When is racism racism?

That's surely the crux of all racism.

Also when its not humour, but just general ignorance.

Can I be clear that I don't want this thread to be about Scotland. I just wondered about boundaries of acceptability with regard to race/culture divisions, and since being Scottish and having a chip on my shoulder about people assuming that England = Britain is all I know, that's the angle I came at it from. I told you it was badly worded.

To take it further, can white people ever legitimately complain of racism (since they are considered the "top" race in damn well every place on earth)?

Of course they can. Racism is racism. I don't think there should be a prerequisite oppressive power structure in place before you can feel you've been mistreated for your race.

run it off - OK, not always 'minority' - substitute the word 'group'

Like, N. has mentioned way up that the general feeling is that Scotland aren't an oppressed minority any more. Whose general feeling is this?

(x-post)

that's a non-starter. are you saying that because blacks have been historically oppressed on account of their race, they are immune to racism?
Because that's mythology at best.

See, this is what I mean. How is this the case? What about white farmers run off their land in Zimbabwe for example?

"It's shite being Scottish! We're the lowest of the low. The scum of the fucking Earth! The most wretched miserable servile pathetic trash that was ever shat on civilization. Some people hate the English. I don't. They're just wankers. We, on the other hand, are colonized by wankers. Can't even find a decent culture to get colonized by. We're ruled by effete assholes. It's a shite state of affairs to be in."

Funny, but there are few Scots I know who won't identify with that a little, especially when bombarded with Jonny Wilkinson, David Beckham, 1966, Tim Henman etc (funny how sport tends to exacerbate these feelings). This is undisguised racism, but how is this less offensive than other forms? Is it based on the feeling of the person on the receiving end? Can you have racism-lite?

So:

Taking race into account when the people involved are not oppressed = racial
Taking race into account when the people involved are oppressed = racist

It's okay, then, to rag a Scot with racial stereotypes, because by and large his race isn't negatively impacting his life chances. But not to rag a British Asian with same, because his race is.

But, given that by definition racism operates using race as the justification of discrimination, isn't this just a way to take off the agenda precisely the topic that needs to be discussed and acknowledged in these people's case? Why is it precisely the 'difference that makes a difference', the 'signifying difference', which cannot be mentioned to those whose lives it most changes, and who are constantly aware of it? Isn't this just a way of shuffling 'things we all know' off into the realm of 'the unspoken'?

Or is it just a question of adverbs: how one talks about race, and to whom? In that case, we can imagine the odd paradox of a British Asian man listening out for jocular racial slurs as the sign, in fact, that his race is no longer a significant social handicap.

Ailsa, you, er, jock!

Dismantling corrupt systems is one thing, inflicting violence on people because of their race is another.
Sometimes the two must go hand in hand, but replacing one corrupt system with another is just other-footism.

(Sorry)

...the Irish brought it all on themselves by invading England; and, the Scots have got it easy compared to the Brits!

Militant black groups targeting all whites for violence is an example of racism.

Two very different situations.

We might see women treating men badly as often as we see men treat women badly, but that doesn't count against the systemic inequality between men and women.

We might hear stories about how factory workers steal off their bosses, take sickies, sneak off for fags in the toilets and all that, but that doestn't count against the systemic inequality between bosses and workers.

Racism is a system, not a lifestyle choice. That's all I'm saying.

Cracker, honky, whitey, The Man, are not of the exact same nature, because of the historical (un)balances of military, economic and political power.

In US this is a fairly normal reaction to being messed with, whether you are black white or something else - whether you have money or not. At the same time there are people who just don't live with a lot of crime and don't get it.

Dude is clearly doing this so the perpetrator doesn't think about messing with him or his family again. People who expect them to cry and engage in other hysterics don't get it, life has to go on in a housing project, going "ooo how horrible" as an outsider is kind of exploitative.

not just exploitative, but very condescending as well

So did anyone see this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hdC16-cTQ0

i got tremendous respect for Antoine, tho i'm kinda worried that the extra visibility will cause a retaliation....

