where is the counterculture?

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Hi! I'm writing an article about the way in which the current youth generation behaves when in comparison to previous ones. I guess what it's really getting at is that there is little counterculture among those aged between 14-19 at the moment. I am led to wonder what my generation (and those slightly younger than me) will be remembered for.
The article is in it's very early stages, I've literally written a sub-skeletal plan but I was hoping it might stimulate some discussion here and maybe people could give me some feedback/ideas i may have not covered.
I feel it's important that young people be a bit rebellious - it kindof scares me that people seem to want to just go clubbing or watch telly. I'm only 23 and I sound like an old man but the amount of media bombardment has risen so fast in the last ten years that I feel people should be more aware of how it can affect the mind. Ramble ramble... anyway, here are my cryptic notes, what you reckon?

1. Sex drugs, rocknroll.
- traditional, classic combination
- represents all things that is anti-authoritarian.
- Teddy boys, punks, mods, hippies, skinheads, ravers etc.
2. Who will represent the current generation?
- great govt botherers of the early 21st century?
- Current contingent represented and recognised by the media and most people:
- CLUBBERS – enjoy going to clubs, loud music, drinking, high entrance fees, dress codes, nanny state (bouncers), conformist, apolitical, consumerist, herd mentality. Tony Blair’s wet dream – let’s lock em up in a big dark room and charge them loads of money. When people complain that the kids are bored, we’ll build a new club. Sorted.
- ‘TWEENAGERS – 8-12 yr olds who aspire to be 15-18 year olds. This age-band has never before been so consumer orientated. They stopped spending their pocket money on sweets and toys and now buy clothes, skate-boards, make-up, cds. Growing up faster. Great – a new booming industry and we can blame the parents or MTV or something.
- STUDENTS – have always existed, but gone is the image of the government grant work dodger with time on his hands to smash the system. It is the parents who are against student loans, not the students – to them it’s a free pass to the bar – they’ll earn it back later if they study hard, so why bother about long boring conversations about politics.
- NU-METAL FANS – flashy, fashionable, middle-class take on teenage angst. An acceptable blend of hip-hop and hard rock. Christian bands like P.O.D. Mentioned on Golden Grahams ad. The name “Nu-Metal” reaks of press/marketing speak. Scene promotes disillusionment and apathy. Rejects anti-corporate, anti-fashion shit laid down by the grunge bands. A.D.I.D.A.S.
3. Generalisation to say no-one wants to smash the system any more or that teen rebellion no longer happens.
- Free party scene is bigger than ever before
- Protests against the G8 etc in UK and Europe.
- Few but those directly related to these raves/protests are aware that they are happening. Sure, there’s the odd dead donkey newsreel about a protest in London, but these things happen every day, and frankly it doesn’t bother many people.
- News is happier sedating it’s viewers with the exploits of posh and becks than a bunch of bath-dodgers getting het-up about a bunch of trees being chopped down or something.
- So everybody’s happy – no problemos – what’s my problem?
- A lack of media representation means that the message is not getting through to the masses. Like underground raves, protests are organised in secrecy and appeal only to a small number of die-hards.
- We are in danger of people ever remembering these conflicts.
4. Still get ravers, punks, protestors. It’s no longer a new thing
- Morse doesn’t deal with it in his episodes.
- Many parents nowadays were teenagers when E first came out in 1987. Drugs ain’t gonna scare them.
- Cannabis is practically legal and in some households, actively encouraged.
- Things change!!
- Rock’n’Roll is a fifty year old extinct lizard replaced by the furry, streamlined Pop mammal. No room for both of them.
5. Why?
- Is it no longer cool not to conform?
- Unfashionable? A cliché?
- Parents did it all before. The original punks are now well past their sell-by date and there’s nothing that pisses off an old punk than some young upstart who thinks they’re a punk, making the Blink 182 experience so much more enjoyable for your average 14 yr old.
- Are people less scared of young people (and their ideas). Have teenagers become inherently socially acceptable?
- We’ve tried, peace, hate, drugs, anarchy – none of them have managed to break through and smash the state or anything – does that mean that the current generation has decided to give up?
- No-one wants to be a dirty peacenik or a smelly, ugly punk anyway.
- Do young people have more on their minds than rebellion – money, family problems, a higher emphasis on education or even a genuine fear of authority that cannot be fucked with? Political protestors are traditionally rich-kids with nothing to do. Maybe these people are not around anymore?
- Maybe they can’t face these problems anymore. Instead of fighting, they block it out – hence apathy and the animosity towards political/global issues etc.
- Blame MTV’s shiny happy people? TV presenters with tans and smiles and trainers and clothes?
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- We are no longer shocked by “sex, drugs and rock’n’roll”. If I pasted those words fifty metres high in the middle of the street, the only complaints would be that it’s blocking the sunlight. No-one is offended by these three things. Friday evening telly deals with all three subjects, so even your granny’s up to date with all that stuff..
- Ironically, the government still pisses off our parents.

