so, what IS maturity anyway?

this dichotomy is a false one perpetuated by people who, clearly, hate fun, and feel guilty about it.

maturity doesn't always = boring, staid, sensible etc. Actually, the last one maybe isn't so true...

I thought they were looking down on me, not that I care, but I later heard via Mrs. Dr. C that a couple of them had told their wives that they were envious of me. Wierd.

If it does have a meaning it's hardly as some kind of conservative doctrine for the correct way of displaying you are grown up, it's more that maturity is self awareness, general awareness of those around you, I mean it shouldn't have a definition which automatically excludes certain types of acts or behaviour, it's surely about yourself and your acceptance of that rather than whether you sing in the shower or something.

I'd like to think that I have a modicum of maturity (am mature?) in some respects but it doesn't mean I have to be sensible/staid/etc all the time.

And those pissing contests DR C are quite excruciating, but to some extent do we do the same thing when discussing hard to find records/ obbscure films etc?

Anyt definition of maturity which doesn't exclude shouting out of cars at strangers (to pick the most obvious example) is bogus.

It's an illusion.

It's a fair cop.

I really have no idea what "maturity" is. As I was saying to a co-worker yesterday, most days I seem to vacillate between feeling like a 12 year-old boy and a 55 year-old man, with no inbetween. To most of my peers, the people I respect and am friends with, I'm a sellout jerk for having a corporate job that pays me well but leaves me feeling empty. To most of the people I work with, I'm a total freak who will never fit into the corporate environment as it is defined where I work. To me, it seems like the only thing "maturity" brings is added responsibility, bills to pay, etc. I try to act like a respectful, decent person - yet I see people day-in and day-out who treat their fellow humans like dirt, and yet "achieve" more than I ever will.

Nah, not weird. It's more like, "Jeez, he's actually having fun!" The envy follows from there.

Oh yes.

Next FAP, if you like.

"Mrs. Dr. C" is used in preference to 'my wife' which is too sensible and mature, 'her indoors' or 'the missus' which is a bit too geezerish, 'my other half' which is bonkers.

No. Obviously. See Jonathan Ross, Ken Dodd, that awful sqeaking comedian twat (Joe Pasquale?), Joe Pesci, Alan Ball, etcetera...

I am still working on this.

How true. It is so easy (for me) to tell whether or not a person is immature. It doesn't radiate from the person like a bad smell necessarily, but the quality of their speech and movement does give off a vibe. There is nowt wrong with having a laugh, but if they can never think about more than the designer of their shoes.....now, that's a problem.

I'm just gonna do it backwards. Soon as I turn 50 I'll cash everything in, fuck off to Bali and disappear down a wet hole of e'd-up German backpacker girls and opium.

Feelin it today tbh bc my roommate is out of town for a couple of days and living alone is so amazing--I've never actually lived alone before, and there's no point I can look forward to in this city when I'll be able to.

Although I've grown a lot in the last year and started to tackle a lot of issues I'd long dealt with but not attempted to confront, I just feel so . . . young.

Aaaaalso remember that certain lyfe challenges stall your rate of change in certain ways? Like addiction, for starters, but also I think probably some kinds of psych issues hold us back? Like when you're wrestling with something, it can block whatever would normally be coming along after that. Which is so individual that it's not even useful to call anything "normal" probably.

i've been feeling very similar to ENBB's post upthread. i think it's natural to feel this way sometimes, but like they say, it's not productive trying to compare one's life achievements to those of others.

At least for me, having role models is actually incredibly important and I can't emphasize enough: find a community of weird/different ppl and dig in. Otherwise I find there are v few influences to counteract the prevailing societal message that my life is deficient.

I have actually thought about exactly that. That might definitely be a part of it and it's really interesting to me to think about. Like I spent so much time focused on other things that some sort of development might have been delayed? Tbh though I don't think I'm immature really just that when I compare myself to some other people my age or when I think about what I might of thought my life would look like at my age it's just different. I think I need to stop comparing myself to other people. I think this most recent bout of "WTF is wrong with me?" was brought on by realizing that this woman I was working with yesterday (MD, homeowner, mother) is four years younger than I am. I would have put her at least at my age but probably a little older. Realizing how old she was just kind of shook me. Not that I want a house in the suburbs mind you. Mostly she just seemed so adult in comparison. And it's not like I'm some immature buffoon - I can be very adult at times. This is a hard subject for me to be very articulate about so early in the morning.

x-post - I think that's prob very good advice IO, ty. :)

"I have actually thought about exactly that" was in reference to this comment "Aaaaalso remember that certain lyfe challenges stall your rate of change in certain ways? Like addiction, for starters, but also I think probably some kinds of psych issues hold us back?" - Sorry. I started this post and then got pulled away.

realizing that this woman I was working with yesterday (MD, homeowner, mother) is four years younger than I am. I would have put her at least at my age but probably a little older. Realizing how old she was just kind of shook me. Not that I want a house in the suburbs mind you. Mostly she just seemed so adult in comparison.