I know I catch hell for saying stuff like this on ILX, but it seems to me that giving offense through sheer ignorance or cack-handedness should not be called racism, even though it is in a racial context. Ignorance is universal. Social offense is a common occurance. It takes extreme vigilance to avoid successfully all occasions for offense and few of us can do it.

It seems to me more helpful to include all such common faults under a less volatile heading that acknowleges their source in human fallibility, rather than to equate them with behavior that originates in malice, bigotry or hatred.

The fact that such malice, bigotry and hatred do exist makes it especially hard to rely on fone's feelings as a guide for evaluating the situation; when it hurts the same, it is difficult to recognize there is a difference of intention. But the key test is: if you make a bigot aware of your hurt, he won't apologize, feel shame or distress, or try to make amends. The inadvertant author of a hurt will most likely do all these, once they know they gave offense.

yeah nobody should ever have to watch themselves. its the victims responsibility to call them out

If someone says something to or around me that I think is racially / culturally insensitive (out of ignorance, not aggression), I try to avoid that person. I'm not inclined to start a fight about it because I find arguing draining. Those people have to change on their own.

My philosophy, however, is that I'm not going to put a lot of energy into that person's social sphere - whether it's a workplace or club or church or activity, whether it's online or off, because I don't want to reward people who don't make an effort to make everyone comfortable.

What's sad is how this is taken as "judgment" or hostility. I am trying to avoid hostility because I know I can't change people by getting angry at them. This is baggage of mine that goes back to high school.

plax, either you are not a very attentive reader or you are trolling me.

(hums a little tune) A troll or just a silly goose? Which could it be? Which could it be?

White people have stacked the line against racism. Racism has moved from being outward and bold to institutional and veiled, so now many of us get away with saying "racism just isn't a problem anymore, WHINING ABOUT IT is", because it's not as obvious and over the surface as it used to be.

When anybody whines about it, they're "over sensitive" or "want special rights". It doesn't help that the media only focuses on the marginal instances because they are headline generators, which undermine the valid claims that people have.

It's no different to me than the asshole people I see on Facebook joining groups like "I'm saying 'Merry Christmas' to you, I don't care if its not PC".

When anybody whines about it, they're "over sensitive" or "want special rights"

this is the trick ruling/privileged classes have done across gender race & class lines imo - it's their defense against the movement of history

for reference, this person on facebook is white and recently was seen joining a group called "No, I Shouldn't Have to Push 1 to Hear English, You Should Speak the Language when You Get here" or some crap like that...

ahem, not to be presumptuous, but why the fuck are you fbook friends with dumbshit people like this?

i mean, i don't unfriend people very often, but joining such a group would be a reason to do so.

It's mostly because the whole concept of race relations has been dumbed down into very static, black and white terms, which really don't capture the magnitude of it.

if a black man calls me a "cracker", the kneejerk reaction is that it's as bad as me dropping the N-word, but that's such horseshit in context.

I actually took a course in college about Psychology of Race Relations which was real eye opening.

xxpost -- actually, I have removed many of these people as friends, I trim my friends list every month.

one of my friends that joined that group, instead of defriending (as I've known her for 8 years and ahve given up on her having any modicum of intelligence on the matter), another friend and I both posted similar messages on Facebook asking what the benefit in saying Merry Christmas to everybody, regardless of what religion they might belong to serves as opposed to actually finding out first.

i want people to say "Merry Athiest" to me

oh, okay. i only trim people who offend me with their homophobia or racism. luckily, i don't know many homophobic or racist people.

i've thought about trimming religious people, but then i'm like, 'eh, satanism is a cult, too, and i don't want to trim my satan-worshipping friends.'

the only recent conundrum has been whether to trim this girl who i went to middle school with who i've seen around once in a while. she's become a cop. but then i looked at her profile and interests/activities, and it seems that she's also a vegan and a HUGE environmental protection/ animal rights person. so, a liberal cop. eh, kept her.