― dog latin (dog latin), Saturday, 17 January 2004 17:45 (twenty-two years ago)

under the bed

― Ed (dali), Saturday, 17 January 2004 17:46 (twenty-two years ago)

shit, sorry I am at work doing some mindless cyber-skiving which is why none of the original post makes much sense. All the same, please have a look cos I'm quite serious about writing this piece.

― dog latin (dog latin), Saturday, 17 January 2004 17:50 (twenty-two years ago)

sorry for the flippant remark, I'll read it all when I get to work.

― Ed (dali), Saturday, 17 January 2004 17:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Could it be that the very idea of a counterculture has become passe? My totally groundless theory about this is that mainstream culture will inevitably absorb and co-opt anything "underground," so why bother? That's not to say that countercultural touchstones -- punk, goth, raver, whatever -- don't have cache amongst the youngsters. We could draw a distinction here between "actual" counterculture and "perceived" counterculture. The kids shopping at Hot Topic might think they're doing something edgy or subversive (or not -- I'm honestly not sure) while we more clued-in folks can see they're just buying into a myth. But, then again, when they wear the stuff they bought at Hot Topic, it still gets a rise out of their parents and other kids at school. So does it matter where they bought it?

― Prude (Prude), Saturday, 17 January 2004 18:12 (twenty-two years ago)

doglatin, you ought to take a look at this thread, it's a good 'un

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Saturday, 17 January 2004 18:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Maybe you need to look for counterculture, rather than looking for it's none existence. It seems in a way you are trying to prove a negative hypothesis.

― jel -- (jel), Saturday, 17 January 2004 18:58 (twenty-two years ago)

non-existence, I mean.

― jel -- (jel), Saturday, 17 January 2004 18:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Or revise your definition of counterculture. The 60's-style counterculture may not apply anymore.

― Prude (Prude), Saturday, 17 January 2004 19:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Is there a difference between alt.culure, the underground and the counterculture?

― N. (nickdastoor), Saturday, 17 January 2004 19:22 (twenty-two years ago)

I always thought 'counterculture' implied one was trying to counter mainstream culture, undermine it whatever, rather than just provide an alternative to it. I always thought it was a bit of a weird word - where was it coined?

― N. (nickdastoor), Saturday, 17 January 2004 19:24 (twenty-two years ago)

your question implies that counterculture = youth culture. Why?

― run it off (run it off), Saturday, 17 January 2004 19:35 (twenty-two years ago)

the student movement in the late-60s and early 70s was not typical of previous versions of counter culture and led to thinkers like Herbert Marcuse changing his theory of social change, or rather, changing his conception of who would bring about social change. By the 1980s, when Dick Hebdidge and co were writing about subculture, rather than counter-culture, the political agency of youth had been fully commercialised and had its own codes. I think the way you describe counter-culture shows the internalisation of these codes...

