If beauty is truth and truth beauty my life's a lie.

beauty actually affects me more in art or nature than it does in other human beings i think. but i know that's not what you're asking, so... hm. i did actually once meet a man who i thought was so beautiful that i had difficulty talking to him and always felt like a fool in his presence. i don't think this was caused by my wanting to sleep with him, more the fact that i felt inadequate next to him (the fact that he was uncommonly intelligent didn't help either!) i suppose it depends also what standards you are defining 'beauty' by. Kate if you mean that you are not beautiful by Vogue standards then you actually ARE beautiful, because Vogue beauty is in itself a lie - an unobtainable lie constructed with makeup and airbrushing to get women to spend money. Vogue Beauty = Fake People = Lie therefore Real People = beautiful = truth. in the end the old cliche is true that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I don't respond particularly to 'beauty' in fashion magazines or indeed porno ones - the necessary staginess of the posed moment goes against whatever idea I have of beauty - that it should be something fleeting maybe.

Well fuck you Tom.

I am neurotic/solipsistic enough to think about beauty and other physical qualities primarily in relation to how they make me feel, at least in concrete social situations. So short people make me feel like a giant, and tinyskinny people make me feel galumphingly huge. I spent a lot of my adolescence and early twenties with ugly-best-friend syndrome, and it's only looking back now that I realise my then best friend wasn't drop-dead beautiful. She did embody a certain (mid-late eighties indie girl) archetype though, and she effectively was beautiful because people treated her as if she unquestionably was.

I guess in the end I'm agnostic about beauty, whilst often feeling enormously wound up about its pursuit. There is a horrible schism between the kind of beauty myth that Katie talked about, and the ordinary everyday perception of the infinitely quirky way that real people look. I can't find the middle ground; I operate in one mode or the other with predictable consequences for self-esteem. And I wonder whether a high standard of airbrushed beauty pushes up the overall level, so that all the vanity stuff I do is actually just an attempt to end up passing for 'normal'.

Other beautiful people I might want to cadge a favour/pint off at some time: Sarah (num num), Ricky T (so cute), Lixi (rowr), Tim H (swoon), Mark S (beautXoR), Magnus (be still my beating hart), Nick D (dreamy), Carsmile Steve (va va voom), Stevie T (schwing), Madchen (yowsa), Katie G (hubba hubba), the Pinefox (tremble), etc. etc. What a fool I was to have overlooked you all.

I'm talking about the people that you consider beautiful. I'm talking about friends I've known who, although not necessarily conforming to Playboy Beauty or Vogue Beauty, were incredibly physically attractive, to the point where people treat them differently, sometimes in a negative way, ie the staring and the wolf calls, and sometimes in a "positive way" ie the waiting on hand and foot, endless attention, putting up with behaviour that would never have been tolerated in a less attractive way.

What Ellie says about, they are beautiful because people treat them as if they are so, that is what strikes the chord.

What Will says interests me, the idea that beauty makes a person a posession. This was what irritated me about the Brautigan book, even as he was trying to be all understanding and artistic about this beautiful woman, he still treated her as a posession in the way that he described her and his relationship with her. (Another common thread in recent discussions I've been having - the way that even so- called "artistic" and "intellectual" and "senstive" men use their aesthetic ideals as a lofty cover and justification for their sexist, objectifying love of arm candy.)

I wonder if I am guilty of the same thing in my treatment of beautiful men - is my urge to draw them, to write songs about them just as objectifying as my desire to sleep with them?

It's been my experience that the more attractive a person is the more likely they are to idealise 'true love' - does anyone else feel this or is it just me being cynical?

Highly attractive people view the world as their sexual smorgasboard, they have never had to work to be attractive to others, so they can AFFORD to maintain a highly idealised view of romantic love.

Fuckers. I hate them.

I didn't say that beautiful people did not have romantic troubles. I didn't say that they didn't have real feelings, either. What I meant is that people who are beautiful, when they have troubles, are far likely to be able to replace the troublesome partner with a new one from their endless smorgasboard. A non-dazzling person has far more insecurity that they won't find another partner, therefore more incentive to stay and try to make a non-perfect situation work.

Maybe that's not even about beauty, but about self esteem. Attractive people, or rather, those who are treated as if they are attractive tend to have... I wouldn't say better, but I'd say more inflated self esteems.

I'm not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing. The poor self esteem of the ugly leads then to stay in bad relationships. The overly inflated self esteem of the highly attractive person leads them to walk out of relationships which could need work.

I am only observing patterns that I have seen, not trying to make value judgements about attractive people and non-attractive people, before anyone leaps to any conclusions.

