Buffy The Vampire Slayer Complete Series DVD Box Set

I think you just answered your own question!

Even though it's my all-time fave show, too, I can never go along with any of these theories, tho. All I can say is that it has the wittiest (and/or most slappeable, the two have become sorta interchangeable in my mind) dialogue I've ever seen in a TV show, and it can be fucking hilarious at times, and it really pushes the geeky comic book fan buttons, but also the weepy soap-ish girly buttons (I used to justify my love for the show with "it's the show the geeks and the cheerleaders can agree on!") Also, if you don't fall in love with Willow after a few episodes, you have no heart.

I'm searching the archives right now fer some of those theories I mentioned upthread.

xpost preach on!

Why I Love Buffy
by Nabisco Sunshine
Okay. Let’s pretend for a second that there are two distinct impulses in the use of narrative, and that the history of Western civilization has in some sense been all about the movement from one to the other. The first impulse is that of myth and allegory, the impulse we find in religious stories and great epics. The second impulse is toward verisimilitude and plausibility, the impulse we find in hour-long cop dramas. Obviously the big transition has been from the former to the latter.

Which makes sense, because they’re suited to completely different types of lives. The life of the average Western person used to be a small and constrained thing: it contained very little information and a fixed number of experiences with little hope of change. Myth, epic, and allegory are perfect for this, because what’s coded into them are really powerful and adaptable ways of imagining the world in its broadest sense. The life of the average Western person now, though, is filled with information and opportunities for different kinds of experience. The new model of verisimilitude is uniquely suited to this, because what it offers are windows into portions of the world we might find or hope to find ourselves interacting with.

Except sometimes I think this new model only reflects the increasing narcissism of Western people, an overwhelming concern with the possible realities of our own lives at the expense of any thought about what meaningful things are actually happening within them. People like to praise narratives by saying they “ring true,” that they capture something real about what we do or might experience. But narrative shouldn’t exist only as a way of crystallizing or organizing reality, as a way of showing us what exists and giving us insight into how we might deal with that. It can do something more: it can look beneath reality. Instead of cataloging what happens and how it works, narrative can try to tell us something more universal about why.

One funny thing about Buffy is that while its form is all about the myth impulse, its content is actually all about a negotiation between the two. “Buffy” is the teenaged girl who longs, at first, to live in the world of verisimilitude; “the Vampire Slayer” is the girl who exists on the level of myth and allegory. The show sets itself up as myth and allegory, but what it really is is an extended thought experiment, one in which particular bits of the world of verisimilitude are dipped into the world of allegory to see what we might find out about them.

For example, a shocking number of Buffy episodes are based on the same premise: something happens that makes a given character behave differently. One of my favorite instances of this is an episode in which Xander, to all appearances, has his life taken over by an unexpectedly efficient and much better groomed Evil Xander. It’s eventually revealed, though, that there’s no “Evil” Xander: the two we’ve been seeing constitute different aspects of his identity, one bumbling and vulnerable and the other confident and capable. Episodes like this one—of which there are a whole awful lot—function as genre plots, yes, but more fundamentally as thought processes: the fantasy elements of the show allow Whedon to conduct endless lab experiments on the characters, exposing them not through tired constructions of the “real” but by casting them, one by one, into different parts of the myth impulse.

And the thing about myth is that everything is invested with great meaning. What Buffy’s negotiation of the line between myth and “reality” allows it to do is to effortlessly milk or not-milk that meaning. This is why I say it can “strike directly” at everything good about narrative—because it’s found this shortcut whereby it can dispense with the more meaningless dramas of the real and linger on, actually inflate, the bits that say something universal. This is half of how allegory works: by openly admitting that it’s a construction, that it sits on a stage, it can make every movement and event function not as the everyday “complexity” of a human being, but as some meaningful part of the complexity of something much bigger.

Which means shit can get dramatic on like near-religious levels.

