not a question of believing in the true nature of existence, anyway -- I have a belief that I'll never know that one. Because it's impossible. The main problem I have with religion is its attempt to answer *everything* in one very simple swoop... of course we'll never better the theory, because it's quite beyond us.

― ChristineSH (chrissie1068), Tuesday, 25 March 2003 15:34 (twenty-three years ago)

"Faith is much better than belief. Belief is when someone else does the thinking."

-- Bucky Fuller

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 25 March 2003 15:54 (twenty-three years ago)

It sounds good, but it doesn't really make sense does it? Except if you accept whatever subjective premise it's based on, which would kind of be... someone else thinking for you.

― ChristineSH (chrissie1068), Tuesday, 25 March 2003 16:04 (twenty-three years ago)

Ha ha, I let Bucky Fuller do my thinking for me!

(I'm not sure the relevance of that quote in this discussion; I just dig it.)

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 25 March 2003 16:05 (twenty-three years ago)

Anyway, I think the thing with "demonstrable fact" is that it's status as "fact" is always gonna be relative to the method used for demonstrating it. The old is-a-electron-a-particle-or-is-it-a-wave?-it-depends-on-what-method-you-use-to-measure-it thing.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 25 March 2003 16:08 (twenty-three years ago)

The Annals of improbable research showed that it's not only limited to electrons. Cars also have a strange wave-particle duality as can be demonstrated by car parks displaying signs that say "use both exits".

― SittingPretty (sittingpretty), Tuesday, 25 March 2003 16:59 (twenty-three years ago)

I think we have a problem here with the conjunction of 'belief', which imnplies some room for doubt, a choice on the basis of some justification; whereas 'fact' implies something proven, therefore not requiring belief. I think we could discuss what believing in a statement or proposition is, or what makes a statement a fact, but I think in trying to combine the two we may be in for a turbulent time.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 25 March 2003 17:59 (twenty-three years ago)

I Believe In Miracles!

― jel -- (jel), Tuesday, 25 March 2003 18:10 (twenty-three years ago)

I believe in Santa!

And I could prove it, too, with a lot of academic 'reason' and 'evidence,' but dammit, I'm thinking for myself atm, so I'll get back to you later...

― ChristineSH (chrissie1068), Tuesday, 25 March 2003 18:17 (twenty-three years ago)

I think we could discuss what believing in a statement or proposition is, or what makes a statement a fact, but I think in trying to combine the two we may be in for a turbulent time.

Get ready for the ride, Martin;>

As it boils down entirely to what the person making that statement believes, a fact is fluid, by nature: The belief may be wrong, but does that make the fact false? Depends on what that fact (the person makes his/her assumption on) is.

[Right, shutting up now before I confuse myself.]

― Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Tuesday, 25 March 2003 18:48 (twenty-three years ago)

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