- on none other than Clara Bow ! how timely then ..but even though i should get back to work i just have to say, i sort of disagree with kate on same things, since life can be unbearable or heavenly regardless of what you look like. people like Clara Bow and Marilyn Monroe - surely the most superlative examples of what the masses considered beauty, etc. - are enough proof that attractive people can be ridden with just as much self-loathing and insecurity as anyone. I have the "Clara Bow: Running Wild" biography right in front of me here and it details how since she was the ultimate Hollywood Sex symbol of the 1920's, (if not of the whole period pre-MM)she devolved into mental illness for the last half of her life.

if you've been objectified your entire life and treated like nothing but a tool to be had, hunted out like a treasure for pleasure, or a symbol that, once procured, will give others status, how exactly can you develop a true sense of positive self-regard? how will you ever learn to trust other people and believe they like you for you, and not for your boobs? so many very attractive girls i've met and known about were total self-hating insecure promiscuous whores for one reason only: there lives were built around receiving approval and validation of their fragile self-esteem from men (therefore they'd let any take advantage of them), and their entire ego, their total sense of self was shaped by their looks and ability to attract men, since that's what they were taught (through peer messages) they were best at .. anyone who structures their identity based on their looks is like to fall apart, unless they die young. time will conquer all

of course there are also some things that kate said that i agree with but since i want to be a contrarian bitch this is all i guess

i was talking more in terms of traditional expectations, i guess, but even til this day, society has differing standards. say actors can keep acting long after they have wrinkled hands and look like shit, but actresses have an expiration date. rupert murdoch just fathered a baby at 70 with his new 33 year old wife. and so on. men didn't have to traditionally look that good, ugly men could still become powerful/wealthy/influential but ugly women were feared of becoming spinsters, or women who'd (shock!) never marry, since that was their "function" - marriage and childrearing, etc. and some were able to do all that quicker than others. ugly men can still be considered cool for whatever reason, and somehow can still occassionally attract the beautiful women (it especially helps if he has that wealth/power, which society defines for him as success), but how many ugly women do you know who are able to date, much less hold on to, beautiful men? (mabe this says more about what men and women look for in relationships) ugly men have even coined a ***derogatory *** phrase to describe lovely men, which has connotations of effeminacy: "pretty- boy." why isn't there an equivalent, a derogatory phrase used by ugly women to describe pretty girls?

sigh. i will never stop procrastinating, will i ?

oh and the whole gaze thing, it was just how i forget which freudian/film theorist, but he said that women are excluded from having the power of ability to "gaze" at men, the way all men gaze at women, and objectify them. women are excluded from becoming the subjects, but they involuntarily become the objects and then it's all related to this film stuff ..feminism

But my basic point was is that pretty much everyone I know of both genders bases a lot of their self-esteem on their pulling power or relationship success. Yes at the extremes of wealth and success (Hollywood, Murdoch) these rules of attraction get bent, but outside that rarefied arena people cop off with people of approximately similar attractiveness. The problem question is - do unattractive people want more attractive people and thus find themselves more unsatisfied, envious and frustrated?

well to be honest, in terms of day-to-day neuroses, it still seems to me that more girls i know are obsessed over how they look than most guys. and the fact that the "rules get bent" more for guys, at whatever extremes, again may point to the conclusion that men are given an easier time here. hollywod actors are reflective of cultural ideals and embodiements of mass expectations anyway, and there are many more average looking a-list actors (deniro, hoffman, etc) than actresses, and they usually get a much wider variety of roles to plas as well; the one prominent average looking actress who rose to legend status, davis, was typecast in shrewish/evil-women roles. so this all goes back to gaze again..people - average looking men, in particular - want to see and identify with the average looking guy who winds up playing an underworld czar/gangster, but they also only want to see women who are pretty in protagonist roles, since it's presumed that no one, not attractive men, not average-looking men, want to see unattractive women on the screen, they never become the object of the cinematic "gaze" since they aren't worthy enough.