This is where we come to the musical, which does everything I’m talking about above in one episode. Let’s not get misled: the brilliance of the thing lies not in anything it does for the form of the musical itself. Forget about that. What’s brilliant about it is how the episode adopts exactly the right form to accomplish what it wants to accomplish, which is to crystallize and draw out the overarching conflicts of each character at that particular moment. In what generic form are people allowed to stand on soapboxes and pour out the one thing that matters to them at the moment? The musical. So: insert musical demon. Dip the characters into another thought experiment: if this were a musical, what would they sing? This is why it’s important that Gellar doesn’t sing well: if she sang well this would be actual myth. What we get instead is the world’s biggest ass-kicker singing in a quavering voice the following killer of a Romantic plot scenario: (a) she sacrificed herself sort of to save the world but mostly to save a sister who wasn’t even real, (b) she believes she went to heaven, (c) her friends pulled her back not just into a life of death and duty but into a still-buried coffin, (d) she now has the additional responsibility of never letting them know that they did this, and (e) the whole endeavor is beginning to seem pointless and crushing.

None of which even compares to the soundless slow-mo shot of Buffy leaping from the tower in that initial sacrifice. Buffy is not dramatic by default; it’s dramatic when it matters. It means something when Buffy’s mother dies: apart from maybe the father on “Good Times” I’ve never seen a television character’s death treated so humanly. And because of that it matters doubly when Dawn’s zombie-resurrection of their mother taps at the door and their positions reverse: when Buffy momentarily gives up and reaches for the knob, and that sight makes Dawn call the whole thing off. A lot of this show now is about when and how people will give up.

Also it’s funny. How could it not be? It’s funny on the level of dialogue, yes, but so are a lot of shows. It’s funny on the level of self-referential and character-referential jokes, which isn’t quite as common, but that’s still not it. What allows it to be funny is precisely the way it’s so constructed. Those experiments in shifting characters, for instance, are bound to be amusing, and in surprising ways: witness the episode wherein Jonathan creates an alternate universe wherein he is basically the coolest thing ever, an episode that simply begins in this universe, with no explanation (we’ve barely even seen Jonathan before, unless we recall the episode wherein he gave Buffy an award for their graduating class having “the lowest mortality rate in Sunnydale High history”). Or witness the episode in which the whole gang, suddenly amnesiac, try to reconstruct their identities from the available evidence—a hilarious episode that nonetheless ends with Tara’s discovery that Willow has just done one of the most childish and despicable things I have ever seen a major character on a television show do.

Yes, it helps if you can laugh at the level of the line as well. It helps if you can laugh, in “Hush,” when the characters, rendered mute, meet to compare notes on why: you have to laugh at Giles’s childish drawings of demons ripping people’s hearts out, or the fact that Buffy’s pantomime for staking is interpreted as masturbatory. (Note to Buffy-fans: I laughed more at the ridiculously pleased expression on Riley’s face when he smashed everything but the box Buffy was actually pointing at.)

This is the part where I run out of steam and worry that all of the above was dry unconvincing wank that doesn’t actually make sense.

-- nabisco (--...), March 19th, 2003.

Also, Gareth once said that Xander was his role model!

I sometimes wonder if Donnie Darko was partly modelled on Buffy. The "integration" you talk about feels very reminiscent to me.

£50 (and 97p) on amazon at the moment. 35p an episode.

I got this for xmas and we're wrapping up Season 7 this week. I was thinking last night about one of the problems I have with Season 7 (at least so far): returning to the lighter zingy dynamic of S3-5 after the torture everyone put each other through in S6 feels cheap.

everyone hated that entire season when it ran anyway, but people were always being overly critical of the show after season 3.

I'll definitely defend 6 against its detractors, but 7 just feels too fluffy to me.

My favorite Buffy moment was when Willow went nuts.

I think 3-5 were some of the best stuff ever put on television, and although I'm a little loathe to include 6 in that set because it indulges in a higher degree of melodrama, I really really appreciated 6. I think it captured early 20s uncertainty (and all its attendant melodrama) with the same clarity S3-4 had about high school/college.

I only have 1 and 4, and I've been re-watching 4 lately and skipping over half the episodes for being generally dumb or unpleasant (although sometimes my roommates won't let me). I remember 5 being really good.

Yeah I have to admit--I made that big statement bout 3-5 but while rewatching 4 there were a couple of episodes that I didn't really enjoy, and I didn't remember the Adam plot taking so long to resolve.

7 just feels choppy and underdone

yeah, 7 had one great set-up episode for a villain who turned out to be pretty ineffectual. the Mayor talked all the time too but he was a lot more fun to watch than (usually) Buffy being bitchier than usual.