The socio-cultural messages we get all the time reinforce to her that this is normal, that she has made choices that are in line with people around her. (Everyone feels like a freak sometimes on the inside but let's be real here, that is not objectively true for many of us.)

The problem is that we all get those same messages, but since they're EVERYWHERE, they start to seem like the water we're swimming in, you get me? It's important to see alternatives represented too.

Maybe maturity or cultural markers of it are overrated anyway.
Yes.

I think I need to stop comparing myself to other people.
Immediately! I think this is the source of the bad feeling tbh.

Generally speaking I'm not concerned about this ("maturity", milestones) at all -- I don't have a lot of people to look to for role-models but I have met a few people in the last few years who give me some hope. Few of them are like me demographically and I do feel somewhat out of step with my peers/old friends, but I don't feel bad about it. Just different. It sucks to not relate to what my old friends are talking about, but there's nothing I can do about that aside from becoming a different person and I don't feel that would be a good idea tbh.

there's nothing I can do about that aside from becoming a different person and I don't feel that would be a good idea tbh.

^^The search for truth, realized.

No, I don't want to be a different person at all! OK, I will try stop comparing. It's hard but I'm gonna give it a shot.

It helps me to remember how bad things have been at various points--and how I promised I would get into situations that brought me so much anxiety/anger/sadness again. If I succeed at mostly being happy and my own definition of "productive," then I'm a success!!

Defining your own success is v impt imo

*WOULD NEVER

I still feel a lot less accomplished and mature than a lot of people my age.

My first question would be whether the accomplishments of these other people are ones you have been consciously striving after. If not, then it would be more revealing to examine the accomplishments you are working toward, rather than those which have no real connection to you.

My second question would be whether the accomplishments you've worked hard for are eluding you. If they are that may not be an indication of immaturity so much as the difficulty of the goals you've chosen or due to circumstances you cannot control.

My guess is immaturity is not a real big problem in your life, but if, upon close examination, you decide that you've been frittering away your life, shying away from what it would take to get where you most want to go, making shallow excuses for your failures, and shirking responsibilities you secretly know you ought to accept, then you'd be very justified in thinking an insufficiency of maturity was behind your discontent. Which makes it a perfect opportunity to take a step toward greater maturity. Go for it!

well, i always thought i had something to do with taking responsibilty for your actions, and yourself etc, but according to my family it is really about showing no emotions other than 'publicly acceptable' ones.
to me, that is just an unreal expectation, as well as plain silly.
― donna (donna), Wednesday, March 26, 2003 12:17 PM (11 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This is so great

i agree with aimless.

richard feynman said something related to science, which he specifically said wasn't a criticism of human beings, but i could never not apply it to life in general: the first principle is that you must not fool yourself--and you are the easiest person to fool.

being honest with yourself (and yourself only) is a good thing. (personally, i don't think this means you should be 100% honest to every person all the time--just to yourself.)

like aimless says, close examination of your life. philosophy helped me with my life so i have all these philosophy quotes running through my head right now, which i won't write so as not to sound corny :)

but assessing what you want in life, whether it is feasible or not, and adjusting your goals to what is feasible now is something i have done. acceptance of what you are capable of for now... patience. maybe the end goal is not feasible right now, but other goals are, and little by little, you can get to that end goal. or maybe that end goal was/is never possible, but it's important that you find something rewarding in your life on the way and live it happily and, in my personal life, calmly.

it's not a competition and yeah there are those who live as if it were, but those people are poison and do not need to be in my life, personally.

just my two cents

great post Aimless

FWIW even though I only know you as some pixels on the internet you don't seem particularly "immature" to me. But I get what you're saying, and I'm 45 years old. My life certainly is not where I would have said it would be if you had asked me at 18 or 20 or 25 where it would be. Even though I've been happily married for 24 years, own a house, make enough to be fairly comfortable, have done some travel, etc.

A lot of it is the result of my own bad choices in life, particularly in regards to education and career. Some of it is the pressure of cultural markers; e.g., many of my peers had children very early in their marriages and now have kids that are in high school and doing very well. And while I never wanted children and don't feel bad that I never did, I still think, "Man, all my friends have raised these kids who are good people, what the hell have *I* done?!"

My two cents as a forty-something woman without kids: many folks assume (some consciously, others unconsciously) that maturity happens when you have created (or adopted, or fostered, etc.) immature ppl a.k.a. kids. Given that I will not be doing the raising of kids thing, I've gotta just not be concerned about this particular "condition" for maturity that is so pervasive that it affects even me, the childless-by-choice person.