note that relationship success and "pulling power" or attractiveness are two different factors in one's self-rregard. one can be ravishingly sexy - and know it - and yet still feel like an abject failure when it comes to forming long-lasting unions. fearful of men or women exploiting them, fearful that they're being objectified, overconcerned with maintaining their beauty in case the partner doesn't leave them. and if you're with someone of the same degree of attractiveness, there's always a worry about infidelity, since you know your hubby has "It" (back to clara bow!). it can get messy in a cesspool of possessiveness and mistrust, then..unless you're into voyeurism

in my own opinion, i don't think "ugly people" (feels awful just typing that) are notably more frustrated at not being able to draw attractive people, since like you said, people of the same attraction level pair off with each other, and so, i think they've been doing so all throughout their lives, and they've just come to expect it. they what sort of mates they will attract... unless some ugly duck of a boy grows up to become a swan, he pretty much isn't going to go through all of school reluctant to ask prettier girls out, and then get to college and overnight develop the courage. he isn't going to start beating himself up over not being able to pull hot chicks if he's known that he's fat/ugly since he was 10. the unattractive people generally have already formed a self-awareness of their unattractiveness relatively early in life (from what i've seen), and only look for partners more or less in "their league"...unless or until they become wealthy. (or powerful, etc. or they use pheromones ! or they just have something sexy about them even if they aren't trad good-looking) and they don't expect more, i don't think they're unhappier, because of there lowered expectations to start with. and if someone attractive shows interest in them, they usually ruin in due to disbelief or suspicion of ulterior motives (which may be the case.

of course i think all this is unfortunate, and that people who consider themselves "unattractive" should realize that they SHOULD take risks by asking those attractive people out. precisely BECAUSE since the attractive people, or at least the attractive people with depth and character (yes, there really are many of them, trust me) already *know* they can have anyone, and therefore look for qualities and traits ASIDE FROM JUST physical attractiveness, that specifically interest them. like intellect, or spontaneity, etc. basketweaving talent. this is how, say, i know this one quite unattractive tech major who gets to date these incredible looking girls,due to his eccentricity and outrageous sense of humor. because the girls already know they can have more attractive guys, if they wanted to, but they want a "real relationship," or they want "someone different" and they are tired of the one-dimensional attractive guys who are sorely lacking in personality.

So no, i think the uhappiness comes from the fact that way WAYYYY too many people deem themselves "unattractive" these days, in the first place, which then leads to all these inadequacies about self-image, or relationships (but not necessarily, 2 different factors), etc. The root of it all is that they think they're "unattractive" when they are really average, ordinary looking people, somewhere in the middle of the curve, with the majority of humanity. not in the top 20% or lowest 20% (with the lowest 15% surely being deformed people), but just average, in the middle. yet they consider themselves ugly, since they have been saturated with media images their entire lives of the top 20% - actors, models, etc. - that they keep comparing themselves to. normal people don't look like that, they look like you!! walk down a street in the city..how many people are just pleasantly enough average, fine looking people, and how many are drop-dead goodlooking? now turn on your tv - don't you see the radical difference, that everyone on air, from the shows to the commercials to the infomercials to the news anchors, are typically much higher up the scale than regular humanity down the street. we forget that the world of tv, that all these print ads, that it's an artificial world, that those people were chosen for a reason, since they appear flawless, but they're not representative at all. yet we measurure ourselves, unfairly, against this bell curve....

besides, true charisma and attractiveness

The syndrome that you describe in your former post was exactly what I was looking to discuss when I first posted this- women to whom beauty is a curse which robs them of their self esteem, rather than the usual sort of thing which is that people use their pulling power as basis of self esteem.

Obviously, with MM, there was more at work than just beauty, coming from a fucked up (lack of) family background, she had well discussed mental illness and problems that pre-dated her rise to fame. (This could go back into the famous thread... does fame fuck people up, or are fucked up people drawn to fame, as a replacement for love they cannot find in other life.) She was stereotyped as a bimbo, and despite repeated attempts to garner some sort of respect (her study of method acting in a quest for more serious roles) she died in that role.

Second topic: The Male Bimbo

Hey, I am not below this myself. I've had a couple. I loved the dichotomy of non-attractive but intelligent and successful (at the time) me with this unbelievably gorgeous arm candy. Unfortunately, men are just not as good at being arm candy as women are, they can't keep up the role for very long in the way that women can sustain it.

Does this mean that they have healthier self esteems that their egos will not allow them to be the lesser partner in an unequal relationship. Or does it mean that their self esteems are weaker, because they cannot stand the idea of dating a woman more successful than themself? I don't know.

I have been told repeatedly that I have a very male attitude towards sex and attraction, in terms of objectification. But my gaze is not The Female Gaze the way that the male's is The Male Gaze. Why? Is it because I have made myself the object? Fuck no. In the act/appear dichotomy, *I* am acting, through drawing the portrait or writing the song, and the man is appearing, being the subject of my gaze.

