Taking Sides: Cybil Shepherd Vs Andrea Dworkin

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Andrea Dworkin is a far right so called "feminist" who believes that sex with minors, family members and animals is acceptable but any adult sexual relations between two members of the opposite sex is wrong, because it's rape. Or something. She, by complete and utter coincidence, is REALLY UGLY AND GROSS - but this probably doesn't equate, in any way, to why she doesn't like men.

Cybil Shepherd was in "Taxi Driver" and showed she had a whopping body in "The Last Picture Show". She also starred in "Moonlighting", but we'll forgive her for that. And for her show.

But all in Cybil wins. Hurrah!

― C-Man (C-Man), Thursday, 3 June 2004 01:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Cybil. She's fiery and feisty.

― Pack Yr Romantic Almanac (Autumn Almanac), Thursday, 3 June 2004 01:46 (twenty-two years ago)

andrea.

― jed_ (jed), Thursday, 3 June 2004 01:50 (twenty-two years ago)

"But all in Cybil wins. Hurrah!"

Hurrah! Case closed, Thread Locked etc.

― de, Thursday, 3 June 2004 01:51 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think the 'crazy ugly feminist' characterization is fair, but I'd still cast my vote for Cybill.

Dworkin beleives that any depiction of rape is tantamount to the act itself. I once read a review of one of her books in which the critic invented made up a story where a fictitious character rapes Andrea Dworkin. Anything that lends itself to recursive rape scares me.

― andrew l. r. (allocryptic), Thursday, 3 June 2004 02:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Andrea easy.

What a brilliant woman.

― pissboxer, Thursday, 3 June 2004 08:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Moonlighting is classic, you cunts

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 3 June 2004 09:06 (twenty-two years ago)

"Crazy Ugly Feminist" not fair? Where she thinks any woman in a relationship with a man is being raped and where she thinks sex with animals or minors is acceptable?

― C-Man (C-Man), Thursday, 3 June 2004 11:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Look at you trying to wind people up... when has Dworkin ever said its ok to have sex with animals and minors?

― pissboxer (pissboxer), Thursday, 3 June 2004 11:07 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www2.whidbey.net/kernow/miner.jpg

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 3 June 2004 11:13 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.lighthouseterrace.com/images/P7130061.jpg

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 3 June 2004 11:16 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/asia_minor_p20.jpg

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 3 June 2004 11:18 (twenty-two years ago)

did she encourage sex with asia minor?

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 3 June 2004 11:19 (twenty-two years ago)

I fancy a bit with thrace, myself.

(calum, you've banged on abt this at least twice before)

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Thursday, 3 June 2004 11:21 (twenty-two years ago)

nay, nay and thrace nay

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 3 June 2004 11:25 (twenty-two years ago)

come to think of it, why does no one say "thrice" any more. i had a bet with a mate a few weeks ago, when i was picking up lunch that i'd ask for "cod and chips thrice". i did. the bloke behing the counter looked at me as if i was mental.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 3 June 2004 11:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Calum, you are an unmitigated and clueless moron. Come back when you know what you're actually talking about. Or don't.

― stevie (stevie), Thursday, 3 June 2004 12:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Sighs...

http://www.equityfeminism.com/andrea_dworkin/dworkin_001.html

Among other links you can find by a quick Google search. I dislike being told I've not at least read some of this maniac's writings.

― C-Man (C-Man), Thursday, 3 June 2004 12:26 (twenty-two years ago)

A quick trawl round that "equity feminism" reveals, hm, I don't know quite what exactly. There's something a bit crypto-ideological about it. An air of something dressed in something else's clothing.

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Thursday, 3 June 2004 12:48 (twenty-two years ago)

OK, a quick trawl thru various links reveals this:

http:// www.animalrights.net /about/

(cut & paste/close the spaces)

This:

http:// www.animalrights.net/articles /2004/000233.html

(again, cut and paste/close spaces)

is the same guy as wrote the andrea dw piece above on abt yer pals from shac.

(nb, I'm not trying to get at you here, I'm just kind of bored)

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Thursday, 3 June 2004 12:59 (twenty-two years ago)

http:// www.leftwatch.com

this guy is pretty prolific, eh?!

