Is saying what you think a good thing?

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It's clear from what Lisa Jeynes said both inside and outside the BB house that her self-esteem is based to a large degree on her belief that she says what she thinks. I've often heard people asserting the same thing recently - I say what I think - as if it makes them particularly honest or brave. In my opinion it makes them rude. What do you think?

― thoth (Jake Proudlock), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 12:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Saying what you think is a good thing, to a certain extent. In Lisa's case, she really had nothing to say. She had a go at people because they didn't welcome her with open arms. It's a game show, get over it. I think if you are going to 'say what you think' you need to be sure that you really do want the audience to hear what you are about to say. You also need to have the blessing of tact.

― Pinkpanther (Pinkpanther), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 12:24 (twenty-two years ago)

It is not inherently a good thing, no. Most people should just shut up, most of the time. But if you have to say SOMETHING, it could be seen as better to say what you think than lie. I personally would still choose to lie out of politeness sometimes though.

― Archel (Archel), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 12:27 (twenty-two years ago)

It depends on the circumstances. A lot of times people talk about "saying what they think" when what they really mean to do is to justify rude and ugly behavior.

― Larcole (Nicole), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 12:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Intelligence/Integrity/Whatever is NOT about always saying what you think. It is about knowing WHEN to say what you think, and knowing when to KEEP TACTFULLY QUIET.

― kate (kate), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 12:31 (twenty-two years ago)

ppeople who say: "you get what you see/i call it as i see it/i speak my mind/i call a spade a spade" are generally arseholes. whay the fuck should i care what they think anyway? thinking their opinions are so important that they have to be voiced at the expense of others' feelings/comfort points to a huge amount of arrogance. it really annoys me.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 12:31 (twenty-two years ago)

LARCOLE IS SO OTM THAT SHE'S GOT QUARTERS SHOOTING OUT OF HER NOSE

I fucking HATE it when people say amazingly rude stuff out of the blue and then go, "Oh, I just tell it like it is/I say what I think/I'm always up-front with people/[some variation of self-justifying excuse-making for complete lack of social skills]!" If you're going down that route, at least admit that you're being an ass.

(I will admit, though, that major points are granted for people who do this in an amusing manner, ie pretty much all of my real-life friends. It's such a fine, hypocritical line I walk.)

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 12:35 (twenty-two years ago)

ppeople who say: "you get what you see/i call it as i see it/i speak my mind/i call a spade a spade" are generally arseholes.

I like people who say what they think but leave room for argument. Usually when someone voices their opinions like that they don't want to hear what anyone else really thinks. They just want to be admired for their boldness, not their insight. It's such a conversation killer.

― django (django), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 12:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Blunt people tend to wear bluntness as a virtuous badge on their sleeves and the less blunt are discreet enough not to boast one way or the other so it gets presented as a virtue even if it's not one.

It comes up on ILX occasionally - somebody says something rude and then justifies it, often by claiming that they're the only one to "have the guts" to say it.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 12:39 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree, bluntness is def not a virtue & shouldnt be paraded as one. All that bollox about I say what I see etc is a load of crap, it just illustrates that you do not have the intelligence to see when your opinion is not required!

― Pinkpanther (Pinkpanther), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 12:42 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.qwertyuiop.co.uk/gs/atoz/programmes/c/catchphrase/catchphrase.jpg
Say what you see!

― RickyT (RickyT), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 12:53 (twenty-two years ago)

A twat? (See how hypocritical I am? God, I hate me.)

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:05 (twenty-two years ago)

you're not the only one who hates you, dan ;)

see that was rude right there. but i'm too much of a twat to give a shit (that's not amusing, either).

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:19 (twenty-two years ago)

While I do agree that 'being up-front' can be an excuse for rudeness, honesty can also be refreshing. If something is bothering me, for example, I always like to confront it head-on no matter how awkward or embarrassing that might be. That doesn't mean I do it in a rude or abrasive manner, but I do prefer to clear up any problems or misunderstandings rather than bottle things up. I don't like to stew over things, so from my point of view 'saying what I think' is definitely a good thing. It doesn't mean I am rude to anyone in the process though (well, I hope I'm not, anyway)

― C J (C J), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:37 (twenty-two years ago)

what cj said. someone that is upfront all the time is not something I'd like but sometimes it is necessary (or like django sez, leave room for argument).

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, there is a big difference between saying what you think within a debate, or when your honest input is asked for or needed, and saying what you think with reference only to your own ego.

― Archel (Archel), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Julio, the problem is defining "necessary". A lot of excessively blunt people seem to think that any time they have a negative thought or idea they have to voice it immediately, when really it would be better left unsaid.