Also the "is Giles dead no he's just been acting weird for the last 4 episodes" thing was incredibly stupid.

why pay £50 for this when you could just become an ilx mod

we don't let just anybody into the scooby gang

5 = my favorite; kinda feels like the core of what the show turns out to be in the end; if it had really ended here it would have been the best ending of any television show I've ever watched

4 = totally understand why people have some issues with this one, arc-wise, but I think it's ridiculously good -- a peak of funniness, only show I've ever seen handle a high-school-to-college transition well (leave alone kinda getting better) . . . I mean, cave-Buffy and the Spike impotence jokes alone, plus the beginnings of the whole male-fecklessness thing that extends onward for a while = A+

6 = there are some pretty big issues 2/3 of the way through, is the thing -- the first third is great, yeah, but after a while there are some really corny magic-as-drugs things going on, especially around Amy, complete with horrible effects and sudden new-network weepy music-montage endings . . . it's good but there's some faltering in there, and given that there hadn't been any real "faltering" since season 2 started, that's kinda something

7 = honestly, wtf happened here? I think being cognizant of it as a definite ending -- and having already used up a super-dramatic ending that now had to be topped -- threw everyone off. Shit just gets repetitive to the point where Andrew starts feeling like the bright spot in it all. Endless speechifying about Slayer duties, and how This Is the Big One, Spike reduced to this boring martyred wreck . . . I'm sure if I watched this again I'd find more to like in it, but it was really not a good place to go out. Hell, the end of Angel topped this by about a million times.

which season featured Willow ripping the skin off of ppl, because that scene was srsly the best thing they'd done since bumping off Niles' love interest

Thanks a lot, now I'm imagining a Buffy/Frasier crossover episode.

That's the end of season 6, Dan, with Evil Willow aka Darth Rosenberg

and yeah i'm trying to convince a buffy-phobe to watch the show and might tell her to watch 2-5 and proceed outside that zone at her own risk

That's roughly how I've pitched it to people -- either that or start with college and then work back to high school. I don't know that there's any "risk" involved -- I mean, if you make it from 2-5 and still care, you are definitely going to be interested in 6, can surely enjoy 1 (if only to have a few jokes and back-stories filled in), and will probably want to see 7 just to finish things off, right?

("start with college and then work back to high school" = watch 4 + 5 then double back however you want = really bad advice in terms of getting referential jokes, but if you think someone's not going to watch very much of it, 4 + 5 seems like the shortest way to get a really and satisfying arc)

if you make it from 2-5 and still care, you are definitely going to be interested in 6, can surely enjoy 1 (if only to have a few jokes and back-stories filled in), and will probably want to see 7 just to finish things off, right?

I just know people who tell me that 6 ruined the show for them ("they all turned emo!" where i read emo as "overwrought humans")and 7 was a whimper after the moving and terrific ending of 5. As you say I think the quality of the end of 5 is indisputable so I guess my logic is why risk being unhappy with the ending of the show by venturing beyond it if you're satisfied with the ending?

btw I say all this still having not completed season 7!!

just based on rep etc

I think that Buffy fans need to embrace the awesomeness of having the best character rip the skin off of another character.

GF and I are haggling over what show to watch next. I'm pushing for Veronica Mars, which I only know by reputation, but she's like "I just sat through 8 years of real high school & college drama and then you made me watch 7 more and now you want more??"

She may have a point.

yes

Make her watch "Torchwood" instead.

We have already watched all of Torchwood!

Oh. Well then I can't help you.

btw Willow flaying Warren was the best part of s6 u rite

What was this mysterious Buffy box sets controversial thing that happened on ILX?

willow is a good character but i don't think alyson hannigan really pulled off being evil.

Problem with season 7 as I understand it is that Whedon took his hand off the Buffy rudder (to work on Firefly) until the last few episodes. Dialogue isn't as snappy, endless pep-rally speeches are really stoopid, fight scenes not blocked out or edited well.

i think there is also a problem with season 7 where it wanted "the first evil" to be this really resonant, potent, scary thing, but the show had never really been invested in metaphysics before and i get the sense that kind of thing is not whedon's bag, so it ended up seeming sort of substanceless. and there are a stretch of episodes in the middle of season 7 where the exact same thing happens in each one.

yeah we're halfway and my gf was like "so we'll finish it tomorrow night right?"