And while I never wanted children and don't feel bad that I never did, I still think, "Man, all my friends have raised these kids who are good people, what the hell have *I* done?!"

i'm not sure what good can come from asking yourself that question in that way. unless you're looking for reasons to feel bad, in which case asking this is a very efficient way to get there.

a more useful thing to ask is "what do i want to and what needs to happen in order for me to do it?" challenging yourself in whatever way you see fit is a sign of maturity imo. for some people, that's the trad path of raising a family. for others, it's something else. i dunno. personally i'm not old enough to look back and evaluate yet because i'm not done doing things.

want to DO
oops

Off topic but making themselves feel bad is what PhilD's do best.

maybe you should try to stop doing that!

i didn't mean that to sound aggro although i do think that habitually thinking thoughts that make one's self feel bad is a surefire recipe for being unhappy with one's life. like seriously what's the point

And while I never wanted children and don't feel bad that I never did, I still think, "Man, all my friends have raised these kids who are good people, what the hell have *I* done?!"

I don't think anyone has said this yet (I hope) but I think the reason people feel bad about this is because even if you don't want what these people have, you envy what looks like a more substantial life journey.
I don't want to be married, I don't want children, I don't want a car, I don't want a "proper" job, but I do want substantial change that these people have went through.

xp My answers belong in the "dealing w/depression" thread, but like I said, off-topic

I tend to think you develop whatever "maturity" the situation requires of you. So if you want to have kids, have them, and have the attitude that you're going to do what you need to do to be a good parent to your own standards. You develop the maturity you need for that as you go, you don't just say "now I'm mature enough to have kids." Obviously there are limits to this -- most 18-year-olds are probably too immature to raise children in modern society. At the same time, even the 18-year-old who commits to it will develop the maturity they need.

If you don't want to have kids, it seems fruitless to compare yourself to people who have them and imagine that they have some objective "maturity" that you don't have, they're just on a different path from you.

Also it can just as much be a sign of "maturity" to be able to recognize and articulate exactly why you don't want kids, and to be confident in that decision.

I dont ever wanna feel mature, maturity is what makes me walk like an aul fella the rest of the day after I play football at lunch

My first question would be whether the accomplishments of these other people are ones you have been consciously striving after. If not, then it would be more revealing to examine the accomplishments you are working toward, rather than those which have no real connection to you.

― Aimless, Friday, 6 February 2015 17:25 (3 hours ago)

this is mostly the important thing here

It's odd that I've never seen all these things associated with the word "maturity".
I've always seen "adult" and "grown-up" as words for the silly consensus idea. Maybe just a difference in region.
But I always felt more positive towards "maturity" because it doesn't imply a goal that is to be maintained in a solid state, it's about evolving and improving that never ends until you're dead.

I got married young and didn't learn to drive until 9 years later. I thought I would finally feel grown up once I had a car - but I felt like I was still 17. I have a mortgage and now a baby and even a semi senior job and I still feel immature as fuck. Other mums seem so much more clued up than me but I'm happy just making my own way.

Btw no-one should ever feel bad about not wanting/having kids. There is nothing inherently mature about deciding to be someone's permanent servant.

maturity update maturity is probably an input to my chest pains ever since the last post :(

probably just wind

you should do a really loud fart

he can't turn his self-effacement into one.

So many good points! Too early! Must think and have coffee and come back.

This quote has always stuck with me about maturiy

“Maturity, the way I understand it,” he told me, “is knowing what your limitations are.”

He wasn’t far from Bokonon in defining maturity. “Maturity,” Bokonon tells us, “is a bitter disappointment for which no remedy exists, unless laughter can be said to remedy anything.”

This is the other quote that has stuck with me about maturiy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7l5ZeVVoCA

I think RAG's point about maturity v. adulthood is v important. I'm going to think about that for a bit. Also, lol.

Maybe I'm having an early mid-life crisis. I keep thinking about being 37 and how I don't feel what I think 37 is supposed to feel like. At all. Granted, I have no idea what that means but somehow in my head I still feel 21?

Maturity is at least two staged:

- first stage: you gain some sense of what you want to want to do in life, rather than necessarily doing what you've been expected to do

- second stage: having a hopefully balanced perspective on how it is working out

(Or: "Saturn Returns, maaan")

"- first stage: you gain some sense of what you want to want to do in life, rather than necessarily doing what you've been expected to do"

This is important too. Did I mention that my father mentions something about me buying a house (or condo whatever) literally every time I speak to him and has for the past three years? I don't even want a house. :(

if he wants you to have a house tell him to buy one for you

I think I just might do that next time.

The thing is he'll probably say ok and offer me one. In florida. Next to theirs. Shit. Maybe I won't do that. ;)

In florida. Next to theirs.

A wise child who knows her own father.

Altho for me it mostly manifests as not having the things that financial success allows you--living alone like an adult, in a nice place where everything works.

Coincidentally I went to the cinema and watched an old Eric Rohmer film. For the first 30 mins or so of Full Moon in Paris I thought that I was watching this thread, with the main character pretty much coming out with things like the above and trying to work to dismiss those notions of maturity through. The main character does find herself with that freedom, no spoilers so I won't say more.

What I hear about Ferdydurke by Gombrowicz, supposed to be some kind of attack on an idea of maturity? Probably won't read it for a long time.

I read it a long time ago and can't remember that much about it. I suppose there are lots and lots of examples.