I mean I don't drop people for having different opinions than me. I have a lot of Christian friends and ya know if they want to post things about how much God means to them and how much they love him, that's fine. The moment they start writing shit like "so and so feels sorry for all of the people who haven't found God" and condescending shit, then they're gone.

I have quite a few conservative friends too, I like having good healthy debate with them. The histrionic ones, usually don't last long. I tend to trim any friend that I don't really know that well either as I'm not interested in collecting 1,000 friends that I barely know IRL.

I've secretly joined some of those "push 1" groups just to see what people are saying. I joined some anti-animals groups even though I'm a vegetarian and stuff like that. I'd rather read that stuff of my own volition than have someone send it to me as if I agree.

oh, okay. i only trim people who offend me with their homophobia or racism.

this is the weirdest kink I've ever heard of, just fyi, no offense

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

And now we have:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CoUD5MRrDs

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/01/chicken-and-waffles-mlk-day.html

UCI Loliday Special: Chicken and Roffles

idg the waffles. Is that a thing?

It's legit soul food, but definitely on the cheap side of soul food, and one that might attract ridicule because it's an odd pairing, maybe?

Eh,I think the issue is that mlk day equals stereotypical black food is a bit gauche.

http://thingsthatblackpeoplelike.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/roscoes1.jpg

A classic L.A. joint, however.

My college dorm food service did ethnic theme dinners one Sunday a month, and the German one happened to fall on April 20th one year, which turned out to be Hitler's birthday. There was some shit brought up about that afterward. I guess now they can reserve 4/20 for junk food.

Mexico complains about BBC show's "offensive" slurs

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110201/lf_nm_life/us_britain_topgear

Most American racist perspectives on Mexicans are more refined than that.

Seriously, why do we frown on Jim Davidson, Bernard Manning etc and yet Clarkson still gets let loose all over the place? I hope he gets run over.

Please sue the shit out of them so they can't afford to make any more programmes. Thanks.

grow my hair grow my hair i am jim davidson

ha

is that "anyone can play guitar"?

leaning against a fence asleep looking at a cactus with a blanket with a hole in the middle on as a coat

also lol@'the mexican ambassador won't complain, he's too lazy/asleep' -- famous last words y'all!

oy, why oh why did I scroll down to the comments

Brian 1 minute ago
When Mexican crime lords stop murdering and enslaving Guatemalans who are seeking a better life, I will call upon the British to apologize for making fun of Mexicans.

Those crime lords don't sound too lazy

SOLUTION TO MEXICO'S CRIME PROBLEMS: build more comfortable fences + interesting cacti

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/storage/4/721247/600_Inside_T.H..jpg

kind of assume Clarkson bumped this in his youth, if this is 'refried sick' put me down for some tbh

Clarkson probably never actually eaten Mexican food, he's British after all

When I bought that on CD, it did not have that gatefold ;_;

xxpost

Beans with cheese on top? Enchiladas peeking out from a blanket of yellow goop? Shredded jack on tacos? You're in a den of gabachos for sure. That's not to say that Mexicans don't eat cheese; they do, just not melted all over everything. Real Mexican restaurants use cheese as an ingredient, not a topping. The only things covered with melted cheese you're likely to see in a real Mexican place are alambres or clayudas.

Mexicans should try cheese as a topping then, because it's pretty fucking good!

gilbert & george dont seem to understand the word 'paki' is racist

"Soul food" during Black History Month was pretty much routine when I was in high school/college.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bs-md-renaming-mountains-20110220,0,2311127.story

Sen. George Edwards, a Western Maryland Republican, offers the tongue-in-cheek suggestion to rename Sugarloaf Mountain near Frederick to "Healthy Mountain" — "since we now know that sugar is bad for us and don't want to be promoting it."

"Maryland, My Maryland," the Civil War-era hymn that became the state song in 1939, has survived periodic attempts at a rewrite. Its pro-Confederacy lyrics refer to President Abraham Lincoln as a "despot," "tyrant" and "vandal," and to the Union as "Northern scum."

:)