"there are 12 episodes left"

"WHAT"

hoos you and your gf should watch battlestar galactica next

I have also lobbied for this but she will not fuck w/it. I'll keep trying though.

I can vouch for first 2 seasons of V. Mars. Also I'm working my way through Weeds and really enjoying it. (First 2 seasons of that are available on Netflix VOD if you're a member there.)

lol make her watch Babylon 5, and all the while say "well it could have been 'Battlestar Galactica' but you said no"

i didn't watch battlestar galactica for a long time because i assumed it wouldn't be my kind of thing, but it's really good and crazy suspenseful.

We are currently beginning S3 of MACGYVER btw, this was her choice of television show for us to work our way through completely omgasrodi gjASfnvfn
S}

lol this means you can make her watch "Manimal", "Misfits of Science" and "Automan"

and MacGyver 2, aka Stargate

Yeah we got up to S5 on that before she lost interest when Jackson became an Ascended Being or whatever whatever

lol sorry dudes didn't mean to turn this into Recommend HOOS A TV Show Thread

I wish I could recommend Angel in anything like good conscience, but basically when you are done watching Buffy you probably already know damn well whether you feel like trying Angel or not. (Also I don't think it's regularly good until way toward the end, possibly.)

i tried to start watching angel this year. i didn't hate it but i stopped watching at some point in the second/third season. cordy!

Wait, MAX HEADROOM

the last maybe four episodes of Angel make the whole slog worth it

Wait, Horseshoe, did you even get to see Young Pete Campbell out for Vengeance?

Toward-the-end Angel = Harmony, puppets, big uptick in awesomeness.

I've currently been roped into watching How I Met Your Mother on DVD, which -- I guess via Jason Segel and Alyson Hannigan -- is totally packed with Buffyverse + Freaks and Geeks actors

that actor who plays pete campbell creeps me out. i never got to his part on Angel, no.

> willow is a good character but i don't think alyson hannigan really pulled off being evil.

i liked the episode when she was good willow pretending to the alternate universe bad willow. kept spoiling the illusion by waving at buffy.

walked home with the dvds digging into my back remembering character after character. missed the 3 nerds and the werewolf guy completely. forgot drusilla's name... lots of catching up to do.

not sure they showed the whole of angel over here.

This seems like as good a place as any to mention that Alyson Hannigan's wikipedia entry contains the most "HI! I'M ALYSON HANNIGAN AND WELCOME TO MY WIKIPEDIA PAGE!" picture in the universe:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alyson_Hannigan

The first couple of seasons of Angel are mediocre to above average, but it picks up a bit in later season 2 and 3. I think seasons 4 and 5 are quite good though (and are far superior to something like Buffy S4 or S7). Also there are some darker themes and aspects of Angel that are done better than in Buffy, since the whole "friends forever!" thing isn't always in your face.

The Vincent Kartheiser thing annoyed a lot of people, but I was willing to forgive it - but I suppose it might have been because the whole plot was an X-men rip. Or because he appealed to my inner asshole teenager. But the actor is really good at being creepy and kind of sociopathic. (For an awful, bizarre F&G/Angel crossover, look up this Andy Garcia movie "The Unsaid")

HIMYM is way way better than most people would think it is, since it has this terrible Friends-redux image. Just ignore Ted's whining and everything else is really great.

4 + 5 seems like the shortest way to get a really and satisfying arc

When I started watching, the advice was "Go straight to season 3 then backfill (which, er, I never did)". I would be wary of starting with 4 just because Adam is a terrible terrible boss, and the defeat of him did seem to just be repeating "friends forever" over and over.

Skipping straight to Season 3 seems like a good way to prove to someone that Buffy's good stuff, but a lame way to actually introduce them to the show.

Season 1's a low-budge mess as the show tries to find an audience, its feet, and the characters' voices. All worth it to feel things coming together in the back half of Season 2, and the Season 2 finale is the payoff.

I've been watching this series from beginning to end for roughly the last year. I can't really imagine watching it any other way.

that actor who plays pete campbell creeps me out.

He had a beard at the Golden Globes and it was honestly one of the creepiest things I've ever seen in my life. He is sinister enough without a BEARD, for heaven's sake.

hey HOOS if you want any more recommendations I've been watching Slings and Arrows lately and its great fun and doesn't involve any high school/college drama.

You could also try that terrible Robin Hood series they put on BBC America!