― run it off (run it off), Saturday, 17 January 2004 19:57 (twenty-two years ago)

The dominant culture co-opts and subverts the counterculture in the same way it co-opts and subverts everything else: using the power of money and ownership. If you think you've discovered the current whereabouts of the counterculture, just apply these simple rules of thumb: who's supplying the capital and who's making the profits? Unless the answers to these questions look noticeably different from business as usual, then you've found the mainstream culture in new clothes.

― Aimless, Saturday, 17 January 2004 20:22 (twenty-two years ago)

1. Sex drugs, rocknroll.
- traditional, classic combination
- represents all things that is anti-authoritarian.
- Teddy boys, punks, mods, hippies, skinheads, ravers etc.

Well.. most kids I know are still into getting drunk, fucking and listening to the good time rock & roll station. Some more than others, and as it becomes a cultural thing more than just a social thing, the protest part of it comes in. I'm thinking of the kids who live in squats, lofts, punk houses, etc. Typically post-collegiate, so I guess they don't fit in with your age range.

3. Generalisation to say no-one wants to smash the system any more or that teen rebellion no longer happens.
- Free party scene is bigger than ever before

This can be seen as a rebellion against the type of high entrance fee clubbing you mentioned above. I think there's definitely a segment of kids who are into this because it's all about sharing/looking out for one another. Fuck, man, if kids don't help each other out, who's going to?

- A lack of media representation means that the message is not getting through to the masses. Like underground raves, protests are organised in secrecy and appeal only to a small number of die-hards.

If it got to the masses, it wouldn't be counterculture anymore, would it? I think that, as far as punk is concerned, it's been forced more and more underground since the beginning. From bands like the Ramones, the buzzcocks, the pistols, etc, having major label deals to the US hardcore scene of indie labels/booking your own tours/driving your own tour van to the current scene of playing in your friend's basements across the country, 'zines, etc. I don't know /why/ this is, really. I'd say partially to keep out the meat heads, and partially to prove to ourselves that we don't need any of that shit (clubs, tour vans, big labels, major music mags, etc.) to have a good time.

- We’ve tried, peace, hate, drugs, anarchy – none of them have managed to break through and smash the state or anything – does that mean that the current generation has decided to give up?

A resounding no. A lot of my friends at home are being evicted in a few weeks. And I mean a lot. Like, a couple of dozen, who are currently living in old factory/warehouse buildings. They're NOT giving up; they're NOT going to stop putting on shows or going to food not bombs; they're NOT going to stop thinking/feeling the way they did. If they had any chance of fighting the eviction (building's condemned), I'm sure they would.

- Do young people have more on their minds than rebellion – money, family problems, a higher emphasis on education or even a genuine fear of authority that cannot be fucked with? Political protestors are traditionally rich-kids with nothing to do. Maybe these people are not around anymore?

I wouldn't go that far. There's always a fear of authority, but there's always the knowledge that it's pretty easy to live outside of any authority at all--grow your own food, print your own posters, put on your own art and music shows, work somewhere you're ethically okay with.

more later. tired now.
xoxo.

― Ian Johnson (orion), Saturday, 17 January 2004 21:18 (twenty-two years ago)

another thing to remember is that studies of youth culture have consistently emphasised that their resistance is largely or entirely 'symbolic'.

Also, Paul Willis' "Profane Culture" from 1975(ish) pointed out that teenagers' ostentatious opposition to authority (teachers, police, etc) in no way excludes either a nostalgic yearning for conformism or deep-seated conservative attitudes, for instance to sex, gender, race or the family.

So, this means that we should avoid thinking of a late-60s/early-70s youth culture as a kind of golden age of counter-culture (it was always flawed and weak).

― run it off (run it off), Sunday, 18 January 2004 11:28 (twenty-two years ago)

something else, too...