― Larcole (Nicole), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 13:54 (twenty-two years ago)

The weird thing about Lisa was that she made that big song and dance with the rosettes of going on about how welcome everyone had made her feel. I know that was early on, but she was already complaining in the diary room. I wish the BB producers had shown that clip right after one of her saying how she always said what she thought, in the same way they stiched up Steph.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 14:17 (twenty-two years ago)

There is an alternative to being blunt and bottling up which is just to think 'ah fuck it, not important either way'. Why give people the satisfaction of letting them know what you think of them?

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 14:21 (twenty-two years ago)

The point isn't so much that you shouldn't be honest with people as it is that you should be able to figure out when you're using honesty as a weapon and stop trying to pre-emptively hurt other people's feelings as a defense mechanism.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 14:29 (twenty-two years ago)

''Julio, the problem is defining "necessary". A lot of excessively blunt people seem to think that any time they have a negative thought or idea they have to voice it immediately, when really it would be better left unsaid.''

true. 'excessively blunt ppl' will not just say what they think when ''necassary''.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:02 (twenty-two years ago)

what's so great about other people's feelings?

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:05 (twenty-two years ago)

fuck all yall blunt hatas!

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:23 (twenty-two years ago)

(that said most people who do the "I'm just telling it like it is" thing are really just rationalising assholism).

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Is "saying what you think" a bad thing EXCEPT when it's directed towards some widely agreed-upon strawman who you know won't fight back, like, oh, Geir Hongro?

(Not that I'm defending Hongro here; I'm just wondering how if all y'all are so compassionate and considerate and not-rude you can rationalize picking on him the way you do.)

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:34 (twenty-two years ago)

nichole and dan never did as i recall.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:45 (twenty-two years ago)

don't be so high school jbr

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 16:01 (twenty-two years ago)

People treating Geir like he doesn't exist in reality and they can just fuck around like he's a bot: totally dud. Nicole and Dan wouldn't have said shit about Geir because they have "known" him as long as I have. He's a nice guy!

― Ally (mlescaut), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 16:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes but he is obstinate beyond all sense and reason.

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 16:34 (twenty-two years ago)

There are people who I find obnoxiously single-minded and psychotic on certain subjects far more important/upsetting than the Lightning Seeds. I do not start threads about how much of a dick I think they are or reply to every single post they make in a sarcastic fashion and I don't think it's right to do it to Geir all the time either.

― Ally (mlescaut), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 16:37 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think I did do that and besides, he's gone now.

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 16:40 (twenty-two years ago)

No, I'm not accusing you in specific of doing it, just in general.

― Ally (mlescaut), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 16:41 (twenty-two years ago)

The problem is, (many) people can spot insincerity a mile away. What does it really mean to "say what you think"? A lot of people say clearly what they think by going out of their way to do the apparent opposite.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 16:41 (twenty-two years ago)

The key is to just ignore people and be really super exuberant about the people you totally love and then everyone confuses that for exuberance about everyone.

― Ally (mlescaut), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 16:42 (twenty-two years ago)

It's peoples right to say what they want, there's nothing wrong with saying what you think if you feel it's necessary. There are mitigating circumstances for everything and incriminating ones for everything too.

The problem with people who say "I speak my mind/call it as it is" is that most just say it because it's become so fetishised and they think it sounds super dooper when really it's fairly meaningless and throwaway.

How many people who are often politely quiet wish they could say what they thought more? I know I do.

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 19:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Being honest is one good thing. Being polite is another. Being kind and considerate also. These things don't always pull in the same direction. There are no absolutes. I am all in favour of lying if it is kinder. I learnt very early on that a woman asking me if she looks good in something does not want to hear "it emphasises your big arse" and my saying it, even if it is what I think, is simply mean. On the other hand, encouraging her to wear something that does not suit her is not good either. This is where politeness and tact come in. I find I rarely lose sleep about not being honest enough - I am a pretty outspoken person, but I wouldn't want to offend and upset too much, so I do hold back lots of things.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 19:40 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah for real, I value my own opinion way less than other people's.

― g--ff c-nn-n (gcannon), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 19:42 (twenty-two years ago)

when exactly did it become such a buzz idea, big brother is proof enough that it has surely?

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 19:44 (twenty-two years ago)

SILENCE=DEATH

― Orbit (Orbit), Thursday, 17 July 2003 03:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Ah, but grasshopper, you can learn more from being silent than from talking.

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 17 July 2003 03:29 (twenty-two years ago)

and then you die.

