John Kerry voted to raise taxes 325 times .. Armchair economists, explain why that's bullshit.

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I had a moment of clarity - although it may be based on erroneous information .. try this on ...

Raising or cutting taxes is basically irrelevant.

Why are we taxed in the first place? To cover the cost of government. So someone would vote to raise taxes either because:
-the cost of government has risen (or else the tax burden is being shifted from one taxpayer to another)
-OR-
-the government needs to recover deficits.

Voting to reduce taxes means either:
-the cost of government has gone down (ha!)
-OR-
-the government should go into debt and defer the cost of government.

In general, reducing taxes (Senator Squarejaw voted to reduce taxes by 10%) - means that either Sen. Squarejaw is adding to the deficit or a 10% hike is required elsewhere.

-- Conclusion ---

How many times a politician voted to raise or lower taxes means nothing..
What counts is:
1.-What population that congressman/senator has chosen to bear the brunt of the taxes.
2.-What percent of GDP is the President's budget? i.e. If the President is spending more than current tax revenue can pay for, then congress MUST raise taxes, or else we have a (higher) deficit.

.. So basically, what you pay in taxes it's all on the the President, and not on Congress.

dave225 (Dave225), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 12:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Are there any states with a 15% sales tax yet?

Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 12:53 (twenty-two years ago)

So basically, what you pay in taxes it's all on the the President, and not on Congress.

er, Congress actually writes the budget legislation, though you're right it's usually at the request/bidding of the president.

hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 12:55 (twenty-two years ago)

.. Wel, that's what I meant by "although it may be based on erroneous information" .. although I did think that congress approved the President's proposed budget .. so, no one is completely innocent - but my main point is that having a campaign ad that blasts a senator for raising taxes is misleading for the reasons above..

dave225 (Dave225), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 13:06 (twenty-two years ago)

very rarely, if ever, does Congress approve a President's budget without making at least minimal changes. I think, even in the case of the massive Bush tax cuts, he didn't get quite what he wanted, size-wise.

hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 13:08 (twenty-two years ago)

This business about Kerry voting for 325 separate tax increases is a Republican rhetorical trick, if memory serves. That is, Kerry didn't vote to increase taxes 325 separate times -- they are counting multiple increases within single tax bills (and you can't vote up or down on line items; this is why legislators often attach amendments to controversial bills in an effort to kill them). It's probably worth noting that some of those tax increases were also pitched by the recently deceased Saint Ronnie.

rasheed wallace (rasheed wallace), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 13:10 (twenty-two years ago)

oh and the debate now is whether those tax cuts should be made permanent.

I do agree with some of your basic points, though.

hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 13:11 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah and the Republicans are probably also counting a lot of things as increases that technically aren't, that's a classic campaign ad strategy.

hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 13:12 (twenty-two years ago)

xpost

The Great Taxer by Paul Krugman
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/08/opinion/08KRUG.html

Over the course of this week we'll be hearing a lot about Ronald Reagan, much of it false. A number of news sources have already proclaimed Mr. Reagan the most popular president of modern times. In fact, though Mr. Reagan was very popular in 1984 and 1985, he spent the latter part of his presidency under the shadow of the Iran-Contra scandal. Bill Clinton had a slightly higher average Gallup approval rating, and a much higher rating during his last two years in office.

We're also sure to hear that Mr. Reagan presided over an unmatched economic boom. Again, not true: the economy grew slightly faster under President Clinton, and, according to Congressional Budget Office estimates, the after-tax income of a typical family, adjusted for inflation, rose more than twice as much from 1992 to 2000 as it did from 1980 to 1988.

But Ronald Reagan does hold a special place in the annals of tax policy, and not just as the patron saint of tax cuts. To his credit, he was more pragmatic and responsible than that; he followed his huge 1981 tax cut with two large tax increases. In fact, no peacetime president has raised taxes so much on so many people. This is not a criticism: the tale of those increases tells you a lot about what was right with President Reagan's leadership, and what's wrong with the leadership of George W. Bush.

The first Reagan tax increase came in 1982. By then it was clear that the budget projections used to justify the 1981 tax cut were wildly optimistic. In response, Mr. Reagan agreed to a sharp rollback of corporate tax cuts, and a smaller rollback of individual income tax cuts. Over all, the 1982 tax increase undid about a third of the 1981 cut; as a share of G.D.P., the increase was substantially larger than Mr. Clinton's 1993 tax increase.

The contrast with President Bush is obvious. President Reagan, confronted with evidence that his tax cuts were fiscally irresponsible, changed course. President Bush, confronted with similar evidence, has pushed for even more tax cuts.