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Thursday, 3 June 2004 13:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Calum, have you read any Andrea Dworkin books front-to-back? If not, please do so before opening your pie-hole. Reading what others have to say about something isn't the same as knowing what you're talking about.

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Thursday, 3 June 2004 13:10 (twenty-two years ago)

I never knew the author. If he writes for Animal Rights then he's likely pretty right wing, but Andrea Dworkin is well known for her views on "pansexuality" (as she calls it) and she does hate men.

― C-Man (C-Man), Thursday, 3 June 2004 13:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Yo Thomas. The fat git hates you too you know. Jesus. Sticking up for a pro-censorship, anti-man, pro-bestiality loon.

― C-Man (C-Man), Thursday, 3 June 2004 13:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah that answers the question - you haven't a clue, and you let others do your thinking for you. At least this explains your Oasis fetish - whew! Finally! I was beginning to worry you actually liked 'em on their merits or something

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Thursday, 3 June 2004 13:13 (twenty-two years ago)

you like michael moore? brian c doesn't!!

http:// www.leftwatch. com/articles/2003/000001.html

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Thursday, 3 June 2004 13:13 (twenty-two years ago)

dworkin interviewed by michael moorcock:

http:// www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/MoorcockInterview.html

(FWIW)

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Thursday, 3 June 2004 13:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Michael Moorcock: After "Right-Wing Women" and "Ice and Fire" you wrote "Intercourse". Another book which helped me clarify confusions about my own sexual relationships. You argue that attitudes to conventional sexual intercourse enshrine and perpetuate sexual inequality. Several reviewers accused you of saying that all intercourse was rape. I haven't found a hint of that anywhere in the book. Is that what you are saying?

Andrea Dworkin: No, I wasn't saying that and I didn't say that, then or ever. There is a long section in Right-Wing Women on intercourse in marriage. My point was that as long as the law allows statutory exemption for a husband from rape charges, no married woman has legal protection from rape. I also argued, based on a reading of our laws, that marriage mandated intercourse--it was compulsory, part of the marriage contract. Under the circumstances, I said, it was impossible to view sexual intercourse in marriage as the free act of a free woman. I said that when we look at sexual liberation and the law, we need to look not only at which sexual acts are forbidden, but which are compelled.

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Thursday, 3 June 2004 13:17 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean - the difference between me & you here is that I've actually read Woman Hating, and Intercourse as well, and plenty of her essays - I disagree with Dworkin on lots of things, but I don't do so out of some knee-jerk "She hates men!" position that I got by responding to seeing her demonized by assholes. What you're doing on this thread is EXACTLY THE SAME as people claiming that those who care about animal welfare want to "outlaw meat-eating" or other nonsense.

But your long history here proves you're not interested in actually knowing what you're talking about - you'd rather just pick the contrary position and have a cheap laugh. What's sad about that is that in choosing to act like this, you join hands with the very people you deplore (people who don't give a shit about the welfare of animals in laboratories, for example) - taking the easy way out instead of really thinking. Too bad for you, too bad for everybody.

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Thursday, 3 June 2004 13:17 (twenty-two years ago)

(x-posting, the "you" in my post is Calum not Pashmina obv.!)

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Thursday, 3 June 2004 13:18 (twenty-two years ago)

You should read that moorcock interview calum, it's dworkin's actual words, and actually very interesting.

(x-post yeah, TT, I figured)

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Thursday, 3 June 2004 13:19 (twenty-two years ago)

There'll probably be plenty x-posting here but to me the really interesting bit in the Moorcock interview is this:

The whole issue of intercourse as this culture's penultimate expression of male dominance became more and more interesting to me. In Intercourse I decided to approach the subject as a social practice, material reality. This may be my history, but I think the social explanation of the "all sex is rape" slander is different and probably simple. Most men and a good number of women experience sexual pleasure in inequality. Since the paradigm for sex has been one of conquest, possession, and violation, I think many men believe they need an unfair advantage, which at its extreme would be called rape. I don't think they need it. I think both intercourse and sexual pleasure can and will survive equality.

Really illuminates just what her position is & defuses the "she condemns those of us who just wanna fuck!" argument.