It's not quite as simple as Aimless makes out by saying: "just apply these simple rules of thumb: who's supplying the capital and who's making the profits? Unless the answers to these questions look noticeably different from business as usual, then you've found the mainstream culture in new clothes."

For instance, has feminism's massive impact on culture and social practice been less marked because its literature has been sold rather than given away? If Routledge make a profit on knowledge, does that mean the knowledge has been completely corrupted? If knowledge is counter-cultural knowledge, then is it no longer serviceable to marginal and dissenting groups simply on account of that knowledge being exchanged for money?

The same for teenagers. Punk was a commercialised version of cultural resistance right from the start, but that didn't stop a lot of kids gaining an anti-capitalist politics out of it.

― run it off (run it off), Sunday, 18 January 2004 11:52 (twenty-two years ago)

now that I'm definitely talking to myself, I'll just add that both Bob Dylan and Lenny Bruce were in their 20s when they launched themselves into what came to be called the counter-culture. This at least puts the agency of the counter-culture outside of your youth parameters, though they may have had teenage fans, which is a different matter.

― run it off (run it off), Sunday, 18 January 2004 12:58 (twenty-two years ago)

what?

― Viva La Sam (thatgirl), Sunday, 18 January 2004 13:20 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think free raves are about rebellion necessarily, I've been to a few and they're great but the main reason alot of people go is to take drugs or listen to music or dance (the same reason they go to clubs) Sure it's a bit cheaper but not strictly and not way cheaper either.

― Ronan (Ronan), Sunday, 18 January 2004 13:27 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean really, "I am rebelling against the system". "Yeah dude me too, fucking brilliant, have you got a cigarette, wicked".

― Ronan (Ronan), Sunday, 18 January 2004 13:27 (twenty-two years ago)

How did these 'tweenagers' get all of these gadgets? When I was a kid, I got the Woolworth's barbie with the legs that didn't bend. Now I sound exactly like my grandpa.

I'm sure that the majority of the kids in Europe or North America don't live that way. What disturbs me is how generations are increasingly defined by what they consume - it's leaving out more and more kids. Also, college education (in the US, at least) is becoming more difficult again, so people who go to college and then go work for the media are increasingly out of touch with how many people live.

We’ve tried, peace, hate, drugs, anarchy – none of them have managed to break through and smash the state or anything – does that mean that the current generation has decided to give up?

Well, no, the state wasn't 'smashed', but I believe that people from my generation (1960-75) benefited from a new attitude toward child development and education. I think the seventies were less authoritarian. The younger generation isn't aware of the backlash that happened in the eighties. I try not to be an old fart, but it concerns me.

There was a recent poll that showed that the majority of college kids support Bush.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Sunday, 18 January 2004 14:39 (twenty-two years ago)

For instance, has feminism's massive impact on culture and social practice been less marked because its literature has been sold rather than given away?

I consider feminism to be well within the mainstream culture.

The two dominant characteristics of the western mainstream, in my opinion, have been the monetization of social values and the leveling of legal privileges. Feminism exemplifies both of these, from women's sufferage to the cry of "equal pay for equal work." Of these two dominant themes, the monetization theme is the stronger at the moment.

I'd be tempted to identify fundamentalist Christianity as the 'true' counterculture, if it weren't so corrupted by money and so confused about its roots.

― Aimless, Sunday, 18 January 2004 18:11 (twenty-two years ago)

I'll go with it being trampled by the counterpointculture.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Sunday, 18 January 2004 19:29 (twenty-two years ago)

What is obvious about feminism is that it established itself necessarily in opposition to the mainstream (not only a masculinised culture, but one in which women, for instance, had no legal rights to ownership and no right to vote, etc etc). The fact that feminism has had some success historically does not mean that it has become the mainstream. It means that part of its success can be measured in how far it has transformed what we consider the mainstream to be.

