Human Remains In Museums

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Do you think that human skeletons etc should be on display on museums or do you think it wrong to put them there?

MarkH (MarkH), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 07:29 (twenty-one years ago)

I must admit I'd never thought about this matter until I visited Carlisle Castle where there was a small museum where one of the exhibits was a human skull and femur from Bronze Age times. My then gf who was with me winced and said she really had an issue with human bones being put on display in this way. "Why?" I asked. "Because they're people", she replied.

It strikes me that the age of the human remains and how much they resemble an actual living person are factors here. We might not object to a skeleton but we might object to a person stuffed and mounted (arf!) by a taxidermist.

MarkH (MarkH), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 07:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, it's an interesting problem. I guess I can't think of what is to be gained by displaying these remains - we know what a skeleton looks like, and a fake would do just as well for displaying the clothes and jewellery. If it becomes about how much the skulls have changed through evolution things become more complicated - at what point do we consider them human enough to be entitled to the respect we generally accord humans?

Jeremy Bentham was stuffed, I believe. (with straw, I think)

But if we are going to return them somehow, how far should we go with that? Christian burials would seem out for pre-Christian remains. But I'll be damned if I'm helping to build a pyramid.

I tend to think that the body is an object, so if it was me in a museum I wouldn't mind. (it's fun to think of someone practicing ventriloquism to frighten kids, with their hand inside your head). But as most of my ancestors and most of my fellow 'alive-types' don't share that belief I tend to think their wishes should be respected, especially as some of them would have pretty strong views on bodily resurection (maybe they even killed people because they didn't think they would literally be taken into heaven at rapture).

Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 07:49 (twenty-one years ago)

J Bentham is indeed stuffed and embalmed and still on display at University College London.

I incline to the same view of bodies as (fascinating, wacky) objects (that contained life but now are just flesh & bone), but that's probably because of a long period of objectification through life drawing and anatomy studies.

The Hunterian Museum at the Royal College of Surgeons is amazing from this point of view: they have a hanged felon's flayed skin, the Irish Giant's skeleton alongside a dwarf lady from the same period's, dolphin spleens, syphilitic skulls, elephant cocks, pickled conjoined twin foetuses in jars, resin-filled horse lungs, the arterial vessels from a body stretched out and pinned on a great big board...one of those crazy Victorian places and not very acceptable to the average passerby.

Liz :x (Liz :x), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 08:00 (twenty-one years ago)

My gut reaction on this is, why should human bodies be treated any differently than animal bodies, or dinosaur bones, or whatever?

(More on this later, but it's hella busy at work today.)

Super-Masonic Black Hole (kate), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 08:21 (twenty-one years ago)

It seems to me that there is a world of difference between Jeremy Bentham and Truganini, even tho they lived around about the same time (Bentham's death pre-dated Truganini's by 44 years) which is one factor which might well be taken into account when deciding whether human remains should be on display (eg a Neolithic cave dweller certainly, the last WW1 veteran - certainly not!).

Bentham wanted to be preserved, Truganini was never asked.

Bentham belong to the society which was the oppressor, Truganini was of the oppressed.

Bentham's society is thriving to this day, Truganini's (the Tasmanians) are now extinct. Truganini is widely believed to be the last Tasmanian - this isn't in fact the case, although she was one of the last.

MarkH (MarkH), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 08:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Joe's mum curated the Hunterian collection for some time, and they were endlessly having requests for remains to be returned. I may be reporting this wrong, but she said that their policy used to be to just ignore or bury such requests. She also talked about Australian remains that she did end up returning... but (to open another kettle of worms) after she had had them radiocarbon dated, and found clear evidence of syphillitic bones in pre-Contact specimens. Which would indeed make for very interesting study and possible rewriting of certain historical assumptions. But no, the bones went back.