Mr. Reagan's second tax increase was also motivated by a sense of responsibility — or at least that's the way it seemed at the time. I'm referring to the Social Security Reform Act of 1983, which followed the recommendations of a commission led by Alan Greenspan. Its key provision was an increase in the payroll tax that pays for Social Security and Medicare hospital insurance.

For many middle- and low-income families, this tax increase more than undid any gains from Mr. Reagan's income tax cuts. In 1980, according to Congressional Budget Office estimates, middle-income families with children paid 8.2 percent of their income in income taxes, and 9.5 percent in payroll taxes. By 1988 the income tax share was down to 6.6 percent — but the payroll tax share was up to 11.8 percent, and the combined burden was up, not down.

Nonetheless, there was broad bipartisan support for the payroll tax increase because it was part of a deal. The public was told that the extra revenue would be used to build up a trust fund dedicated to the preservation of Social Security benefits, securing the system's future. Thanks to the 1983 act, current projections show that under current rules, Social Security is good for at least 38 more years.

But George W. Bush has made it clear that he intends to renege on the deal. His officials insist that the trust fund is meaningless — which means that they don't feel bound to honor the implied contract that dedicated the revenue generated by President Reagan's payroll tax increase to paying for future Social Security benefits. Indeed, it's clear from the arithmetic that the only way to sustain President Bush's tax cuts in the long run will be with sharp cuts in both Social Security and Medicare benefits.

I did not and do not approve of President Reagan's economic policies, which saddled the nation with trillions of dollars in debt. And as others will surely point out, some of the foreign policy shenanigans that took place on his watch, notably the Iran-contra scandal, foreshadowed the current debacle in Iraq (which, not coincidentally, involves some of the same actors).

Still, on both foreign and domestic policy Mr. Reagan showed both some pragmatism and some sense of responsibility. These are attributes sorely lacking in the man who claims to be his political successor.

[bold not in original]


Maria D., Tuesday, 8 June 2004 13:13 (twenty-two years ago)

The other Kerry tax thing to be wary of is the whole gasoline tax business. Republicans say that he supports increasing gasoline taxes; Kerry hasn't actually proposed higher levies at the pump in over 10 years. FWIW, Bush's chief economic adviser Greg Mankiw backed higher gasoline taxes in his freelance magazine writing as recently as two years ago.

rasheed wallace (rasheed wallace), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 13:14 (twenty-two years ago)

To be fair, the thing about Reagan in that Krugman article that he didn't acknowledge, for better or for worse, is that Reagan had a lot more pressure from his own party on his bad supply-side economics. His vice president, Bush the Elder, was the one who called Reagan's tax plans "voodoo economics" during the primaries, after all.

hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 13:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Gas taxes should be higher and that no American politician will admit as such is pretty disgusting.

hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 13:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Reagan himself clearly didn't know what the "supply side" even was. There's a great, eye-opening bit in David Stockman's book about Caspar Weinberger using a chart with cartoon characters representing various government offices to explain to Reagan why the defense budget needed to be even bigger.

rasheed wallace (rasheed wallace), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 13:32 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm looking forward to the one tax hike a week America's going to enjoy under Kerry. I wonder why he chose 325?

Markelby (Mark C), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 13:35 (twenty-two years ago)

To cop another page from Tom Freidman, if Bush had any real guts he would have paired the decision to go into Iraq with a gasoline tax to fund reconstruction efforts. (How quick would have public opinion changed then?)

Another accusation we always hear around election time is defense spending "cuts" which actually translate into slower rates of increase.

bnw (bnw), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 13:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Actually, "Kerry voted for higher taxes 325 times" in some cases also means that:
-The tax cuts he voted for were not as high as the republican cuts - which is "the same" as endorsing higher taxes.

On the gas tax - (the fact that it's a good idea notwithstanding) The bill in question was proposed (or at least endorsed) in the 90's by .. Mr. Dick Cheney. And it IS a good idea. It transfers the taxes from income to spending, while hopefully reducing demand for oil.

dave225 (Dave225), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 13:51 (twenty-two years ago)

The tax I'd really like to see Kerry get behind is the Tobin tax on foreign currency trades. Fat chance.

rasheed wallace (rasheed wallace), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 13:58 (twenty-two years ago)

I think he might be for it actually. He has said that he'd like to give tax cuts to corporations that stay incorporated in the U.S. and close the loopholes that allow them to be rewarded for moving offshore.

dave225 (Dave225), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 14:02 (twenty-two years ago)


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