Of course a MAN would decide that it's impossible for a woman to be the posessor of the Gaze, their little fragile egos rebel against the idea that a woman could DO and BE of her own volition, she MUST be subverted to the male, no matter what the actual dynamic is. How silly. But the power lies, again and again, with the male, and they can say silly shit like this, get away with it and have people believe them.

Fuck that.

I have muses, they are invariably male, and it involves me creating, me being inspired, me ACTING, and the male muse simply appearing. Gender turnabout is fair play.

Oy vey, another thing to worry about. I won't get the boy because I'm not beautiful, I'll not get him because I'm INTELLECTUAL and COMPLICATED and NOT NORMAL. For fucks sake, why are mens egos so fragile that they are unable to handle complicated women?

but now for my own whinge whinge moan moan white-middle- class-woman sob story. i am what some people would term "attractive", but in a Playboy-bunny type way, due to some radical curviture. despite being pretty smart, i sometimes have problems with people taking me seriously. i can think of no other reason for this than the countours of my body. on rare occasions, even people i have conversed with about "deep" stuff will continue to patronise me.

because of this kind of treatment, i am very insecure about my intelligence. yeah, i know i'm not a dummy, but i always feel defensive and inadequate about it.

i have talked about this extensively with a friend of mine, and i think she was offended by me complaining about this. i would like to re-iterate the fact that i DON't think i have it harder than a woman who is deemed "unattractive" by society. however i would like to point out that this is a very real problem for me because i derive my self-esteem from my intelligence, not my body-image.

i don't appreciate it when some people assume that i "sleep around" because i desire male approval. why can't a woman have some harmless fun without being told "oh you suffer from a bad body-image". like crap i do. i have no issues with my body personally, i like my body, the only body-image issues i have are the fact that some people stereotype me because of my body shape.

all of this said, i sometimes treat "pretty" men quite appallingly. i think i have more of a patronising attitude towards straight, pretty men, because i stereotype them, i assume that they treat women like shit and so i aspire to do the same thing to them, i have one- niters with them and then endeavour to never see them again (difficult in a town as small as dunedin). so i am a hypocrite i guess, and the cycle continues. i develop more lasting and serious attractions to men and women i can respect on an "intellectual" level, they mightn't be conventionally good-looking at all.

finally, i would care to disagree with the person who suggested upthread that more "beautiful" people have idealised notions of Romantic Love. in my experience of people i know, i would say that peoples notions of romantic love are incredibly varied and don't depend on what they look like.

Beauty in itself does not prevent people from being taken seriously I shouldn't think. It does however when taken in conjunction with certain behavious patterns. perhaps beautiful people are doomed to dress down, behave asexually or whatever to break out of the stereotype set for them. I'm thought of as stupid because I am not beautiful. maybe all women are stupid, I just don't know. Male beauty at any rate, does not seem to be as important or focal as who cares what we think anyway? whinge whinge whinge grump.

On the other hand, I have a friend who, while reasonably intelligent, PLAYS the bimbo all the time, because she knows that it will get her attention and rewards. This irritates me beyond belief.

Do good-looking men have the same problems? I know there is a term "Himbo" but it doesn't have the same weight. I'm trying to think if I know any men who fear that they are not taken seriously because of their looks, and I can't think of any. I do, however, know a reasonably intelligent man who plays dumb because he is good-looking and lazy. I don't want to punch him, I want to sleep with him and take him home and take care of him. So perhaps *I* am secretly sexist.

1. Kate St. Claire = babe. The photo I own of me drunkenly kissing her outstretched hand exists FOR A REASON. ;-)

2. There's an exchange student who often studies in Reserves who could be on yer mag covers SO easy. Tall, thin, blonde, shapely, etc. I have absolutely no sense of what her personality is like, but she seems friendly enough. I often wonder how much she has to put up with during the day knowing the usual student types around UCI and their hormone levels. ;-)

3. The Sparks song "Funny Face" is required listening.

I don't want to know that reason.

I was looking for a completely different topic, and only found this thread by mistake. Not to pat myself on the back or anything, but what an interesting thread this was!

Why did you revive it, N, are you trying to drive me nuts?

I should hope so too! It's a pretty memorable title and you revived it yourself a month ago. I revived it because I'd just read that story about babies' reactions to attractive faces and it seemed the best place to put it.

Or at least, the interesting or good bits. All I remember is the shitty bits. This thread was too beautiful to remember, I guess.

oh those innocent days when Masonic Queen Kate could write of me thusly: I'm sorry, Vic. I assumed you were a woman because, well, you were talking sense. ;-)

-- kate (masonicboo...), November 22nd, 2001.

....and to think I actually put some time in my posts, too. Naturally, it was due to procastination