Super-Masonic Black Hole (kate), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 08:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, that's my reaction too. But there are obvious differences (which you would probably bring up if you had nothing to do like me). We tend to think that bodies are owned by the person who 'inhabits' the body (whatever that might mean), and that people have a right to do with their body what they wish (leaving aside abortion arguments). We also, in a liberal democracy believe in respecting people's beliefs about most things, with certain provisos. So if I believe that putting pork in my body makes me unclean, it seems fine to respect that. So, in a case where we know a person's wishes (regardless of whether we believe in the cosmology that leads them to such beliefs) those wishes should be respected. If I believe in bodily resurection then I think it's reasonable for me to expect that future generations don't (without damn good reason) disturb my grave in any way.

When we start using ancient bones in museums, we have no idea of what that person's wishes may have been, but I think we can respect the dignity and life that the body represents. We can guess that the body we are seeing was once loved by someone, replenished with food and water, protected by a parent etc. and I think that it is entirely natural of a human being to treat a body with respect. Canibalism is not just taboo for health grounds, the same with necrophelia. If the allied troops arriving at Auschwitz had played football with a skull from one of the piles I think most people would rightly be horrified.

So, I guess I just think that a human being, whilst not being represented by her remains, is somehow represented by it - after all we know most people's bodies more than we can know their souls. The human-ness for them dies at the moment of death, but for the rest of us the human-ness has it's residues for a long time. And speciest or not, that body is imbued with meaning for us in a way that an animal body is not. I think we owe a human, even if we have never met them, more than to be used as an educational tool.

Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 08:42 (twenty-one years ago)

um, x-post of some kind.

Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 08:43 (twenty-one years ago)

"whilst not being represented by her remains, is somehow represented by it" This makes no sense. replace the first 'represented' with 'identical'. Ta.

Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 08:45 (twenty-one years ago)

I think this argument is sort of wrapped up with Organ Donation too, I have no problem with anyone taking any of my organs when I'm dead cause I'm not going to have any use for 'em where I'm going but I would respect the wishes of someone who didn't want their organs donated for religious reasons.
However I wouldn't want pictures of dead me in the nude being toyed with, cause it might ruin my application for sainthood and I find the idea distressing.
In conclusion, if a person's culture forbids the removal of bones or organs and it screws in someway with their particular afterlife, I don't think it's right, but if you want to stare at my spine that's a-ok with me.
It's about respecting beliefs.
I guess there's also an argument for scientific gain from testing these bones or whatever, but I still think it's inherently wrong to impose your beliefs on someone else. But then again as a society don't we impose our laws on people with different beliefs? e.g. anarchists and property?
Turns out that wasn't a conclusion at all, huh.

Nellie (nellskies), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 08:55 (twenty-one years ago)

e.g. anarchists and property?

If property is theft, then owning a body...

Girolamo Savonarola, Tuesday, 31 August 2004 10:29 (twenty-one years ago)

dolphin spleens, syphilitic skulls, elephant cocks, pickled conjoined twin foetuses in jars, resin-filled horse lungs

"Fuck Off! We're the Judaean People's Front!"

Markelby (Mark C), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 12:24 (twenty-one years ago)

At the Museum of Science & Industry in Chicago, they have these body slices, from real bodies, so you can see a cross-section of the head or arm or whatever. And they still have hair on them. It's pretty disgusting. Sarah got totally overwhelmed and we had to go sit down for a while.

n/a (Nick A.), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 13:44 (twenty-one years ago)

So how come they're allowed to have sliced human beings in museums, but Damien Hirst isn't allowed to chop people and dice them and stick them in formaldehyde and plexiglass?

Super-Masonic Black Hole (kate), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 13:45 (twenty-one years ago)

MarkH - haven't you been to the museum at the Town Hall in Oxford? There's a skellington of a hanged man in there. I can't remember his name, but it gives me the creeps when I walk past it.

C J (C J), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 13:55 (twenty-one years ago)

There was (may well still be) the corpse of a British Redcoat soldier at Fort Ticonderoga, as a reminder of the American War Of Independence. I wonder if the British made as much of a fuss over him as has been made over the various corpses in the British Museum and/or Hunterian Collection.

(That said, I think Bog Man is one of the best bits of the BM. Not so sure about the mummies, though. I have heard two stories about mummies - one is that the desecration of the mummie rips the poor Egyptian out of the afterlife... and the other story is that the adulation and fame actually helps various Pharoahs and folks in the afterlife. So take yer pick.)