And as for the idea that commodification is a measure of how mainstream something is, consider this: when a capitalist invests in your labour it is perfectly legitimate (and oppositional) to enter into dispute over the amount of money involved and the conditions under which the exchange is made. If you're living in a capitalist world and your work relations are dominated by capital, it is not an act of compliance to think of your social relations in terms of capital, it is absolutely essential if you are to understand what situation you are in.

― run it off (run it off), Sunday, 18 January 2004 20:16 (twenty-two years ago)

These are all good points and they're putting me off writing the bloody thing, lol!

Remember that I am speaking about a British generation under 25. I am aware that there are still squatters, ravers, protestors etc, maybe more than ever before, but they are not being represented. Previously, catch-all terms like punk or hippie gave these groups a sense of self and also made sure that they were in the public eye. Nowadays, I'm not so sure. The link to the 1990 souffle thread is really handy btw.

― dog latin (dog latin), Monday, 19 January 2004 01:30 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd be tempted to identify fundamentalist Christianity as the 'true' counterculture, if it weren't so corrupted by money and so confused about its roots.

And in the U.S. at least, so thoroughly co-opted by the political right (not just fiscally).

― j.lu (j.lu), Monday, 19 January 2004 01:59 (twenty-two years ago)

three years pass...

- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.
- Modern pop “rebels” are comic-book characters, kitsched up far and above Rotten or Cash or NWA. Andrew WK, Eminem, Busted etc.

― Dom Passantino, Friday, 13 July 2007 09:25 (eighteen years ago)

counterculture is capitalisms attack against traditionalism

― 696, Friday, 13 July 2007 09:29 (eighteen years ago)

or, perhaps....'was'?

― 696, Friday, 13 July 2007 09:31 (eighteen years ago)

which means, if we accept that capitalism has totally won out (do we accept this btw?)

then counterculture *now* is that which is antithetical to capitalism (this movements whether religious or environmental are often characterized as 'regressive' - possibly true...environmentalism, particularly, as anti-growth - or at least it should be)

― 696, Friday, 13 July 2007 09:33 (eighteen years ago)

Don't ask me bruv. Maybe e-mail Dog Latin and see what he thinks?

― Dom Passantino, Friday, 13 July 2007 09:34 (eighteen years ago)

game time

― That one guy that hit it and quit it, Friday, 13 July 2007 09:35 (eighteen years ago)

the 60s counterculture was not *all* pro-capitalism. and a lot of it was 'traditional', either back-to-the-soil or artistically back-to-the-avant-garde.

but the left-wing alternative was never going to be wholly 'antithetical' to capitalism. even a cursory reading of hegel etc.

― That one guy that hit it and quit it, Friday, 13 July 2007 09:37 (eighteen years ago)

i agree with the 2nd point entirely

the 1st point is more interesting. but im thinking of traditionalism here as power structures and constraints, not idealism of back-to-land (which probably was more an early 70s thing, though yes roots in 60s)

― 696, Friday, 13 July 2007 09:50 (eighteen years ago)

did the man have a startup company? or was the man blocking market entry for the dudes startup company?

― 696, Friday, 13 July 2007 09:51 (eighteen years ago)

but yea, back-to-land movements are theoretically more anti-capitalist than anti-traditional, though i guess thats where your £4.95 back of redwood smouldered organic pine nuts grown on a wind farm outside hawick comes from

― 696, Friday, 13 July 2007 09:53 (eighteen years ago)

the counterculture in SF, NY, and LDN, like all art movements since the 1870s, was basically yer moneyed upper-middle-classes goofing off a bit in their twenties. but was the difference that the counterculture meshed with popular culture in a totally new way?

― That one guy that hit it and quit it, Friday, 13 July 2007 09:57 (eighteen years ago)

yes. because it became capitalisms vehicle

or rather capitalism discovered how to sell peoples lives to other people, better

― 696, Friday, 13 July 2007 10:05 (eighteen years ago)

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