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Thursday, 3 June 2004 13:22 (twenty-two years ago)

and now, Mr. Stelfox, if you'd be so kind as to resume posting really enormous and wonderful pictures, I would be ever so, as no good can come of trying to engage Calum in debate

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Thursday, 3 June 2004 13:23 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.calicotown.com/calicodays/pressimages/miner.jpg

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 3 June 2004 13:27 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~cehs/images/miner.jpg

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 3 June 2004 13:28 (twenty-two years ago)

http://home.freeuk.com/s-parrott/po-images/morris-minor.jpg

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 3 June 2004 13:29 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.honoluluzoo.org/images/toby_mynah.jpg

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 3 June 2004 13:34 (twenty-two years ago)

by God Mr. S you are a good man and I owe you several beers

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Thursday, 3 June 2004 13:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Thomas I have also read Dworkin/ MacKinnon and you, my friend, are talking out of a part of your body usually reserved for dispensing waste. In other words, you are a total moron. I'm glad you can pick out the odd quote and say, "Dworkin thinks this, no really she does", but this is the same idiot who wants to censor all literature and film that she considers pornographic. Defend her if you want.

― C-Man (C-Man), Thursday, 3 June 2004 13:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Calum, from what I can tell here, the people arguing against you are actually pulling apart real interviews and essays by Dworkin and linking them here, while the best you can do is an "analysis" by someone who apparently makes his living off of histrionics. Analysis in quotes because the quotes he pulls seem to me, without having read Dworkin, half-quotes and highly selective and even with that don't seem entirely supportive of his conclusions. It would not be an A or even a B essay in a class so why are you basing your opinion on this?

Until you can provide more than this I fear that all you are doing is picking out the odd, half quote and stating "Dworkin thinks this, no really she does", except the difference between you and Thomas/Pashmina is that they're actually finding quotes from Dworkin, while you are finding quotes from some man who dislikes Dworkin. In shorts, you're being a total moron. SURPRISE.

― Allyzay, Thursday, 3 June 2004 13:50 (twenty-two years ago)

As usual, Calum, you're lying about what you have read/do actually know/etc since you've been caught blathering on about stuff you know nothing about. Proof? You linked to a fucking position paper using carefully selected extracts strung together to prove a point.

You haven't read shit, you can claim you have all day but nobody'll believe you, I'm the only one honest enough to say it to your face is all. Your knowledge of Dworkin is limited to what others have told you and nothing you say will convince me or anyone else otherwise. If you'd read her stuff, this thread wouldn't exist. QED. Now back to your sad old nineties britpop collection, you

x-post Allyzay nails it yet again

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Thursday, 3 June 2004 13:52 (twenty-two years ago)

"I'm the only one honest enough" etc. just wind in sails of course, no disrespect intended to my fellow Calum-ain't-knowin' callout posse

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Thursday, 3 June 2004 13:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Dude, I read this shit back in 1997. Forgive me for drawing on memory.

― C-Man (C-Man), Thursday, 3 June 2004 13:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Unlike Ally who argues animal rights having read, ooooooh nothing about it at all.

― C-Man (C-Man), Thursday, 3 June 2004 13:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh shit, we've all been served!

― Allyzay, Thursday, 3 June 2004 13:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm not asking you to seduce my parrot!

― but you do have to have a degree (blueski), Thursday, 3 June 2004 14:03 (twenty-two years ago)

*wonders idly if we should just charge C-Man for all computer upgrades, since he likes it here so much*

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 3 June 2004 14:04 (twenty-two years ago)

http://uk.geocities.com/tradcarclub/images/MorrisMinor.JPG

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 3 June 2004 14:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Stand or deliver, Calum, your money or your porn!

― Adam Ant Jives On Whiskey Tits (Barima), Thursday, 3 June 2004 14:39 (twenty-two years ago)

I actually read Mercy, Dworkin's novel. Do I win a prize?

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 3 June 2004 14:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Was it any good?

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Thursday, 3 June 2004 14:42 (twenty-two years ago)

I liked it. It was crazy. Like Hubert Selby, Dennis Cooper, and Kathy Acker all rolled up into one. It made a lot of so-called "transgressive" lit I had read look like kidz stuff.