Super-Masonic Black Hole (kate), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 13:58 (twenty-one years ago)

I have been there, but I don't remember the hangman oddly enough.

The temptation to play hangman with him must be too great for bored museum curators.

"Right, take the skellington apart, it's your go!"

MarkH (MarkH), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 14:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Check out this exhibit. I saw it a month ago and it's definitely more bothersome that your typical museum skeleton.

dean? (deangulberry), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 15:39 (twenty-one years ago)

I saw John the Baptist's tooth at the Chicago Institute of Art. There was a cavity in it, maybe from all the wild honey.

andy, Tuesday, 31 August 2004 18:06 (twenty-one years ago)

There was an item on tonight's Channel Four News about a woman who succedeed in getting the Hunterian Museum to cremate the remains of one of her ancestors, who had been executed for murder around 200 years ago.

The possibly most-sacriligeous part was: after his death, his skeleton had been used as a teaching aid in the local hospital. When it was no longer needed for that, it was set up in the foyer connected to a mechanism which, when someone walked past, extended his arm to point to a donation box.

Somewhere, I've got a human fingerbone. I picked it out of a grave which was being washed away by the sea, on an unhabited island in western Scotland. I've sometimes thought as to whether I should keep it, and what I should do with it if I dispose of it.

(although I did once take it to my local pub, to go "Look! I can be goth, too! I keep human bones around the place!")

caitlin (caitlin), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 18:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Keeping a finger bone is setting yourself up for a creepy Derleth story. Someday you'll be asking your bedmate to scratch your back; they'll comply and then you'll realize that NO ONE IS THERE...

andy, Tuesday, 31 August 2004 19:04 (twenty-one years ago)

what is the name of the crazy anthropological museum in oxford?

amateur!!st, Tuesday, 31 August 2004 19:06 (twenty-one years ago)

One of the best bits, for me, about going to the British Museum as a kid was being 'introduced' to Ginger, an Egyptian farmer who was buried in the sand with some pots and somehow preserved entire, if very dessicated. I think it was the fact that he'd been given a name that made some kids in my class really hate that room.

cis (cis), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 20:05 (twenty-one years ago)

what is the name of the crazy anthropological museum in oxford?

Pitt Rivers. I've never been there tho.

the fact that he'd been given a name

not only that but he'd been given a *cat's* name! Why couldn't they've called him something that was actually Egyptian sounding, like Rameses or something!

MarkH (MarkH), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 06:53 (twenty-one years ago)

The possibly most-sacriligeous part was: after his death, his skeleton had been used as a teaching aid in the local hospital. When it was no longer needed for that, it was set up in the foyer connected to a mechanism which, when someone walked past, extended his arm to point to a donation box.

I heart the Hunterian Museum! He was the model for Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde, you know!

Super-Masonic Black Hole (kate), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 07:19 (twenty-one years ago)

I thought it rather odd that C4 should have this item on the news a few hours after I started this thread.

The possibly most-sacriligeous part was: after his death, his skeleton had been used as a teaching aid in the local hospital. When it was no longer needed for that, it was set up in the foyer connected to a mechanism which, when someone walked past, extended his arm to point to a donation box

not only that, but the local museum has his scalp, which has been tanned and the proceedings of the trial in a book bound in his skin.

MarkH (MarkH), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 07:35 (twenty-one years ago)

I just recently read a book on conjoined twins, which mentions in passing that the author badly wanted the Hunterian Museum to bury the Irish Giant's skeleton, because he himself said many times that he didn't want to be put on display after he was dead! He went to all kinds of trouble to prevent it happening, but of course once he was dead his body was immediately sold to the highest bidder.

Layna Andersen (Layna Andersen), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 08:15 (twenty-one years ago)

eighteen years pass...

The scale of this is pretty stunning:

https://www.propublica.org/article/repatriation-nagpra-museums-human-remains

"The remains of more than 110,000 Native American, Native Hawaiian and Alaska Natives’ ancestors are still held by museums, universities and federal agencies."

rob, Sunday, 29 January 2023 17:47 (three years ago)


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