Are Iraqi insurgents justified in firing on coalition forces?

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After all, the coalition is an occupying force which invaded the country, and Bush/Blair have made it quite clear that they'll be there for years to come. Despite all the talk of democracy, nothing much has happened on that front, and I seriously doubt the U.S. would allow an Iraqi government to be elected if it thought that such a gov't would tell it to remove its troops immediately. Hence, all the talk of freedom and democracy is a bit of a smokescreen. The saddamite regime is gone, but the Americans will continue to occupy the country until they set up a pro-American regime, with some kind of democratic figleaf. Under those circumstances, why isn't fighting the Americans justifiable, in the same way that the French resistance attacked German occupying forces?

Gerald The Mouse, Friday, 9 January 2004 17:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Killing people is bad.

Americans, Iraqis, whoever it's just bad, expected under circumstances which are sometimes avoidable ie if you dont want guerrilas killing your troops dont invade a country.

Jarlr'mai (jarlrmai), Friday, 9 January 2004 17:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Personally, I don't think that the insurgents should be firing on coalition forces, because I don't believe that the talk of freedom and democracy is really a smokescreen. I believe that Iraq is already a more liberal and democratic place than it was under Saddam Hussein, and that in a few years time, it will be even more so.

o. nate (onate), Friday, 9 January 2004 17:39 (twenty-two years ago)

When a country has invaded your country by extreme force, under false pretenses, and brought mayhem and war, by all means YES, oust the invaders. It doesn't matter whether you supported Hussein and the Ba'ath Party at all, land and the sovereign nation are far more important. Iraq hadn't been suffering a civil war, it was a fairly unified nation (unlike the crisis in the Balkans) and the US and UK invaded illegally, without a UN mandate.

Germany and France are smelling like roses right now.

The US was terrified of Ho Chi Minh, but he extolled nationalism, not marxism, and that was why the people of Vietnam won. The people of Iraq will 'win' too - there's no way they can't - The US/Uk will leave, and I don't think there will be a western democracy, but an Islamic government put in place.

andy, Friday, 9 January 2004 17:50 (twenty-two years ago)

I was going to answer this with a serious response but you know what it would be a complete waste of my fucking time.

TOMBOT, Friday, 9 January 2004 17:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Jarlr'mai echo's my sentiments more or less.

Ed (dali), Friday, 9 January 2004 18:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Germany and France are smelling like roses right now.

This is hilarious.

bnw (bnw), Friday, 9 January 2004 18:15 (twenty-two years ago)

in·sur·gent. adj
1. Rising in revolt against established authority, especially a government.
2. Rebelling against the leadership of a political party.

co·a·li·tion. n.
1. An alliance, especially a temporary one, of people, factions, parties, or nations.
2. A combination into one body; a union.

I can't see how these terms apply to the current situation.

may pang (maypang), Friday, 9 January 2004 18:25 (twenty-two years ago)

How is not a coalition then?

bnw (bnw), Friday, 9 January 2004 18:30 (twenty-two years ago)

OOOOOOOOOOOO WORDS!

ModJ (ModJ), Friday, 9 January 2004 18:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes. Resistance to an army that has invaded your home falls among the many situations that conventional morality recognizes as a "just cause" for killing people. The fact that the USA pretends it is not an invasion force and that all resistors are "terrorists" is a lot of soapsuds (to use a polite term). So far, the vast majority of the targets attacked by the resistors have been military.

In terms of practical politics, only a minority of Iraqis have a practical reason for resistance right now, mostly Baathists. The resistors have done the collaborators a big favor by forcing the US government to announce a short timetable for handing over power to some form of Iraqi government. When it has been proved (as it shall be next July) that the timetable was no more than a ploy and a hoax, and the US still holds effective power over the Iraqi state, then it will be time for the Shiites to make their power move, through massive public demonstrations and strikes.

Aimless, Friday, 9 January 2004 18:36 (twenty-two years ago)

This is hilarious.

you're funny too.

DV (dirtyvicar), Friday, 9 January 2004 18:36 (twenty-two years ago)

well, if the u.s. were to invade canada i'm quite sure i'd be killing as many of the occupying troops + causing as much carnage as possible until my country was free.
whatever free is.
one country's freedom fighter is anothers terrorist.
i feel for the troops - they're there on the premise they're there doing the right thing + are now stuck there indefinitely. + the folks attaching them i'm quite sure feel what they're doing is the right thing - making sure their country is free to chose it's own government and manage it's own resources.

sorry - that's a giant non answer.

dyson (dyson), Friday, 9 January 2004 18:37 (twenty-two years ago)

I just hate seeing that word as it relates to the US and 40,000 British soldiers or however many they've contributed to this war. It's really just a term they're using to conjure up memories of more noble World War II alliances and I really don't see the need to use it here to describe what is essentially an American invasion.

That is all. (x-post)

may pang (maypang), Friday, 9 January 2004 18:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Dyson OTM.

may pang (maypang), Friday, 9 January 2004 18:42 (twenty-two years ago)

True enough, but if we're playing the "does it fit the dictionary definition?" game, then, yes, it is a coalition. And there are dead troops from countries not called America or Britain to prove it.

bnw (bnw), Friday, 9 January 2004 18:52 (twenty-two years ago)

i agree with use of both those terms myself.
it's when the invasion is referred to as a "liberation" that i get irked.

dyson (dyson), Friday, 9 January 2004 18:58 (twenty-two years ago)

1. well, using it specifically in terms of iraq is obviously emotive, as people on both sides of the argument here have strong feelings.

for me, i think, that whenever the forces of one country occupy the territory of another there is going to be bad feeling. even among those that consider the occupying force as liberators, eventually there is going to come the time of "hang on, you are still here". being ruled by another country or coalition has never gone down well, and the interim period when it is accepted is often a lot shorter than people imagine (and probably shorter than what is required)

whether it is justified is a difficult question to answer, (and i think a way round this problem has been to couch the 'native insurgents' also as foreign agitators, which may well be very true).

its a lot more palatable to imagine unrest as being perpetrated by foreign structures than it is to think of them as locals (whatever the situation). because if it is the latter, you are left in an uncomfortable predicament, namely that these insurgents must be defeated (because you are then left with going after the very people you are supposed to be protecting/liberating)

this, of course, is a very modern predicament, because i think the idea of war as a moral endeavour is still quite new (at least war as a non-religious moral endeavour).

2. considering its foreign policy, i dont think france is any position to consider itself smelling of roses.

gareth (gareth), Friday, 9 January 2004 19:03 (twenty-two years ago)

I like how they always say the "outsiders" have snuck in through either Iran or Syria and never any of the other neighbouring "peace-loving" countries.

may pang (maypang), Friday, 9 January 2004 19:08 (twenty-two years ago)

like the saintly saudi arabia¡

dyson (dyson), Friday, 9 January 2004 19:17 (twenty-two years ago)


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