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 3 June 2004 14:52 (twenty-two years ago)

I think she's a good writer. When I read her stuff I was kinda enamored with "extremes" in writing, and she fit the bill. And then some. There's one book, I think it's called "Letters From The War Zone" that has good stuff in it. I think that's the title. I don't even know what she does these days. probably still trying to get stuff banned.

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 3 June 2004 14:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Of all the feminist writers I cam across or studied at uni, Dworkin was the biggest git of them all. Or maybe MacKinnon. She's a nutter too.

― C-Man (C-Man), Thursday, 3 June 2004 15:08 (twenty-two years ago)

(The greatest thing about Calum is that he can actually rally people to defend Andrea Dworkin! I'll bet if he flew in to Mississippi and took a bold stance against gay marriage, they'd be issuing same-sex licenses before he left the podium.)

― nabiscothingy, Thursday, 3 June 2004 15:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Her clearly phony claim that she was raped in a Paris hotel is really quite strange, and doesn't show her up in a good light.

― Markus C., Thursday, 3 June 2004 15:35 (twenty-two years ago)

aw n I'd defend Dworkin anyhow! I don't think her stance is nearly as nutty as her numerous detractors make it out to be; it's more "if you really hate the patriarchy, then take an honest look at its most-entrenched linchpins" and pornography's one of them. I'm porn-sympathetic, to be honest, but Dworkin's case against it is 1) well-argued and 2) rather persuasive

also, from a rhetorical standpoint, she's got it goin' on

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Thursday, 3 June 2004 15:35 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.theorytime.com/images/items/grade0.gif

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 3 June 2004 15:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, I certainly wouldn't characterize Dworkin as the raving nut she's made out to be, either -- just funny how one man's idiocy gets her way more benefit-of-doubt than she'd get in a straight-up C or D type thread. (ILX = sniping at things; Calum Snipes = "let's be reasonable and think fairly" etc.)

― nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 3 June 2004 15:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Calum Snipes = Wesley's asshole twin (cf Danny Devito in Twins

― nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 3 June 2004 15:42 (twenty-two years ago)

)

― nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 3 June 2004 15:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Dworkin roxx. And I'm not even gay.
-- dave q (scrape10...), September 29th, 2003.

― g--ff (gcannon), Thursday, 3 June 2004 15:46 (twenty-two years ago)

http://blackfilm.nease.net/movie/star/wp/1.jpg

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 3 June 2004 15:48 (twenty-two years ago)

(The greatest thing about Calum is that he can actually rally people to defend Andrea Dworkin! I'll bet if he flew in to Mississippi and took a bold stance against gay marriage, they'd be issuing same-sex licenses before he left the podium.)

I'm convinced I read threads where ILE defended animal torture or Ariel Sharon in response to C's idiocy.

― Sym (shmuel), Friday, 4 June 2004 06:11 (twenty-two years ago)

"Or something."

― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Friday, 4 June 2004 06:15 (twenty-two years ago)

though the tone of this question could convince even me to consider defending her, andrea dworkin is an obnoxious bully. her essay "i want a 24 hour truce in which there is no rape" is one of the most despicable things i've ever read. she's like the calum of feminism.

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Friday, 4 June 2004 06:36 (twenty-two years ago)

one year passes...

Hilarious!

― Controversial Col, Wednesday, 8 June 2005 00:08 (twenty years ago)

oh my god roffles all the way

― caitlin oh no (caitxa1), Wednesday, 8 June 2005 00:09 (twenty years ago)

http://www.swamp-city.com/archives/cybill.jpg

http://elsa.photo.net/allenandrea.jpg

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 8 June 2005 00:31 (twenty years ago)

Did anyone read the recent article about Dworkin in New York magazine? I had no idea she'd had gastric bypass surgery! Between that and her various illnesses she looked so frail in her most recent pictures. Also, her husband edits AARP magazine! Go know!

― tokyo nursery school: afternoon session (rosemary), Wednesday, 8 June 2005 00:49 (twenty years ago)

can't find it. link, my fair feminist friend

― caitlin oh no (caitxa1), Wednesday, 8 June 2005 00:56 (twenty years ago)

nevermind, found it

― caitlin oh no (caitxa1), Wednesday, 8 June 2005 01:02 (twenty years ago)

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