― Orbit (Orbit), Thursday, 17 July 2003 03:32 (twenty-two years ago)

I know very few people who actually say what they think. None, actually. But I know plenty of people who talk about being the kind of person who says what they think. Overheard at work, on any given day: "So I said to her, I'm not like that. If I don't like you, girl, you're gonna know about it. I say what I think. That's just how I am." This is always said in a fairly agitated tone of voice. The speaker feels he or she has been wronged somehow, and is now retelling the conversation to another person with him- or herself as the hero, and is implicitly accusing the villian in the story of being wildly disingenuous. In my ears, it rings like the popular refrain of the out of control teenager on Jennie Jones -- "I do what I want!"

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Thursday, 17 July 2003 03:37 (twenty-two years ago)

NLP works frightening well, too, but that doesn't make it enlightened.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Thursday, 17 July 2003 03:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Whoah! Wrong thread!

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Thursday, 17 July 2003 03:39 (twenty-two years ago)

i thought i'd gone mad for a sec

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Thursday, 17 July 2003 03:49 (twenty-two years ago)

and then you realized it actually was a brief moment of sanity

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 17 July 2003 03:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Being blunt might sometimes be an excuse for rudeness, but taking exception to bluntness is just a sign of the weak-minded, sheep mentality of society, where everyone is expected to make the 'right' noises to get a big score in the game.

Fuck the game.

To be blunt.

― ChristineSH (chrissie1068), Thursday, 17 July 2003 20:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes, I'm sure it has everything to do with being a sheep who wants to play society's game and nothing at all to do with being a human being who dislikes having to fend off potshots on his/her self-esteem.

I'm just as quick to dismiss society as being chock-full of idiots as the next person, but come on!

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 17 July 2003 20:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes, but people who do it have a responsibility to not think stupid things.

― A Nairn (moretap), Thursday, 17 July 2003 20:43 (twenty-two years ago)

It's not an issue of self-esteem. The most damage I've received to my self-esteem has been a result of DIShonesty and generally duplicitous behaviour. If someone called me ugly, I'd not be bothered, as it happens to be true... but if someone crawls up my ass to my face but calls me an asshole behind my back, well, that hurts. Get it over with, call me an asshole to my fucking face and we're dead square, right? I don't need smarmy falseness. If anyone thinks they do, they're living in a tremendously shallow groove. Too bad.

― ChristineSH (chrissie1068), Thursday, 17 July 2003 22:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Being polite != being two-faced, you know.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 17 July 2003 22:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Ronan, if you wish you could say what you think more then I am sure other people do to. Eg there is nothing more annoying than going to the videoshop with someone who will not commit to whether or not they want to see a certain film.

Otherwise, I agree with most of whats been said: saying what you think is fine/but you don't have to say everything you think. This is why people are not telepathic.

― isadora (isadora), Thursday, 17 July 2003 22:58 (twenty-two years ago)

In some cases, yes. But to reduce the issue to that point is really, incredibly insecure, you know. And I speak as someone who is profoundly insecure. I just realised that people lying to me wouldn't really do me any good.

Don't ask me how I am if you don't care. Don't wish me a nice day if you don't care. Don't tell me I'm intelligent and interesting if you don't mean it. Simple. We don't need insincere, empty words to validate our existence. Eventually, we can't tell the difference when it's for real. But, maybe we don't care. Maybe we need a 'civilised' veneer to conceal what we really are.

Too scary to consider, that!

― ChristineSH (chrissie1068), Thursday, 17 July 2003 22:59 (twenty-two years ago)

People aren't telepathic because it serves absolutely no useful biological function. We'd like to be telepathic because we're obsessed with the futile.

― ChristineSH (chrissie1068), Thursday, 17 July 2003 23:02 (twenty-two years ago)

But people usually don't think in words, and it's hard to speak feelings or images. I would love to be able to say what I think, but my interpretation skills are just not good enough.

― A Nairn (moretap), Thursday, 17 July 2003 23:44 (twenty-two years ago)

i DON'T agree with the idea of people saying out loud every stupid thought that comes into their head. i don't agree with being honest at the expense of other peoples feelings - generally, though there are contexts when i'm not afraid to tell people exactly what i think of them and its usually when they show little or no concern to how i feel. but i'm also with christine. people acting twofaced aren't fun, and i find that kind of behaviour both weak and patronising at the same time.

― di smith (lucylurex), Thursday, 17 July 2003 23:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I honestly don't care (beyond maybe a few minutes pique) what people who aren't close friends think of me or say about me behind my back. I'm keen on their being nice to me to my face though because it makes for an easier, simpler life. And I extend the same courtesy to them.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Friday, 18 July 2003 06:45 (twenty-two years ago)

like so many things, it depends on the situation. sometimes saying precisely what you think is useful because by not doing so, you find yerself in some shit that you wouldn't have been in had you not kept yer yap shut. for example, you find out that you've "impressed" a potential employer and/or loved one, but somehow you find out that yer not really what they're looking for.

still, that doesn't mean that i want to hear some random stranger "speaking his/her mind" about anything. i couldn't care less.

― Tad (llamasfur), Friday, 18 July 2003 06:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Ricky says you have to GIVE respect to GET respect

― dork 2, Friday, 18 July 2003 07:23 (twenty-two years ago)

No. Because it's not just the content of what you say that determines the meaning of what you say and what you say is interpreted as if this is understood and it's no good trying to go against this kind of convention. Actually, I think it's more than convention.

― youn, Friday, 18 July 2003 07:55 (twenty-two years ago)

When people say "If someone has a problem with me they should just tell me to their face" I think "Oh don't be so egotistical" - I mean maybe not everyone even HAS an opinion on you, or certainly not one strong enough to merit some big drama queen showdown. Being vaguely and offhandedly acknowledged is the natural human state of things I think and one that more people should be comfortable with!

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Friday, 18 July 2003 08:01 (twenty-two years ago)

maybe they don't want a big drama queen showdown. i read that sentence as "someone is acting a little strange towards me and i want to know why so it can be sorted out". i don't think thats egotistical, just wanting to make life more comfortable for the two/more parties involved. i'm speaking purely in the context of the people knowing each other well. and perhaps some people who say that do want a drama. i wouldn't know, its not something i would say.

― di smith (lucylurex), Friday, 18 July 2003 08:19 (twenty-two years ago)

maybe i'm misinterpreting peoples responses here and i really agree that some things should be kept to oneself but i also strongly feel that communication is important. there should be leeway for cultural difference. some people are brought up outspoken, and if others think thats gauche then there is DEFINITELY a need for communication.

― di smith (lucylurex), Friday, 18 July 2003 08:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah when the people know each other well I think it's fair enough to expect some level of honesty but a lot of the people who play the bluntness card in my experience are doing it to/aboute people they barely know.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Friday, 18 July 2003 08:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Christine, if you think someone asking "How are you?" is two-faced hypocrisy intended to cut down your self-esteem, I think you are a borderline sociopath who could really use some intense psychological counselling. Seriously.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 18 July 2003 09:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Since you didn't include the 'if you don't care' part in your quote, your comment doesn't make any sense. I think you're being a borderline twat to do that. Seriously.

― ChristineSH (chrissie1068), Friday, 18 July 2003 12:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, but you do (or have in the past) give the impression that you would treat any compliment as necessarily insincere.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Friday, 18 July 2003 12:32 (twenty-two years ago)

The entire vibe you're giving off is that anyone who behaves in a polite manner towards you is being two-faced; the "if you don't care" came across as redundant to me because you aren't giving me the impression that you believe that anyone actually DOES care. That entire post reads as a big, "Fuck off, I don't want to be bothered with polite people."

I apologize for misreading you in that, and also for misjudging how you would react to me bluntly stating how I was reacting to your posts. I wasn't intending to be rude; I was just calling it as I saw it.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 18 July 2003 12:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Civilisation is in a bad enough fix as it is without people shunning polite interaction because it's not 'honest'. I like having a bit of social fluff to shield me from the sharp edges of the world. I like people to say How are you? etc to me and I dont mind too much whether they have actually been genuinely thinking about my wellbeing in a serious way beforehand.

― Archel (Archel), Friday, 18 July 2003 12:37 (twenty-two years ago)

It depends on what is about. If a person is being abused, for example, they should say something. If they are being asked "How do you like my hair-do?" they should say "I like it fine".

― Orbit (Orbit), Saturday, 19 July 2003 00:02 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.cleanair.ca/images/silence-poster.jpg

― Dada, Saturday, 19 July 2003 00:05 (twenty-two years ago)

god forbid we be complicit with bad hair

― Orbit (Orbit), Saturday, 19 July 2003 00:24 (twenty-two years ago)

I learnt very early on that a woman asking me if she looks good in something does not want to hear "it emphasises your big arse"

I would love to have footage of the moment Martin learnt this.

― N. (nickdastoor), Saturday, 19 July 2003 11:44 (twenty-two years ago)

i feel sorry for Ben Affleck

― stevem (blueski), Saturday, 19 July 2003 12:19 (twenty-two years ago)

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